Janicia

The SotH-affiliated prostitute isn’t the Harpy – Mereen is too hierarchical a society for the leader of an upper class resistance movement to be literally working as a low-end prostitute (she was working as a prostitute long enough to have that Unsullied as a regular customer, we see her entertaining a client again in the bazaar). The prostitute is a low-level supporter of the movement.

Dario isn’t the Harpy. He doesn’t have the Mereenese connections to be organizing a resistance movement for them. But it is interesting that he seems to have set up an intelligence service for Dany. He might have contacts in the movement. My guess is that he will turn on Dany in seasons 5 or 6, but maybe not.

Hizdahr might be the Harpy, but more likely is just a member of the movement / knows the right people. I think it makes for a better story if he’s just a decent guy trying to steer a sane path for his city in the face of chaos, than if he’s another Littlefinger.

Since those are the only options, I doubt the show is going to introduce us to The Harpy – more likely it will always be a grassroots group that we don’t fully understand.

So at the end of season 5, Dany loses control of Mereen and flies away, leaving Tyrion, Jorah, Dario, Missandei, Grey Worm, and Hizdahr. A member or two of Dany’s entourage might die or otherwise exit the story in the season finale. Any thoughts on how the dragons get out of the crypts without Quentyn? I guess Hizdahr or Dario could try to steal them, but after this week's episode, I doubt either would be so stupid.

In season 6, the show could pick up with Dany pointed toward Westeros and we never go back to Mereen. Tyrion and whomever else survives from Mereen could get on those boats and Dany could join them. Or whatever. In that case, we definitely don’t need The Harpy.

Alternatively, season 6 might open up with more Mereen presumably with Tyrion facing off against either Hizdahr or Dario. Maybe Missandei throws a wrench into things if she stops hero-worshipping Dany. In this case, presumably the Sons of the Harpy would continue to be a relevant faction in season 6.

I want to like Dany, I really do. She just makes it very hard. Again with the killing people who may or may not be guilty? Now forcing Hizdahr to marry her...all I could think about in that scene was that if the situations were reversed and it was Dany cowering on the floor, forced to marry the man who killed her father, being threatened with death if she didn't, we'd have tons of sympathy. But, Dany's pretty, I guess, so...yeah. I hated that. Just ew.

I think that scene with Hizdahr was supposed to be uncomfortable. The show really dwelt on Hizdahr's fear, and hasn't yet given us a reason to want bad things to happen to him.

My guess is that Hizdahr and Loras are intended as counterpoints to Sansa and other depictions of female victimization on the show. They don't want it to always be the women who are scared and helpless, threatened with rape, or shamed for their sexual choices. Margaery's virginity test would have been egregious so they're not going there. They also gave the High Septon a walk of shame to reduce the gendered nature of the punishment. And they put Dany and Margaery in much stronger positions in their marriages than they were in the books.

The show gets a lot of flak for reveling too much in the victimization of women. So I think they're trying to make it more about people using power to victimize other people.

I'm not saying every decision they're making is right. But I don't think we are supposed to be rooting for Dany's proposal technique.

It is not easy to climb up the Broken Tower in the case of emergency. It is not easy to light a candle either. And wouldn't the winter howling wind put it out within nanoseconds anyway? This is so stupid, my brain hurts. Yes, in case of emergency, do not go down fire escape. Play hopscotch in the corridor, then leap through some ring ropes, make a pirouette, sing the top song from the charts, play some video games and ... ah, wait a minute. I have been dead for a while.... Ah, well...

In Brienne's defense, since candles are a common source of light, she needs a signal that will be distinct from regular day-to-day activity. All the easily accessible windows probably have candles in them all the time.

And presumably Sansa could ask a servant to light that candle on a pretext rather than go herself.

The scene when Sansa walks threw the kennels i was totally expecting to see the rotten corpse of Rob Stark and Graywind all up sowed together

ANYONE ELTS?

