Mokymok Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Doesn't make sense anywhere, Howland disguised as Rhaegar ? OMG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHouseHB Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 :drunk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Probably the biggest of these absurdities that make this true, what is Real Rhaegar doing the entire time theres a war going on cause a Fake Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I want to clarify, this may be dumb of me but I feel it should be addressed: By Rob's rebellion we are talking about Robert Baratheon, not Robb Stark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 What about the KG? Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm What do you mean? Real Rhaegar ordered them to stand watch over Lyanna and Howlands baby, then Howland comes and kills the KG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Please forgive me if this tinfoil /crackpot theory has already been beaten to death but.....So we all know how R+L=J is the most widely accepted theory but what if....Jon Snow is actually the son of Howland Reed and Lyanna Stark.consider the story from the Harrenhal Tournamentconsider how Howland Reed's wife is suspiciously named Jyannaconsider why we haven't heard from or seen Howlandconsider what happened at the Tower of Joy Now how likely do you think it is that Howland and Lyanna begat Jon?why? I'll give you some more fodder to feed the flames of this theory. Perhaps Lyanna was desperate to escape her imminent marriage to the unfaithful Robert Baratheon. Perhaps Lyanna. Benjen , or Brandon Stark schemed a plan with Howland to overthrow Targ rule and allow the Starks to take the throne, but got drastically out of control to the point where Benjen would feel extreme guilt and eventually join the NW? and Howland would go into a state of hermitation? Perhaps Rhaegar was incriminated and the real Rhaegar never actually kidnapped Lyanna. I'm not trying to stir up a ton of controversy or confusion,im not trying to discredit other theorys I just want to give this idea plenty of room to breathe. I'd love to read ideas for and opposed. So we all know how R+L=J is the most widely accepted theory but what if....The case for Lyanna having a love child is weak.And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRMLyanna running off would be a case of her losing her mind. If you are going to invent her running off you should include that she was campaigning for democracy and votes for women. And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.--GRRMhttp://entertainment...sy-and-history/ Aerys called Tywin a servant. The Starks were merely subjects.If Rhaegar wanted Lyanna, he would just take her. Jon Snow is actually the son of Howland Reed and Lyanna Stark. consider the story from the Harrenhal Tournament--There was interaction between the two... and she was his knight in shining armor.consider how Howland Reed's wife is suspiciously named JyannaNot sure what a suspicious name is...consider why we haven't heard from or seen HowlandLets see, he sent his children... so we have not seen himconsider what happened at the Tower of JoyYou'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.--GRRMhttp://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy Perhaps Lyanna was desperate to escape her imminent marriage to the unfaithful Robert Baratheon.see above link... never happened Perhaps Lyanna. Benjen , or Brandon Stark schemed a plan with Howland to overthrow Targ rule and allow the Starks to take the throne, but got drastically out of control to the point where Benjen would feel extreme guilt and eventually join the NW? and Howland would go into a state of hermitation?----consider what happened at the Tower of Joy---- Perhaps Rhaegar was incriminated and the real Rhaegar never actually kidnapped Lyanna.----consider what happened at the Tower of Joy---- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 So we all know how R+L=J is the most widely accepted theory but what if....The case for Lyanna having a love child is weak.And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRMLyanna running off would be a case of her losing her mind. If you are going to invent her running off you should include that she was campaigning for democracy and votes for women. And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.--GRRMhttp://entertainment...sy-and-history/ Aerys called Tyrion a servant. The Starks were merely subjects.If Rhaegar wanted Lyanna, he would just take her. Jon Snow is actually the son of Howland Reed and Lyanna Stark. consider the story from the Harrenhal Tournament--There was interaction between the two... and she was his knight in shining armor.consider how Howland Reed's wife is suspiciously named JyannaNot sure what a suspicious name is...consider why we haven't heard from or seen HowlandLets see, he sent his children... so we have not seen himconsider what happened at the Tower of JoyYou'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.--GRRMhttp://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy Perhaps Lyanna was desperate to escape her imminent marriage to the unfaithful Robert Baratheon.see above link... never happened Perhaps Lyanna. Benjen , or Brandon Stark schemed a plan with Howland to overthrow Targ rule and allow the Starks to take the throne, but got drastically out of control to the point where Benjen would feel extreme guilt and eventually join the NW? and Howland would go into a state of hermitation?