The Military power of each of the Kingdoms? Past and Future

[Free Northman]

Reach - 100,000

Westerlands - 50,000

North - 45,000

Riverlands - 40,000

Vale - 40,000

Stormlands - 35,000

Dorne - 30,000

Iron Islands - 25,000

Crownlands - 25,000

The Riverlands is almost certainly more populated than the Westerlands. It is a larger region and very fertile, being mostly lush plains and forests watered by a massive riversystem.

The Westerlands in contrast is rather small and covered mostly by hills. I suspect that the narrow coastal plain - where Lannisport is located - is very densely populated to compensate for the rugged hillcountry which is not that suitable for high population numbers. Also, the mining centres probably attract a lot of economic activity, but overall, the Riverlands must be more populated.

Martin himself has stated that the Riverlands are rich and populous.

The Westerlands are unquestionably more powerful than the Riverlands, due to wealth, natural boundaries and defensible location, but in terms of sheer population numbers it is very unlikely that they have more people than the Riverlands.

[The Snowman]

The Westerlands strength is being overrated here. It is a small region, much of it covered by hills and mountains.

Tywin had 20,000 men and Jaime 15,000. Maybe two thirds of Jaime's host was slaugthered, leaving about 5,000 men that fled back in the direction of the Golden Tooth.

Stafford Lannister then raised another host, partly by gathering up the remnants of Jaim's host, and partly by adding the sweepings of Lannisport.

The new host at most numbered about 10,000, of which maybe 5,000 were the remnants of Jaime's host. So it only really added 5,000 new warriors to the initial force of 35,000. Hence, the total Westerland army that was involved in the War of the Five Kings, numbered about 40,000. And this included mercenaries like the Brave Companions, Tyrion's clansmen and other sellswords.

And this already had them down to the sweepings of Lannisport.

In terms of population I'd put the Westerlands below the Riverlands, and below the North as well. But due to their density and wealth, they can raise a larger part of their population in a shorter period of time.

They are probably capable of raising around 45,000 altogether, with the Riverlands at a similar level. Of course, Tywin could bring in 20,000 sellswords from Essos if he wanted to, given his wealth. But in terms of Westerland forces in their own right, I would not put them higher than 45,000.

With the North at 55,000 or more, but unable to gather all of these into a single army very easily.

Reach - 100,000

Westerlands - 50,000

North - 45,000

Riverlands - 40,000

Vale - 40,000

Stormlands - 35,000

Dorne - 30,000

Iron Islands - 25,000

Crownlands - 25,000

I think Free Northman might have right on the whole Lannister power. If you gave Tywin a few months to rally his men and boy swords from Essos he could likely muster 60-70 000 Men.

Also I don't believe the North's full strength is being represented truly throughout the series. The Dustins barely sent anyone and Manderly was instructed to build a navy and strengthen White Harbour considerably during the WOT5K. They say the Umbers are depleted and the Boltons only brought back like 5000 Men. I think its quite likely that there are couple thousand Northman hiding in the Riverlands and Westerlands.

Anyway I think the North has been described as almost mythical and utterly formidable but they could only raise 20 odd thousand men. It just sounds like folly. With sellswords included the Lannisters would obviously .have the 2nd largest army behind the Reach but with Men taken solely from the Westerlands I'd say they would be on the same terms as the Vale and Riverlands at around 40-45 thousand. Which in my mind pushes the North closer to 55 000 but Im assuming we wont know until more facts are given to us,

I wonder how many men the Hightowers could actually raise. It was said that the Redwynes have a fleet of 150-200 warships would mean they could field at least 10 000 men. To have such powerful bannerman I wonder what the Gardeners of old must have had to have at their command to made them kneel. The Florents also must have been quite strong if they were half Gardener at the time of the Conquest. The Reach is interesting in that it has so many powerful families that could vie for supremacy over some greater houses in the kingdoms.

