Jon and Val an item in WoW?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Can the king/queen of the week please stand up and legitimise him again?

Important lords/ladies from Robb's kingdom signed the decree. Once legitimised it can't be undone.

[liknar]

Hypothetically If I am a lord of the realm and I have a bastard son who is older and i like better than my true born children. I can legitimize him on my death bed by declaring that i'm the king of Humpty Dumpty wall, and he is no longer a bastard. Would the King in KL recognize that I had the right to do that.

If Robb is never a King in the eyes of Stannis than any decree he signed to that effect is void. B/c he didn't have the right of Kings.

Much the same way Stannis was trying to do something extremely clever in Jon's legitimization. Jon claim would have been tied to Stannis succeeding.

The same as Ramsey's clam is tied to Cersie brood being legitament.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Stannis is now the ultimate judge on what Robb did? If Stannis doesn't approve then he wasn't king?

You do get that if the North rides to Jon and declares him King in the North they accept that Jon is a Stark and they say the Iron Throne can shove it, right? They are playing games right now until their hostages come back, then the 'farce' is over. Hence the moving in on the Boltons (who are approved by IT!), killing Freys to make pies out of them, etc.? That's shove it right there.

Stannis seems to think he can just waltz in at the Wall and demand castles too, supposedly because he is the 'rightful' King. But Stannis doesn't even have any land! He's lost Dragonstone and Storm's End (or will soon). Compare to Robb's the North, Trident and Riverlands (hope I got them right). The only reason the Watch is playing along with Stannis is because they're too weak to fight the few hundred (!) men that Stannis has. Otherwise he could shove it, too, so to speak.

If the North gets a hold of Winterfell (what the North part of Stannis' little army has agreed to conquer) then it might even be game over for Stannis and for the IT.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Robb was a king if his people said and thought he was a king. And they clearly did. What people outside the north thinks is irrelevant to them and I get the feeling it always has been and always will be.

[Phonzadellika]

I’ve heard this theory ad nauseam. Jon’s death/revival will release him from his vows. We will have to see if it actually holds.

I would not forgive Jon if he'll take death as an excuse to abandon his vows. I think Val is a test of sorts to Jon, but nothing else.

Jon may not have a choice. My guess is that they do a quick election of a new Lord Commander and that Jon is booted out after he turns up alive. 2 kings is 1 king too many.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I'm shocked that anybody would blame Jon for leaving an organization that tried to kill him. People always say, well not ALL of them were involved. I find it incredibly naive to think he should honor some vow sworn to guys he can't be sure he can trust. He won't ever be sure of who or how many people were involved. He'll never feel safe there, not ever. Staying at the Wall isn't healthy, it doesn't matter what vows he swore to. I imagine them trying to kill him was their way of telling him they didn't want him around anymore. Getting to be with Val is a poor consolation prize for having everybody you know (In Jon's mind at least) turn against you.

[Talking Hodor]

I see this happening in two ways - either the NW gets annihilated fighting amongst themselves and wildlings and Stannis' men, or they all get overrung by wights, thereby leaving only Jon and Sam remaining of the NW. Boom, instant release from vows.

Or more likely, Robb's will will legitimize Jon, 50 Northerners will volunteer for the NW to replace him, thereby releasing him to become Jon Stark, first of his name, King in the North, and Stannis can suck it.

Then, once Sansa, Arya, Rickon, and possibly even Bran turn up again, he'll abdicate for whichever one has the better claim, I'm guessing Bran Stark, 300th of his name, the Stallion who mounts Hodor. Then he'll become Jon Targaryen (I see Howland Reed involved in this family reunion), king of everything on earth, and Daenerys can suck it.

Oh, and in the meantime, he's gonna kidnap Val, wildling style, and add King Beyond the Wall to his list of many titles, and Mance and Tormund can suck it.

[jakmanuk]

I'm a little mixed on whether Martin will go this route or not. I do think that in TWOW, we will see some kind of break between Jon and the Watch that's lasting. Whether that's a technical breaking of his vows, a personal choice to discard his identity as Lord Commander Snow, or the destruction of the Watch itself, I'm still mixed on. Jon and Val are a tad more difficult to suss out. I think they make quite a pair, but I'm not really convinced that hooking up with Val is something that's in the cards for Jon. He thinks she's beautiful and would make a good wife, but neither of them seem to hold much passion for the other. If Jon hasn't thrown himself in a fit of passion at her yet, it's difficult to see him doing it in the future unless the match manages to give him some advantage he needs. Considering all of the Wildling chieftains have already sworn personal allegiance to him, I don't really see anything she can give him.

