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  2. divica

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Massey will return after months. He hasn t even left… By the time he arrives most of those conflitos will be resolved... ps it is a sample chapter published in adwd. I don t think we need spoilers...
  3. Panos Targaryen

    The Reconstruction of King's Landing

    It took 50 years to build the Red Keep, and 55 years for KL to have all its major buildings, sewers etc. completed. So fucking ridiculous.
  4. Black Crow

    Heresy 222 vindication

    Welcome to Heresy 222, the latest iteration or the long-running thread which takes something of a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire as distinct from the Game of Thrones - and yes there is a difference. While the Mummers' version has obviously diverged in a big way from the book, certain outcomes have been revealed, which have been very encouraging and justifying our independent stance. By way of taking a break from the furore, here's a guest OP by Jova Snow: I started searching asoiaf deities while writing about Gemstone Emperors of Dawn, I identified Lion of Night, Maiden Made of Light and God on Earth with gemstones too and realized MMoL is tied to various deities like Lady of Spears, Pale Moon Maiden, Weeping Lady of Lys etc. And her ties with the Faith was obvious too, with these clues I began to build the Trinity of Asoiaf. Lion of Night - he is a lion headed deity worshipped by the wealthy, he is tied to House Craster and the Rock, he is the father of GoD and causes the Long Night after MMoL turns her back to planetos. He is Father and Stranger of the Faith, first head of the Trios, the destructive force. Maiden Made of Light - She is referred as Maiden, but she is also the mother of GoD, unlike the Crone who is said to light the path of humans, MMoL hides her light from the planetos causing a dark, cold, age. She is the second head of Trios, most says they don't know what's the second head for, I think this is due to MMoL being passive, Loan started the Other's attack and GoD ended it, but MMoL isn't part of the neither side. God on Earth - he is the Warrior and the Smith, he is the who made Lightbringer and the one who used it against the Others. He is the third head of Trios and symbolizes rebirth, a new era for the humanity. Although the Faith seems like the most anti magic religion they are actually a corrupted version of this Trinity, and they are the only known religion with a holy book in the series, although we are told the book contains prayers and hymns, in our world holy books also contains laws and historical content about important eras. Then I started to notice other similarities between deities and important figures of asoiaf. Bakkalon the Pale Child - an infant holding a sword, I know this is an Easter egg about GRRMs other novels but in our story we have infant sons of Craster given to the Others, we have no information what happens to them but maybe Bakkalon is clue about their fate. Semosh and Selloso - they are brother deities of Essos, there isn't much information about them but I think they are connected to House Tarly's founders. Aquan the Red Bull - another Essosi deity, Aquan seems to be similar to Bors the Breaker, who drank bull blood and grow horns. Essosi sacrifice bulls to his idols. Back to Seven Pointed Star, God I am a mess an super excited too, I think it is possible to have a certain timeline when it comes to history of planetos, if I use Qur'an as a real life parallel I would say Seven Pointed Star contains • An account of creation of Men and Woman - the only creation myth we have is from Dothraki > Adam and Eve • An account of Long Night, a catastrophic event that effected whole planet > Noah and Flood • An account of post Long Night and civilizations that followed the event > Iram of Pillars and Thamud * • An account of Andal migration to Westeros > Abraham and Lot • And lastly a Messiah and information about end times and hell/heaven * Iram of Pillars was known for their reaches and fertile lands, they were the first civilization to form after Noah's flood they were destroyed by sand strom and currently lies beneath the dunes of Rub al Khali * Thamud is a ruined city just south of Rub Al Khali according to Qur'an they were found after destruction of Iram, they built their cities by carving mountains but was destroyed by an earthquake, a new city called Thamud was founded just south of it's namesakes ruins, it's located in Yemen. Jova Snow
  5. Megorova

