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  1. 1. I think Kelhuss made a deal with Ajokli to give him the power to stop the Consult, and Ajokli being Ajokli played the long con on him. 2. Mimara is the prophet that Kelhuss pretended to be, she was there to witness the end of the world and potentially to be the Sarah Connor or even the John Connor of Earwa, as for her journey there she is now one of the few scions of the royal family left, I feel she is now the linchpin of humanities struggle during the Second Apocalypse. 3. Akka's quest was to protect the maturation of the worlds true prophet, his skepticism along with his heart ushered prodded her to come to terms both with herself and the power she had. He is the holy tutor as he has always been. 4. Why is anything in a work of fiction necessary? These are the straits that this world has presented the Great Ordeal, Agongorea is an utterly dead land and the Consult pulled the sranc and Bashrag from it for that specific purpose, the very world was the Consult's weapon. 5. Kelhuss has always cared about Esme, from TTT with Kelhuss's internal monologue he sees her walking across a ruined wall and when she seemingly slips Kelhuss catches his breath. During the conversation between Maithanet and Inrilatas the boy mentions that Kelhuss's treatment of his mad children is an arc instead of a straight line because he wished to mollify Esme's heart. He says as much during his flight back tot he Ordeal, but when a chronic liar finally speaks the truth none believe them. In a sense he is the ultimate cuckold of the series, the man who can anything and anyone only truly wants to end the Consult and wants Esmenet, and in the end he gets neither because he is just a man. When he speaks to Akka for the last time he tells him to return to his women, meaning Esme and Mim, he conceded that for all of his power they both chose Akka over him. 6. Now that I cannot say, at first it seemed they simply were misguided worldborn and a jealous God that blindly sought to destroy a threat to their power. But with the ending they may have simply been the most wise after all. 7. No idea, the lack of the Consult was my biggest gripe with the series, the secrets of the Consult have to be front and certain in the No-God. That may be a mystery solved in the next series. 8. Possibly, but it would just be wild speculation either way. 9. She was being followed after the skinspy discovered her true name because she was Anasurimbor, the Synthese said it was right to protect her because all prophecies had to be respected the false as well as the true. She was a Anasarimbor by marriage not blood, the Celmomian prophecy that the Consult seemed to went all in on required an Anasurimbor to work. And they were not going to take a chance that it was her instead of Kelhuss, with something that important there was no reason to risk it just because you believe you are right, you are dealing with Gods, time loops and the Outside after all. 10. see above 11. There is no proof that they specifically needed an Anasurimbor, Nau Cayuti worked once before and the Celmomian prophecy hinted that one of his seed would return at the end, so they assumed Kelhuss was it. Bakker said Kayutas would not have worked, so it was something unique about those souls and not their blood. 12. They are using technology that they never truly understood and now could not repair, the Object seemed to be the center of their plans for disenchanting the world and even on previous worlds it could not fulfill its function. A soul is not something they could manufacture except by chance, for example the skinspy that infiltrated Atyersus. Now a machine that you do not fully understand and requires something that you cannot make forces you to try brute tactics, coupled with their lack of morality feeding whole nations into the Carapace until one fit was a sound strategy until the Dunyain latched onto the Celmomian prophecy. 13. I think they simply returned to their old ways except now that they decimated the North their are very view ensouled beings in their environs and the process has been much slowed from before the Apocalypse. And it seems to me that the Consult is not as great as it once was until the coming of the Dunyain, the Nonmen among them were erratic but it would seem that the Inchorio had a similar malady, Aurang seems to not be able to remember his past like ages were discarded as too heavy like old cassettes. And Shae was seemingly the only human to survive from the Mangaecca, he fought Seswatha in some form during the First Apocalypse. SO his mental faculties were unknown, but the injection of the dunyain may have saved a foundering ship. 14. I think it was the same plan as always, the Insertant into the Carapace was always the their greatest weakness, without their technology