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Only a few great moments, and several parts that made me go "eh?". Definitely the worst of the season so far, and pretty low in the whole series too. Gave it a 6 (Though the fact that the worst episode still gets a 6 shows how good the show is altogether)
Jon/Ygritte felt cliché and I couldn't help but notice that for their "magical moment" Orell and Tormund seem to have disappeared?
Though the actors were great as usual, the Tywin/Olenna discussion was weird at times, and the discussion of sexual tolerance felt too modern.
I still like the Theon storyline, but I wonder why they spend so much time on it. They still have at least one and a half seasons to go, yet every episode spends several minutes with Theon. Why is this not more stretched out?
Littlefinger...ugh. Yeah, it's consisten with the show character I guess but why is he always the complete opposite of subtle?
The scenery of climbing the wall was amazing though.
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A bit harshly, I gave it a 7. While there was nothing really wrong with it and some scenes were great, there were quite a few thing that didn't quite work for me either.
The good:
-Tywin vs. his kids, just guarantees to be a great scene.
-The bath scene was great.
-I'm okay with the way they depicted Shireen
The neutral:
-I thought there was a bit much dumb banging on shields in the duel, but then again it's probably something you'll have in a real fight too.
-It's nice to see Littlefinger do some "plotting", but having someone seduce Loras was pretty simple, and apparently he had to be initiated by Cersei first...
-I had kinda hoped to hear the Candle-line or show his affection for Renly in some other way. Bit sad they cut it out, but understandable.
The bad:
-I've never been too big a fan of the resurrection in the books, and if that kind of story works well depends hugely on the cost. Beric had his line about losing himself...but I didn't really buy it that this was so bad for him. It didn't seem like it was.
-This is more of a fault of the previous episodes, but Jon/Ygritte didn't work for me at all. The scene itself was fine (Though "you know nothing Jon Sno - OH!" is a terribly cheesy line imho, wish they'd have cut that) but their relationship hasn't progressed to that point yet, especially not for Ygritte to say "I want to stay in this cave forever"
-Stillborns in those cylinders...that was just weird and didn't really fit...
The rest was okay, nothing bad but nothing really special either (could be I'm forgetting about some things though)
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10, without a single doubt. Even before Astapor I already thought "Damn! This is a great episode". Would already given a 10 there. And of course Dracarys nailed it.
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Re: The whores refusing to accept the money - During the scene, I was a bit confused as to why they did this. Towards the end, I thought it was obvious Tyrion arranged it to be able to make Pod think he's a stud. But there is so much confusion about this that I'm beginning to wonder if I'm wrong - Is there more to this scene?
I found it interesting that some people mentioned a somewhat-known actor (forgot the name again, sorry :P) playing just a NW extra(The one who looked at one of Craster's wives). My bet is he will be one of the leaders of the Revolt against Mormont (So he can enjoy those wives without trouble)
I guess Sam the slayer will be to save Gilly's Baby?
Overall, I liked the episode. The credits didn't work for me at all, but that seems to be down to personal opinion - you either like it or hate it, from what I've seen so far. There was practically nothing I could objectively call badly done (which is really admirable for over 50 minutes of TV)
Loved Arya's Goodbye, Jaime warming up to Brienne (Nikolaj is freaking awesome!), Ramsay playing with Theon ("you little bastard"), the chair-dragging, Dany scenes and probably a whole lot more.
Didn't particularly like the Stannis scene, but just like with Catelyn, some of the outrage it causes is ridiculous. I think a problem is that (similar to Renly and Loras being gay) GRRM never really showed that side of Stannis from his perspective, so while reading it's easy to dismiss it just as rumours etc.
Jon's storyline still does nothing for me, Mance doesn't really stand out. Someone called Jon's plot for S3 being the same weight as Dany's for S2 and I tend to agree. I hope it picks up...
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I gave it a 7, but that seems to be more my mood while watching it. I'd up it to an 8, but I can understand the 9s and 10s too. There was almost nothing you could objectively call badly done, it's down to personal opinion.
Negatives:
-The credit song either worked or didn't work, judging from comments here. Some loved it, some hated it. Unfortunately I'm in the second camp, it just pulled me out. I also thought Jaime losing his hand seemed fake but that may be in the connectiong with the cut to the song.
-Stannis saying "I want you" seemed off to me, didn't particularly like the scene, but it's ok.
-The Pod scene was good, but it felt like it could have been done a lot quicker....