    Jon's first chapter

    When Jon was going away with the wildlings, and turned to look at the gate, after that he smiled, just a bit. Which can mean, that the Night Watchers let him to the other side, under pretense, that he is just going to escort freefolk part of the way, to wherever they are going, but he wasn't going to ever go back to The Wall, he planned to leave with the wildlings for good. That's the meaning of his smile. That they (Night Watchers) allowed him to go with the wildlings, that they are so naive, that they think that he will return. This time he gave no oath, and he is the King of 7K, not Bran. So Jon is not obliged to do what Bran (or anyone else) ordered him. Furthermore, before Jon met Dany, he had already loved once. Ygritte died, Dany died, but he can find someone else to love. Furthermore, I'm not entirely against a possibility, that eventually Jon will hook up either with Sansa or Arya (at some point GRRM did planned for Jon+Arya to happen in the books). After Jon had found out, that Dany is his aunt, he couldn't even kiss with her, because he was raised in The North, and by their standarts, aunt+nephew is considered to be incest. Though first cousins, as husband and wife, are not. There's plenty of Stark first cousins, that married, for example - Rickard Stark (father of Ned and Lyanna) was married with his cousin, Lyarra Stark; other Starks were marrying with their cousins from Karstark House, etc. So Arya+Jon, or Sansa+Jon is not something impossible. It always looked to me, that Sansa's feelings towards Jon and his relationship with Dany, didn't looked like a simple dissaproval of a caring sister, for a bad choice of a partner, made by her brother. It looked more like Sansa was jealous of Dany's relationship with Jon, as a woman, not as a sister. Now The North is independent and The Wall is in The North, and Sansa is the Queen in The North. So if she will want Jon, she can have him. There's no more Night's Watch as an organisation, it's just a place for people, that don't fit with the rest of society. Nothing and no one stops Jon from leaving. He gave no oath, to take no crowns, to father no children, etc. So either Sansa will propose him to marry, or Arya will eventually return to Westeros, and when she will visit Jon, she will stay with him and his freefolk, or he will leave Westeros, and will go to travel with her.
  6. Demetri

    GoT and Feminism: What Happens Now?

    I didn't make a mistake, you don't understand what common law means. I've read hundreds of British cases viewed as common law, I've written on the common law system in individual states. You not being able to understand me doesn't make me wrong, it makes you limited and should probably excuse you from the conversation. Now, at least, you're not even trying to spout nonsense because you accept that you're better at insults than analysis. Furthermore, you know absolutely nothing about the law in general, law schools or lawyers. You commenting on it exemplifies the willful ignorance you peddle like crack. You've never posted an ounce of evidence. I've provided examples, court cases and quotes. It isn't nonsensical, it's just above your head. Go do some research, bring back evidence and maybe you'll have an opinion worth talking about because as it stands you think American common law doesn't exist, that English common law is the only type of common law that can exist, and disagree heartily with established jurisprudence both here and in England. Furthermore, you never really corrected me with a better understanding because you don't have one. I literally quoted a Supreme Court Justice who laid out exactly the type of system I was talking about and, because he has a greater understanding than you do, did not ever mention that the process of common law must be set in any particular geographic place or derive from an particular country or culture. I'm glad you accept your role as being the person who doesn't "say smart things" as like 5 other posters have pointed out. And total d-bag? You questioned my education (which, given your silence, I assume I have more of than you do) before I ever mentioned anything ad hominem. You have a childish tendency to "LOL" and "HAHAHA" in response to posts in an attempt to belittle rather than leading with analysis and logic. That says EVERYTHING I need to know about you. As a final thought, I don't give a crap about your opinion on where I should post. It isn't my fault you don't have the chops to back up the silly stuff you say. And it is shocking that you don't remember the point I was trying to make. Let me help, since remembering the point is important in arguments. You digressed terribly when I said that "common law" isn't nonsense or "Circlejerk" (a term produced by your amazing verbal skills). We were talking about the GMs for a while, and another poster said that Dany had refused to apply ex post facto laws in recognition that previously slavery was legal either due to statute (where was the statute, hm??) or through common law, thus making the offender's act of sexual violence NOT rape due to the circumstances and the common law legal status of slavery. It was exceptionally poignant to the discussion as your contention was that "all slavers should die" which is not something Dany did. In fact, when killing the GMs, she acted unjustly and immorally by not trying to dispense justice but instead randomly selected 163 members of a guilty group for punishment. I argue it was a punitive measure (legal term, look it up!) rather than a recuperative measure. Dany didn't care about their individual guilt or the justice of each individual crucifixion, but instead cared about a static, elementary concept of justice (kind of like you!) that in the hands of queens often produces bloodthirsty tyrants (like someone who would burn down KL.) How embarrassing is it for you that you couldn't even remember that? I think you'd do a better job of defending Dany if you'd do things like, I dunno, provide support for your arguments or even REMEMBER WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO ARGUE! But either way, I'm not letting someone who can't remember their own argument to dissuade me from posting. The only purpose and point of your views is for me to point out why they're so pigheaded. If you don't like being "bombarded" with replies, stop posting insults and idiocy. Now go research common law because you are literally the only person here who doesn't get it.
  7. Lost Melnibonean

