Phill P

12 hours ago, Lord_Weirwood said:

To play the devil's advocate, and why I was originally skeptical of this, faking her death in such a manner would gain Arya very little considering the risk involved.  Since the waif is a far superior fighter, trying to manipulate a surprise attack like that would probably get her killed, even if she could be sure of exactly where and how the waif would stab her. And it's not as if the FM are careless; if they really want her dead they'll be highly suspicious if no one actually witnesses her dying and the waif can't account for her body or face. But more importantly is the fact that if she gets out of Braavos without faking her death, she obviously would need to lay low for a very long time after getting to Westeros (as she'll obviously have to do regardless of the Faceless Men). On the other hand, if she fakes her death, she'd be doing the exact same thing anyways, since once word got out that Arya is alive, the hunt would be on again. Having the opportunity to escape, it would make little sense to try to one-up the FM in one last machination, especially considering her past failure to either deceive or hide any aspect of herself from them.

 

Could be but I doubt it. Remember when Arya killed the man on her list and then got told off for it? A life had to be taken to balance it. That was when we learned that as long as a life was taken in payment the slate was clear, so to speak.

So I don't think if Arya escapes that the FM will hunt her down because that's inconsistent with the narrative so far.

She wasn't really cut out to be an assassin anyway. She's had 2 jobs and messed them both up. The first by killing someone she wasn't told to and the second by not killing someone she was. The first death was paid for, the second has yet to be. Either Arya or the Waif will do.

Anyway that's what I think. Arya will kill the Waif and then the boss man will let her go - with a huge sigh of relief, most likely.

And it makes Ayra a better character. She kills, yes, but only when she has some personal involvement in the situation, such as when she sees injustice or for revenge. Obviously killing for revenge isn't healthy but at least she isn't a completely cold blooded assassin who, when you get past all the crappy pseudo philosophy to try and make it sound noble, basically just kills for money.

21 hours ago, WolfWarg said:

Should have read this first before I posted - my thoughts exactly  : ) Or almost exactly as I don't think she needs to heal as I believe she used pouches of blood.

Yes I wrote that before seeing the preview for the next episode, then thought oh, so she faked being wounded too. Nice. And thematically, although it seems more drawn out and elaborate, it fits. Arya has made a mess of being an assassin and can't beat the Waif in a straight fight. So she goes back to what she knows and sets up a running chase where she can use all her experience from chasing cats etc.

2 hours ago, Morna The Maid said:

Phil P: Yes, I've read the books and know how Cersei really is. That' the point. All the stuff you mentioned, I don't see any of that on the show. Back in Season 4 I belive, we saw the Iron Bank in one episode, but where did that plotline go? When have we heard about Cersei giving the finger to the IB? And I got the impression this season that Cersei did want power oh yes, but she would have known EXCACTLY how to "handle it" if that pesky High Sparrow creature didn't magically appear (like the show repeatedly reminds us, it was *Cersei* who re-legitimized the FM Order--um, NOT) and those danged Tyrells weren't in the way, raining on the parade, doing stuff like seducing sweet innocent clueless Tommen away from Mommy.  Before this season, the Tyrells were kinda kewl, but now that they're in cahoots with the HS apparently...now all of a sudden it's like, OMG Cersei/KL  is in danger, let's off this HS punk for Westeros's sake. Like they came out of nowhere and just exploded into this socio-political threat. They didn't come from nowhere, not even on the show...but it's amazing how quickly we are being made to forget things.

 

Like the Red Wedding and how outraged we were, in spite of the fact that we knew Robb had screwed up.

Like how Sandor wasn't just about revenge against his brother, but finding his "little bird." Dave and Dan have pretty much killed that; Sansa stopped being anyone's "little bird" on, say, a certain wedding night. I wonder if they'll ever meet again (not impossible, since he was mentioned, sort of, in a Sansa and Brienne scene a few eps ago) but what will he think when he looks into her cold dead eyes. The face and eyes of a hardened woman....not the relatively unscathed--and certainly still maiden--young girl from the books whose first sexual awakening is unknowingly (to him) engendered by him. At the end of Book 5 Sansa has budding sexual feelings and dreams of the Hound kissing her get in the way as she goes about the Vale watching LF play politics with the Lord of the Vale, learning to flirt with boys her own age,  and as she becomes foster parent to SweetRobin. Dave and Dan have simply  killed one of the two great Beauty and the Beast "romances" of the books.

This is one of the reasons book readers were so upset and continue to be, about her rape in S5. The story of book Sansa and the Hound was one of the few tender interludes in a grim story. Tender on reflection of course. It's hugely important b/c in a story that descends into hell and everyone is out for their own skin, she teaches this cold killer to feel his first compassion for a human being; he could never have eventually felt about Arya the way he did in book and even more so in the show if not for her.  ("the wetness on his cheek that was not blood" etc.) She humanizes him, What he gave to her...well, her fantasies about knights. This may be strange, but there it is. We grasp for any human decency in this story no matter how small, and D/D have turned it into all revenge, revenge, revenge.

