The Snark of Winterfell

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  1. Littlefinger's chaos plans in show and book are hard to figure out. They are usually pretty effective but I agree with you, I can't see LF having power over the Northern Lords after Bastard Bowl. In the books, I believe being regent to sweetrobin was a really temporary solution that would only hold for a couple years and I understood the game plan of having Sansa Marry marry the Heir. She is half Tully, half Stark and would have the Vale through marriage and I'm sure he has more planned. But that's the books. In the show he sent Sansa to be raped. Sansa has now put on her big girl pants. She knows that Arya and Rickon are still alive for a fact and she is with Jon. I don't see Sansa or any of the Northern lords having any need of LF after the battle for Winterfell.
  2. I agree. The show is straight forward devoid of conspiracy. In the books, I think it was Mance or Stannis, who are both dead in the show. Was holding out hope for Stannis until this last episode. One possible benefit to the letter could be getting Jon to leave the Wall so Ramsay's Northern Allies won't have to attack the Night's Watch.
  3. I think Ramsay wrote letter in the show. The show is really straight forward, I think it was simply a mechanism to get Jon to rally to Bastard Bowl. In the books, I don't think Ramsay wrote it for several reasons. I think it was Mance, maybe Stannis, but these plots don't exist in the show. I am still holding out hope for an Umber betrayal of Ramsay (because they seem like they made a point that he wouldn't kneel or swear allegiance that I thought was purposeful), but Asha's death didn't help. If Umber held Rickon as his own captive then I would be confident in it, but leaving him with a dude that wants to eliminate all Starks to cement his rule and whom Umber knew just killed his dad, brother and stepmother also to cement his rule, just keeps shrinking my belief.
  4. This is not my theory and I'm guessing it has been proposed on this board before even though I could not find it. Preston Jacobs, who receives a lot of hate on this board, more or less started a movement to read GRRM's other works that takes place in a universe known as 1000 worlds. There are all sorts of planets, human and alien. A lot if not most had the capability of space flight at some time. There was a period of interreggnum, that put a lot of places back tot he stone age. So you are left with a world where humans and aliens have advanced technology and others may be stuck in a midevil period. There are even worlds that have multi year winters, due tot he presence of multiple suns/stars affecting the weather. I don't always buy Preston Jacobs, usually I am on board on the first video in his series then it gradually digresses into madness based on faulty foundations, but I find a lot of it really good. Preston points to a lot of similarities or even concepts which really parallel the human relationship with the others in the Story in the House of the Worm. It's not too long and there is even a comic book retelling that I haven't read, but hear is more or less accurate. The story of in the house of the Worm starts with a what appears to be a kind of feudal Society. Bloodlines matter and their technology is more or less Bronze Age, except for the fact that they are very capable of certain genetic engineering and complex surgery. Their religion is terrible. Essentially they worship the great white worm and to show their homage their leader is maimed periodically so that they remove his arms, legs, and eventually head to make him more wormlike over years with maiming him and keeping him alive through surgery. These people are known as the yaga-la-hi. (described as more or less human). They have gone through a fallout of some sort, whether nuclear or the dying of their sun, they live in chambers of obsidian and get certain glipses of their dying sun for light. They have eyes and and need light to see, they use torches. Their sigil is a golden theta. There is another species that is subterranean known as the groun. The groun have 6 appendages 4 arms, two feet or whatever. They don't have eyes or they are very small and they do not need light. Light scares them. Our protagonist is Annelyn, is a golden haired handsome man, that is brash and arrogant and thinks he knows what he doesn't know. He is dismissive of others, he is very Jamie Lannister. Not a good guy. At a ball he is hoping to court a hot chick named Caralee. Before that happens a man known as meatbringer bring the carcass of a groun for the yaga-la-hi to feast on. Meatbringer is more or less human but he has some differences in height, his nose and other features. Meatbringer straight up laughs at and disrespects Annelyn and then bangs Caralee in the middle of the dance floor. In the subterranean levels there is no light, people are scared of grouns and meatbringer is the only guy who really goes down there hunts grouns and presents them as food for the yaga-la-hi at this present moment. Annelyn and two friends devise a plan to follow meatbringer, learn his secrets of how he kills the grouns and then to kill him. However, all three of them figure they will chicken out before they get there. However, there is a knight, Groff, that was sent by the powers that be to kill meatbringer as well. This stops the protagonist from chickening out. They find that the grouns have been pushed to way further depths than they ever imagined. They find meatbringer and find that he can see in total dark. They find out that he kills both yaga-la-hi and grouns. He feeds each society the other people and is a person of both races. Most likely he is a mixed breed I believe. He also states, you should be eating each other, you should be mating with each other. He mates with both grouns and yaga-la-hi. (He also stays in what looks like an operating room, with metal wheeled tables and whatnot) This pisses off Groff who charges at meatbringer, who kills all of Annelyns friends save Annelyn who escapes down an air vent. Annelyn eventually discovers ridiculously huge worms, eater worms and various other stuff which presumably is what pushed the grouns deeper. He also notices evidence that the yaga-la-li were once at