Mulled Wino

Only 19.43% of those who voted believed the episode was a 6 or less. 80.57% actually rated it higher. I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

I'm gone with you, unreal that 30% gave it a 10. Has to be HBO plants

the worst episode I"ve even seen

6. I really can't get over the plot holes and utterly unimaginable actions that the characters (especially at the wall) that are force fed the audience.

Jamie and Tyrion was an odd scene that did nothing for me.

Gave it a 7, much better start than last season. there's one character I can't wait to get rid of though

It's unnecessary and makes no sense within the context of the SHOW's version of Barristan Selmy. A couple of episodes ago he criticised Robert for being "a drunk" and then said he looks forward to serving Daenerys... And then in this episode he's getting drunk on the job and putting Dany's life in danger.

He looks completely incompetent. Cersei looks competent for sacking him.

where does it say in the books that barristan never ever drinks?

Im going 8, but I want to give it 7.5. The taking of Yunkai was really really really bad. Wtf was that, 3 dudes take down the effn city?

I continue to be disappointed by the lack of urgency in the Sam scenes. What happened to all those birds?

I was underwhelmed by the RW as well. It was a good tv scene, which is why I still went with an 8 but it could have been so much better imo. I didnt particulary love book Robb, but I felt for him. Tv Robb, I really couldnt have cared less about

Now the other Stark kids did it for me in a big way. Huge. Arya and The Hound, Bran and Rickon were great. A few nitpicks there and with Jon but the scenes made for fantastic tv.

Lol seriously I think you need to re-read the books. Sansa is NOTHING like Catelyn, apart from the fact that she acts like a Lady.

ive read that thread and Arya has traits of Cat over Ned, LyAnna over Cat stc. She's her own character. Arya is a survivor over anything and everything. That is not Cat. Arya and duty and honor? I dont fucking think so. Family yes.

Not about the show but why do we have the exact same topics all week, it seems. There's been no new topics for over a day now, just the same ones rehashing.

9/10. I would give it a ten, but I want to save that for the final two episodes.

This was personally my favorite episode since the season 1 finale. Despite a few small nitpicks, I loved everything about this episode. The wedding, the leeches, the Seconds Sons, and Sam the Slayer. All perfect. Plus Dany and Mel showing nearly all definitely didn't hurt.

Narrowing down the amount of storylines this episode definitely made it superior to every other episode this season, in my opinion, and 3x9 looks like to continue this trend, which is good.

Are you an HBO plant? You're planning on giving a 10 in the last 2 episodes? Such an odd sentence.

10 for naked emilia. Would have been an 8.5, my highest grade for the season. No robb, jon and cat scenes does wonders for their ratings.

The only thing left I hate is the stannis arc/story and Tyrion. But I hate book Tyrion anyway so I dont count that against the show.

Haha sorry. I didn't intend to open this can of worms.

btw, when jamie's hand gets cut off and he's miserable, he never one thinks about his kids when he decides to live. He does it for cersei, tyrion, and his enemies. If he gave a crap about his kids, that would he the time to express it.

to everyone complaining about talisa writing a letter shortly after sex,

When was the last time any of you actually wrote a handwritten letter, using a quill and inkwell? Also Its not like she had a bevy of other things to do. hmm its night time, my husband is gonna do some war planning, i think ill play some bejewled or check facebook.

Lol, very true. She should have lit up a smoke and poured some wine.

Well let's not be a jerk about it. But he does express anger with Cersei about it. It is not just, "I don't give a fuck about them." But I guess Tyrion telling Jaime that he killed Joff is also just pointless, right? Means absolutely nothing to Jaime? I really hope your response shows some maturity and respect for others' opinions.

well, we know because we have both pov's. Excuse the bluntness please. I have a bit of a problem with that!

there was something about joff being a squirt in cersei's cunt (paraphrase)

I disagree. There is a time where he gets angry with Cersei because they are and aren't his kids. He wanted to be a father to them, but couldn't. He had to ignore them to avoid any suspicious moments. He wanted to love them, but couldn't because he was never allowed to be their father.

He never says he wanted to love them, but he does say he didn't care about them.

That goes against direct quotes, but ok, feel free to ignore the text,.

Playing devil's advocate:

Jaime pushed Bran because otherwise he, Cersei, and all three of their children, would be dead.

Jamie didn't give a rats ass about his children, he was trying to cover up his relationship WITH HIS sister. don't put thoughts in his head he didn't have. he also didn't give a damn that he tried to kill a kid because he was sneaking around. he couldn't care less. That=sociopath.