I totally thought that Miranda was going to try to sic the dogs on her somehow. Never even occurred to me that it could be a corpse or a Theon. (I knew Sansa wasn't going to be mauled, but I thought Myranda would try and Ramsay or somebody would intervene.)

Dany's being worked over by Missandei. No idea why unless Missandei is the Harpy on the show, but tonight Dany wondered how things had turned so bad, and Missandei said it was because Dany didn't listen to her advisors and that's why Dany's successful? And Dany bought that? Newsflash: Dany's a disaster, and Missandei is encouraging it. This is not book_Missandei. And that's why D&D showed too much Missandei and Grey Worm: not the romance, but Missandei's character. (Maybe she's not the Harpy, but something's going on with her.)

My interpretation was just that Missandei believes in Dany's goodness. Dany personally rescued Missandei, and has always treated her as a friend. Dany's advisors kept telling her to leave Slaver's Bay, and Dany kept insisting on freeing slaves and trying to establish a benign rule. So while Missandei has Dany up on a pedestal, I think Missandei also trusts the gut instincts of another young woman who hates slavery more than Missandei trusts the instincts of Westerosi knights, slavers, or mercenaries.

There might be something fishy going on with book Missandei (she's insanely gifted especially for her age, her sense of hearing is weirdly powerful, and after Dany disappeared she started reading all the time). But I don't think the show has yet established that there is something fishy going on with show Missandei. You may be right, but there is a benign explanation so far.

Heres my line of thinking on that. She knows that one of the families must be at the very least funding the Harpies. So she takes the heads of all the families down to threaten them with the dragons to get them to talk. She picks one shes confident about that's not the leader and feeds him as an example. The reaction is all the other masters bow before Hizdahr (or her hard to tell) almost like they are begging him to stop it before they all die. Or maybe its simply that he was the one who wasn't afraid. Either way she picks up on this. Stops the torture and sends them to their cells. She has her man. So what should she do. She kills him he becomes a martyr for the Harpies and they continue their attacks. If she proposes to him he thinks he's reaching his goal of becoming the top man and taking her down. The attacks stop as they aren't necessary anymore. She now has bought her time to formulate a plan to take down the entire organization at once, probably with the reopening of the pits.

I noticed that Hizdahr remained standing as well. But I think Dany decided to marry him because he's the one she knows the best and she believes him to be non-threatening. It also seems like they've established a fair amount of trust - he's petitioned her a number of times over things and sometimes she's listened to him, sometimes not. So I think she feels like she has a good grasp on his agenda.

There is a definite possibility that the show will reveal Hizdahr to be another schemer-politician. He definitely could have been lying about his father's culpability with the crucifixion, and he could be strongly linked to the SotH. But it would almost be more interesting if he's just a fairly nice guy who decided to work with Dany to try to reduce Mereenese bloodshed.

At the same time if she's attempting to play a long game she's got to work on her facial expressions around the Boltons. She looks appalled/miserable like 95% of the time in their presence. Didn't they make it seem like she was going to fake nice with them when they first met?

Well, she's getting to know them better, and it becomes harder to fake nice.

At the same time if she's attempting to play a long game she's got to work on her facial expressions around the Boltons. She looks appalled/miserable like 95% of the time in their presence. Didn't they make it seem like she was going to fake nice with them when they first met?

Well, she's getting to know them better, and it becomes harder to fake nice.

Question is how. The only person that is alive that would know would be Reed and he has not been cast. Bran through the powers he is gaining could see the past but he has been cut out of this season. And Mel is not exactly spot on in understanding visions.

Melissandre found out about Gendry's existence and location from her fires in the show. And then she just told him, point blank, and suddenly his life made a lot more sense to him. That seems like an obvious way for the show to tell Jon. But Bran and Bloodraven are another obvious way. I doubt it will come from the Reeds in the show - Howland Reed hasn't been introduced at all. It would feel very deux ex machina to introduce him at this point just to tell Jon about his mother.