Neutral:
-Jon's scenes did nothing for me and I find the others making artwork of corpses a bit weird tbh...I just can't imagine it.
-Show LF being Show LF
-I liked the silent exchanges during the chair dragging, but at the same time it felt a bit goofy to me - I felt the silence was too long.
Positive:
"She can do a Meereneese Knot" - Hah!
Craster licking his lips at Sam - Just great
I REALLY liked seeing how Jaime respects Brienne more and more and doesn't want her hurt - great acting from Nikolaj
Dany scenes were great too
Arya's goodbye from hot Pie - AWWWW :crying:
Catelyn's scene with Blackfish was amazing - I don't always like what they do with Catelyn, but this was good, and awesome acting from Michelle
Theon's scenes were great too, Alfie Allen is still one of my favourite actors on this show, and he doesn't disappoint. Can't wait for the Ramsay reveal (And chuckled at the "you little bastard)
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I'm going to give it a seven because I like most introduced characters, but it wasn't that strong of an episode...
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Oh and is it just me or does the show do a ton of foreshadowing... I mean like a LOT. There's no way that people who haven't read the books still don't know what's going to happen. With Margaery and Joffrey's "Could you kill something scene" and Lord Karstark telling Robb that he basically lost the war when he married Talisa. I know when I was reading the books, I was shocked that Robb married someone else but I honestly didn't think he would lose. Or die. The Red Wedding came as such a shock, and I feel that non-bookies are already preparing themselves for what's to come. I only hope that since GRRM told D&D the major points of the two unwritten books, that they won't feel it's necessary to add some foreshadowing for those too.
Good Point, in the books I had almost forgotten that marrying Jeyne was a problem, because it had worked out for quite some time. I know I was completely shocked by the RW.
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first of all I am very excited about The Season premiere.
Nothing really happened at the first episode except a nipple removing process and Khalesi assassination attempt. however the main questions for me remains why Is the episode titled 'Valar Dohaeris'? I mean, I know what it means and who its related to. But how, in seven hells, is it related to the episode?
Sure you are not confusing it with Valar morghulis? Valar dohaeris means "all men must serve" - mainly refers to Dany and the unsullied of course but can be connected to other plot arcs as well.
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8/10 I'd say
I liked most of the episode though I worry about how some of it is going to develop further into the season, but that's no reason to lower this episode's score
Positive:
Tyrion-Tywin scene was AMAZING. I was worried they were going to make Tywin too nice in the last season with Arya, but here he brings across perfectly how much he loathes Tyrion.
The Astapor scene overall worked good, I expected Valyrian too sound different somehow. Less...throaty? But that's a minor quibble. Although it bothers some, I think cutting the Belwas/Arstan storyline was a good decision, it really doesn't do much and saves some time.
I liked the dinner scene with Joffrey/Cersei, shows how much she lost control over him, and while it wasn't in the books, it could very well have happened that way, especially with an older Joffrey.
The compression with Davos was also done well I think - the talk between Salladhor Saan and Davos was uninteresting but I guess needed as setup.
Negative:
The charity scene felt very out of place...too modern in a way. It's not terribly out of character though. I wonder how much of it they're going to attribute to political cunning and how much to altruism.
Littlefinger is as blunt as always in the show, though I guess you could call it a virtue of not deviating from what's already been established.
The scenes in the north did not work for me.
They should have had Ghost staying with Jon. Him being a Warg was a large part of accepting him to the Wildlings. The entire storyline would have to work different for that though.
The "battle" on the fist was really weak. I do understand budget reasons but that just didn't work out....especially with the "huge wight army" cliffhanger from last season. (Also, here Sam doesn't send of the Ravens? How can you do that to him? Poor Sam! Didn't like that at all)
Mance and Tormund were a bit off to me, though that can be rectified. I did not buy Jon's "reason" to join the Wildlings at all. That just felt like BS to me. It just doesn't make sense. The book reason worked soo much better.
Neutral/Wonder where they're going with this
Huh, so Robb's at Harrenhal now...and Qyburn with him? I'm skeptical on this, especially since I don't like this storyline in the show to begin with (At least the only thing Talissa does here is tending the wounded and nothing more...)
Also, I still wonder how they're going to play out Roose Bolton now...Is Robb going to leave him at Harrenhal? I'd guess with Qyburn too and then they capture Jaime and hack his hand off?
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I'm really not happy with this episode. It just confirms that some of the storylines are indeed botched. Some if it may theoretically get fixed in S3 but I doubt it.
