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  2. Greyjoys - and possibly the Others (if the books ever finish). But from what of the writing is released, the book Greyjoys suffered the most compared to their onscreen counterparts. Think about it - the other houses were reasonably accurately represented. Greedy Lannisters. Stoic Starks. Righteous Targs. Broken Baratheons. Even the separatist Sandsnakes and pointlessly proud Dornish had some representation on screen. But the warmongering Greyjoys were totally muted, castrated even, in the visual version of this tale. Euron was a pathetic interpretation of his book self and Victarion was dismissed entirely. Sure, the show paid some creedence to Asha (Yara) and Theon but I doubt the books would end with Bran telling dick-less he was a good man. The Greyjoys were the most muted, by far.
  3. S. D

    Marriage in Westeros

    Is almost every marriage in Westeros unhealthy by our 21'st century, modern standards? Consider: 1. Wives are pledged to obey their husbands That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again. -AGOT, Catelyn II Ned Stark has the power to make Catelyn acquiesce to an order of his; as seen she is pledged to obey him, and when she raised the subject of Jon Snow's origins she was brutally shut down and the entire household was cowed to the point where no one dared speak Ashara Dayne's name ever again. Let's look at one of the powerful women in the series, Alysanne: Her Grace had no power to enact laws, issue decrees, make proclamations, or pass sentences. It is a mistake to speak of her as we might speak of the Conqueror’s queens, Rhaenys and Visenya. The young queen did, however, wield enormous influence over King Jaehaerys, and when she spoke, he listened… - Fire and Blood Losing dragons was a huge drop in the autonomy and agency of the Targaryen women. As we can see, even Alysanne had no legal power of her own. Her power comes from her husband listening to her. This is also true of Catelyn, Ned listens to her and respects her and she has power due to that. See also the issues that troubled Dowager Queen Alyssa Velaryon during her year-long reign as regent for her son Jaehaerys. 2. Husbands are allowed to hit their wives. Rhaegar Frey: Marriage will soften her, I have no doubt. A firm hand and a quiet word. - ADWD, Davos II The right of a husband to chastise an erring wife was well established in the Seven Kingdoms and the doctrines of the Faith of the Seven. - Fire and Blood. Also further illustrating that the husband has authority over his wife. 3. There is no concept of marital rape, and the wife has no sexual autonomy. "I'd waited long enough. I hated watching Robert stumble to your bed every night, always wondering if maybe this night he'd decide to claim his rights as husband." -ASOS, Jaime IX Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. - AFFC, Cersei VII She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs. - AFFC, Cersei VII Queen Naerys begged Aegon IV to allow her to be abstinent and he refused, and that was that. - The World of Ice and Fire. He wondered what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now. Flinch away, most likely. Or be brave and suffer through it, as was her duty. She is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine. If he told her that he wished to have her maidenhead tonight, she would suffer that dutifully as well, and weep no more than she had to. - ASOS, Tyrion VIII As these passages show, a husband has a right to sex with his wife even if she is unwilling. Marriage in Westeros means women are institutionally vulnerable to coercion. 4. Women are not allowed to have sex before marriage or commit adultery, while men are. The High Sparrow has Cersei punished for having sex outside of marriage, but does not do the same to any man. Bastards are seen as par for the course in Westeros, meanwhile: Lysa is seen as damaged goods for having slept with Petyr. Lollys for her gang rape has be married off to Bronn, a lowly sellsword. Even Delena Florent, who was deflowered by and had a bastard with Robert Baratheon, the king, had to marry a household knight. Princess Gael Targaryen who was seduced by a traveling singer and impregnated; killed herself. One of the daughters of Alys Arryn and Elys Waynwood was seduced by a sellsword; her bastard died in infancy and she joined the Silent Sisters. Witness Vargo Hoat’s preoccupation that Brienne “still be maiden” when he was going to ransom her, as though her “virginity” were a commodity, or Arys Oakheart’s concern than Doran find out that he’d “dishonoured” Arianne, as though her consent was not important, this was between two men. 5. And of course, women can't inherit in most cases. Separate is the situation with the inheritance of the Iron Throne, where “in the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendants”. Even if women do inherit, their inheritance is stolen by their husbands, as in the case of Ramsay and "Arya", Tyrion and Sansa, and the Karstark uncles attempted to steal Alys’s rights as well, also by forcefully marrying her. Or they end up challenged by other males in the family, as in the case of Asha and Victarion. Cersei sums it up: “We were so much alike, I could never understand why they treated us so differently. Jaime learned to fight with sword and lance and mace, while I was taught to smile and sing and please. He was heir to Casterly Rock, while I was to be sold to some stranger like a horse, to be ridden whenever my new owner liked, beaten whenever he liked, and cast aside in time for a younger filly. Jaime’s lot was to be glory and power, while mine was birth and moonblood.”— ACoK Of course, GRRM draws from history, and women were treated this terribly in real life, where they were the actual property of their husbands and fathers. "One of the things I wanted to do with A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE was to make it a little more "real" than most high fantasy. I drew much of my inspiration from history and historical fiction, and immersed myself in the Middle Ages before I began writing. Patriarchy was as much as part of medieval society as feudalism, faith, or swords. I have created other fictional worlds that are more sexually egalitarian — try my novel WINDHAVEN, written with Lisa Tuttle. With ICE AND FIRE, however, I preferred to stay closer to my historical models." - GRRM (Note: I haven't read Fire and Blood or The World of Ice and Fire and got those quotes from online sources).
  4. Werthead