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    The quote below is going to be eerily similar to the situation in early Winds... The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF Stannis is sending men to hire sellswords, a kraken is reaving, and a terrible winter has begun. The paragraph above is followed by the one below... The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF Enter Stannis and the Northmen.
  8. divica

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Because stannis taking winterfell is completly useless. The north is divided and he can t unite it without a stark. Wether he has winterfell or not is completly indiferent… Ther northerns won t march south and won t completly join him… Then stannis has to return to the Wall to see how the preparations are going to man the Wall. And why would he leave the Wall if massey might arrive at any moment with sellswords? he can t leave the north… if massey returns and he isn t there what would happen? It makes sense that if stannis is defeated he goes hiding in the Wall waiting for massey… It even makes much more sense for stannis to face the other on the Wall than winterfell…. And no matter what you may think of ramsay roose is a very interesting villain. He probably wiil have a backstory and it makes sense to have him vs a stark… Roose vs stannis is kind of useless...
  9. kissdbyfire

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    It does matter how the author explains what is going on with the dead that are being brought back to life. LOL And the point is, they are not who they were. They’re not living beings, they’re reanimated corpses. It’s one thing for Beric’s resurrection to have an effect on the small folk in the Riverlands. Because Beric was already their champion, so to speak. He was sent there to bring the Mountain to justice, or kill him. The Mountain who was ravaging the land and killing small folk left and right. So when Beric dies and is brought back, people see it as a sign, he becomes a saviour in their eyes. If Jon Snow, a bastard and, if Marsh gets to say anything, a deserter of the NW is brought back by Red Rahloo, a foreign demon god, people in the north will not be very willing to crown him their king. IMO.
  10. And I haven’t even said a thing about continuity. So there’s this injured man in shock walking the streets and Jon, Davos and Tyrion just walk by and stare in horror instead of taking the injured man’s hand and put him in the care of whoever is in charge of injured? And they confront GreyWorm about killing the Lannister prisoners but after two minutes of debate they just give up and let GreyWorm kill the prisoners? Why wouldn’t Jon insist to take the matter to Daenerys immediately? And Jaime and Cersei were crushed to death beneath a pile of bricks and they were buried face up, because they didn’t instinctively hunch over to protect their heads, yet somehow their faces were still perfectly intact, their skulls and faces weren’t bashed in by the force of the falling bricks? Really? Then Daenerys made a conqueror speech in foreign languages, which always works because Emilia Clarke is just good at those Valyrian and Dothraki speeches and we see that she really is not okay in the head. Then she arrests Tyrion, which we are supposed to feel upset about, even though it is a very much justified action as Tyrion did act against her and go behind her back and give her shitty advice. And then.... goodness gracious, then Jon visits Tyrion in his confinement, and the dialogue. At this point I didn’t even mind that there’s barely any dialogue because even no dialogue is better than when there is dialogue. Tyrion first goes on about how bad he is been. Yes he indeed he has been a very shitty person, but the show and director doesn’t want us to acknowledge this, so Peter Dinklage delivers his best upset puppy dog face to make us think that Tyrion is actually the best person the world has ever seen. And there’s this weird line that Jon loved daenerys more successfully, we don’t know what the fuck that even means, wss Tyrion into Daenerys too? And then it gets even worse because Tyrion calls the fucking Queen who just burned a city Dany. Yes he fucking calls her Dany. Why the fuck would you do that, why? Does no character live inside this story anymore? Are we all trapped inside a Buzzfeed fan article? Then it doesn’t get better because Tyrion somehow fucking assumes that Jon didn’t come up with what he said. Like Hey Tyrion, apples are healthy. Hey Martha, did you just come up with that? No, my grandma told me. Oh my fucking god, Jon didn’t recite a poem, whatever gives you the goddamn impression that he didn’t just come up with what he said? Why couldn’t Jon simply add “maester Aemon told me” why would you put this dumbass line in Tyrion’s mouth? Anyway, Jon leaves conflicted and upset after Tyrion asks him to kill Daenerys, implying he won’t do the deed. He then seeks out Daenerys and after another ludicrous piece of dialogue about the contrived parallel of their childhoods, Jon stabs Daenerys. And as the uninspiring, unfavorite, unbadass, weak female character she is, Daenerys dies. Doesn’t she know that she should just jump up and run to find a magical Dothraki healer before she can duel Jon two days later? Silly woman. Then Drogon gets mad and