[Batman]

The Riverlands is almost certainly more populated than the Westerlands. It is a larger region and very fertile, being mostly lush plains and forests watered by a massive riversystem.

The Westerlands in contrast is rather small and covered mostly by hills. I suspect that the narrow coastal plain - where Lannisport is located - is very densely populated to compensate for the rugged hillcountry which is not that suitable for high population numbers. Also, the mining centres probably attract a lot of economic activity, but overall, the Riverlands must be more populated.

Martin himself has stated that the Riverlands are rich and populous.

The Westerlands are unquestionably more powerful than the Riverlands, due to wealth, natural boundaries and defensible location, but in terms of sheer population numbers it is very unlikely that they have more people than the Riverlands.

What has made you change you mind about this since the last time you brought this up? I seem to recall you placing the Lannisters at 50,000, the Starks at 50,000 and the Tully's at 40,000.

[Free Northman]

What has made you change you mind about this since the last time you brought this up? I seem to recall you placing the Lannisters at 50,000, the Starks at 50,000 and the Tully's at 40,000.

You are right. I guess I'm in two minds. But I just looked at the Lannister situation a bit more closely. They always seemed overpowered to me, given the smallish size of their lands and its rough geography, but I just accepted it. But I forgot about the fact that Stafford's host was said to contain a lot of the survivors of Jaime's scattered army.

Previously, I assumed that Jaime's army was slaughtered in its entirety, but this does not really fit with the evidence.

Also, the Riverlands really should have a massive army. What got me initially was Renly's conversation with Catelyn, where he said that Robb crossed the Neck with 20,000 men, and Renly's estimate that after adding the Riverlords he should be at about 40,000 men now.

This estimate seemed to indicate that Renly did not rate the Riverlands as having a very large army.

But in hindsight, given Martin's comments about the Riverlands being rich and populous, I guess Renly was basing his comments on strategy meetings he must have had with his key commanders - including the highly capable Randyll Tarly - who would have assessed the Riverlands current strength based on losses they had already suffered to the Lannisters.

Hence this would be reduced from the Riverlands full strength.

In the end, common sense shows us that the Riverlands region stretches from the Sunset Sea at Seagard, to the Narrow Sea at Maidenpool, Saltpans and Duskendale. It is very fertile and is situatied around probably the largest river system in Westeros. It MUST have a huge population.

The Westerlands in contrast is far smaller and mostly hill country. Economic activity probably boosts their population above that of the Vale and the Stormlands, but surely not above that of the large, fertile Riverlands region.

I may be wrong, but that's my current view. (It could change again, of course!).

[The Snowman]

Is this sort of thing going to be shown in further light in The World of Ice and Fire?

Is there any mention of army sizes in the D&E novellas? I haven't read them yet

[Batman]

You are right. I guess I'm in two minds. But I just looked at the Lannister situation a bit more closely. They always seemed overpowered to me, given the smallish size of their lands and its rough geography, but I just accepted it. But I forgot about the fact that Stafford's host was said to contain a lot of the survivors of Jaime's scattered army.

Previously, I assumed that Jaime's army was slaughtered in its entirety, but this does not really fit with the evidence.

Also, the Riverlands really should have a massive army. What got me initially was Renly's conversation with Catelyn, where he said that Robb crossed the Neck with 20,000 men, and Renly's estimate that after adding the Riverlords he should be at about 40,000 men now.

This estimate seemed to indicate that Renly did not rate the Riverlands as having a very large army.

But in hindsight, given Martin's comments about the Riverlands being rich and populous, I guess Renly was basing his comments on strategy meetings he must have had with his key commanders - including the highly capable Randyll Tarly - who would have assessed the Riverlands current strength based on losses they had already suffered to the Lannisters.

Hence this would be reduced from the Riverlands full strength.