Well, without digging through this whole thread, I think the show gave some huge hints in support of R+L=J. The last episode, the Red Priestess who stared down Tryion seemed suggestive to me. Does all of this tend to support R+L=J and A+J=T and that D, T, J are the three heads of the dragon?

I think you're jumping to major conclusions with Tyrion. For one thing, the show has never suggested that any of Joanna Lannister's children aren't Tywin's. There has been absolutely no talk of the Mad King being interested in Joanna, and the father/son theme has been hammered home over and over with Tywin and Tyrion. The show also hasn't emphasized Tyrion's dragon obsession. If Tyrion being a Targaryan was going to be a plot point, there should have been some set up. And with a big Jon reveal to come, a big Tyrion reveal would probably feel over the top. GRRM is flirting with too many secret Targaryans in the books.

Further, Tyrion was at that moment making fun of the Red Priestess. The simple explanation for the stare was that she sensed that he was mocking her and she was not amused. Or she sensed that Tyrion was playing some kind of important role in the Dany saga, and that drew her attention. It is a long jump to go from "that guy is probably important in some way" to "that guy will ride a dragon".

Anyway, red priests are interested in all sorts of people, presumably for all sorts of reasons. Melissandre has a huge interest in Stannis, and has been interested in Arya, Shireen, Davos, Selyse, Gendry, Beric, ect. Thoros was interested in Beric, Arya, Robert, Sandor. In the books, Moquorro is interested in Victarion.

Finally, given that this is ASOIAF, I doubt that all three dragons make it out of Mereen. There are a lot of weapons in Mereen, and the dragons are a serious threat to the populace - surely somebody will shoot one down eventually. Anyway, I don't think GRRM wants to end this thing with another absolute monarchy backed by dragons. And not all of the prophecies in the story will be fulfilled - some will fail, or turn out to be misunderstandings.

So does anyone have an idea as to why the writers decided to off Barristan? He plays such a crucial role (at least I thought so) when Dany flies away. I cannot figure out a reason. Maybe I am not imaginative enough. What I am hoping is that they didn't just kill him off for shits and giggles. I assume they want to shake things up to keep the book readers guessing, but isn't it enough that they will/are ahead of the source material?

There are just too many characters. If they were to start over, Barristan might have been cut from the series entirely in favor of spending more time with Renly in season 1 and Jorah & Dario in seasons 3-5. But the reason to kill him off now is presumably that Tyrion and Jorah are going to arrive in Mereen this season and need something to do. And Dany has to lose control of Mereen in both a profoundly personal and convincingly large-scale way. Losing her last Westerosi advisor, the one who knew her family intimately, is a way to get Dany to that point.

My guess is that Barristan doesn't make it out of Mereen alive in the books, either. The eruption of chaos there probably will claim some character lives, and he's at the center of it, making enemies.

Jaime doesn't really free himself of the Cersei-PW until he ignores her letter after finding out she was fucking Lancel/Kettleblack. I would expect Bronn to reveal that to him at some point and when Cersei gets in trouble, Jaime refuses to return to her. Basically I believe it will be the same, his characterization is pretty consistent with the books up until this point, even on his Riverrun trip he thinks about being with Cersei despite knowing she wasn't faithful to him.

That's a good point, I forgot Bronn knew about that.

• So, that's what Melissandre was up to with Jon. Thought maybe the Shadowbaby trick would have an expiration date, but then I remember that when Stannis wanted another one after the BoB, she did tell him he was too weak. I love the idea that Sam and Gilly may abscond with Shireen, keeping her out of Mel's claws.

Since Melissandre had a conversation with Stannis about her important role in the war effort in the same episode, I think her attempt to seduce Jon must be related to the planned attack on Winterfell. And really, assassinating Roose would be a great help to Stannis. Ramsay would go beserk trying to find the killer but there would be wide-spread suspicion that Ramsay did it. Without Roose, the Boltons fall and Stannis is unopposed, especially because there isn't a huge Frey army up north in the show.

