The Gods Eye Conspiracy - Part I

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

III. Southron Ambitions

As you all know, the mastermind of the Tully/Stark marriage was a maester, and a maester born of a Hightower woman, no less! It was extremely unusual for the Starks to marry out of the north, but Maester Warlys allegedly convinced Lord Rickard to seek allies in the south. AFFC implies that Warlys was being fed information and encouraged to implement the Southron strategy by his father, who was an archmaester. A good case was made here http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57647-southron-ambitions-who-is-maester-warlyss-father/ that this archmaester was Wargrave, who was the archmaester in charge of ravens for the Citadel. Among other things, we know that Wargrave had a close relationship with Maester Cressen, who advised the Baratheons (Wargrave, in his senility, was always calling people Cressen). So why would Wargrave, archmaester in charge of ravens for the Citadel and lover of a Hightower, want to encourage the Starks to turn south? Even if Wargrave wasn’t involved, why would ANY maester want this? The author of the linked post above asked “Was Wargrave using his son Warlys to direct Rickard Stark into forming a faction against the Targaryens? Wargarve, with his ultimate access to the ravens and their messages, could have been mobilizing other maesters, such as Cressen, towards building a Stark-Baratheon-Tully-Arryn alliance against the Targaryens.”

As you might have guessed, my answer to these questions is “HELL YES!” Someone was building an alliance that would weaken the Targaryens (Westeros’ foremost representatives of fire). Moreover, this meddling would facilitate marriage plans with the Baratheons (the Cressen/Wargrave connection) and lead to the birth of the current generation of Starks, including Brynden’s successor. Could Bloodraven have foreseen the birth of Bran being the result of a Stark/Tully (half-Whent) pairing? Sure. GRRM exposed us to this sort of thing when he wrote about the prophecies of Wood Witch, who in all likelihood is the Ghost of High Heart (who apparently hears things through the High Heart weirwood stumps), and may even be a Child of the Forest.

So why the hell would Brynden seek to weaken the Targaryens when he was a Targaryen himself? The answer to this is that Brynden is first and foremost a greenseer, and he has clear ties to ravens, weirwoods, and the Old Gods through his Blackwood blood. If my theory is correct (or even slightly on the mark), Brynden isn’t a targ loyalist as much as he’s an advocate for balancing ice and fire. In likelihood, he also foresaw the coming storm and may have determined that he needed Bran, Jon, and Danny to combat the bring peace and balance to Westeros. At the same time, the dominance of fire in Westeros needed to end (Danny likely won’t have any children, so this goal remains quite feasible).

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

IV. Ice and Fire

Let me return to symbolism in coats of arms for a minute. Back when I wrote about the Lothston/Whent coat of arms connection, you may have wondered why I never discussed House Strong’s coat of arms. There are two reasons. First, their coat of arms isn’t discussed in cannon sources. Second, to the extent that their coat of arms has any important meaning, I think that the meaning is quite different than the Bat motif but also quite related to the overall conspiracy. House Strong’s coat of arms consists of three bars: red (ice), blue (fire), and green (balance and the greenseers). The coat of arms itself doesn’t prove anything, but it’s a good starting point for the next part of this post. For the purposes of this post, I’m going to assume that people generally accept that the Targaryens and Danny in particular are linked to blood and fire; the Starks are linked to ice; and the Jon is the song of ice and fire, so to speak. I’m going to also assume that we all agree that Bran, Jon, and Danny will probably play a large role in the upcoming War for the Dawn, part II. I also think that Arya (ice -- more Starklike in appearance and demeanor than Bran) will play a major role.

For various reasons, I’ve come to the belief that the forces of ice and fire generally balance one another out in the world of ASOIF. If one becomes to strong, the imbalance results in disaster (The Doom of Valyria, Summerhall). In the Dance of the Dragons, we saw a chain of events that led to the destruction of most of the dragons, which are the closest thing that ASOIF has to elemental representatives of fire. I argued that maesters, the Hightowers, and the Strongs intentionally put this chain of events into motion. In Robert’s Rebellion and during the time of Southron Ambitions, the dragonlords were further weakened, and three figures essential to balancing ice and fire were born. What role did my alleged God’s Eye Conspiracy play in these births?

As noted above, Bran and Arya were conceived by the union of the Starks and a descendent of House Whent. That union was facilitated by Maester Walys, who GRRM has clearly linked to House Hightower and implicitly linked to Citadel’s Master of Ravenry, who also had ties to Maester Cressen. Can I prove that the plan to marry Catelyn to the heir of Winterfell was initiated by the Weirnet/Ravennet? No, but the connections are all there, and as the Woods Witch’s prophecies illustrate, whatever force is speaking through the wiernet (including the stumps at High Heart) has certain notions about pairing up key persons in Westeros. The Woods Witch prophecy also ties into Danny’s birth, as she was the product of Aerys and Rhaella. Where did the woods witch get the idea to marry Aerys and Rhaella?