the No-God and its control of the weapon races was their only recourse. The Tekne was their only recourse and even the creation of the skinspies seems to be a last gasp of a spent cause. Although the skinspies seems to have believed the advent of the No-God was close during the Holy War. 15. I think he was telling the truth, he was no prophet, but I think he made a deal with Ajokli and he had plans beyond the Consult that would involve the Outside. Bakker hinted that Kelhuss believed that the God could be reached by going through the Outside, although he was wrong. Although I could be wrong about what exactly Bakker said. 16. No idea, that is a question still to be answered for the No-God. 17. No idea, but I suspect it has something to do with the God of God and its true motivations. 18. It would seem so, it has shown remarkable accuracy in showing the sordid details of a souls life, from seeing the damnation of the scalpers to the truth of Cnauir's life, and the way she could not stand to look at the Ark because of the crimes committed their. So something is looking through her and it allowed her to change the chorea in Cil-Aujus, but the ultimate end of that watcher is still to be determined, it may be the true Benjuka player of Earwa. 19. It looks to be that way, Kelhuss even comments about the way the souls continually switch positions with each other. 20. It seems that he could not lead him directly but he could obscure the true extent of their bond, so Kelhuss being a Dunyain would not think themselves deluded by someone else. So all events would inevitably lead them both to the Golden Room where he could possess the mark, but it also speaks to the strange nature of Ajokli. If the Gods are blind to the Ark but Ajokli had a loop to the heart of the Golden Room, then maybe the cryptic statement of the Narindar that the White Luck Warrior killed speaks to how he circumvented the limits of the other Gods. By making a deal with Kelhuss he could see some of the Consult. 21. I think for two reasons, the first reason is that they had Dunyain arrogance and believed that he would be able to survive the trap if not a good portion of his army. They had no way of knowing his plan for Dagliash and so he would simply need to be a Dunyain and find a way to survive. And the second is their reliance on the Celmomian prophecy, if it is truly from the Gods or the future then Kelhuss was fated to find his way to Golgotterath and fulfill his destiny. They were right about this but wrong on the subject as it was Kelmommas that was fated. 22. Simply to bloody the Ordeal so that it would not overwhelm them when they inevitably got to the Ark. Circumstance had to be managed as best they could, luck is skill mixed with preparation. 23. I think it was two ways, first one of the founding members of the Consult was Cet' Ingira a famed Ishoriol Quya hero. He never forgot what he saw in the Inverse Fire and s he could have been slowly turning some of his brothers as they succumbed to the Dolour. And secondly he stated that the entirety of the Viri nation had turned to the Inchoroi during the Cuno-Inchori wars, and when they came to Ishteribinth seeking refuge they would still have been wedded to the Inchoroi cause, that may be why Nil' Giccas had ordered the death Nil' Ciljiras before they fled back to the Ark. 24. I think those in Nil' Ciljiras's inner circle knew something of the Dunyain, that is how they were swayed to send the Quya that destroyed Ishual. Harapior seemed to have some knowledge of the Serwa's abilities so the Dunyain that now controlled the Consult would have told them something about what Dunyain were capable of. 25. There is further writing in the expanded glossary about it but that story may be for the next series. 26. No idea, the Dreams would still seem to hold some secrets for the next series. 27. Seemingly Seswatha but the way they changed for Akka speaks of something deeper going on. 28. They seem to be very accurate so far, but they have only shown us limited information so far. Only those times when the Dreams change has some of their contents not been accurate. 29. That is still a mystery, it would seem if it is Seswatha's soul somehow sending the Dreams then their insistent focus on Nau-Cayuti could have been a father focusing on his only son. Or rather it could be Seswatha trying to give the Mandate a clue that it was Nau-Cayuti that now powered the Sarcophagus. I do not think it was specifically Anasurimbor blood that was needed, the fact that Nau-Cayuti and Kelmommas may not have even been distantly related speaks to this fact, only the dimensions of the soul mattered.
  2. What questions did you have that were not answered?
  3. People have still not said what is so disastrous about the AMA? They keep saying it but not exactly what was so bad about it.