Which brings me to Jamie "I dreamed of you" Lannister. He says that to..Brienne, in the book. Well, if spoilers for future episodes be true, that "romance" is offically dead as well.

The "valonqar" part of the prophecy was signifigantly cut out of the show, which means Cersei will not be killed by her "little brother" (be that Jamie or Tyrion.) Nope, with the way things are going, they'll probably be the last 2 Lannisters alive and will die tragically and beautifully in each others'  arms.

 

Tyrion wants to kill Cersei? Really? I didn't know that. It's not  like he mentioned his "sweet sister" in any sarcastic kind of way since 5X01, I could be wrong, he barely mentioned her at all, and that phrase, never. Maybe he will in the book, but I find it hard to believe that the show's two Black Hole Sues would ever stoop to something so low and sordid..on TV at least.

 

See I'm differentiating between what's in the book and what future generations will remember as the definative version of ASOIAF. Yes, we may get all the books eventually, but this is a post-literate world. George can talk all he wants about GWTW book vs movie but I'll bet you 5 out of 100 people under 50 have read or will read GWTW, and that's just ONE book. No, you sat GWTW everyone knows it by the movie.

 

 

You say you are differentiating but you are not, you switch from what the books say to how bad the show is to what people will remember - all in your highly questionable opinion.

In book 5 Tyrion states he wants to kill Cersei. In the show he barely mentions her but it is not hard to imagine that he wants personal revenge on the woman who has always looked for any excuse to kill him and whose actions forced him to do everything he did.

We see Cersei ignoring money problems in the episode where she appoints her advisors, who are clearly both sucking up to her and not fit for the job. Also in the books, although Cersei does not empower the Faith Militant directly she does ask the High Sparrow to excuse her debts to them and he refuses - unless she lets him reform the Faith Militant. So their power still comes from her, whether she chose it or was manipulated into granting it.

So yes, she is aware of both the debt to the Iron Bank and the Faith Militant, and of doing nothing about either.

In both books and show it is clear that what brings Cersei down is her own inability to rule effectively. She would be unable to with or without the Faith around. GRRM himself has said before that her problem is she wants power but doesn't know what to do with it, and I'll take his word for it because it is clear she is out of her depth, both in the books and the show, with nobody to blame but herself.

As for any other stuff I saw and you didn't, I can't help you with that. Nor with your desire to pour scorn me with unnecessarily sarcastic responses such as "really?"for not agreeing with you. That's your problem too. Really.

42 minutes ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Oh I hope my "don't believe me"  didnt come off as bad as it sounds with your reply. If It did my apologies. But yes I agree with you all the way. Though I tend to agree with the show bashers. However I still enjoy it as I'm a sucker for anything fictional. Anyway I'll stop derailing the thread now. 

All and all the episode was a 5 out of 10 stars. But it was a setting up the dominoes episode so maybe 6 out of 10 in that case. 

Well I could criticise any show thing for being rushed or badly executed but you always can. I also thought book 5 was a badly constructed mess, to be fair. The only bits that really bother me in the show are the bits they completely make up. With so much source material I don't see the need to invent things. Having things happen for different reasons, ok, even happening to different people, ok, but making up stuff that isn't in the books at all, like a lot of the Dorne stuff, I didn't see the need for that.

7 minutes ago, Morna The Maid said:

1) unlike George, who presents all Houses equally in their respective strength and flaws, making you root for everyobdy, Dave and Dan have their favorite Houses and actors and are going to absurd lengths to serve their own personal fan-service. With themselves as the "fans" in this case.

 

2) INSTEAD it's a one-sided fight. D/D's great sin is making the North hate the Starks more then they should. If the Starks are so evil, just who exactly do the Northern Houses want to rule instead? the Boltons? There seems to be no northern unity (which is exactly the opposite of the books, where the Stark children are loved simply b/c Ned and Rickard were such great rulers, they will support them. Any sins are seen as Robert's cuae, not theirs. And tonight clinches it; D/D officially hate the Starks, since they had Sansa raped and Arya serioulsy wounded, after being repeatedly beaten to a pulp.

 

3) At the same time, they are commiting a mortal sin: they are making characters boring. Tryion and Cersei esp have become Black Hole Sues, they can do no wrong.

 

1) On the contrary, in the books it is pretty clear to me that the Lannisters are the worst when it comes to childish spite and vindictiveness. The other rulers of other houses may be vain, stupid, cruel and self centered in their own way, but I can't see any of them wanting to humiliate their bride as Joffrey did to Sansa. Except for Ramsey of course, but he is an exception who is out of control anyway.