Minor points:
-Arya really should have killed someone herself, would be somewhat important for her character development
-I don't think it's really clear why Winterfell is burned or why the boys have to leave
-For the most part, the subtletly has been taken out of the books for the adaption. See Littlefinger, who is a lot less subtle than he's supposed to be. This is something I agree with. Yet, for some reason, subtlety has been *added* to Jon/Qhorin? From what I've seen, a lot of people have not understood why Jon killed Qhorin, because he never explicitely told Jon to do so. I see no reason why they had it like that.
Major points:
-A whole freaking army marches by Sam and ignores him? Wha?
-Dany's entire storyline was so useless. We can't take anything out of the prophecies because we can't be sure if D&D didn't just botch something up, but besides that nothing really happens. There were also really a lot of plot holes in the entire storyline
-So Robb marries Talisa because he wants to(not because he feels compelled to do by his honor), he does it with a clear mind (Instead of being stricken by grief), his mother knows about it yet does nothing besides trying to talk him out of it (Way to make Catelyn more weak imo...). I feared this would happen, it's just another way to finish off a bad storyline in the worst possible way really. Oh yeah and he swears by the seven. They changed his entire character really...
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Yes, I read what you wrote. You said you could accept it on the fact that sending a raven was too dangerous. I was replying that they wouldn't have told him even if it wasn't dangerous to send a raven.
Even if Tywin has his doubts, he doesn't push the questions. and further, there is no reason for him to believe that she is Arya or any other important girl. She is intriguing, but to him, nonessential. A point he proves when he leaves her as Gregor's cupbearer.
Now, to begin with, I never liked the fact that they put her as Tywin's cup bearer, instead of Bolton. But for that fact, Bolton never realizes who she really is in the books. You would think he would recognize his own Lord's daughter. Going on with this theme, it's not that far a stretch that Tywin doesn't know who she is either.
Early on in watching the television series, I've come to terms that this isn't the book. Things aren't going to be exactly the same. Some I like, some I don't, but I swallow it all for the sake of enjoying the show. If I sit here and nitpick the details, I'm not going to enjoy the show.
Regarding Tywin knowing about Arya: Well, okay, what you wrote just came over as a bit condescending because you mentioned how everyone has already explained a fact that I'm not even argumenting.
And I have no qualms with it only because it's a book deviation. I'm not a purist.
However, I disagree on "there is no reason for him to believe that she is Arya or any other important girl". While there is no direct reason to believe she's arya, there's more than enough to believe she's an important girl. Any highborn northern hostage could potentially mean up to a few thousand soldiers less working for Robb (Depending on how well he can use the girl to his advantage). That's far from not important.
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@greendream: Did you even read what I wrote? I have acknowledged Tywin doesn't know Arya is missing.
And while Arya has a nice story, the dialogue between them, and Tywin's expressions, make it clear that he doesn't buy it.
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@Arbor Gold I'm Sold
See you don't think Arya's answers were convincing enough, but I though they were very clever, clever enough to fool Tywin. Especially because he. does. not. know. Arya. is. missing.
Nobody ever told him. When Tyrion got to KL it was a shock to him, and he never told Tywin, because he wanted to try and find her first, and of he can't, then he can always put the blame on Cersei for letting her get away. That's why it makes sense he didn't think she was Arya, because in Tywin's mind, he would think that of she was missing, somebody would tell him. It's a perfect storm really, for why he does not know it was here. Again, her answers were also very convincing in my opinion.
The show makes it pretty clear that Tywin is not fooled by her disguise. While I could accept that he doesn't learn that Arya's missing(Sending such a message per raven could be dangerous if it is interrupted, so they would only send a raven if they deem it necessary).
However, it makes no sense that Tywin would not try to find out which family she is from. Even if she was "just" a Karstark, Umber, or whatever, it could potentially lead to Robb losing up to a few thousand soldiers.
On top of that, there aren't exactly many highborn northern girls running around in the south, so just that should make Tywin very suspicious...
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The same can be said of Tywin. If he did know she was Arya(I assume this wasn't the case), why leave her with Gregor? But if he didn't know exactly who she was, why did he make no move to find out who she is? There aren't exactly many northern highborn girls running around ready to be captured, so Tywin should at least be a bit intrigued who she is...but nope.