“he has her own ways of knowing things, that one. The weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps” -- Thoros of Mry

The Woods Witch prophecy also ties into the birth of Jon through Rhaegar. Jon’s birth, of course, also would have been impossible but for the Tourney at Harrenhal, and representatives of both House Hightower and Harrenhal appear to have been deeply involved whatever happened between Lyanna and Rhaeggar. So what about Ser Arthur Dayne? I have to confess that I have no clear theory on how House Dayne plays into all of this. The Daynes don’t figure into DoD or much of anything else in recent Westerosi history. The only clues we have about their possible role are: (1) Ashara became pregnant at the Tourney at Harrenhal, (2) their coat of arms and Dawn evoke the War for Dawn and the PTWP prophecy, and (3) they have Valyrian-esque physical traits, although Ashara actually mixes firelike traits (violet eyes) and icelike traits (dark hair, ala Stark). It’s possible that the Daynes are the descendants of the Last Hero, who may have been that generation’s song of ice and fire. It’s also possible that the Daynes are uniquely capable of breeding Targ imposters (crackpot within a crackpot: Aegon could be a Dayne that the Gods Eye conspiracy plans to install upon the Westerosi throne in lieu of a real Targaryen).

Summary of the key evidence/arguments thus far:

• The actions of Lyonel Hightower, the Strongs, and Maester Maellos leading up to the DoD were more consistent with a conspiracy to eliminate dragons and weaken the Targaryens than self-promotion. (see Part 1)
• The death of the vast majority of the dragons occurred during the DoD, and several of the most important dragons died directly above the God’s Eye. Other important dragon deaths were related to Addam Velaryon, who allegedly consulted with the green men on the Isle of Faces; Addam’s origins have been called into question. Was he really on the side of the blacks, or playing some other role? (see Part 1)
• Roberts Rebellion was also made possible by the meddling of a certain faction of the Citadel linked to the Hightowers, and the Hightowers again had a high-ranking representative at the court prior to this major civil war.
• Harrenhal played a key role in Robert’s Rebellion, and indeed, the Tourney at Harrenhal was the most important catalyst for this war.
• Harrenhal has been revolving door of houses that often mysteriously find themselves at in the forefront of Westerosi politics. There is also an unusual continuity at Harrenhal between the houses. Is someone other than the nominal Lords of Harrenhal in charge of Harrenhal? Harrenhal’s proximity to the Isle of Faces and its unusual weirwood surely have some significance.
• Representatives from both House Hightower and Harrenhal played central roles at the Tower of Joy.
• The pairing of Aerys and Rhaella almost certainly relates to the Weirnet; the Woods Witch (assuming that she’s the Ghost of High Heart) allegedly speaks directly to the Weirwoods.
• Evidence suggests that the pairing of Catelyn and the Starks relates to the Ravennet/Weirnet through a maester with ties to the Hightowers. This same maester, Maester Walys, created alliances that would ultimately make Robert’s Rebellion possible. Another maester, Maester Cressen, also has ties to the Citadel’s leading expert on ravenry. Cressen likely played a key role in the Baratheon’s actions in Robert’s Rebellion.
• Bran, the successor to Brynden, was also born of Southron ambitions, and he has Whent blood. Brynden is the best candidate for the current leader of the Gods Eye conspiracy. Is it a coincidence that Bloodraven’s successor was born of a union facilitated by maesters who appear to be linked to both ravenry and the Hightowers?
  

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Indeed continue because I don't fully understand what you are saying about "God's Eye Conspiracy" You have laid out a lot of facts and interpretations but you haven't submitted condensed statement of your theory. I assume your theory is that the CotF at the God's Eye are controlling the events of Westeros, additionally you haven't really touched on the Curse of Harrenhal which I want to hear more about.

Please continue and also lay out your theory in a single sentence the present the rest of your argument.

If I had to condense the theory into one sentence, it would be (from my original post):

"The Isle of Faces is the nexus of a massive conspiracy that (1) led to the near extinction of dragons; (2) weakened and diluted Targaryen blood; and (3) facilitated the births of Jon Snow, Danaerys Targaryen, and Bran Stark." As CJ stated, I'm proposing that this conspiracy was put into effect by various agents. Those agents appear to include certain members of the Citadel, the Hightowers, and the residents of Harrenhal.

