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  2. Haskelltier

    Jon's first chapter

    Well, he always dreamed of being a Stark (a true Stark). But yes, he never showed any serious ambition to gain power, becoming Lord Commander, Lord or King. He became Lord Commander because it was his duty and because he wanted to change things for the good by letting the Wildlings south of the Wall and trying to create a small world where Wildings, Night Watch and Northern Lords can live more or less peacefully together. He rejected Stannis offer to legitimize him and making him Lord of Winter (Warden of the North and so on), because he felt and was oath-bound to the Night Watch. And he had insights into Wilding culture and appreciated a few things he learnt there. But I don't think his fate is bitter. Yes, he didn't become king, but that was nothing he ever wanted. Instead he will live a normal life with people who respect him for who he is and what he has done. The only hardship he had to endure was killing a loved person, but that is in the past.
  3. Rory Snow

    [Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

    Frankly I think a petition is just whiney. Which is fine to a degree, as fans we can whine if we want, that's what a board like this is built on. But a petition? Eh. If it bothers people that bad, just don't watch. If folks insist on watching then how bad can it be... come in here, piss and moan a little and be done with it. But a petition insisting on a re-do? Just sounds like a bunch of petulant children stamping their feet and crying that they didn't get their way. It's not surprising tho', there seems to be a lot of that in society recently.
  4. Eltharion21

    Were you expecting something different?

    I had pretty low expectations and I also have seen spoilers who were out for months before the finale, and I still got disappointed by low quality of ending of all story lines. Others, Jaime, Cersei, Golden Company, most characters are like unlikable or feeble minded one liner jerks, piggybacking on actors back since there isn't no more great writing and using their emoting to grab those shiny awards, wrong and repetitive use of lines from previous seasons, lack of consistency in established lore and character motivations and huge illogical mistakes, cringing jokes... Show final season, especially last four episodes were extremely bad by shows only standards, not even taking books into account.
  5. You made my point. GRRM wanted a 5-yr gap, which he has now given up. So, now he has to make a 10-11 year old crippled boy becoming the King believable somehow. And what connections does Bran have? The North may support him, and perhaps the Riverlands if the Tullys end up retaking their seat. Why would the Reach or Dorne or the Stormlands or anyone else want an 11 yr old kid from the North for their King? And will he have a regent? Or are they going to be fine with a weird kid ruling them? And, what does magic have to with him getting elected King? Is he going to warg all the nobles on the council? George will have to come up with something brilliant to make this work.
  6. massoir

    Books vs Show: How much difference?

    Massive, the books are well written and full of prophecy, conspiracy and subterfuge. the show for some reason didnt want to use alot of the source material, i.e. dorne and the real greyjoy uncles
  7. Starkz

    Who was Daenerys turned into?

    Actually news flash... they really do. Have you realized how long families like the Clintons have been in politics or the Kennedys? Not to mention lordships are given out occasionally and this is just the first step towards democracy.
  8. I really enjoyed Tyrion’s speech because it summed up my feelings about a certain portion of the fan base who seem to want to hold Dany up as their hero. I never saw her in those terms, because it would be far too simplistic and uninteresting a story for her to swoop in and save the day. Her character was always more complex , in the books and parts of the show. My least favourite parts of the show were the movements where i was expected to cheer for Danys cruelty , when she burns someone. Her riding on a dragon and giving inspirational speeches was more annoying than anything. So yes, I’m happy
  9. Tyrion NEVER said Dany was always evil, didn't even imply it. He said "where ever she (Dany) went, evil men died", and that's why people like Jorah, Varys, Selmy and he supported her in the first place. They supported her vision for Westeros. But she became arrogant and obsessed with taking the Iron Throne and that's when her character really started its descent (although there were hints all along the way.) Anyway, I felt the purpose of Tyrion's "speech" (for the viewers) was to kind of summarize Dany's character arc, not to make viewers feel guilty. I felt sorry for her. I don't think Dany's character can be boiled down to simply good or bad. She was a complex character who had both good and bad in her, just like most of the rest of the characters on the show. She did a lot of good in Essos, and even in Westeros she was a force for positive change. The problem was she had a warped idea of what an acceptable level of sacrifice was to achieve her goals. But I haven't heard anyone say that her later actions negated her earlier actions.
  10. Other 6 kingdoms conquered by the Andals, the North didn't. ''The Andals conquered every kingdoms in Westeros save one, the North.'' Which is why the North is different and the older than the rest.
  11. He has no experience in governing or war, but he has the ability to look into the past and learn from literally all the people living the last 8000 years. In addition to that, if he chooses his adivisors (Hand, Master of ... and so on) wisely, he don't have to be competent in all that right away. That may come with time. And who is better at choosing advisors then an quasi-omniscient person, who can take a look at someones life to get a very good picture of his strengths, weaknesses, loyalty and so on? And concerning the loyalties: He has the support of the North (I know, the North is independent, but they won't trouble him and will live peacefully together),the Westlands, the Vale and the Riverlands. He has the loyalty of Bronn by promoting him to Lord of the Reach and making him Master of Coin. So only Dorne ist left, but I think the new Lord of Dorne (not a Martell) might have other problems than rebelling against Bran. And we shouldn't left out that Westeros has seen a long time of constant wars. The War of the Five Kings, The War Against the White Walkers, the War Against Cersei and Daenerys, maybe the Lords of Westeros have learnt a thing or two and will be peaceful for a time (at least to replenish the decimated armies, rebuild destoryed castles, restore devastated areas and so on). To be fair, the Targaryen rule wasn't as peaceful as you pictured it. Yes, the Targaryens had good kings, but they also had bad ones, cruel ones, mad ones. They took the Iron Throne by force (or conquest) and they had Dragons to suppress everyone, who was against them. And when there wasn't any they started a civil war called Dance of Dragons with a massive use of dragons. Not to mention the Blackfyre Rebellions.
  12. DireWolfSpirit