And even Ramsey would not think he could hold Kings Landing by surrounding himself with sycophants and ignoring massive debts and the outside world. Only Cersei was silly enough to think that would work. She wanted power but when she got it she didn't have a clue what to do with it. This happens in the books and the show.

2) To a great extent it is simplified but in this episode it was made clear that at least one house was more scared of being flayed than they were of Jon and Sansa. So at least some of them have been cowed by Bolton barbarity and the fear of reprisals, so it has nothing to do with hating the Starks at all.

We have also seen that one of the big problems all the houses have is with their rulers being legitimate, and we see it again here. Despite the repeated evidence that being born within wedlock does not guarantee a good ruler, many still place value on it so they won't accept anyone who isn't. Being a bastard is still seen as bad for no other reason than pure prejudice, so with Rickon captured and Bran missing they see no legitimate Stark heir to follow. Nothing to do with hating the Starks either, just traditions people refuse to let go of.

Ramsey and Jon are changing that, but slowly. This is a common and even overwhelming theme in the books and the show. The fact that people do not want to give up their old ideas and grudges is why none of them can see the real threat, and only those who dare to think in new ways make progress.

And it is no coincidence that in the books and in the show it is the misfits who get things done, not the ones who believe in their "legitimate" right to rule and refuse to change their ways. They have different ways of making that point but it doesn't change that in this sense at least the show is absolutely true to the spirit of the books.

3) See previous point about Cersei's stupidity, which she was even called on in this episode. Doesn't sound like she can do no wrong to me, sounds like she is being recognised for the fool she is.

As for Tyrion, I think some of his policies may come back to bite him so I don't see him in the clear either. I don't think being stuck running a city while the queen invades Westeros was his gameplan. He wants to kill Cersei himself.

Just now, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Though, I don't think the Showrunners are all that good as the show is par at best of times I also look at prior work- the 25th hour I liked but common a halo movie flop the director basically saying blame the writer because he killed it. Anyway ultimately doesn't matter because of the work they did here has signed their tickets and they can basically do ANYTHING they want in Hollywood. And they could just piss on my opinions Don't believe me? Wait and see.

I don't disbelieve you. You may well be right. I hope they don't get arrogant though and maybe even learn to write better stories in future, using this experience to learn from both the good bits and the mistakes. That said, I don't think they are anywhere near as bad as some here.

7 minutes ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

Wish I could convince myself Arya is in danger, but it's not gonna happen. If she was dead, she'd already be dead. Not stumbling around Braavos.

Good thing this is one of the rare FM failures! Good thing the waif didn't go for her heart or throat! Or pursue her at all! 

Arya isn't that stupid and for all that some people think the show runners are incapable of subtlety or misdirection I don't think that's true either.

The Waif is already dead. The Waif got played.

Arya knows she cannot hide so she sets a trap. She staged the whole thing.

She lets it be known she wants to leave. Throwing money around, being nice and loud, making sure lots of people hear it. Then she finds a spot where she can escape if attacked and stands there waiting, apparently without a care in the world.

This bait is too much for the Waif to resist and she catches and stabs Arya.

But the Waif is a sadist who gets off on humiliation. She could have slashed Arya's throat straight away but she chose a belly slash because it takes longer to die from. She wants Arya to suffer. She stops to make a point of showing Arya her face. Arya escapes but that's fine too. It appeals to her to let Arya bleed out with time to think about it. It also leaves a small window for Arya to get healed.

Arya allows herself to be stabbed, pushes the Waif away and throws herself over the bridge. She makes a big play of being mortally wounded with plenty of witnesses as she staggers through the streets dripping blood, knowing this information will get back to the assassins.

Then she hides and heals herself with stuff she has prepared and stashed already. Last week we saw her in the dark with Needle and I thought she was waiting for the Waif. Now I think she was preparing a place to rest and heal.

The Waif walks away with that annoying smirk she has, then starts feeling dizzy, then realises when Arya pushed her away she gave her a tiny scratch...

Or Ayra will just get better then hunt down the Waif and run her through with Needle. Whichever.

Like a lot of people have said here, I'm also bored with the Faceless Ones, mainly because they don't make any sense.

They are all supposed to be nobody yet the Waif has clearly enjoyed beating, tormenting and humiliating Arya as evidenced by the smug little smirk on her face every time she gets to give Arya more hassle. She has emotions, desires, an ego and a sadistic streak. That's a personality, which gives her an identity. So she is not nobody, she is somebody.

Maybe that's the point, that you can never entirely be nobody, that some kind of personality will always remain, but it's still rubbish. Even assassins that are not part of some secret group can be dispassionate. The Waif enjoys it too much, she's like a female Ramsey.

Logically Arya should be able to point this out and discredit her but that wouldn't be dramatic enough and anyway she seems to be the main guy's favourite. Also an emotion, favouritism.

The sooner Arya carves her up and moves on the better. I really hope killing the Waif isn't another stupid test.