In the end, common sense shows us that the Riverlands region stretches from the Sunset Sea at Seagard, to the Narrow Sea at Maidenpool, Saltpans and Duskendale. It is very fertile and is situatied around probably the largest river system in Westeros. It MUST have a huge population.

The Westerlands in contrast is far smaller and mostly hill country. Economic activity probably boosts their population above that of the Vale and the Stormlands, but surely not above that of the large, fertile Riverlands region.

I may be wrong, but that's my current view. (It could change again, of course!).

I go back and forth about the numbers of the Kingdoms as well. The Riverlands are certainley more fertile than the Westerlands. I would how many people are needed to work in the mines that provide all their gold and silver. Given the slowness of the techniques that have been used in the past I imagine that a large number of men would be required.

We know that 2,000 spears and bowmen retreated to the golden tooth but I dont know if they went to Stafford or remained to guard the pass. Does it mention anywhere what portion of Jaimes men retreated to Staffords host or whether he had swept Lannisport of its dregs?

It could go either way. Given that the Riverlords were smashed before they could put their full strength into the field it is difficult to get a good gauge. The bannermen of Harrenhal have fallen a long way since Roberts Rebellion. When Lord Whent ruled they were the most powerful of Tully bannermen but they had no one to organize them during the Lannister invasion.

I think the Crownlands are the most difficult to place. Since House Darklyn was destroyed there seem to be no houses in this area that compare to those from the other kingdoms. On top of that they can call on the large number of poor and homeless men from Kings Landing which is 500,000 strong. Not the finest choice of men, but crows need food too.

[Batman]

Is this sort of thing going to be shown in further light in The World of Ice and Fire?

Is there any mention of army sizes in the D&E novellas? I haven't read them yet

Bloodraven drew 5,000 quick infantry and 500 knights as well as his ravens teeth from the Crownlands and Riverlands but nothing all out

[Ahmrogar]

That's a good point you raise. As I stated just above I would find a little unbelievable to have most of the Northern forces gone. Seriously 18 000 Men go south and thats supposed to be the ultimate power of the Starks.

No, it's not.

Firstly, on SSM he has stated that Robb was gathering his strength fast and that he (and I assume his bannermen) mainly took the cream of the crop, which I assume to be the men of prime age. Now, we know this is false for the Umbers, who took too many, but we're not sure how true this is for the rest of the bannermen, what we do know, however, is that the North has more than that.

We actually know this for a few more reasons, given that when the Ironborn invade they raise a couple of thousand men on short notice to drive back Dagmar Cleftjaw and Theon.

Furthermore, although you do cover this latter, we know Manderly keeps back, well, I'd say a thousand heavy cavalry at a guess...but enough to leave him 'more than any other lord north of the Neck' and Lady Dustin sent as few men as to not rouse suspicion and of course there's the clansmen.

Just there, we have another six thousand men with likely more elsewhere. Now, some of these have died since, and if you wanted to argue quality, I'd concede that. Most of the best men of the North are dead, but there's enough to make another

Seems silly given that Wyman Manderly has built over 50 warships. Even with only 10 per deck thats 5000 men a few thousand heavy horse he has at his command.

Pardon? Unless I'm mistaken your math if off.

That's 500.

10 x 1 = 10

10 x 10 = 100

10 x 50 = 500

Unless you meant they had a hundred men each. In which case I apologise for the typo.

Now, I have no idea how well staffed Manderly's galleys are, or how big, which means they could have anything from, what, fifty men to two hundred a piece?

If Manderly has these types of resources available then the rest of the North should be able to muster at least another 15000 men

But even then, Maderly is both tremendously rich and Lord of White Harbour, a city, which would make him the strongest of the Stark Bannermen. Also, I believe his numbers are being swelled by refugees.

Also, as another excellent poster, I believe it was Free Northman, pointed out Manderly has likely got some of the most fertile land, and the most extensive system of retainers.