levels deeper than he imagined in the subterranean space. He eventually discovers a wall of glass, where behind there are various genetic stages of the groun and the worms alike. The earliest of the grouns had eyes and wore a helmet, but still had 6 appendages. The sigil of these grouns and the genetic engineers at the subterranean level is a silver theta. The helmet allowed Annelyn to see, he befriended the grouns bey saving one from a worm and then eventually kills meatbringer because he can see with his helmet. When he goes back to the yaga-la-hi he tells the people that they should be mating with the grouns, not eating them and is largely dismissed, the end. The grouns are clearly human and there genetic engineering is more than implied. Also the theta is a symbol for genetic engineering/biological science in his other stories. The theta was something that existed before the histories we got and may have dictated a lot of the evolutionary paths that people went down. Ok, so how does this relate. Pact I am one who believes that the Long Night ended in a pact. Why? The histories of the LN are all inherently not trustworthy as there was no writing then and what we got is more or less passed down through oral traditions that the Maesters put to paper thousands of years later. The only old history from that period I trust is from old nan. When she tells the story of the LH/LN to Bran she is cut off. "Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken those lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods, the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds.." Old Nan is then interrupted by Maester Luwin. A Game of Thrones, Chapter 24, Bran IV. I believe that was purposeful. We are told the cotf save the last hero, they build a wall and everyone is happy. I don't believe that. We are told that these WW who ravaged the realms, had mothers suffocating their children to avoid the cold and WW. The realm is in bad shape. We are to believe that Others who smelled the LH's blood and trailed him silently while mounted on creatures just got their ass handed to them by the cotf is a quick sweep and it was over. Then they built a wall of ice to keep out ice monsters. I think a pact makes more sense. We know the Others are capable of reaching agreements, i.e Craster. Sacrifice your children and we won't bother you. So what was the pact. Well I believe the last hero was the NK. (this is a popular theory) The 13th LC of NW was the NK. I think he took the moniker of 13th LC because of his 12 friends that died in their search of the cotf. I believe part of their pact was a marriage pact between the NK and the female other. As marriage pacts are ingrained in the asoiaf society, first men, andals, rhoynar. The Night's Fort was the alter for sacrifice to the Others for continued peace, whether they give the children of the NK and the female other or just other Northern bastards. Back when Queen Alasayne closed the Night's Fort as the center of the Watch, ended the Lord's right of the first night, and gave the lands just south of the Wall to the NW was an effort to end the realms relationship with the Others or to stop the sacrificing. (I know not a lot to support this at all) This is what spurred the Others to mobilize. The Pact with the Others was violated, no more sacrifices, no children being given to them from the watch, unlike Craster. The humans also violated the Pact with the cotf, which was more or less the cotf will get out of their way, humans have to worship the old gods and maintain the Weirwood net so they can keep an eye on us. This was wiped out by the Andals, so the cotf and the Others were left with nothing (as an aside) To tie in with hotw, I think the Others are humans that went down a different evolutionary path to suit themselves to harsh climates. I think they are human because the NK mated with an Other. I think the endgame is make love to the others, not war, but the feudal society too concerned with bloodlines and realm politics are too stupid to realize it.
  5. Yea it's a pretty nasty story, the yaga-la-li are clearly a misguided society. Their religion is so fucked up. I think the fact that the others and humans can mate in asoiaf is a big deal. In the ithotw, it is pretty is blunt that these people are diverging races to the point where 1 has 6 appendages and no eyes (through genetic engineering and evolution) but they can mate with each other and reproduce. It would be very unGRRM that the others are just his unrelenting evil set to conquer the realm.
  6. Without seeing a pic, my guess is Kinvara, the new red priestess in Mereen
  7. *****Spoilers ahead, I would not read this if you are not caught up in books So in episode 2, Ramsay stated that he had the support of the Manderlys, Umbers and Karstark, and that their combined power was greater than the rest of the North combined. We know from the books, that Ramsay is probably only right about the Karstarks. It seems like the Manderly's are simply playing the Boltons and the Umbers are helping. Frey pies, the North Remembers, Jeyne's escape, etc. I think this will hold true in the show. There was a scene in the previews that showed what looked like a Frey wedding, I think the pies are certainly in play. However, I was wondering your thoughts on how they would pull it off, given the show has diverged from the books greatly, i.e. Stannis is dead (maybe), Sansa has escaped, Theon is on his way to Pyke for the Kingsmoot (I'm guessing), etc. The show is moving really fast. Look what happened to Dorne, wtf was that garbage. (Big show fan, but hated Dorne). So if they do introduce the Manderlys and even remotely try to set up a great or mini Northern Conspiracy, they have no time to set up the characters, introduce that plot and finish it before the much anticipated bastard bowl. (I am assuming this will happen because it makes good tv, and Ramsay divulged his plan to kill Jon before killing Roose). I am figuring that the Manderly's plot may be limited to the Riverlands or wherever that place was that showed Walder in the preview. I also figure that the Umbers will betray Ramsay in the field during bastard bowl. But, I think whatever they do is probably gonna be pretty clunky. Thoughts? Any shot that D&D pull it off?
