Maesters and the Faith of the Seven

[Northern Bob]

Right, been on these forums for quite a while now and have never posted a theory but just finished a re-read and there is something I have been thinking about that I thought I would put it up here. As always with these things apologies in advance if this encroaches on someone else’s post, I know that a lot has been written about the Maesters so it is likely someone else has thought of this first but my searches did not reveal this exact link so here goes…

Do Maesters tolerate or even ‘push’ the Faith of the Seven because they believe it to be false and it allows them to continue to shape the world on a scientific, anti-magic basis?

Firstly, on the validity of the Faith, as pointed out by numerous posters and described in detail by the excellent History of Westeros podcast all of the other major religions of Westeros have at some point demonstrated, to some extent, their power. Through Bloodraven, Bran, Jojen et al we have seen the power of the Old Gods. Through Mel, Thoros and Moqorro we have seen the power of R’hllor. You could even argue that through the drowning/reviving process we see the power of the Drowned God. However, there are, to my knowledge, no such examples from the most influential, powerful and most widely practiced religion on the continent.

In addition to this, if we accept that the Andals escaped Essos in part to escape those magic-loving Valyrians can we not also assume that their faith offered them no defence against such magic? Surely if the Faith was ‘valid’ and the deities real then surely it would have offered some protection against the blood and fire of Valyria?

Is it possible that, unlike the Old Gods and R’hllor, the Faith did not start as a religion as such, and by that I mean worship of a deity or deities, but as a philosophy on how to live, like Buddhism in our world, that subsequently became a conventional religion?

When you think about the central teachings of the Faith, with 7 facets of one person, you see a guide for men and women about how to behave in different circumstances and at different times of your life; as the father, to act justly, as the smith, to act with strength, the warrior, to act with courage, as the mother, to act with compassion, as the maiden, to act with virtue, and the crone, to act with wisdom. Obviously the stranger is slightly different but still teaches the individual to deal with death.

My theory is that mysticism was added to the teachings in order to convert others and that, once this had happened, it was a short leap to full deification of the 7 elements. This would also give the controllers of the faith, i.e. the septons, the ability to control and dominate others in the way that religions do in our own world.

And this is where the Maesters come in.

Other people, with much greater knowledge of the books than I, have already postulated theories on a Grand Maester Conspiracy (GMC) so I will not go into great detail on this. However, I will say I think the promotion of the Faith could be closely tied up with this. There is nothing in the teachings of the Faith that goes against the practices of the Maesters; in acting the way suggested, as outlined above, the Faith promotes learning, compassion and dedication, all things one would expect in a qualified Maester.

Compare this to what a Maester is likely to think of the central teachings of other religions; the fanaticism, antagonism and magical practices, specifically sacrifice, of R’hllor, the mysticism and, occasional, barbarism of the Old Gods and the martial culture of the Drowned God. Whilst a Maester may serve a castle where one of these religions is followed they are unlikely to see them as virtuous and complimentary to their teachings.

There are also similarities in the structures of the Faith and the Maesters; a rigid hierarchy that is, largely, safe from the meddling of the King and other conventional powers, i.e. the Maesters, though the Conclave, choose their own Archmaesters and Grand Maester, the Most Devout pick the new High Septon. Whilst we do not have a reliable history of the founding of the Citadel is not possible that they influenced the structure of the Faith in the same way that the Roman Empire enforced a mirror of its own structure upon the Catholic Church?

If the Conclave see the Faith as a benign force that compliments their own position would it not make sense to promote the following of their faith? A reasonable retort would be to question why they would need to promote any faith but given that most of the population would be uneducated the Maesters are likely to understand that something mystical is needed to explain the higher mysteries without resort to learning – the opium of the masses to quote that lovable German rogue, Marx.

I have to admit that despite going through the books I have found no clear cut examples of Maesters promoting the Faith but there are some debateable examples of them defending it or criticising other faiths; Cressen trying to prevent Mel burning the 7 on Dragonstone, Luwin telling Bran there is no magic in the world, Pycelle criticising the Red God, etc. On top of this there are the various citations of proponents of the GMC showing their attempts to limit the influence of magic and/or the dragons, specifically the conversations between Sam and Marwyn at the end of Feast.

This whole theory may be of little consequence for the overarching story of ASOIAF and I suppose that, if I am on to something, it may just form a small part of the argument of the GMC, but I do find it interesting. I also think that as someone brought up on Catholicism who gave up the faith (much like me, might I add) GRRM would be tempted to slip in a completely constructed religion with vast political power amongst all the magic and mysticism in the rest of his world.

What do you think?

[Dragon Roast]

Nicely done. With GRRM pulling from our world's history there is a nice mash-up of the medeival Catholic Church and the need that so many Asian courts had to acquire their own Confucian scholars trained by the proper Confucian Institute. It kind of makes sense for their to be a religion base less on magic and more on political and philosophical considerations.

Still, Davos thought he heard The Mother and that she saved him--so perhaps The Seven have some magical skin in the game.

[Northern Bob]

I suppose that could be one example; it did appear as though Davos died on the Blackwater, I was certainly surprised when he showed up in aSoS. Given his reluctance to submit to R'Hllor, despite his devotion to Stannis, you could view his survival in the context of divine intervention.

To take things in a slightly different direction there could be 'truth' in the Faith but the Maesters could be using the structures of the religion to further their own ideas.

[History of Westeros]

Very interesting idea. I'm not sure the timeline fits but I do agree that the Maesters most likely prefer the Seven to all other religions.

The early stories about the Andals make them sound quite zealous but even ancient Buddhists went to war, so I suppose it's possible the root of Seven worship is based in philosophy. It would be interesting to learn how long the Andals had been developing their culture before they started to migrate. I have considered that chivalry "protect the weak" is quite the opposite of the Valyrian "enslave the weak" ideal, and magic/anti-magic is certainly another, but there's no evidence one triggered the other at all. Maybe the WOIAF will give us a little more.

The timeline problem seems to be that the first historians were Septons, which strongly hints the Maesters didn't really exist when the faith was settling itself. Perhaps since they've come along they have changed the church, but as you say there's no evidence or suggestion for that.

Even if the theory doesn't work, this is still a very perceptive observation on how the Maesters as a political entity view the Faith. They are natural allies in many ways. It might be useful to examine some of the maester/septon relationships as we see them. Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind is Septon Cellador and Maester Aemon not being terribly agreeable, but that's not much.

[Northern Bob]

Good point about timelines, if the Faith was present long before the Citadel then there would be very little scope for the Maesters to influence the overall structures of the organisation, although it wouldn't necessarily prevent one or the other having an influence on the actions or philosophy of the other further down the line. I do believe there is a natural symbiosis between the two orders.

Ultimately though, if you cannot cite specific examples of what you are saying then there is probably not much to the theory so I will park this one!