    International Thread 3

    For whatever reason the other thread is saying no new posts even though its only at 395 by my count. Anyways I'll start a new one here. More on Venezuela here- This is two Venezuelans debating Maduro's merits. A fresh perspective without "Propaganda Bolton's" paws on it.
  13. I will never understand why D&D just didn't hand the show over to people who actually want to do it after Season 3. They wanted to do the Red Wedding and that's it. They never had any desire to go further. And if the show was so taxing and they wanted to have more of a life or do other projects, just hand it over to someone else. Arguably we might have gotten a much better show than this in the hands of someone halfway competent instead of almost completely incompetent like D&D. The new people probably also would have hired better writers. At the very least HBO could have stepped in and done something. But oh well...
  14. Eltharion21

    GRRM's (Brief) Thoughts on the Final Episode

    In this story Scarlet's children all turned out to be feeble-minded. Ending is accomplished mockingly bad with huge logical inconsistencies (Elrond's council ripoff is especially jarringly bad) and it doesn't even hold up to standard of later seasons let alone first four or books. Love is the death of duty and Martin seems to love the people who cooperated with him in making his work known wide world. He names d&d and Cogman three heads of the dragon, subtle nod to their value or becoming delusional villains if the holy shit moments appear in the books ( We bigger scorpions Ullers!).
  15. I see where you're coming from, but I'd put it a different way. Actually, I think trying to make us feel complicit in Dany's long descent into darkness is the most ambitious, most unforgettable thing the show has ever tried to pull off, surpassing even the Red Wedding. The problem is that the show failed. We should've been with Dany every step of the way along this path--starting with, yes, watching her brother die, followed by giving Mirri Maz Duur to the flames, unleashing dragonfire on the Astapor slavers, crucifying the Meereen masters, hating herself for making peace with the Sons of the Harpy, cheering when Drogon arrives roaring in Daznak's Pit, taking Vaes Dothrak with fire and blood, all of it, up to and including the Burning of King's Landing. There is no disconnect between her story in Essos and her one in Westeros--or, at least, there shouldn't be. One follows from the other, every decision that Dany makes is part of a long, unbroken chain of choice and consequence that leads inevitably to a ultimate turning point. Just like Tyrion strangling Shae to death, or Theon killing the miller's boys, or Arya stabbing the Tickler, or Jon Snow abandoning the Night's Watch to march on Winterfell, and all the other moments in this story that are horrifying and insane regarded at a distance but, somehow, in the moment, in the minds and hearts of the characters who live them, feel right and justified and irrevocable. Moments of change, of revelation and tragedy. There's no doubt Daenerys is the final villain of A Song of Ice and Fire. But it shouldn't feel that way, when we're in her head. At the very least, when she burns King's Landing, we should understand why she did it. We should experience that along it with her. That's what the show didn't do--bringing the viewer along for the final turn. Suddenly, it shifted perspective away from Dany, distanced the camera away from her. And so, as viewers, we were not complicit, because we were not cheering Dany as she took the torch to the city. We saw the sack of King's Landing through Tyrion's eyes, Jon's, Arya's--but not Dany's. GRRM will do a better job if and when he ever gets to that point.
  16. DMC