The same thing was probably said with Jaime and Brienne but look at them now

[Manderly's Horse]

This is the conflict i have been thinking will test Jon Snow... first he was offered to be legitimized as Lord Jon Stark of Winterfell by Stannis and refused because of his vows, but if Robb's will as made public will he be able to refuse the title of "King of the North"?

But then what if R+L=J is true and he finds out he is in line to sit the Iron Throne? Everything he has ever known about himself will have been a lie, but I think Jon will honor his vows til the end...

Why does everyone assume that R+L=J give Jon a claim to the Iron Throne? Even it's true Jon is still a bastard! Did Rhaegar ever marry Lyanna? Did I miss something?

[WhitewolfStark]

Why does everyone assume that R+L=J give Jon a claim to the Iron Throne? Even it's true Jon is still a bastard! Did Rhaegar ever marry Lyanna? Did I miss something?

It's assumed because the KG stayed at the TOJ instead of going to Dragonstone.

That's the fantasy trope of the hidden prince played straight and is one of my issues with certain interpretations of R+L=J, which would be out of character for GRRM as a writer (playing a trope straight), who instead goes for the ironic version of the trope, rather than the straight trope itself.

Personally, I think if someone thinks Lyanna ran away (14/15 year old girl that she was, recall) from one marriage, I don't think she would've been so eager to jump into another. If she did run away to escape one marriage, why would she be so eager to jump into another? Love? Well to paraphrase her: "Love is sweet but it doesn't change a [person]'s nature". While I agree that Rhaegar probably had the better nature to attract her (brooding melancholic type is always a hit with teenage girls), why does she need to marry him? So that she can say she's not a whore? People would assume that anyway, and Lyanna marks me as one of the type of people to care very little what others think of her. So what does she get out of this second marriage? What's there to gain from it? She's not in it for the political games involved with being Queen. And if she's running away she's definitely not in it for being tied down--or else why run away at all? If she ran away for love, I don't see why she would have to get married at all. I mean at that point she's throwing away everything everyone else typically holds of value in a political marriage, why would she want a marriage? The "right thing to do"? Lyanna isn't Ned or Robb in terms of personality, and besides if she were, she'd then be going through with her betrothal with Robert because "that would be the right thing to do".

Lyanna seems the type that if she burns her bridges on the idea of marriage then that's that, she's done with it. If Lyanna ran away to escape one marriage, it would be more in line that she swore off marriage entirely as that's a decision more in line with a woman who is looking for "freedom" from the traditional roles her father and betrothed are forcing upon her, and is much more the kind of decision a 14/15 year old would make (I don't like this so fuck it all!).

Entering into supposition territory:

My interpretation of Lyanna is that she was a slightly more repressed version of Arya. The vision we get of young Arya from ADWD has Bran confusing whom we can take as Lyanna & Benjen for Arya and himself--which I think is rather apt. Add to it that Ned compares Arya to her aunt a lot not only in looks but personality as well, (only Ned's more of an indulgent parent than Rickard probably was, most likely learning a lesson by NOT doing what dear old dad did). And from that I think we can come to a likely conclusion that while Love may be in the cards for Lyanna, I highly doubt she would be the kind of person to tolerate being chained for forever like she would in a marriage--she has wolf's blood after all.

Leaving supposition territory:

Why would Rhaegar even need to marry her? All he would desire for a child from her is a Visenya (a Xena-like persona)--which if he caught Lyanna as the KOTLT--then he likely thought that Lyanna had it in her to provide him with a Visenya (as opposed to Elia who more easily has it in her to provide a Rhaenys, which she did) to give him his third head of the dragon and complement his Aegon who is his sole focus. (That's one awkward thing I'd imagine if ever there was a Jon & Rhaegar meeting: "So yeah... you were supposed to be a girl...") There doesn't need to be any marriage for him to get his Visenya. She's not going to be ruling anyone--that's his son Aegon's job by his book. So why marry? The only three reasons from his end would either be love, preventing a new line of Blackfyres, or it being "right thing to do", and of the three only the argument for "love" really sounds plausible to me. The right thing to do is something a Ned or Robb Stark would pull. And the "prevent a new line of Blackfyres" from rising isn't applicable because Rhaegar "knows" it's going to be a girl. But even if he did propose it for love, why would this wild wolf blooded Stark woman that everyone considers Lyanna to be agree to be tied down in that situation, if that's what she's escaping? And if he loves her, i don't see him forcing her to marry him if she doesn't want to.

