Lady Stoneheart: To catch a Lannister

[sapphire_lion]

the right and wrong lol! this is about northern vengeance and I for one support it! King in the north!

Sure, because GRRM writes stories where the wronged heroes get their well-deserved vengeance on the baddies.

That's what George is going for. King in the North! Fvck Yeah!

Psst, the morality of UnCat’s actions will be an important part of the narrative.

UnCat is committing the same crimes that were committed against her:

breaking her oath

breaking guest right

attempting to kill an innocent child

killing people without a fair trial in order to get her vengeance

Now, she is plotting to ambush and murder Jaime for his perceived oath breaking, when she and her son were ambushed and murdered for their actual oath breaking. The hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I’m sympathetic to UnCat in many ways, but let’s not pretend that some of the things she’s doing aren't despicable.

Edit: fixed typos

[LordStoneheart]

UnCat is committing the same crimes that were committed against her:

breaking her oath - the evidence says Brienne broke it first, and nothing to contradict it. thrown out.

breaking guest right - she never offers guest right. it was not her who fed and took in brienne. Gendry and the Heddles did. thrown out.

attempting to kill an innocent child - Pod is a Lannsiter squire, not an innocent child by war time standards. thrown out

killing people without a fair trial in order to get her vengeance - when did this happen? she killed Merrett because he was a perpetrator and she knew it. thrown out.

Now, she is plotting to ambush and murder Jaime for his perceived oath breaking, when she and her son were ambushed and murdered for their actual oath breaking. The hypocrisy knows no bounds. - there's no way for her to know that Jaime kept his oath. because he fucking didn't, he passed it onto Brienne and hoped she would make it across Westeros unharmed as a one-woman army. thrown out.

I’m sympathetic to UnCat in many ways, but let’s not pretend that some of the things she’s doing are despicable. - I assume you wrote this wrong. I don't claim her actions aren't despicable. war is not a pretty place. But her vengeance is a god-given right according to their customs and beliefs, so I don't hold anything she does against her. She's fighting a war. bad things tend to happen in wars. life is funny like that.

[sapphire_lion]

Of course she doesn't. But she's claiming she is while the evidence says different. It's not an excuse. It's analyzing the text, something you don't seem to grasp. All the evidence points to Brienne being a Lannister ally, which would be breaking Catelyn's oath first.

No, Hollow Hill is their base just as it was in Storm. They may lure guests there, but that is not their real operating place. I don't know how that isn't clear.

Guest right is no longer what it used to be because the Freys broke it. Not just at the wedding, but they broke the tradition all across Westeros, elsewise we wouldn't be hearing about it from all over the realm.

What you don’t seem to grasp is that I don’t buy your blathering loop hole excuses.

UnCat is murdering people who believed they had guest right.

She has broken her oath to Brienne.

She is wrongfully hanging innocent people along with the guilty ones.

She is becoming as bad as Walder Frey.

Catelyn has learned from her mistake, which is why she's not trusting Brienne solely on her word, and that's completely the right call. Words are wind, and Brienne's explanation is flimsier than a Yunkish slave's cock.

She learned nothing because she is wrong and making the same mistake. She put her family in a terrible situation by kidnapping Tyrion. She judged him based on circumstantial evidence. She's doing the same to Brienne.

Edit: fixed typos

[LordStoneheart]

She learned nothing because she is wrong and making the same mistake. She put her family in a terrible situation by kidnapping Tyroin. She judged him based on circumstantial evidence. She's doing the same to Brienne.

You call them loopholes, I call it direct evidence we get from the text. I guess that's the difference between us so lets be done with it. This is going in circles anyway so I suggest we end it here. Again, Cat has every reason to doubt Brienne, even more so than she had with Tyrion (which she also had good evidence for based on what she did know.) The only reason she's making a mistake is because we as readers know Brienne's quest and word is true. But believing Brienne on her word would be the epitome of mistake. She would be completely justified in hanging Brienne from a trial point of view since all the evidence is stacked against her except her word. Brienne has broken her oath in Cat's eyes. Just because that's not the truth as we know doesn't mean it's a bad call on Cat's part. It's the right call.

Have a nice night.

[sapphire_lion]

I don't claim her actions aren't despicable. war is not a pretty place. But her vengeance is a god-given right according to their customs and beliefs, so I don't hold anything she does against her. She's fighting a war. bad things tend to happen in wars. life is funny like that.

I don't judge UnCat for wanting revenge. I judge her for hurting innocent people who have never harmed her. Nothing gives her that right.

She doesn't get a free pass to commit whatever atrocities she likes, because she's at "war". Or if you'd like to set that precedent, you might want to extend the same courtesy to House Frey. It would be less hypocritical. Remember, they were betrayed by the Starks. They launched a sneak attack to get their vengeance. They were fighting a war.

UnCat deserves to be judged for her actions, some of which are simply wrong.

[sapphire_lion]

Have a nice night.

You too.