Basically, I'd say that of all the Stark bannermen it is Manderly who is best suited to recover from any losses, and he was likely the strongest to begin with, and unlike other bannermen such as the Umbers he didn't send nearly his whole force.

. The Baratheons are in REAL trouble seeing as Storm's End is completely isolated...again and rest of the 'Baratheon' forces as with Stannis who has somethiong like 1500 men with him and likely no more so they look like they're in a bit of trouble unless all those forces are Florents and Men from Dragonstone

I'd expect Stannis has a mix of Florents and Stormlanders, following the deserting of most of his army.

. But it seems like Aegon was having a fun time of it seizing several castles in a day including the Griffin's Roost and seemed pretty confident of taking Storm's End without too much trouble. The Lannisters have enemies on all sides so they might be a touch of trouble. The Vale will be fine and Dorne will probably ally with Aegon if Dany doesn;t hurry herself up. The Reach doesn't seem to back the horse in a race unless they believe 100% they will win so when confronted by Aegon with the Golden Company and Dorne by his side also with the Ironborn continuing to attack the Reach they may simply just toss the Lannisters and Tommen aside and join Aegon.

Haha, another marriage for Margaery?

I think Free Northman might have right on the whole Lannister power. If you gave Tywin a few months to rally his men and boy swords from Essos he could likely muster 60-70 000 Men.

Also I don't believe the North's full strength is being represented truly throughout the series. The Dustins barely sent anyone and Manderly was instructed to build a navy and strengthen White Harbour considerably during the WOT5K. They say the Umbers are depleted and the Boltons only brought back like 5000 Men. I think its quite likely that there are couple thousand Northman hiding in the Riverlands and Westerlands.

That would, I think, be optimistic.

What Northmen are left south of the Neck will be mainly broken men.

Anyway I think the North has been described as almost mythical and utterly formidable but they could only raise 20 odd thousand men. It just sounds like folly. With sellswords included the Lannisters would obviously .have the 2nd largest army behind the Reach but with Men taken solely from the Westerlands I'd say they would be on the same terms as the Vale and Riverlands at around 40-45 thousand. Which in my mind pushes the North closer to 55 000 but Im assuming we wont know until more facts are given to us,

There's a lot of speculation here, to be honest I don't think anyone really knows, maybe not even Martin himself. He's deliberately left a lot of stuff blank, if you go by real world scenarios, the North should have, hell, a hundred thousand fighting men at least.

But then again, Westeros is bareboned at times, given that there are only five cities in the whole continent and a handful of major castles per geographical area.

So there's points where you can think, and points where you have to take it as written and points where you can combine the two.

On the Riverlands, I'm really not sure how they didn't have more fighting men. Maybe it is simply because they fought the Lannisters twice, were beaten soundly twice, had their host bled away to counter Tywin's raiding and then suffered Tywin's bloody swathe of destruction.

They were hit too hard to be able to stand up again.

I wonder how many men the Hightowers could actually raise. It was said that the Redwynes have a fleet of 150-200 warships would mean they could field at least 10 000 men. To have such powerful bannerman I wonder what the Gardeners of old must have had to have at their command to made them kneel.

Well, that is the strength of the Reach now. I'd guess all the kingdoms are far stronger now than they had been.

Basically, I don't think the Redwynes had two hundred warships three hundred years ago, and even if they did, two hundred ships does not equal the number of crew in adequate fighting men.

Men under arms, perhaps, but such men would lack discipline and skill with arms, assuming the weapons could be found for all of them.

To say nothing of weather they are crewed by free rowers or slaves.

The Hightowers seem pretty passive to me, I'd not be surprised if they paid lip service to a king and did their own thing, it's what they seem to do with Mace and Renly.

They are content to keep their power.

The Florents also must have been quite strong if they were half Gardener at the time of the Conquest. The Reach is interesting in that it has so many powerful families that could vie for supremacy over some greater houses in the kingdoms.

The Florents are strong, and may have been stronger previously.