    UK Politics: A Partly Political Broadcast

    Juncker has said he sees no reason to approve a further delay because they have a deal and he has no control over what Parliament does. Whether that's "take this deal or you leave on October 31st with no deal" is less clear, as that would need to be agreed by the full EU Council. But that seems to be Juncker's view at present.
  5. rotting sea cow

    Harrenhal's tourney, then what?

    Well, besides Robert B. we have yet to meet someone who really disliked/hated Rhaegar. Not even Ned can bring himself to hate the man. Most people loved and admired him. This was not the case with Daeron, as we see with Eutace discourse. It is true, however, Daeron was able to build a power base more effectively than Rhaegar. Well, we still need to know what reforms they were to understand why the lords were so pissed. Well, we know he tried Arianne. Yes, I understood the sentence wrong, quotation issues. Sure, the attendance of Aerys certainly messed up with any possible plan for a declaration, acclamation, whatever. But then even with more urgency, Rhaegar needed to perform in front of all lords that would risk much and more. Even if not immediately. Pulling such a stunt certainly will make them anxious about any adventure.
  6. Wolfgang I

    International Thread 3

    I remember people being excited about him when it was Macron vs. Le Pen...
  7. rotting sea cow

    Space Launches, Landings, and Destinations - SpaceX Thread #3

    BTW. I am not at all trilled by the Starlink venture. See this SpaceX submits paperwork for 30,000 more Starlink satellites https://spacenews.com/spacex-submits-paperwork-for-30000-more-starlink-satellites/
  8. Werthead

    UK Politics: A Partly Political Broadcast

    Now everyone's waiting to see what way the ERG go. The DUP have rejected it outright, but some of the Indy Tories will back and it and apparently up to 30 Labour MPs as well. The ERG could hold the balance of power here. Boris has apparently asked the EU to confirm they will not agree to an extension from 31 October, so it's this vote or nothing. That wasn't mentioned in the announcement, so I'm assuming that the EU declined to do that.
  9. Lord Varys

    Harrenhal's tourney, then what?