We still have some gaps to fill in with the story--and it's something I look forward to see being revealed as well as seeing the trope of the "secret royal love" being given a good old ironic twist by GRRM.

...

As for the KG... so with Jon being a male Targ bastard, after Aegon dies, he's the next in Rhaegar's line to inherit before Rhaenys would IIRC the rules set after the Dance. So there doesn't need to be a marriage there anyway if he's a male. But considering Rhaegar was trying for a Visenya, who by all accounts doesn't need to be a Princess (all she needs to be is of Targ blood ), but instead a helpful warrior sister--why the need for a marriage? Visenya is just a powerful ally, not the main focus of Rhaegar's quest to fill the prophesy--what does it matter if she's legitimate or bastard born? And the Great Bastard of Bloodraven provides a counterexample to the Blackfyre worry, as he helped his half-brother keep the throne.

So that's one interpretation of the R+L=J argument I don't quite agree with (the secret marriage). I don't see how marriage was required to help achieve what either would have theoretically wanted from the relationship. Nor do I see it as necessary prerequisite for the KG to remain at the TOJ IIRC the post-dance interitance laws correctly.

[siknes]

The NW is at its end, second time the LC is attacked by his own men. If the NW is no more-- than Jon isn't forsaking his vows.

We know the wall has to be breached or whatever to let the Others/NK/and their Wight arm through. Final battle at the Trident, as dreamt by Dany.

I always thought Val would eventually be Jon's girl/wife/Queen, but there is a lot of similarities/descriptions of her and the female Other that seduced the NK. From the show it seems the NK has been waiting, reloading his numbers.

Bottom line which one is going to let out Ghost/Jon-- Mel or Val? Which ever one it is will say, "Come quick, Jon Snow, there isn't much time. They're coming."

I can totally see Jon becoming the new NK and betraying the Others same as with Mance. He guards the North with wife Val and makes sure the Others never return.

[Arkash]

I've always liked the relationship Jon has with Mel and Val in Dance. One is fire, one is ice. I enjoy Val as a potential love-interest for Jon. I dont know at out how this will turn out, but I really hope Val gets an extended role in the books.

But since the show had not bothered cast her so far, it seems unlikely.

[Manderly's Horse]

We still might meet Val this week when Jon pays Mance a visit.

[koststerg]

When Jon comes back he will probably look a little dead and we know that Val absolutly hates anything that seems to have risen from the dead (and for good reason). When Jon returns his wilding friends will be scared of him and his NW friends will be away, so even if he wants to keep his vows, all the others will just want him to remain dead. His only option is to run away from the Wall (which if a good thing because the Wall will fall soon).

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

We don't know for sure that Val hasn't been cast. All we know is there hasn't been an announcement. Truth is they could have an actress in mind already so therefore don't need to send out a casting notice. You can't infer things about the books based on what happens on the show.

[newbieone]

Jon may keep his vows and neither marry nor have a crown or land even despite being recognized for his royal blood, so any kingship arc would be satisfied, I guess. Anyway, I'm not even sure he's alive, but I'm sure he'd keep his vows.

[Lord Jon Elurra]

to me it´s pretty clear that if Val is not in the show she is not important

[John Hulboy]

I agree if Val isn't in show she isn't important.val is hot but when she said that stuff about shireen Jon was turned off in the end Jon will have his queen and his paramour

[LadyLiz]

I think at this point it is unlikely that Jon would be romantically linked with Val or Mel. I believe he will be surrounded by powerful women including them but I think his romantic interests ended with Ygritte. He hears "you know nothing Jon Snow" over and over in his POVs and I think when he comes back he will be more dedicated to what he perceives as his duty (not necessarily the nights watch) to focus on romance.

[Maria26]

At this point I find it very unlikely for Jon to have anything "romantically speaking" with either Mel or Val. Plus I wouldn't rule Daenerys has being one of the strong women in Jon's life at some point (romantically or not). They will meet and their paths are intertwined (whether it is through Rhaegar or the simple fact that they are Ice and Fire).