He attacked Ned's men because Cat had just kidnapped his brother without any sort of discussion. He was harsh, but not as much as Cat.

which was ridiculously reckless and sabotaged his father's plan. i don't recall Cat or any starks killing any lannisters beforehand. so its not tit for tat as you suggest

He killed Karstark's sons because they were enemies and it was a battle.

very true. in the show he killed one for an escape, book, in battle, no problem there really.

The whole cousin thing has no excuse. It was just a horribly written scene. Especially since family is the one virtue Jaime certainly has.

yes and no. he brings quite a bit of trouble to his family by banging his sister.

Having said that, I agree with you. Jaime is certainly not being whitewashed. It is simply just the first time we have gotten in his head.

i disagree. they are leaving out plenty, especially that he doesn't give a damn about his kids...

Its not like Joff never listened to Cersei and she was just bowled over by him. She shuts him up at tyrions wedding to sansa and he listens to her plenty of other times.

He's not REALLY good. He's really likable, but hardly characterized as a white knight.

Because he said that he has some dark thoughts?

Actions speak louder than words...

First of all, human doesn't mean nice. In the books, Cersei was scarred shitless from Stannis. She missed Jaime, she was so vulnerable to point of having Tyrion trying to comfort her. That's human.

I don't think we've ever seen Cersei being nice in the show. She could relate to Tyrion's despair because she was basically in the same situation.

And also, having 3 seasons of Cersei in pyscho bitch mode would get pretty boring.

This is a good point, and we've seen some of her vulnerability, but its getting to be a whole season of it. Which is boring me to tears. I'm tired of hearing about how she can't control Joff and seeing her cowed about everything to do with her father, at least show some rage behind the scene. I don't picture Cersei with this fake smile plastered on her face at all times, trying to put on her nice girl face.

How the heck are they going to shock us with their pathology if they start out looking bad? RW is coming. Qyburn is coming. Joffrey is being allowed to stay King.

cersei started out looking bad, I think we all forget that Jamie did as well.

Regarding Tywin: Just because something isn't repeatedly brought into the forefront doesn't mean they are being whitewashed. We have heard the stories about what he has done, and unfortunately for the medium of television, there isn't that much time to go back and revisit told stories. You might wish people to have stronger reactions to characters by having them portrayed in a particular light, but that doesn't mean that's the only interpretation. What I get of Tywin is a brilliant man, who is utterly ruthless and brutal in his goals, but effects those goals in a strategic manner.

The challenge of the TV medium is that the audience must believe the character you are presenting, and to achieve that you must add in aspects of the character which are familiar to the audience. Consider what happens when you build up only the negative aspects of a character in order to create a villain. I don't think that many members of the audience can relate to the characters of Ramsay, Joffrey, The Mountain, or Locke, and as such there isn't much the audience expects from those characters. Complicated characters like Tywin are challenging to write as you must get the audience to 'buy in' to what the character is doing in order to avoid just seeing a villain to be killed off in the name of 'good'.

Now, regarding Cersie: She is also a complicated character, and you can't have her just jump into a sea of suspicion and paranoia right from the getgo and evoke the strongest emotions from the audience. The audience has to see her human side, they have to see her as a recognizable person, flawed, but understandable, and they MUST have some sympathy to her. It doesn't have to be a lot, but there must be enough. What this does is basically draw the audience in and makes her descent into paranoia that much more compelling and impactful.

It also provides a contrast. In television, you don't have that long to develop the various nuances, and the subtleties can often be lost if you try to show a transition from grey morality to greyer morality. That's why they are making these characters more sympathetic now, because it gets the audience to become more emotionally invested in the outcome.

The subtleties also get lost when you show characters that are pretty much as perfect as Jamie and Tyrion appear to be. It makes later changes appear forced and unrealistic. And I'm almost 100% that there is no need for further redemption for Jamie, he's the good guy character dream. Always had the most noble of intentions, misunderstood, persecuted by the mean old Northmen, and looks out for the outcast Brienne.

Regarding Cersei, we dont need her "human side". She was what she's supposed to be season 1 and one episode of season 2. All this flip flopping of her personality and weakness she shows make her character inconsistent and falls flat to me. We arent supposed to see her "human side" because she doesnt freakin have one. She may be complex but she's a complex sociopath and has been one since she was physically torturing her little brother with genital mutilation as a child.