I thought when Jaime said "The next time I see him, I will split him in two" in this episode, it was bizarre. Well maybe that's because I'm a book reader but regardless, both on the show and in the books, I would believe that Jaime would understand WHY Tyrion did it, reason being he always copped shit from his dad, who himself wanted Tyrion dead ever since he was born! So I thought Jaime would have understood Tyrion's actions. I mean in the books Jaime isn't portrayed as, "I didn't tell him about Tysha, and now he kills father, I guess we're even' OR 'He killed father, I want him dead". So as I was reading, I had the impression that Jaime understood WHY he did it.

In the show, he also isn't portrayed of wanting to kill Tyrion UNTIL the very moment he said that, so it kind of came out of nowhere.... I mean like, he didn't express his anger earlier when with Cersei or anything..

I don't think Jaime would actually try to murder Tyrion. He's venting his anger rather than stating an actual plan.

But it is reasonable for Jaime to be furious with Tyrion. Tywin was holding Westeros together-ish with the Lannister family on top by shear force of will. Already the Boltons, Littlefinger, and the Iron Bank are openly moving against the Lannisters as a result of Tywin's death. Tywin's death emboldens the Tyrells and Martells and gives Stannis momentum. Tommen, Cersei, and Jaime are by definition at the center of the Lannister family collapse - Tywin's untimely death points directly toward those three heads going up on spikes sooner rather than later. Tyrion basically signed a death warrant for Jaime's family, right after Jaime saved his life. And Tyrion separated Jaime from the woman he loves.

I wonder if Varys is going to be mia for the rest of the season and then pop up in the finale.

I’m pretty sure Cersei told Meryn Trant to make sure Mace has an accident in Bravos, and Arya is going to interrupt that. Which makes a certain amount of sense – Trant is going to have to get away from the rest of the escort in order to make his move on Mace; which in turn will make Trant vulnerable to Arya. I’m very curious if the show is committed to the repercussions of political assassination causing diplomatic fiasco in Bravos and will slot that into the story going forward, or if it will be downplayed.

I had assumed Sansa would talk to Theon in the crypts, but I enjoyed that Sansa / Littlefinger scene. Still really looking forward to Sansa interacting with Theon.

Both Littlefinger and Jaime were tasked with expository dialogue to explain the logic of their deviations from their book story arcs. I’m becoming more convinced that Bronn is probably toast. Shame!

Sand snakes didn’t really work for me. But it is hasty to judge them on one scene.

I wondered if Melissandre was responsible for saving Shireen, as others speculated upthread. But if so, you’d think Melissandre might have mentioned that during her season 4 heart-to-heart with Shireen. Or Stannis might have said that in his scene this episode to explain to Shireen why he believes in Melissandre. And Selyse would probably like Shireen more if Shireen was an example of the Lord of Light’s miraculous power. So… probably not.

It was nice to see Tyrion being both clever and well-informed.

Seemed like Melissandre wanted to make a shadow baby, probably to kill Roose. And she definitely has thoughts on what to do with Shireen’s blood. :( I like the speculation upthread that Sam and Gilly abscond with Shireen. I hope they do! That would actually be a callback to Gilly’s plea to Sam and Jon in season 2, and again it would be Sam who focuses on rescuing the damsel while Jon is more focused on the bigger picture.

All I can come up with is she wants Littlefinger to testify against certain people who have used his brothels, Or, the money situation is so bad (she sent lord dummy with guard dirty-work... I'm assuming Mr. Tyrell isn't expected to come back as master of coin...) that she needs Pete Bailout for his funny money tricks.

Even though they had that threat scene (knowledge is power... power is power) I don't *Think* she sees him as a threat, really... just another player she has to work with/against at different times.

I'm not sure what the Dowager Queen has to offer Pete anymore though. No gold, lands seem to be all awarded out... not sure.

I think Cersei is gathering allies to make a move against Margaery. Clearly that was her intention with the High Sparrow, but I think that's also what she wants Littlefinger for.