doesn’t burn Jon for some reason, and no he didn’t know it was the iron throne that corrupted Daenerys, because according to the narrative I have seen, the iron throne didn’t corrupt Daenerys. Losing her loved ones and believing that she was chosen to save the world did. Not having the iron throne didn’t induce her unstable mind, and having it didn’t seem to affect her. The iron throne is thus melted erased from the world in 30 seconds, Drogon flies away with Daenerys and Jon... well we never find out what the hell happened to him. For some reason GreyWorm doesn’t kill him, for some reason GreyWorm even agrees to sentence him to the wall (we have no clue why GreyWorm thinks this is punishment and even the narrative can’t decide if it’s punishment or not). Sansa and Arya who negotiated this whole business seem to think it is and it’s beyond everybody’s comprehension why they follow through with this punishment after GreyWorm and the Dothraki sail away. They could simply see Jon back to winterfell. But I suppose this is what happens when Sansa Stark negotiates for one of her siblings, is that right, Rickon? Meanwhile Tyrion negotiates for himself. This goes to the length that Tyrion, a prisoner, in the presence of his captor, tells some random lords to elect Bran King. They do so without arguing. We have no idea why this happens or why GreyWorm even allows Tyrion to lead this discussion. Bran then says he’s been here for this all along. If this is true, Bran is a psychopath who shouldn’t be let anywhere near power, because he spent two years playing a catatonic cripple and refusing to help his allies and save thousands of human lives with the information he had. If it is not true, the statement makes no sense and contradicts Bran’s statement about not wanting the throne. Either way, we don’t understand why this is all happening so fast, so easily or at all. We crown Sansa queen of the north, and even though she brings up the question of Bran’s success, we never get any information about how she plans to take care of her succession. I suppose we are to assume that the north will elect their monarchs in the future as well. Arya sails west of Westeros, and just like in tyrion’s case, everybody, including Maisie Williams, Dan, Dave, Ramin Djawadi work very hard to make us forget that Arya is in fact a sociopathic killer. The irony of this reaches its peak when she tells Jon she knows a killer when she sees one. Right, like in the mirror, you mean? After quitting the Night’s Watch, quitting his studies at the Citadel, Sam Tarly fulfills his life dreams and becomes a wizard. He then enchants himself into a grand maester in the span of what seems to be two weeks. This is less time than it takes to brew a Polyjuice Potion, so we are talking about some strong magic here. We have no information on Gilly and their children or the Citadel’s stand on a Grand maester with a family. Brienne meanwhile came to terms with being dumbed by the (second) love of her life after a six night stand, and writes nice things about him into that book from earlier seasons. Podrick was also knighted, Bronn is a finance minister - we must assume that Sam enchanted him some reading, writing and calculus skills, as Bronn, a common sellsword would normally be illiterate (this was an issue even for Ser Davos) and the same must have happened to Lord Gendry of Storm’s End Who wasn't immediately deprived of the title an unstable despot bestowed on him after her death. And Ser Davos is still the designated grammar nazi, and we get ourselves a full 15 minutes of small council parody to (unintentionally - I hope) disgrace the early seasons that still had what we used to call a political plot. Bran doesn’t seem to take part in leading the realm, he rolls in to say hi, asks a nonsensical question about Drogon, implies that he might find him for no reason and without any follow up, his eyes don’t roll back and turn blue and we cut away without any hope that something might come out of this finale. Jon arrived at the Wall and reunited with Ghost, which was one of the two scenes that gave me happiness. Then he led the wildlings north of the wall. To... In order to... for the purpose of... no, I have no clue. He just lead them north. We don’t know why he is a leader again. We don’t know if he is allowed to do that being in the NW again. We don’t even know if there’s still an NW. Tyrion says there will always be need for people to guard the realms of men, but then, against what? The white walkers are gone and the wildlings are no longer considered an enemy. I suppose we’ll see a spinoff about those snarks and grumkins. Absolutely no effort was made to ties together the major plotpoints that happened on this episode, nothing made any sense and the dialogue was something straight out of a parody of the actual game of thrones finale. The episode was terribly structured and terribly toned, character storylines were turned into meme materials for the self serving reason of getting certain visuals the writers wanted us to see. No prior majorly important plotlines were completed, they were simply severed and forgotten about. I hope I made it profoundly clear that I have no complaints about any of the actual plotpoints and all my rants and raves are target at the way they were written and presented.
  11. McGuv19