[J. Stargaryen]

Ned also remembers that Oswell said a few things before the fight at the Tower of Joy. In response to Ned’s comment that he “looked for you on the Trident,” Ser Gerold said “We were not there,” and Ser Oswell said “Woe to the Usurper if we had been.” I hate to read too much into this, but don’t you think it’s odd that they weren’t at the trident, particularly if Ser Oswell seriously believes that they could have turned the tide against Robert? Yes, Rhaegar likely ordered them to stay at the ToJ, but these three KG’s aren’t Rhaegar’s to command. Their job is to protect Arys, and it’s hard to imagine Aerys sending his finest warrior out into a random tower in the Dornish Marches. The conversation between Ned and these three continues, as they explain that they also weren’t protecting Aerys at King’s Landing (what?!?), or the Queen and her children (again, what?!?). I realize that some people on these forums have concluded that Jon was legitimatized somehow and is the rightful heir, but even if all of that were true, he could not possibly have been the first in line when these three KG decided to head south instead of protecting the royal family. At best, they were protecting the third in line when their King was hundreds of miles away. Oswell Whent, Arthur Dayne, and Hightower were up to something suspicious. But what?

No. They weren't at the Trident because they were given a different task. Dayne was Rhaegar's sworn shield and I think Whent was assigned to him too.

Jon wasn't legitimized. Most likely Rhaegar took Lyanna as his second wife, so Jon would have been born legitimate. Though protecting the king is the primary duty of the KG, it only takes one of them to fulfill that vow.

The second interesting thing about House Whent is the Tourney at Harrenhal. The Tourney is loaded with significance that I can’t even begin to cover in any reasonably brief post. Look here for a complete factual analysis: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91804-everything-we-know-about-tourney-of-harrenhal/. The facts that are most important to this thread are (1) Rhaegar saw Lyanna and became smitten with her; (2) Rhaegar won the tourney, which is unusual, particularly because he defeated Dayne and Selmy; and (3) the Knight of the Laughing tree knocked out several day 2 champions and avenged Howland Reed.

Not at all. Rhaegar had already bested Dayne during a tourney at Storm's End.

I would argue that someone behind the scenes foresaw the events at Harrenhal and may have facilitated them. First, we know through Meera that the Crannogmen are directly connected with the Green Men and sought counsel with them prior to Harrenhal. They were up to something, and that something almost certainly relates in one way or another to the Knight of the Laughing tree, who conspicuously carries a shield displaying a weirwood tree. Second, there was no clear reason for GRRM to specifically mention that Oswell and his brother conferred about the Tourney if the Tourney was really just about the Lord Whent throwing a party to honor his daughter and show off his wealth (why would Oswell care about such things as a KG?). No, someone gave Lyanna an opportunity to make an impression on Rhaeggar and may have even armed her (like many people, I think the case for Lyanna as Knight of the Laughing Tree is strong). And this opportunity came shortly after Maesters had convinced Rhaeggar that Elia could not bear anymore children, and after Elia had been bedridden for half a year (i.e., Rhaeggar would have been primed to look for another mate at this point). Furthermore, the path to victory for Rhaeggar was a bit fortuitous. He defeated opponents that ordinarily would have bested him (Dayne, Selmy), some of the combatants were defeated by a mystery knight who left the tourney, and all of the home team (the numerous Whents) were defeated quite early.

The conventional wisdom is that Ser Oswell spoke to his brother on behalf of Rhaegar.

Incorrect. Aegon was born after the HH tourney.

Again, Rhaegar had already defeated Ser Arthur in a previous tourney. While defeating Ser Barristan should probably be considered a mild upset, Rhaegar's known tourney record is stellar. IIRC, his only documented loss was to Selmy in the finals of the Storm's End tourney. So he was arguably the 2nd best tourney jouster of his time, behind only Ser Barristan.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Good points, Tristifer.

With regards to Elia, I suppose that doesn't change much. Lyanna would have been kidnapped after Rhaegar received the news from the Maesters, so the news would have played a role in his decision to act.

Regarding Rhaegar's victory at Harrenhal, I have some vague recollection of someone (in the text) commenting that the victory was unusual. I agree that this doesn't seem quite right now that you mention his other victories.

Is there anything definitive about Whent's motives in speaking to his brother? I'm not aware of any text explaining the decision.

Regarding the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, even if Jon is legitimate (no evidence of that, really), he would not have been the King's heir. He would have been the son of the heir. Neither Aerys nor the heir were being protected by 3 of the Kingsguard, including the strongest swordsman in Westeros (Dayne) and the extremely competent White Bull. Three is way too many for the third in line, again, assuming that he was in line at all. Also, it is extremely odd that all three explicitly stated that that if they were with Aerys, they were confident Aerys wouldn't have died, and that if they'd been with Rhaegar, then Rhaegar wouldn't have died. If they really believed that their protection of Aerys and Rhaegar was so essential, what the heck were they doing protecting #3? Aerys certainly never ordered them to do so. Rhaegar's orders only go so far; he wasn't the king.

[J. Stargaryen]

Good points, Tristifer.