  4. What do you mean Esme was pointless? She literally gave birth to the No-God and a new prophet, she authored the chain of events that led to the Second Apocalypse. People are speaking about a lack of closure for some arcs, i think that a lot of these questions were left unanswered because this is the cliffhanger. Mimara and Akka, Moenghus, koringhus junior, Meppa they are all going to be important for the next series. The first series was about the Holy war and it wrapped at Shimeh, this series was about the great ordeal and it's failure, now all of the narrative threads from the first two all merge in the third. But one thing that confuses me is all this talk about the ama, I read it and some of your responses to it seems really strange. Exactly what about it was so troubling?
  5. These Bakker threads have become unbearable, the same few people talking about how much they hate everything about the book and most especially the author. It seems to have ran everybody else off, all discussion now seems pointless.
  6. I read the book last week and since then I have digesting my thoughts on the book, at first just like with The Great Ordeal I did not know how I felt about the book. The density of all that is learned must be mulled over rather than simply spewing random words about my feelings. I have been struck by the seemingly mixed reaction to the book, I have thinking about why that is. For me it seems that people who have not liked the book have talked like this book was supposed to end things rather than being the cliffhanger ending that the author intended it to be. People have been saying things like why have they been reading the series all these years for this ending, that it has all been a waste of their time. Like they were not reading because they liked the series but because they have invested so much time and now they want some kind of payoff for their efforts. RSB has said for years that The Unholy Consult is a sort of Gordian knot that would cinch all of Earwa’s plot threads into one thing. The more that I have thought about the book the more that I have liked it, the more that I am starting to love it in fact and while The White Luck Warrior is my favorite this is a great book. For want of a better metaphor this book and the Aspect-Emperor series in general is the Empire strikes back part of the Second Apocalypse, a trilogy of trilogies. The first part in the Prince of Nothing the good guys prevail initially like Luke destroying the Death Star, but in the second part the bad guys up and deal a mighty blow to the good guys, Luke is maimed and is shattered by the revelation of Darth Vader as his father, Han Solo is captured and sent off, Lando betrays his friends. It is easily the darkest of those movies and this series is simply the second act where the bad guys appear to be triumphant over their enemies. If this was not the simply the end of the second act it would change the series but the ending is still to come. One complaint I have seen is that the Mimara storyline and the Judging Eye have not meant anything to the story since she did nothing to Kellhuss or gaze on him with it. But I think that this is the wrong way to look at her story, she like everyone else thought the whole world hung upon Kellhuss and now that crutch has been kicked away. As I said this series is interconnected and her story is greater than simply her step father and his plans. In Mimara we saw the ascension of the first true prophet in an at least an age, maybe more if Fane or Sejenus were not in fact prophets. She travels with the Eye of God within her and she will be pivotal in the next series. She also appears to have given birth to some kind of chosen one or savior since when she looked upon him the Eye went blind, indeed it may be the God of God’s has snuck into this world similar to Ajokli. In fact Akka mentions it in the Great Ordeal that he is in fact walking with the God of God’s when he is walking with her. Now Esmenet’s story was always the most boring storyline in the Aspect Emperor series, the whole New Empire plot seemed to have no impact upon the wider world. But now it seems crucial to what is going to happen in the overall story arc. It now seems that little old Esmenet is just as important if not even more so than Kellhuss. It was she who gave birth to the newest prophet who will see the world in the time of the resurrected No-God and the grandchild who may be its ultimate savior. She also gave birth to the No-God itself, without her none of these greater events would seem to have happened. It was she who kept Akka in Sumna when he first encountered the Consult, that forced him to flee that place when he was told to follow the holy war by the Mandate, which in turn led him to Proyas and thence Kellhuss and Cnaiur. It was her love and then the snatching away of that love which forced Akka into exile and then her love which prevented his execution, and her stories about him