    Unowned lands and keeps

    Tywin does actually end up giving Rolph Spicer the ruins of Castamere
  12. Bittersweet Distractor

    Edmure Should Have Got It

    Edmure is an incompetent idiot who would have his pants pulled down by every Lord in Westeros, honestly I'd not trust him as a parking valet yet alone a ruler.
  13. Lost Melnibonean

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    I am putting this in spoilers since we are addressing the unpublished Winds spoiler chapter... aboard the ships that Manderly has hidden up the White Knife. With Tommen fighting Aegon, and both of them fighting Euron, and with tales of Daenerys finally reaching Stannis's ear, he's gonna head south.
  14. South is definitly economicaly stronger, but has also always been divided by various inner conflicts (Martell VS Tyrell etc). Sansa is already allied with vale and riverlands, and now has more than enough time to rebuild north. It doesn't matter anyway, story is over.
  15. Dragonslack

    The Reconstruction of King's Landing

    Accelerated time power and mass resurrection spell. The populace is all warged into peacefulness without the need for violence.
  16. Bittersweet Distractor

    Robert Baratheon - Not so bad after all

    Compared to Aerys and Joffery, and inept Tommen yes he was. I still think the best King was Jaeherys 1.
  17. Dragonslack

    Bran warged Tyrion

    D&D warged Tyrion. Bran warged the leader of the unsullied.
  18. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    I know this thread is almost wrapped up, but in response to the OP: I am probably one of the few people who think that Jon Snow will not need a resurrection because he isn't dead. Certainly he was stabbed but that doesn't equal death. He might be knocked into some kind of coma, which would mirror Bran's fall and coma, where I am certain he spent some conscious time in Summer. In this way, Jon's coma might lead him to spend some time in Ghost, but those comments that GRRM made last year about Cat and Beric being fire wight's, which also included Jon in the show-verse, made me feel even more strongly that Jon will not die from his stabbing. He could certainly come back darker, because we see that with Bran after his fall, too! A darker, sadder version of Bran!
  19. how is GRRM going to pull this off as a love story? Not only are they opposites/foils, there is still the idea that time will be compressed in the books. If he still plans for 7 books and for them to meet in the last one - is any real long lasting love even going to take hold. I just can't see it. Jaime/Cersei had a more convincing love story, even if it was fucked up. I really don't think Jon would be the one who has to be convinced to kill her, like a resistant audience member. I think Tyrion is more likely to play that role because he's more susceptible to the charms of pretty women. Either way, "audience stand in who defends Dany" fell to Jon and that felt piss-poor.
  20. Dragonslack

    [Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

    Another misconception by Bran the bot, the 3er, the mantree, the deceiver. He won the game of thrones big time and all he had to do was move some puppets with few words, let countless people die and sit back and wait. Warg the dragon if needed.
  21. The Coconut God