You are right. I guess I'm in two minds. But I just looked at the Lannister situation a bit more closely. They always seemed overpowered to me, given the smallish size of their lands and its rough geography, but I just accepted it. But I forgot about the fact that Stafford's host was said to contain a lot of the survivors of Jaime's scattered army.

I don't recall that, where was it said? I thought retreated to the Golden Tooth?

Previously, I assumed that Jaime's army was slaughtered in its entirety, but this does not really fit with the evidence.

Especially as we know one of the camps retreated in good order.

Also, the Riverlands really should have a massive army. What got me initially was Renly's conversation with Catelyn, where he said that Robb crossed the Neck with 20,000 men, and Renly's estimate that after adding the Riverlords he should be at about 40,000 men now.

This estimate seemed to indicate that Renly did not rate the Riverlands as having a very large army.

But in hindsight, given Martin's comments about the Riverlands being rich and populous, I guess Renly was basing his comments on strategy meetings he must have had with his key commanders - including the highly capable Randyll Tarly - who would have assessed the Riverlands current strength based on losses they had already suffered to the Lannisters.

Hence this would be reduced from the Riverlands full strength.

Most likely.

In the end, common sense shows us that the Riverlands region stretches from the Sunset Sea at Seagard, to the Narrow Sea at Maidenpool, Saltpans and Duskendale. It is very fertile and is situatied around probably the largest river system in Westeros. It MUST have a huge population.

The Westerlands in contrast is far smaller and mostly hill country. Economic activity probably boosts their population above that of the Vale and the Stormlands, but surely not above that of the large, fertile Riverlands region.

I may be wrong, but that's my current view. (It could change again, of course!).

I'd say this was true, it's probably not true anymore as my impression is that the riverlands have been well and truly ravaged by sucessive waves of armies and broken men.

As for the Westlands, I always assumed their economic strength, which I take as pound-for-pound the strongest, must enable them to employ a much bigger population than their land would otherwise be able to handle. Perhaps they ship in their food?

Plus, if there's one thing we know about Tywin it's that he was an able administrator.

Of course, as a final note, it's generally worth mentioning that in a feudal system it's not just how many men live in the land, but it's how well those men will answer their lords call, and how well their lords well answer the call of their lord, and so on.

Thus, the efficiency of the system and the loyalty of vassals are both big factors in determining the overall size of recruits. It's possible that Tywin was able to inspire a better level of attendance in his own men, perhaps through discipline, perhaps through fear.

[The Snowman]

Bloodraven drew 5,000 quick infantry and 500 knights as well as his ravens teeth from the Crownlands and Riverlands but nothing all out

Doesn't the next D&E book cover the Skaagosi rebellion so maybe we'll see some more Stark numbers as well as other things

[The Snowman]

No, it's not.

Firstly, on SSM he has stated that Robb was gathering his strength fast and that he (and I assume his bannermen) mainly took the cream of the crop, which I assume to be the men of prime age. Now, we know this is false for the Umbers, who took too many, but we're not sure how true this is for the rest of the bannermen, what we do know, however, is that the North has more than that.

We actually know this for a few more reasons, given that when the Ironborn invade they raise a couple of thousand men on short notice to drive back Dagmar Cleftjaw and Theon.

Furthermore, although you do cover this latter, we know Manderly keeps back, well, I'd say a thousand heavy cavalry at a guess...but enough to leave him 'more than any other lord north of the Neck' and Lady Dustin sent as few men as to not rouse suspicion and of course there's the clansmen.

Just there, we have another six thousand men with likely more elsewhere. Now, some of these have died since, and if you wanted to argue quality, I'd concede that. Most of the best men of the North are dead, but there's enough to make another

to inspire a better level of attendance in his own men, perhaps through discipline, perhaps through fear.

So that would mean that the North has close to 30 000 Men available to fight? If our total predictions are correct. What I'm a little confused about is why Robb didn't send for reinforcements once he was in a war.