which led Mimara to him thence her pregnancy and her journey to prophethood. And now the No-God itself is her youngest child who is half Dunyain and whose only true love is her, she freed him which led to his eventually becoming the No-God. Maybe being half Dunyain will make it smarter than last time but if that is true than maybe its love for Esmenet might still also come through. The Moenghus storyline is also not so much about the Aspect-Emperor series but in fact the series that follows, the ultimate act of the Second Apocalypse series. Now you have a man who is in the son of both Kellhuss the aspect emperor and Cnauir the most violent of all men, born of one but raised by the other, finally his love for his Dunyain family is broken but he is still mostly sane and his love for humanity and for his father’s goals of stopping the second apocalypse are still there. Cnauir melded all of the Scylvendi into one during the twenty years he ruled the steppe, it would take a generation for the tribes to mature a generation of fighters and he stamped out all opposition who would challenge his rule and in fact the Scylvendi seem to have come to think of him as a sort of holy figure, a sort of dark inversion of Kellhuss himself. Now Moenghus controls and their terror of his father will see him through at first, but he is a mighty warrior in his own right already and he only need to be cunning and his position will become secure. He is now in control of the most vicious and yet committed army left in the armies of humans, the Scyvendi have been melded into a mighty spear and now they will fight for humanity this time. Moenghus is a descendant the greatest Scylvendi heroe’s from Uthgai to Cnauir, and he also loves Esmenet as his mother so there will be cooperation with whoever is left in the Kellian Empire. The journey of Mimara and Akka also had other fruits that have yet to ripen on the vine, the discovery of the descendants of Kellhuss in Ishual will have a wide ranging impact on the story. If the goal of the Dunyain is to breed each generation to the limit of their abilities so with each generation they get closer to the Absolute then it would stand to reason that since Kellhuss was a prodigy among the brethren and Koringhus astounded his teachers and the consensus seems that he was nearest the Absolute by the boy. Then it would stand to reason that the boy is even greater than both his father and his grandfather, the only reason that he was declared defective by the Assessor was because emotion had too much of his soul. Which for the Brethren meant that the Darkness had too much of him and he would be made into a captive in the Unmasking Room for others to study his darkness. Unlike all other Dunyain he was raised by a father who in his own stuttering way loved the boy, in fact he risked his life to bring into the labrynith and then risked more than all others to raise him, what they must have thought as the greatest scion of Ishual succumbed to such a strange darkness as paternal responsibility, but I guess they had their own problems at the time. Now he has been exposed to both the new prophet and a gnostic sorcerer and he is running around the north, I believe the reason that he was not mentioned in this book was because that he is a seed for the final installments of this sees, a full Dunyain who has not banished all emotion and has even been raised by a father to the exclusion of most other Dunyain practices. It is not known if he is one of the Few, but either way I believe he will come to play a central role in the next series. Another character that seemed to disappear from the last book was Meppa, the last Cishaurim who was not killed by Kellhuss. He was outside of the city when the quake hit and I doubt that he drowned on a flat plain where he was. Another seed for the next series to grow later on, he can feel the birth of the No-God and can see the world in ways that no other human could during the last apocalypse. Now unmoored from the Fanim cause by the obvious truth of the second apocalypse, the world will need his ocean of water. The Nonmen arc was another that was left hanging in the book, were the Quya who came to help the Ordeal the last of the race, or were they simply the fastest of the race who could get to the horns in time to help. Even now the wayward and the Intact will know of the No-God’s rebirth and so will unite to fight against it. The question now is how many of them still survive after the battle within the mountain. Only the Red Ghoul Sujara-Nin died in the attack and since they walk the sky they would presumably be able to outrun the horde if they went south instead of east like the Ordealmen. Now Zeum like the Scyvendi has been a great unknown during this series, the largest single nation and the only one that has been left intact by the Great Ordeal and the Unification wars. Reading the appendices they were not involved in the last apocalypse, but now I