    And it would establish a precedent to limit the power of the monarch. A later king could then be citing 'madness' merely as a pretext to get rid of him. A regency setting on the other hand should often happen in similar cases, anyway. If a lord or king becomes a senile fool or is ailing for months or years (think of Hoster) it is clear that people would look to the heir apparent or heir presumptive for leadership - or, in the case of the king, the Hand would step in until a regency has to be establish. For that there could have been a majority. The forced abdiction scenario Yandel mentions as a possibility would have been a much dangerous thing. Did he? Daeron II is known to have had friends and allies among crucial people. Rhaegar was more of a fighter than Daeron, that's clear, but Daeron may have been more approachable. We have to keep in mind that Rhaegar was definitely not a people person, an introvert person with very few close friends who was suffering from melancholia or even depression for most of his life. I don't think it could work if Rhaegar had only half the lords on board if there was some sort of a vote. Corlys Velaryon and the Baratheons only gave in in 101 AC because Viserys one with a landslide, sending the message that Laenor's case was hopeless. With a ruling king being forced to accepted a regency (or even deposition) we have a completely different setting. Indifference or neutrality could be as poisonous as opposition, especially if the king starts to fight back. I can only imagine people abandoning Aerys II in droves if essentially all the lords - or nearly all the lords - at Harrenhal were to support Rhaegar in his plans. Not just an Aegon V, also simply a Daeron II - or a Rhaegar I, assuming he would have liked to govern more actively. Yandel's account of Tywin's success as Hand implies the man's politics were rather good for his fellow lords. If he and Rhaegar were to differ on that, there may have been quite a few lords who preferred Mad Aerys to an actual government. Yeah, independence is rather easily declared, and we can say that 'Rickard's power bloc' definitely had no plan whatsoever to establish independence. I mean, Jon would have known and they could have decided to depose the Targaryens and then go back to the Seven Kingdoms. Ned could have become the King in the North, Robert the new Storm King, and Jon the new King of Mountain and Vale. They were not forced to make Robert a pretender to the Iron Throne, especially since it seems Robert had to be pushed a little bit to declare himself. That could make some sense, although for that we would have to find out where the Arryns, Starks, Tullys, etc. stood in relation to Egg's reforms. The Baratheons and Tullys definitely would have had issues with Aegon V over the marriage scandals, but how they stood in relation the reforms is unclear. After Rhaelle was betrothed and married to Ormund Baratheon, the Baratheons could have become rather loyal supporters of Aegon V again considering that this was, in the end, an even larger boon than the previous marriage contract (considering it strengthened the Targaryen blood of the main Baratheon branch, giving the Lords of the Storm's End a pretty strong claim to the Iron Throne). That has to be considered, too. We see this kind of thing also with Torrhen's son supposedly objecting to the marriage of their sister to Lord Ronnel Arryn back after the Conquest. The fact that it seems to be very common that the great houses often intermarry with their own (powerful) vassals (think of the many Arryn-Royce matches we have evidence for), not to mention the rather insular marriage practices of the most recent Lannister and Stark generations - marriages outside your own backyard seem to have been unusual. You either intermarry with your own bannermen or with those of your cousins who bear your own men. Rickard Stark starting to dream big may have actually caused tensions in the North - just as the Ellyn Reyne thing (her being unable to become the Lady Lannister she wanted to be) is at the core of the problems in the West during the reign of Tytos, or Hoster's attempts to make great matches for his daughters (and brother) also poisoned that family to no small degree. Hoster must have rejected many a highborn Riverlander's daughter in favor of his Redwyne, Stark, and Lannister plans. And one really wonders who he wanted to have for Edmure. The fact that he is neither betrothed nor married in AGoT indicates Hoster may have aimed at Margaery Tyrell for him, or even Myrcella Baratheon. Because I really think Rhaegar's coronation of Lyanna is unthinkable from a narrative point of view if we ignore the mystery knight buildup. But it seems Rhaegar pulled the plug on the 'informal Great Council' thing as soon as it became known that Aerys II would attend. While there were many talks and such behind closed doors, it doesn't seem likely the issue of the king's madness were or could be properly dicussed. In that sense, I very much doubt anyone expected a great announcement at the end of the tourney. In FaB we have Simon Dondarrion crowning Alysanne queen of love and beauty - does this mean Simon and she had affair? Probably not. Prior to that, little Daenerys is also crowned queen of love and beauty - although she is still a young girl. Now, it certainly was odd that Rhaegar did not crown his own wife - and instead chose a girl who was already betrothed - and it caused the assembled people to get confused. But as we see with Robert's public reaction to it it should, at least on the surface, have been no big deal. Only men with as prickly pride and honor as the Starks - who apparently had to read this thing as Rhaegar making improper creep advances to their sister who was not supposed to become the mistress/whore of a prince - seem to have made a big deal about that. And even that could have been explained away in time. What made that impossible was the subsequent abduction.
  10. Pebble thats Stubby

    Electric Cars - Advise?

    if there are grants available, it might be worth getting a proper charger anyway. the 3 KWH charger for me was free with the combined government grant and what the dealership I bought the car of from. These grants (if you have them) may not be available when electric cars are the norm, as they are supposed to encourage people to switch. I say check out what is available and what it will cost before you say you don't want one.
  11. The Marquis de Leech

    Tolkien 3.0

    Tolkien's house at Northmoor Road on sale: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-49945583
  12. Platypus Rex

    What exactly is the point of Quentyn?