Pardon? Unless I'm mistaken your math if off.

That's 500.

10 x 1 = 10

10 x 10 = 100

10 x 50 = 500

Unless you meant they had a hundred men each. In which case I apologise for the typo.

Now, I have no idea how well staffed Manderly's galleys are, or how big, which means they could have anything from, what, fifty men to two hundred a piece?

Yeah I wasn't sure what I was trying to say. 100 per ship seems a bit extreme to be sure but hey its westeros normal rules dont apply

But even then, Maderly is both tremendously rich and Lord of White Harbour, a city, which would make him the strongest of the Stark Bannermen. Also, I believe his numbers are being swelled by refugees.

Also, as another excellent poster, I believe it was Free Northman, pointed out Manderly has likely got some of the most fertile land, and the most extensive system of retainers.

Basically, I'd say that of all the Stark bannermen it is Manderly who is best suited to recover from any losses, and he was likely the strongest to begin with, and unlike other bannermen such as the Umbers he didn't send nearly his whole force.

So that would reinforce my statement that the other Northern houses could muster at least 15000 Men and then Manderly's on top of that?

I'd expect Stannis has a mix of Florents and Stormlanders, following the deserting of most of his army.

Haha, another marriage for Margaery?

So could that mean that the Stormlands does have something to offer in the future?

Aegon/JonCon captured 3 or 4 castles with relative ease and thought taking Storm's End would be a piece of cake, nothing like blind confidence. Probably means Aegon will die.

That would, I think, be optimistic. What Northman are left south of the Neck will be mainly broken men

I'm talking absolute MAX using a lot of money for sellswords and really good Free Companies such as the Golden Company

Why would they be broken. Bolton loft something like 700 men behind to hold a garrison while he went to the RW and then nothing is heard of them afterwards

There's a lot of speculation here, to be honest I don't think anyone really knows, maybe not even Martin himself. He's deliberately left a lot of stuff blank, if you go by real world scenarios, the North should have, hell, a hundred thousand fighting men at least.

But then again, Westeros is bareboned at times, given that there are only five cities in the whole continent and a handful of major castles per geographical area.

So there's points where you can think, and points where you have to take it as written and points where you can combine the two.

On the Riverlands, I'm really not sure how they didn't have more fighting men. Maybe it is simply because they fought the Lannisters twice, were beaten soundly twice, had their host bled away to counter Tywin's raiding and then suffered Tywin's bloody swathe of destruction.

They were hit too hard to be able to stand up again.

Yeah its a little odd. I made another topic about why the North doesn't have city or large port on its west coast to hold a navy to tackle the Ironborn and to also boost trade to Lannisport and Oldtown. I think the Riverlands have just been beaten to a pulp too many times.

Well, that is the strength of the Reach now. I'd guess all the kingdoms are far stronger now than they had been.

Basically, I don't think the Redwynes had two hundred warships three hundred years ago, and even if they did, two hundred ships does not equal the number of crew in adequate fighting men.

Men under arms, perhaps, but such men would lack discipline and skill with arms, assuming the weapons could be found for all of them.

To say nothing of weather they are crewed by free rowers or slaves.

The Hightowers seem pretty passive to me, I'd not be surprised if they paid lip service to a king and did their own thing, it's what they seem to do with Mace and Renly.

They are content to keep their power.

just chilling in Oldtown being awesome

The Florents are strong, and may have been stronger previously.

So how many of the Florents are with Stannis and how many are back in the Reach?

[Batman]

Doesn't the next D&E book cover the Skaagosi rebellion so maybe we'll see some more Stark numbers as well as other things

I am sure that some numbers will be mentioned but I doubt the full force of the North was against them. Lord Stark may have wished that he took the full force to Skagos. I am also curious what the North did for ships since they have had no force at sea since Brandon the Burner. Sellsails probably, although I hope its more interesting than that.