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    But why must we have this convoluted mess... Stannis losing, surviving, running away to the wall, somehow growing mad enough to burn Shireen instead of running off to Braavos to get more sellswords... all for the sake of the boring ass Ramsay vs Jon side story? I don't get it. It's just bad. The story flows smoother, is more satisfying, and serves the characters better thematically if Stannis retakes Winterfell, finally loses his skepticism about his higher destiny and makes the supreme sacrifice for the sake of the realm, only to be crushed by reality in the most tragic way. It doesn't matter what you and Martin call him, what matters is how he is seen by his potential followers. Fire wight or not, Beric's resurrections were enough to convert a lot of people down in the south. The crucial difference between them and the ice zombies (at least the ones the Others use) is that they can pass off as real people.
  22. RFL

    Edmure Should Have Got It

    Edmure sat down and shut up when told. What about him screams leadership to anyone? See Tyrions reaction to being told to shut up?
  23. But WHY invade the north? Assume you make it past Moat Cailin from the south, past Howland Reed and the rest in the marshes, assume the Nights Watch does not interfere, and that whatever Stark blood is left doesn't warg into fantastical creatures and destroy you what have you gained? Even Stannis was not familiar with all the small time Lords in the North and had to have Jon help show him where they were to try to recruit. Bear Island was not able to give Mormont's wife, from the south, the life she wanted and Mormont had to attempt slave trading (and be banished) for it. Assume you take the north. Who wants it? How do you keep it? What have you gained? The north remembers and while a foreign lord may hold it for a short time it will rise up again.
  24. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    I am just catching up, so I'm sorry if his was already addressed, but Baristan tells us that Ashara has "long dark hair" but it never states if that hair is brown or black. I think it's possible her hair is black, which actually fit's with what we know of Darkstar, who also has some black in his hair. I am not trying to derail your theory, but does Edric's age match Ned's trip to Starfall? That happened 14-15 years before and Edric admits to being twelve. I guess he could be mislead about his own age, but Arya's guess on his age is that he is younger, not older. I think at this point in the story, Sansa is 13, which means she is older than Edric Dayne. Ned had to father Sansa after he returned to Catelyn after the war, so I don't see how he could have fathered Edric on Ashara after this. It would have had to be before and Edric would have to be older than Sansa, but younger than Jon or Robb, if he his Ned's son. That is interesting. This is a theory I have not heard of. She certainly talks about her son but seems to want to keep him away from court and Cersei. If this boy looked like Robert, it would certainly be noticed by Cersei! And other's. Do you have a link to this theory? This reminds me of that line about Ned telling Robert that Robert had the better claim to the throne, which leads me to believe that Ned also had a blood claim to the throne, just not as strong as Robert's. I think there is something hidden within the Stark lineage that will be a big reveal. I thought it was Aerea Targaryen, but that seems to be not what F&B tells us, although the read Aerea is in Oldtown using the name of her sister Rhaella. Aerea and Arya are too similar for me to ignore! Aegon would be Elia's son, which perhaps makes the link to the Rhoynar make sense.
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