think and Wert has said that RSB has said they will play a big role in the next series. An intact nation that has the arms and the sorcerous might to lead what is left of humanity in the dark days ahead. It will be cool to see the Mbimayu school and any other Zeumi school with their reliance on the Iswazi doctrine in the next series, they had only a single glimpse with Malowebi. Another great spear for humanity with which to fight the coming apocalypse. Akka has no certain role in the next series, his age makes him likely to die, but he is like I think Cassandra the woman who in greek myth was cursed with always knowing the truth of what would happen but no one would ever believe her. His first appearance in the series is his dream of the disaster at Eleneot and the death of Celmommas, and now his last words in this series are the announcement of the resumption of the second apocalypse. Like with Proyas, in the last book there is the scene where Proyas is a boy who climbs a great tree only to lose his grip and the fall to earth is likely to kill only for Akka to show up and reach out his hand. But the stubborn boy will not take his hand out of spite and pride, saying that he would rather die than accept his help and risk his soul. And the boy drops before Akka’s eyes to the earth, breaking bones but not his head. Only later for him to scale the much greater and much more treacherous tree of Kellhuss and the Thousandfold Thought, Akka tried to save him from his clutches only for Proyas to cast him out in religious zeal thinking himself pious once again. This time he did not plummet ot earth but was cast into the Pit of Hell for all eternity and once again Akka could not save him. None of the Three Seas believed him when he tried to warn them of the apocalypse only for them to believe them when Kellhuss had grasped them, then when he spurned Kellhuss they again did not believe his claims. Even Mimara did not believe him until it was shown to her by the Eye of God within her. Now all the world will believe him when he says the second apocalypse has finally arrived. I wonder about the identities of the Mutilated, I have always thought that the Anasurimbor’s were the sons of Finwe from the Silmarillion. Kellhuss was Feanor the greatest of all the elves in mind and body, who led the elves in their war against Morgoth and his northern fortress. He was killed by his own hubris and yet bid his children to continue the fight no matter the cost. I think that Maithanet is Fingolfin the second brother and the physically strongest of the brothers, it was said many times that Maitha was strong as a bull. I wondered if there was another brother left in Ishual who would be akin to Finarfin, the one brother who did not leave the Blessed Lands and that hope seemed to be dashed when we learned of the total destruction of Ishual and the Dunyain cult. Now I am not so sure, it would be great if one or mother of the Mutilated was in fact the brother of Kellhuss, and in fact they call him brother many times when they tried to subsume him. It may be what the Dunyain call each other in principle or it may be a clue, or even both. And it has been another contention of mine that Maitha probably has some children hidden in Sumna, it would make sense to have some insurance plans in place and since he was already half Dunyain the genetic bottleneck that his brother experienced would not be there for him, he had his own realm in Sumna as the Shriah and would have plenty of opportunity to prosecute his own plans, or maybe Kellhuss instructed him to spread his seed. Now I do not think this was perfect, my two biggest complaints about this book were the crossing of the Field Appalling, and the destruction of the old Consult. It was a slog to get through the looming depravity that I could see coming when the Meat ran out, but it went on too long for my tastes. I was like the kid going to disneyland screaming to my parents are we there yet? The prospect of Golgotterath on the horizon and we are dealing with crazed sranc-men frustrated me, but he payoff was so much more the greater when they finally did battle. A naked Cet’ Ingira cursing the Ordealmen as fools was great, I just wish there was so much more of him. In this series I think we get a grand total of four scenes with him and two were at the end of this book. His encounter with Kellhuss outside Sobel, him torturing Seswatha on Dagliash in the beginning of TTT, and the gate scene then him in the Golden Room. That a my biggest disappointment with the book, the lack of the old Consult. They have been made out to be great for so long and then for them to be old destroyed in a flash. The Dunyain takeover was a great twist and the more I think on it will make the stakes o much higher with four Dunyain being the four angels of the Apocalypse in the next series. But I wanted to see Shae at long last, hear him speak about his motives and why he did what he did for all of these