    Thank You George

    I'm going to try to be objective/non-judgmental with this. I think there needs to be an appreciation thread for what GRRM did at this juncture. Personally, I would have no idea about this place unless he made the decision to option the property to HBO. And I couldn't be more thankful that he did, warts and all. I am so grateful I got to see his vast spectacle be (somewhat) depicted on screen with unprecedented production value for a television show. Cheers!
  17. Jon Snow’s first chapter in the first book starts like that: “There were times-not many, but a few-when Jon Snow was glad he was a bastard.” Having watched the finale, now, I think this is a foreshadowing of his ultimate fate. He doesn't want to be a lord commander, a Stark, King of the North, Heir to the Iron Throne or King of the Seven Kingdoms, sometimes, like in the end, he is happy being just a bastard, living his life away from lord and thrones, wars and politics. I think his fate is more bitter than sweet, cause he's lost so much and I will miss this wonderful character, but he is probably closest to being happy now.
  18. Heartofice

    The Ending Was very conventional

    Yeah the ending could have led to a different type of society being formed at the end. But please stop trying to crowbar modern day politics into everything.
  19. Lord_Ravenstone

    Did Bran know all the time he is the future king?

    Isaac says it's Bran just with extra memories smashed into his head.
  20. Sansa isn't going crazy. She's normal and will be the Queen of Winter. Arya will eventually be brought back from the brink as will Tyrion. But I don't think Daenerys is going crazy. She'll have the Stannis story where she has to pick between what she wants and innocent lives. She'll make the wrong choice.
  21. Jon Snow Bengal

    [Poll] How would you rate episode 806?

    While the writing and storyline throughout season 8 was sub-par, abysmal even and i would give it a rating of close to zero, the last episode was actually really good. All was tied together well. I gave it an 8. To me it had a similar feel as the first few seasons - more story, it flowed with greater authenticity and had less shock for its own sake. However, I suspect there would've been a lot of GRRM input into the last episode in the way that there would have been extensive discussions on how the story was to end. So well done.
  22. The Coconut God

    GRRM's (Brief) Thoughts on the Final Episode

    And I think you may be putting too much weight on it. George likes to call back to his good lines. This is probably no different. I think the best thing we can do now is try to identify what story lines they merged and work out what that might mean for the plot from there. There is another thread on what the show means for the book plot where I went into more detail on that. Maybe some of the ideas there will give you some hope?
  23. cury

    Seeing the bigger bigger picture.

    I think that one possible meaning is Man should become one with Nature, because otherwise Nature will fight back and if we are not working together we would be destroyed. The Children are Nature, the Others are Nature's weapon, and Bran and the Greenseers in general are the merge of man and Nature. But, of course, ASOIAF is a giant story and it could have so many different ideas and meanings hidden there. Edit: I just realised this is my first post in the forum and I've joined 6 years ago
  24. " There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Except when there's a management meeting in Kings Landing. Then it's fine."
  25. Jon's not the most morally upright character in the books. There are several POVs like Barristan, Davos and Brienne that beat him in that regard. That said, the Meereense Blot already told us what the purpose of their ruling chapters are for which GRRM agreed with. They're to explore their values not to train them. At the end of the day, Jon and Dany are just teens and Bran's got thousands of years of wisdom behind him.
  26. This is perfect. As much as I love these books, the one thing that I find annoying is this whole "mad targ" gun. So god flips a coin, but it doesn't pan out until...whenever? Then what is the use of Viserys who is so obviously supposed to be a crazy targ? Why are there no crazy Lannisters? Cersei is crazy, Tywin is the one who taught her, Jamie pushed a child out a window, Tyrion strangled his prostitute, but noooooo it's the targs that are crazy. GRRM put the mad queen plot device in there to choose if he wanted to shoot the gun later. He's stated he's a gardener who lets his characters grow, but he always had Dany's end in mind. If this is how she ends in the books then GRRM is purposefully misdirecting the audience just so he can shoot the gun and call it clever. I rooted for Dany, I still stand by her. That last 8.5 - 8.6 was NOT Daenerys Targaryen. That was the original destination GRRM had in mind. Two very different things. The creators of How I Met Your Mother learned this hard lesson as well, as their once-great ongoing series ended in disappointment (so much that no one mentions it when talking about LOST and Dexter) and everyone forgot about it. I'm not looking forward to the books if this is how it plays out. I will forget this, but I will always remember Daenerys Targaryen as how she is, not what she originally was meant to be.
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