I agree with people who complain about Tyrion's whitewashing. At this point, TV Tyrion is a completely different character than the book Tyrion. I will begin calling him TVyrion.

jamie, cersei, and tywin are also being whitewashed

Ive had about enough of how perfect the Lannisters are being portrayed.

That difference is probably called personal opinion. I saw a lot of things that either developed characters or showed which direction things will go.

I don't think I have to reconsider anything. The very reason people call nudity gratuitous must be because they don't feel completely comfortable with it. In this episode it was there because we saw a scene between two people that love each other (such people tend to be naked with each other pretty often when they are alone) and one scene where a person is being tortured using sexuality to lead into the horrible part. Those are clearly reasons why people were nude. Just as with any scene you don't have to like them but just brushing it off as gratuitous indicates what I've referred to. Otherwise you can say that everything is gratuitous since every single scene and story could be something else in theory.

The main problem problem I had with the Theon and Jon nude scenes is that the time could have been used in a much more productive manner. Its wasting precious time (which you admit we dont have enough of).

It has been said that the show's greatest flaw is losing the subtility of the characters and events from the book. I totally agree with this point. They're so filling up the show with cliche's that they're losing parts of the story and characters:

• Tyrion just whines about everything and looks childish. But of course he has no flaws, he has to be our obvious hero caught between duty and love. And Shae feels betrayed. She always does, She only complains to poor Tyrion. Seriously, how could he fall in love with her?. Good thing there's Bronn around.
  

• Jon scenes; even more cliches: i love you, but you have to trust me and leave your people...but i love you more, and Jon is not the right one for you, i am. Dramatic intent, fails hard IMO. Ygritte's and Jon's relationship was left aside a lot in the books, but i still don't believe that both are in love by what we've been shown. Tormund trying to be funny, doesn't mention his enormous d*ck.
  

• Tywin doesn't even look as scary and cool headed this last two episodes as his renown tells about him. Even his coward grandchild Joffrey dares to discuss with him. This scene could have been done so much better. And why talk about Dany and not talk about the war?. I feel like since Tywin arrived to KL he has done nothing more about the war which is going on. There are Northmen in Harrenhall and he just talks and talks with Olenna about gay relationships and with Joffrey about dragons. He's supposed to be the hand of the king...
  

• Sansa and Margaery talking about sex: another filler which doesn't do any right to the characters. Seriously, now it's supposed to mean that Margaery is some kind of nympho? Are the Tyrells all perverts or what? (from Westeros point of view)
  

• Theon's torture...nothing much to say about that. Producers obviously like porn and violence, so why not mix them both? It would have been so much better if they showed us how he disappears in Bolton's torture chambers and then reappeared in the next season all psichologically and physically destroyed, leaving all that happened to our imagination.
  

• Mel and Gendry and her revelation. Just a scene that tries to bring some epicness into the story: dramatic music, cool special effects and so on. All this for such a little talk? When i watched it i thought it was ridiculous
  

• Robb and the Tarlys marching north. I seriously think they are destroying both Black Fish and Edmure's characters. One looks like a big bully, the other like Cat's stupid brother. And Talisa is now pregnant? Robb is going to meet her parents at Volantis? Why does it sound like they're trying to put up some drama but fail epicly? And leaving the deepest and most dramatic figure (Cat) of the group aside like they do again and again this seeson is a crime.
  

On the other hand, i liked the scene with Dany, though we have again our unnecessary special effects-show off moment. Arya's scene seemed well resolved too, but it seemed too easy for her to escape from them (?), and Jaime rescueing Brienne was a good one IMO.

The whole build up was pretty cool, starting with the dialogue with Qyburn to him jumping in the Pit and escaping just at time. Though i must say i missed a bit of opposition by Vargo Hoat's men. I mean, if they're refusing 300 gold coins 'cause they now they're going to die soon, why caring about what a useless Jaime and some Bolton's soldiers say? Pretty unlogic. And why the hell are they all calling Vargo Locke now? Bolton called him clearly Vargo Hoat in the previous episode.

My conclusion is: many scenes used just to fill up time and are pointless, and many dialogues which may appear good written but seem not levelled to the complexity of the charachters.

It's tru that there are good effects though somehow abused, and brilliant acting and scenery, but the script seems more and more a deception to me.

I give it a 6

Excellent work

Gave it a 5. Thought it was poor from beginning to end with the bright spots being Jamie, Arya, and Dany.