years. See Mekeritrig go full Nonmen erratic sorcerer on his foes and show them why they feared they Consult for so long. It would have been great if he had survived and Shae had simply ceded leadership of the Consult to the Mutilated, the goal was not power but simply to save their eternal souls after all. I think the biggest defency of this series was the lack of a clear enemy to fight until the very end of the story, the first series had them fighting the Fanim and prosecuting the Holy War, there was an enemy for them to fight. This one the enemy never appeared except in drips and drabs, the world was the enemy and that lacks a certain narrative tension. The tragedy at Irsulor and the battle of the ten yoke legion were highlights because it showed the cunning of the Consult in battle, where up to that point they were simply a dread rumor of. RSB has shown a distinct George Lucas streak to me, I mean that in the sense of creating and showing a cool character and then not doing much with them. The Tall who were introduced in the last book seemed to be a revelation, but we only see a glimpse of two of them and each for barely a moment. Oirunas who it says he died in the appendix when he walked into the throne of Ish with multiple chorea strapped to his armor and caused absolute pandemonium, and the Tall who guarded the gate and was killed quickly. Maitha who should have been a more central character to the kids of Kellhuss, from Serwa and Kayutas, to poor old Theli. In short I think this series ended on a cliffhanger much like television shows, the heroes are at their darkest hours and all seems lost, Frodo is feared dead, Jon Snow has died. People are acting like this was the end of the series and they did not get what they wanted, since I finished the PON I knew there were two more series.
  7. My question involves the Scylvendi, in the forests of Kuniuri the Akka trio is discovered by one of the Few. It was not clear if he was simply a latent sorcerer or if he was in fact a sorcerer. Considering the two millennia alliance between the Consult and the Scylvendi and the new alliance with Cnaiur. It would make sense for the Few to be trained in the Gnostic arts by the Nonmen or the Mangaecca. My question is are there any Scylvendi sorcerers?
  8. Scott if you are looking for a prequel story you should consider the decade prior to the start of the story proper. The politics and feint that led to the first holy war, focusing on the Scarlet Spires of High Ainon and the Cishaurim of the Cabin empire. Since the metaphysics of the Psukhe or the anagogis do not seem central to the larger story they can be explored without spoiling the greater story. And since the Cishaurim do not understand their art the metaphysics will not be spoiled. The discovery of the skin spies and the reaction to it, the internal politics of Cishaurim would be fascinating. moenghus and his struggle to master circumstances, what he was like in private, Maithanet and his defective siblings. The birth of the thousandfold thought and his struggle to bring it into existence, conditioning Martha for his role and trying to reach Ishual. If you wished their could be flash backs of Moenghus in Ishual without spoiling the Dunyain. The inner court of the Scarlet Spires, a young Eleazaurus and a not as old Iyokus, the infamous attack that started there secret war. How they viewed themselves before the war. And there view of the Mandate. The battle of Zirkirta, the Scylvendi before Conphas and Cnaiur before he fell into madness. This would cover the factions skipped over in PON without spoiling the main narrative.
  9. Solo, Beren and Lithium are none other than Achamian and Mimara, I believe one of Beren names is Mechanism. While Mimara is the child of the great king although this time it is his stepdaughter. Achamian is the waif come from the wilds and together they go on a most perilous journey.
  10. Bakker stated that in a interview with Pat, he was answering questions and dropped that little nugget about the Tusk.
  11. I think that the Chorae neutralizes the magic of the collar, rendering it inert and allowing for her to use sorcery.
  12. I think that the Tsonoi are royalty for all of the Nonmen mansions, that is why Nil Cilijiras is able to take control of the mansion after the exit of Nil Giccas. Remember in Cil Aujas Cleric calls the shade of Gin Yursis cousin, so all of the royal families were apart of one bloodline . And because he was the last surviving person of that bloodline Nil Cilijiras was made king of the mansion.
  13. Wert I was under the impression that their was a 6thousand year difference between arkfall and the breaking of the gates, giving the entire story a 10 thousand year range
  14. I think we are getting a little to personal when we openly worry about people's wives. The book is the book and the man is the man, because one comes from the other doesn't say anything about him except his imagination.