    The significance of Quentyn is that he is the real Aegon VI, rightful king of the Seven Kingdoms, son of Rhaegar and Elia. His significance is that when Dany and Jon quarrel about who is the rightful ruler, both will be wrong. People say he takes after his father. In fact, he takes after his mother. As a small child, he seemed to take after his father, but children change, as did his cousin Arianne, who in her childhood seemed to take after her father, but now resembles her mother. Young Griff, now styling himself as Aegon VI, is a fake, and more specifically, that he is the real Quentyn Martell. "Septa Lemore", who accompanies him, is in fact his mother, Mellario of Norvos, Doran's wife. Quentyn has dreams of fire and blood, as befits his Targaryen heritage. He survived his fiery encounter with Rhaegal, just as Dany has survived her fiery encounter with Drogon. He now hangs out with his new buddy Viserion in an abandoned but fully stocked Pyramid. The burnt-beyond-recognition man who died on Dany's bed is one of the identically-dressed windblown who accompanied Quentyn to the dragon pit. More specifically, he is the Tattered Prince, who likes to remove his cloak and maneuver incognito. Archie and Gerris obviously know more than what they are saying.
  13. This. I think the thing that is actually going on is that Stour loved Scale and vice versa. Also, why no Scale kids? discreetly killed by Calder?
  14. My issue with Bayaz = Owl is that it would fee like a retread of the first trilogy. We already know the twist that Bayaz is the “big bad” in control behind the scenes. To end this trilogy with Bayaz in the same place and in the same way feels uninspired. I’m expecting more of a twist from Joe.
  15. I was wondering about HBO Max, and the first image they show is GoT. Way to turn people off! Dany and a dragon, too. So they turn her into Satan, then use her for marketing. https://www.hbomax.com/
  16. Heartofice

    What shouldn't be done...about climate change

    They should have stuck to the impromptu Yoga sessions and interpretive dance. That was winning hearts and minds.
  17. Today
  18. Maithanet

    Electric Cars - Advise?

    Yeah, I don't think it'll be too much of a problem to have just the 110v charger. If it is, I'll get the upgrade, but i want to see if I can go without first.
  19. Maithanet

    Electric Cars - Advise?

    Why would you say you'd prefer to lease? The models I'm looking at are 1-3 years old, and are in the 14-20k range, whereas a new Leaf costs 30k. That seems like a good deal to me. I don't really go in for the bells and whistles, so I'm not sure what a lease would offer me. But at the same time, I know that leases are really popular with EVs, so I'm wondering what I'm missing. I don't think the renault is sold in the US. I've never seen one. I took a Leaf on a test drive last night and I didn't notice this in particular, although I thought the sight lines weren't great overall. I did notice that the rear view mirror was somewhat blocking my view, which I didn't love. It's going to be hard to match the sight lines of my 2002 Corolla, which were about as good as it gets for a sedan.
  20. Yeah, butterflies. I remember GRRM saying how different Jaime and Cersei's relationship was on the show, too. That's going to play out differently in the books, too.
  21. Alexis-something-Rose

    Moments of Foreshadowing v.12

    Why would he when he got to Westeros first?
  22. Jez Bell

    Acrophobia 36 - Gone Fishin' - ROUND 8!!

    Approx 24 hours left. Only a few entries so far, but I guess you guys are a bit swamped. Hands up if you want an extra day.
  23. polishgenius

    What shouldn't be done...about climate change

    I doubt it was any kind of plan by whatever organisation Extinction Rebellion has so much as two idiots taking it upon themselves and associating themselves with the name, but yeah, it's an absolute boneheaded stupid move both in terms of message and in keeping the public onside.
  24. Shae is not a nice person in the books. But, she was certainly the victim of murder at Tyrion's hands. And, prior to that, Tyrion did abuse her. But, you're right about the whitewashing in the show. Shae, for all her virtues, just wasn't worthy of him in the end, and he had to kill her after she turned on him. When you transform a major character completely from their book portrayal, you have to transform other characters who interact with them. So, Daenerys had to become the villain that Tyrion will likely be in the last two books.
  25. Inkdaub

    Small unworthy things - as you were

    Someone wake me up when the bare ankles thing stops being cool.
  26. Inkdaub

    What are things you do for self-care?

    Beyond Burgers are frighteningly satisfying. I also like going to readings/talks at the bookshop. Most recently went to see Pam Grossman and she was really great. One of my favorites ever, though, was Marjane Satrapi.
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