From Cersei's perspective, Littlefinger has a pretty good track record. He was clearly competent with the realm's finances. He orchestrated her power move against Ned in season 1. He brokered the Tyrell alliance that saved her from Stannis in season 2. He ferreted out and revealed the Tyrell plot to steal Sansa in season 3. He helped keep Lysa and the Vale in the Lannister fold during the war. Littlefinger was generally aligned with Cersei and Joffrey against Tyrion in season 2, while Varys was aligned with Tyrion. Littlefinger had Tywin's stamp of approval (Tywin rewarded him with Harrenhal and approval for the Lysa marriage).

So Cersei thinks of Littlefinger as a long-term henchman / ally, who has been well vetted and amply rewarded for his services. And Cersei working with Littlefinger makes a lot of sense for the show, instead of bringing in the various tertiary characters from this point in the books that Cersei makes the mistake of trusting.

It is ironic that Cersei has been throwing away the one actual Lannister henchman with brains that she inherited from Tywin: Pycelle. I'm looking forward to the final Pycelle / Cersei falling out that the show has clearly been moving toward.

That's their father; their FATHER versus... a guy she met like twice. I'm sorry, that is not a great comparison. Brienne's motivation is duty, so I get that, but she was the sworn sword to a traitor-King... and then sworn to Cat ... and then Joff... Jesus... so... Brienne takes her duty seriously... unless it interferes with the story... The book, its more clear; she went from Renly to Cat and the to Stoneheart after, you know, they nearly kill her. That makes some bit of sense. And she is no longer really hung up on Renly because, well, real life has gotten in the way of that shit.

Brienne's motivation in the show is pasted on; its there to remind us all "Hey- everyone, THIS IS HOW STANNIS WILL DIE!!!" Its not smart, interesting, clever, deft, or well done. Its just there.

In the show at least, Brienne swears her sword to Catelyn on the condition that Catelyn will release her to go after Stannis when the time comes. Brienne's oath to Catelyn was always secondary to her duties as Renly's kingsguard - she's just put the Renly / Stannis stuff on the backburner because she didn't have an opening to do anything about it.

And clearly Renly wasn't just "some guy Brienne met twice". She went to war for him by her own choice. He took her seriously as a knight and put her on the kingsguard. Apparently he was kind to her in the past at an important moment. He was murdered on her watch, and everything has gone to shit since. Brienne has Renly on a high pedestal.

Further, why should Brienne serve Catelyn's memory the rest of her life? Catelyn got her out of Renly's camp. That is a big thing, but it is just one thing, and Brienne has been through a hell of at lot trying to serve Catelyn since then.

Anyway, just because one character wants to kill another character doesn't mean that's how they'll die. Characters almost never get to actually achieve their goals. GRRM must have a pretty spectacular end in store for Stannis, and it isn't very likely to involve Brienne. So maybe the show deviates, but they tend to try to hit GRRM's crescendos.

This just made me remember. What was up with that long look from the Red Priestess? Will she facilitate Tyrion getting to Dany? Will she warn Dany? Will she do nothing but stare? Tune in next week, folks. or the week after that.

I took it to mean that she knew Tyrion was making fun of her, and also probably knew way too much about Tyrion and Varys. Just a kind of "don't mess with the red priestesses because they're powerful and scary" moment.

Brienne of Nowhere Near Tarth: I really liked how Brienne is self-aware enough to know that Pod needs her and she needs Pod to be better than he is. Training Pod is great.

Oh, but her still wanting revenge for Renly? Bored. Out of my Mind. Who gives a shit? Her desire to revenge a character who died 3 seasons ago is utterly uninteresting. She should get obver it. That would be cool. Instead? We know how Stannis will die: in a stupid, lame revenge plot. …. Hooray .... said nobody ever.

Arya and Sansa both desperately want revenge for Ned's death from 4 seasons ago, and a bunch of people still reference Ned and mourn for him. Renly was an important person - a great lord, brother to the king, pretender to the throne, and he was basically a good person. He should be mourned and remembered. And he died in front of Brienne while she was supposed to be protecting him. Brienne is never going to "get over" Renly's death, especially not while Stannis still lives.