[King Aerys the Just]

I am sure that some numbers will be mentioned but I doubt the full force of the North was against them. Lord Stark may have wished that he took the full force to Skagos. I am also curious what the North did for ships since they have had no force at sea since Brandon the Burner. Sellsails probably, although I hope its more interesting than that.

I don't think the Skaagosi had much of a fleet either, so the Starks could just have commandeered some trade ships from White Harbor to ferry them troops over.

[The Snowman]

I don't think the Skaagosi had much of a fleet either, so the Starks could just have commandeered some trade ships from White Harbor to ferry them troops over.

Seems silly that the North doesn't have a war fleet...like seriously cmon Starks get your shit together. Well having to pay the Iron Throne taxes wouldn't help.

Im pretty sure everyone else has a sizeable war fleet maybe except the Riverlands who I think would be more into trading ships

[King Aerys the Just]

Seems silly that the North doesn't have a war fleet...like seriously cmon Starks get your shit together. Well having to pay the Iron Throne taxes wouldn't help.

Im pretty sure everyone else has a sizeable war fleet maybe except the Riverlands who I think would be more into trading ships

I suspect there may well be a geopolitical reason for that. Due to the incredible defensive capabilities of Moat Cailin, the only good way of invading the North is by sea. If the Starks had had a capable navy during the reign of the Targaryens, a rebellion of theirs in the North would have been almost impossible to put down.

So the explanation for why the Starks haven't gotten themselves a war fleet until now would be that they simply weren't allowed to, by the Crown.

By the way I don't think that either the Vale or Dorne had any navies either, at least we have never heard of them. The reasons for that may be similar. Besides, the Royal Fleet that was split between Stannis and Joffrey during the war was pretty damn huge, and should have easily sufficed for keeping the east coast of Westeros safe during normal times.

[Free Northman]

I suspect there may well be a geopolitical reason for that. Due to the incredible defensive capabilities of Moat Cailin, the only good way of invading the North is by sea. If the Starks had had a capable navy during the reign of the Targaryens, a rebellion of theirs in the North would have been almost impossible to put down.

So the explanation for why the Starks haven't gotten themselves a war fleet until now would be that they simply weren't allowed to, by the Crown.

By the way I don't think that either the Vale or Dorne had any navies either, at least we have never heard of them. The reasons for that may be similar. Besides, the Royal Fleet that was split between Stannis and Joffrey during the war was pretty damn huge, and should have easily sufficed for keeping the east coast of Westeros safe during normal times.

My analysis puts it down to the taxes paid to the Iron Throne. In Brandon the Shipwright's day, all the northern taxes were paid to Winterfell. They had their own Mint in White Harbor, which minted the northern coinage with the King in the North's head on it.

Since the Conquest, all these taxes are paid over to King's Landing, without anything being earned in return. As an example just by keeping the export taxes from White Harbor back from the Iron Throne, Manderly is able to build a navy of 50 warships within a year.

Since the North was paying all of these taxes to the Targaryens, the least they could expect in return was probably that their naval problems would be taken care of by the Throne from now on.

So to summarize: If the North can keep their own taxes, they can build and maintain a big warfleet with that money. Which Manderly is busy doing right now.

[The Snowman]

I suspect there may well be a geopolitical reason for that. Due to the incredible defensive capabilities of Moat Cailin, the only good way of invading the North is by sea. If the Starks had had a capable navy during the reign of the Targaryens, a rebellion of theirs in the North would have been almost impossible to put down.

So the explanation for why the Starks haven't gotten themselves a war fleet until now would be that they simply weren't allowed to, by the Crown.

By the way I don't think that either the Vale or Dorne had any navies either, at least we have never heard of them. The reasons for that may be similar. Besides, the Royal Fleet that was split between Stannis and Joffrey during the war was pretty damn huge, and should have easily sufficed for keeping the east coast of Westeros safe during normal times.