  8. Good to have a very jam packed eventful episode after the pretty uneventful premiere. It looks like the meeting between America's most hated bastard and the most loved bastard is a near certainty. Ramsay told Roose the plan to march to the Wall and kill Jon before he took care of Roose. And of course Jon is back. I always tell non-book readers that Ramsay is way worse in the books. He raped and killed Lady Hornwood, the flays Reek way worse in the books than the show (except the removal of his junk is explicitly stated int he show, whereas in the books I believe it's just inferred) and he probably killed his baby bro Domeric. Well the show bridged the gap (which may very well happen in the books) by his savage killing of Lady Walda and his baby brother. So I think it's pretty clear that Ramsay is going to have his comeuppance and I am pretty sure it will happen at Jon Snow's hands. My question is when. Ramsay stated his plan to Roose before he killed him. Which is go to the Wall, kill Jon and with the support of the Manderly's, Karstarks and Umbers he can give two shits about the other Northern Houses. ****ADwD spoilers below***** Book readers know that two of those tree just mentioned are probably not on the Bolton side, i.e. Frey Pie. In the previews there appears to be a wedding feast with Walder Frey and some Lannister soldiers. I am thinking this is a Blue, grey, twin wedding, whatever it's called. I am assuming this is where the Frey Pie happens. With that said, this is an event that can teach Ramsay that he does not have the support he thinks he has or the show can do something completely different and keep the Bolton's out of it. Just wondering what everyone thinks. Will bastard bowl be the finale or second to last episode or will it happen sooner than later? Is the Frey wedding going to involve the Bolton's? Will it involve the Manderly's? Will it show Ramsay that he is being played by other Northerners before he marches on the Wall?
  9. Thx made the edit
  10. Ok, so I know in the books Doran has multiple children that seem to be cut from the series in Arianne and Quentyn. In the books his wife is alive but living in Norvos. So assuming that none of those people exist in the show universe, who takes under Dornish Law? I know women and men have the same standing, but what about bastards? Would the other noble houses (like Yronwood) allow the sandsnakes to claim Dorne after a kinslaying their uncle? Let me know, because I found the sandsnake coup bizarre.
  11. The other houses do exist in the show, when Tyrion tried to meet Oberyn with a welcoming party at KL, Pod identified like 5 or 6 Dornish houses in the show that supported (as far as we know) the Martells. I only remember House Dalt with the lemons, the Blackmonts, and the Ullers, but other houses were definitely mentioned in the show. I do get your larger point that this is the show not the books, but there is no way not to do this without at least a little crossover.
  12. Your right, man do I hate Dorne
  13. ^couldn't agree more. Also, what vengeance were they seeking? Tywin and the Mountain are dead. Oberyn died in a trial by combat, man to man, straight up.
  14. Dorne was such a disater from the start in the shows. It's bad writing, it's not empowering women. Ellaria's motivations are totally screwed up. Doran you let Elia's rapers/killers go free. But the mountain and Tywin are dead at Oberyn's hand. Moreover, as far as I know no one is committing rapes with impunity in Dorne, Elia was raped and murdered in KL. We have to avenge Oberyn, but he was killed in single combat that he signed up for. What I know about Dorne is that they do not hurt little girls in Dorne, the SS's father was pretty adamant about that. The SS apparently feel different. Oh and they are kinslayers as well. This is not empowering to women. Is GoT sexist, yea they live in a sexist society, as book and novella readers will know intimately from matters of succession, specically during the great councils called before the Dance of Dragons. But there are positive female characters: Catlyn, Sansa, Dany, Brienne, Arya, Gilly, Ygritte... (all to varying extents) From where I stand there is no way to put a positive spin on the Dorne plot, whether femist or literary or whatever.