Anyway, Brienne is going to have trouble going forward, since she is going to fundamentally hate both the Stannis and Bolton factions. Will make her movements tricky.

Anyonw else catch the fact that the High Septon was made to do A Walk of Shame? Hmm, telegraphing future events a bit here. A bit heavy handed of D&D in my opinion.

The show has to set up that Cersei makes a lot of mistakes, but they have to do it efficiently - no time for side-plots. Cersei was looking for allies against Margery, so she brings in LF and the High Sparrow. We already know that LF is a dangerous ally. But this set-up lets us know that the High Sparrow is also a dangerous ally for Cersei and she should have known better than to empower him.

agreed. It's actually really annoying how much the show has blurred the line and turned her into a grey character who we're almost lead to feel bad for now for "losing" her children as she has.

She better do something sinister soon if they want TWoS to hit at the end of the season. Or else that's going to be very awkward.

Isn't she about to have the High Septon murdered?

But TWoS isn't supposed to be a fist pump moment, or an example of justice served.

Do you think that no one in HBO remembered about this KG?

After all whoever he was, he was one of the 7 "best" knights in the Realm...

It isn't that the show forgets about this guy - they went to the effort of including him in the script, casting him, costuming him, including him in the shot. But the show isn't particularly interested in how the institution of the Kings Guard works. Further, the show is juggling more than 100 named characters per season. It is absurd to expect the shot to also check in with the unnamed characters that had 5 seconds of screen time.

Conceivably, his purpose was to escort Myrcella to Dorne, and he returned to Kings Landing ages ago. Or he's offscreen in Dorne somewhere throughout season 5. The Kingsguard are not the best knights in the kingdom anymore; he might be living the easy life in Dorne rather than following Myrcella around everywhere. Or maybe he died somehow in the years since Myrcella traveled to Dorne. Or maybe he has a terrible flu during the week of Jaime's visit.

I still think Varys kills him, which will be a surprise because he is so far away. I don't think it will be Cersei because that would mean she basically committing the same crime as Tyrion. Cersei is gonna be dealing with a lot.

I think Varys could hire an assassin and we would see the murders during a Varys voice over, similar to LF's ladder speech. But maybe Kevan just hunkers down in Casterly Rock offscreen for the rest of the season and somebody poisons Pycelle or executes him for treason during the KL power struggle.

I have a question:

In the Books Selmy sides with Ned in going against Robert and council for killing Danny and her child, this week episode he tells her about her father and him burning people with wildfire; he was not in on the meeting in season one when the hit was put on her and the child so how will she learn that the reason she is alive is because of Ned, does anyone think she will learn it?

I don't think it matters much. Ned is dead. Whichever Stark kids Dany eventually meets will have their own resumes for Dany to judge them by.

And while Ned disapproved of the sack of KL and the assassination attempt on Dany; he and Dany were enemies. Ned went to war to remove her father from power and he would have gone to war again to fight against Dany's invasion. If Dany allies herself with any Starks in the future, it won't be on account of Ned's honor, it will be a result of the political situation Dany finds herself in and the personal connection she might have with the individual Stark. And if Dany and Starks fight against each other in the future, there will be a lot of reasons for that, not just the attempted assassination.

It is not clear to me if Varys is only bringing Tyrion to advise. Does he know or suspect Tyrion's true parentage? Also just how much of the travel story is going to be cut out? Surely they have to separate Varys and Tyrion. Because one of the primary issues in book Tyrion's situation is that even though he ends up in Mereen, Danny has no reason to know or trust him.

Even if Tyrion is a secret Targaryan in the books, he probably won't be one in the show. The show hasn't established that only Targaryans can ride dragons so it does't need Tyrion to have Targaryan blood. And it is far from guaranteed that Tyrion will be a dragon rider in either medium. Those dragons are probably going to start dying soon.

Anyway, it would be cheap to undercut the Tyrion / Tywin relationship by pulling a "oops you weren't Tywin's son after all" plot development.