----consider what happened at the Tower of Joy---- Perhaps Rhaegar was incriminated and the real Rhaegar never actually kidnapped Lyanna.----consider what happened at the Tower of Joy----Tywin*I understand where you are coming from. However I disagree, Rhaegar was one to comtemplate honor and and we also know he was trying to fulfill a prophecy. This is a very brief counter-argument but I feel like it's one you've heard many times before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Tywin*I understand where you are coming from. However I disagree, Rhaegar was one to comtemplate honor and and we also know he was trying to fulfill a prophecy. This is a very brief counter-argument but I feel like it's one you've heard many times beforeInteresting that his honoring his spouse was something not worth contemplating. Leaving a discarded spouse as his father's hostage against Dorne is hardly a "polygamous" marriage. He ditched Elia and shacked up with a 15 year old... A prophecy that called for the blood of the dragon... not the blood of the dragon blessed by the old gods or the faith of the seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Interesting that his honoring his spouse was something not worth contemplating. Leaving a discarded spouse as his father's hostage against Dorne is hardly a "polygamous" marriage. He ditched Elia and shacked up with a 15 year old... A prophecy that called for the blood of the dragon... not the blood of the dragon blessed by the old gods or the faith of the seven.What gods would have this ancient prophecy but old ones? Just kidding.I'm sure he contemplated it, but the prophecy was paramount, as it was bigger than any one of them. I'm sure he even questioned his decision himself, but TPTWP as Rhaegar said must be the Song of Ice and Fire. A Northern Mother and a Southron Father creating a child with the blood of the dragon would make more sense. Ancestral blade of House Stark: Ice. Ancestral blade of House Targaryen: Blackfyre.( I understand they do not presently have this sword and relevance of this coincidence? probably none)ETA: Understand this came from a vision, not necessarily meaning it really happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 What gods would have this ancient prophecy but old ones? Just kidding.I'm sure he contemplated it, but the prophecy was paramount, as it was bigger than any one of them. I'm sure he even questioned his decision himself, but TPTWP as Rhaegar said must be the Song of Ice and Fire. A Northern Mother and a Southron Father creating a child with the blood of the dragon would make more sense. Ancestral blade of House Stark: Ice. Ancestral blade of House Targaryen: Blackfyre.( I understand they do not presently have this sword and relevance of this coincidence? probably none)ETA: Understand this came from a vision, not necessarily meaning it really happened.There is nothing about the child being fire and ice... the song is of fire and ice. Aside from Rhaegar stating Aegon would be the prince that was promised we have the dragon must have three heads. a song of ice (widow's wail and oathkeeper) and blackfire... is not so catchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 There is nothing about the child being fire and ice... the song is of fire and ice. Aside from Rhaegar stating Aegon would be the prince that was promised we have the dragon must have three heads. a song of ice (widow's wail and oathkeeper) and blackfire... is not so catchy.The prince that was promised is first mentioned in the House of the Undying when Daenerys Targaryen sees a vision of her brother, Rhaegar, who names his son Aegon, and says, “ He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.[3] ” http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_prince_that_was_promised in the vision he says Aegon is TPTWP and his is the song of ice and fire.Widows Wail and Oathkeeper may yet be reforged into Ice, in a vey Lightbringer-esque way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The prince that was promised is first mentioned in the House of the Undying when Daenerys Targaryen sees a vision of her brother, Rhaegar, who names his son Aegon, and says,“ He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.[3] ”http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_prince_that_was_promised in the vision he says Aegon is TPTWP and his is the song of ice and fire.Widows Wail and Oathkeeper may yet be reforged into Ice, in a vey Lightbringer-esque way in the vision he says Aegon is TPTWP and his is the song of ice and fire.His is the song... not he is the song Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 in the vision he says Aegon is TPTWP and his is the song of ice and fire. His is the song... not he is the song Correct, for a human to be a song would be silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kikajon Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Why wouldn't Lyanna just keep Jon with her?because she died in childbirth??????I feel I am missing/ not understanding something.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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