  15. Agreed. So sorry just venting. D&D raped and murdered the Dornish plot like the Mountain raped Elia and murdered her children. Nothing made sense going back to season 5. I thought Oberyn said to Cersei, "you are lucky your daughter is in Dorne, we do not hurt little girls in Dorne." Well his daughters apparently feel differently about this. Why were the sandsnakes able to see off Jamie and Myrcella? Why didn't Jaimie turn the ship around when Myrcella was killed when they were still in view of the shore (I can understand some plausible explanations for this)? Exactly as you said, they saw them off at the dock and now they are in KL killing Trystene? Jamie was not in a huge boat and they were followed by a boat all that way and then boarded without anyone seeing anything, the only explanation is that the ships crew and captain were in on the plot and the SS can sail like the wind. And then Nym wants to kill Trystene with a whip at close quarters when he has a sword. And of course the lame deaths of Doran and Hotah with all their guards doing absolutely nothing. So Ellaria Sand is a paramour and has no claim to the dornish throne. The Sandsnakes are bastard born that killed their uncle and the other great houses in Dorne are going to be cool with this coup. The whole Dornish plot was a disaster.
  16. It's definitely curious. She is in a shepherd village in the Dothraki sea and speaks common tongue. She has ridiculous training from moonsingers, shadowbinders and from Marwyn. All really odd. Something else I consider suspect, but others don't is that the Cinnamon Wind is outside Qarth when Dany is there. The Cinnamon Wind also brings Sam to Oldtown and then more or less immediately takes Marwyn to serve Dany in the midst of a war. Qyburn is also very associated with Marwyn and now he is well placed in the capital. I personally don't think she was there by happenstance. I think Marwyn is a huge player and the tinfoil in me thinks that he is able to communicate to both MMD and Qyburn through his glass candle.
  17. In the Mystery Knight, which is essentially the story of the second Blackfyre rebellion, the sword Blackfyre was extremely important. Daemon II Blackfyre really had significant issues in garnering true support because of his lack of Blackfyre, the sword. Several Blackfyre supporters felt that this showed that Bittersteel did not support the rebellion and Daemon II. Conversely, the fact that Daemon I Blackfyre was given that sword was a huge reason why he was able to gain support over Daeron II, at least that was stated by multiple Blackfyre supporters in the Sworn Sword and Mystery Knight. So it's definitely important. I agree w Varys that there is a major hint that they lost Blackfyre in the 3rd rebellion, because of what I stated above and Bittersteel was part of this rebellion. It is certainly possible that Varys smuggled the sword out and I suppose it is possible that Haggon did not carry the sword into battle. Hard to say, but I lean towards fAegon having the sword.
  18. It's definitely interesting. My problem with it is that it is almost an impossible reveal. For that reason I am personally sticking with the basic A+J=T. I think it is going to have to come out that Tyrion is part Targ as an important plot device. With that said I think there are a lot of wink wink things that will never be revealed that GRRM puts out there, so it can be that. But we are never going to get the mixing of DNA explanation because there is no one who is qualified to reveal that to us. As far as Tywin's hypocrisy, I completely agree.
  19. If it plays out that way I would guess the Manderlys, hornwoods or Umbers for geographical reasons.
  20. I'm not the only one on this bandwagon, even though it's unpopular, I don't think the Last Hero found the CotF. I think it is more likely a pact between men and the WW. If you read the end of the Nan story, it doesn't say that the LH found the Cotf, to me it reads more like the WW found him. "Oh my sweet summer child … What do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north, when the sun hides it face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods. The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks. In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children. Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken those lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods, the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds –[1] " The common assumption is the CotF came by and saved the day and everyone worked together to build the Wall and beat the WW. I don't. I think the 13 is very relevant. Night's King 13th Commander of the NW, Lh had 12 companions die, making him 13. I believe that the others found the LH, made a pact that he was to establish himself as the commander of the Night's Watch and take a WW bride. The kingdom of men would be South of the Wall, while the Kingdom of the Others would be North in the Lands of Always Winter (which is not a coincidence) and the NW would act as a liaison between the two worlds as their head was Human and married to a WW. I also believe the WW worked in conjunction with everyone else to build the Wall, because why would you build a wall of ice to keep out ice monsters. I don't believe that the Others are necessarily bad. The only bad entity that I really believe is R'hllor, who sacrifices everybody. If you have an alehouse and call yourself the king of mutton, you better watch out, cuz your about to be burned on a spit. I think the Others waking up or at least letting themselves be seen with an army is related to that and this battle between the two is related to regulating seasons. May not be too much behind it, but I am starting to lean this way. ”
  21. I can buy this
  22. Very fair. I understand you are just saying that the lemons symbolize a bitter ending for Dany, more or less. But wouldn't the Tyroshi connections to the GC/Greens be wiped out in Dany's story with the change of the location of the house with the red door? Is it still applicable? It seems more who cares she's misremembering or was misinformed about her location than a series of mistakes concerning her Tyroshi accents and lemon trees, to me. I think both sides of lemon gate have merit, I'm just on the other.
  23. I think there is something rotten about those lemons in Braavos too. GRRM keeps throwing lemons and where they grow in our faces. I respect and understand the idea of the sealord's palace, but I'm in the Dorne camp. I don't know how Tyrosh would serve the story, for me it's evidence that the places she lived in her memories aren't the real story.