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Tywin's left Harrenhal in force and showed his continued admiration for the plucky girl cupbearer by giving her as a present to Gregor Clegane. That's so sweet. I can see how much she meant to him. A nice reminder that Tywin is still Tywin and doesn't really give a darn about the peasant help; even smart plucky ones. Maybe he thinks she'll domesticate the Mountain. :cool4:
I'm sorry but that's one of the main problems I have with this episode, because honestly it makes Tywin look like a fool. All those past episodes I though he knew who she was and just kept her around that way for his own specific reasons that were supposed to revealed later, and I was thrilled to see where this was going.
Yet now? Tywin realizes she's a highborn northern girl, yet make no move whatsoever to find out who she is? How many northern girls are running around in a war, I ask you? How come she was able to be captured when the Lannisters haven't even breached northern territory? How come that nobody told Tywin that Amory Lorch chased Arya five minutes before he got murdered? The show also lets Tywin assume he was the target of the murder where the way the killing happened clearly suggests he isn't (Lorch drops dead into his room with the dart already in his neck)
Tywin just appears to be big idiot instead of smart strategist. Way to ruin a role, imo.
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Ok, I was reserving judgement until now, but they officially botched Harrenhal by making Tywin look like a real fool. Why in seven hells would he just leave her there like that? Why does he make no connections to the assassination of Amory Lorch?
Whether I'm happy with the arya development will be decided with the last two episodes...
The chain will still come, don't worry.
Oh yeah, and I'm annoyed by the Talisa storyline. Apart from the obvious cheesy hollywood romance, how in seven hells does Catelyn allow Robb to act like that? After she has been arrested, fine, but she would have put a real stop to that from the moment she found out, with more than her stupid line of "I wish you could follow your heart" BS.
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While this episode had a rather big bunch of inconsistencies, some of the complaints are rather far-fetched and at times illogical themselves. If you're already in a bad mood because of errors, it can easily happen that you begin counting them and include more stuff than actually is supposed to be in there.
A thing I wanted to mention about the "teleportation": With so many different characters, it's really impossible to tell the story in any way with the time passed being synchronised, or even completely chronological. Martin has been pretty extreme here too. Littlefinger changing location every episode seems extreme, but you can't really tell how much time has passed.
About who stole the dragons: I might have to watch it again, but when first viewing it, it was obvious to me that this was Pyatt Pree, because the guy carrying it looked like him. Dom the amount of discussion about this, I might have been too quick to judge, but...edit: watched it again and yeah it's unclear, though I still believe it's pyatt pree. You get a quick glimpse of the foot, which looks wrinkled, and the arms also look a bit thin.
About tywin talking to a cupbearer: He doesn't talk with arya. He talks to her. Big difference. He doesn't care about her as a person. It seemed more like he was just reminiscing about the past by talking out loud.
I'm also disappointed about Sansa. Especially her line to Shae "But I can trust you" made me both cringe and facepalm. Cringe because Sansa had already been established about being a bit more clever than that....And facepalm for Sansa, because honestly? Yeah, you can totally trust the handmaiden that someone you don't know sent to you, replacing the old handmaiden. Right. >.>
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I'd give it a 8/10
It had some fantastic scenes (As others mentioned - Theons look when murdering ser rodrick is incredible) and I'm actually happy or at least indifferent about most changes from the books. First of all, they simply spice up the things for viewers who ahve already read the books, just because you want to know where they are heading with this. Besides that, most deviations until now haven't taken their course yet. I don't see how anyone can complain about Dany's dragons being stolen, Littlefinger appearing at Harrenhal(excluding his teleportation device) or Jon not acting the same way with Ygritte. We don't know what happens yet. They may just go back on the same course (similar as they did with the craster deviation) or they might think of something else that makes sense. Martin's source material is great, but not unimprovable.
There were some weaknesses though. Harrenhal is just plain illogical. The chase of arya across the courtyard, Tywin being far too confidential with her, especially after he caught her reading a letter with sensible information. The scene about lorch's dyslexia...All of these are things that just don't add up.
I also have to say that I think the scene with Ygritte stretched out far too long. The whole chase was unnecessary, imo. And Qhorin leaving Jon alone with her to kill her kind of seems forced and fake as well.
Nevertheless, I'm definitely pumped to see what will happen next week :)
[Book Spoilers] EP308 Discussion
in E08: Second Sons
Posted
Yeah, they brought up a plot part only to use it to create a plot hole a few minutes later - but if we did it differently, we couldn't have Mel undress.. -.-