Was more thinking about the west coast. The East coast has White Harbour, Gulltown & King's Landing but the North has nothing on its east coast besides those pesky Ironborn

My analysis puts it down to the taxes paid to the Iron Throne. In Brandon the Shipwright's day, all the northern taxes were paid to Winterfell. They had their own Mint in White Harbor, which minted the northern coinage with the King in the North's head on it.

Since the Conquest, all these taxes are paid over to King's Landing, without anything being earned in return. As an example just by keeping the export taxes from White Harbor back from the Iron Throne, Manderly is able to build a navy of 50 warships within a year.

Since the North was paying all of these taxes to the Targaryens, the least they could expect in return was probably that their naval problems would be taken care of by the Throne from now on.

So to summarize: If the North can keep their own taxes, they can build and maintain a big warfleet with that money. Which Manderly is busy doing right now.

That's well said

I think that if money abiding the Northman could have the most powerful fleet in the realm as they have the greatest source of wood and if they allied with Braavos they wouldn't be troubled.

Could you actually imagine an alliance between an independent Northern Kingdom and Braavos?

They're only weakness would be lack of dragons and the need for a navy would would be built quickly and easily if Free Northman is fact correct about those taxes.

Just something on the southern kingdoms (especially the Westerlands and Riverlands), they seem to be just way too easy to invade. I think its time for The Great Wall of Westeros 2.0 separating the Westerlands/Crownlands from the Vale and Riverlands and of course the North.

Having something like that would be the only way the I believe a North/Riverlands/Vale Kingdom could work and effectively defend itself

[Free Northman]

Was more thinking about the west coast. The East coast has White Harbour, Gulltown & King's Landing but the North has nothing on its east coast besides those pesky Ironborn

The West coast is essentially a road to nowhere. You've got to remember that the East Coast is the link to the Free Cities of Essos, while the West has just the Sunset Sea.

I would agree that there should be a number of Saltpans or even Duskendale sized settlements there, but nothing of the size of White Harbor.

[King Aerys the Just]

My analysis puts it down to the taxes paid to the Iron Throne. In Brandon the Shipwright's day, all the northern taxes were paid to Winterfell. They had their own Mint in White Harbor, which minted the northern coinage with the King in the North's head on it.

Since the Conquest, all these taxes are paid over to King's Landing, without anything being earned in return. As an example just by keeping the export taxes from White Harbor back from the Iron Throne, Manderly is able to build a navy of 50 warships within a year.

Since the North was paying all of these taxes to the Targaryens, the least they could expect in return was probably that their naval problems would be taken care of by the Throne from now on.

So to summarize: If the North can keep their own taxes, they can build and maintain a big warfleet with that money. Which Manderly is busy doing right now.

That probably also contributed to the situation, yeah.

Was more thinking about the west coast. The East coast has White Harbour, Gulltown & King's Landing but the North has nothing on its east coast besides those pesky Ironborn

As I've said before, they have Barrowton. It's on the west coast, or at least connected to it by waterways. There's no reason for why they couldn't base a couple of galleys there as well, if it became necessary. You've got to remember though, that the Ironborn have been mostly peaceful since Aegon landed. Not to mention that both the Lannisters and Redwynes had navies that would have patrolled those waters.

[The Snowman]

As I've said before, they have Barrowton. It's on the west coast, or at least connected to it by waterways. There's no reason for why they couldn't base a couple of galleys there as well, if it became necessary. You've got to remember though, that the Ironborn have been mostly peaceful since Aegon landed. Not to mention that both the Lannisters and Redwynes had navies that would have patrolled those waters.

Could get a bit crowded I suppose. Maybe I just want a Northern fleet to destroy the Ironborn, I just want that.

[Free Northman]

I agree that the North should have at least 30-50 or so longships patrolling a western coastline about 1500 miles long.

Especially considering all the fishing villages along the Stony Shore that make a living off the Sea.