With regards to Elia, I suppose that doesn't change much. Lyanna would have been kidnapped after Rhaegar received the news from the Maesters, so the news would have played a role in his decision to act.

Regarding Rhaegar's victory at Harrenhal, I have some vague recollection of someone (in the text) commenting that the victory was unusual. I agree that this doesn't seem quite right now that you mention his other victories.

Is there anything definitive about Whent's motives in speaking to his brother? I'm not aware of any text explaining the decision.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

- ADwD, The Kingbreaker (Barristan III)

Regarding the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, even if Jon is legitimate (no evidence of that, really), he would not have been the King's heir. He would have been the son of the heir. Neither Aerys nor the heir were being protected by 3 of the Kingsguard, including the strongest swordsman in Westeros (Dayne) and the extremely competent White Bull. Three is way too many for the third in line, again, assuming that he was in line at all. Also, it is extremely odd that all three explicitly stated that that if they were with Aerys, they were confident Aerys wouldn't have died, and that if they'd been with Rhaegar, then Rhaegar wouldn't have died. If they really believed that their protection of Aerys and Rhaegar was so essential, what the heck were they doing protecting #3? Aerys certainly never ordered them to do so. Rhaegar's orders only go so far; he wasn't the king.

There is lots of evidence.

People see that Lyanna had three KG assigned to her and argue she was being given too high of a priority, but that's not the issue. The Red Keep has high walls, plus soldiers and City Watch to defend it. Otoh, Lyanna was pregnant and residing in an abandoned tower. One which most definitely could not have withstood any kind of siege. And there was no army or City Watch to protect her either. Rhaegar needed people he could trust, hence the KG. Not only do they vow to protect and obey, but also to keep secrets.

They were upholding their vows to obey, and when Ned arrived, to protect the king.

True, but he outranked Hightower.

[three-eyed monkey]

This is a very well presented argument and one of the best theories I've read on these boards in some time. There;s a lot to get my head around here so I can't say I'm sold just yet but I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

There are a lot of sub-plots within your theory that really piqued my interest. Firstly, the link between Robert Strong, Qyburn, the book Roose burned, and the Strongs of Harrenhal. Ben Blackthumb is a very interesting character in this respect.

Another thing that I've often thought about is the whole strand from Bloodraven, Greenseer, Isle of Faces, Howland Reed, KotLT, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Howland Reed again at ToJ, and Jon. Your theory would suggest Rhaegar was a target of this conspiracy, but I always felt he was part of it, considering his obsession with prophecy and his connection to the Daynes, whom I agree descend from the Last Hero. I wonder if he had visited the Isle of Faces during one of his rambles, because if he did then it brings Bloodraven into play as a source of influence. It's also curious how the "kidnapping of Lyanna" resembles freefolk tradition, and possibly that of the First Men, with whom the children made the pact. That makes me wonder what changes Rhaegar planned on making after the Trident. Was it as simple as replacing the King? There's a lot of dots here that still need connecting but I just think that Hightower, Whent, and Dayne were more into Rhaegar's song of ice and fire than people think they were.

Like a lot of readers I believe the Citadel are heavily engaged in world-building, to put it mildly. From that angle your theory makes a lot of sense, but there could be other explanations as to what the maesters are at, as detailed in various threads about citadel conspiracy.

I'm looking forward to seeing where this thread goes.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Is there a lot of evidence? I'm rather new here, so I'd appreciate anything you could throw my way about Jon's legitimacy.

As far as I know, people believe that he's legitimate because it would be so uncharacteristic of the KG to protect an illegitimate child with no claim to the throne. This doesn't strike me as inconsistent with anything I've said. Is there more?

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

This is a very well presented argument and one of the best theories I've read on these boards in some time. There;s a lot to get my head around here so I can't say I'm sold just yet but I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

There are a lot of sub-plots within your theory that really piqued my interest. Firstly, the link between Robert Strong, Qyburn, the book Roose burned, and the Strongs of Harrenhal. Ben Blackthumb is a very interesting character in this respect.

Another thing that I've often thought about is the whole strand from Bloodraven, Greenseer, Isle of Faces, Howland Reed, KotLT, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Howland Reed again at ToJ, and Jon. Your theory would suggest Rhaegar was a target of this conspiracy, but I always felt he was part of it, considering his obsession with prophecy and his connection to the Daynes, whom I agree descend from the Last Hero. I wonder if he had visited the Isle of Faces during one of his rambles, because if he did then it brings Bloodraven into play as a source of influence. It's also curious how the "kidnapping of Lyanna" resembles freefolk tradition, and possibly that of the First Men, with whom the children made the pact. That makes me wonder what changes Rhaegar planned on making after the Trident. Was it as simple as replacing the King? There's a lot of dots here that still need connecting but I just think that Hightower, Whent, and Dayne were more into Rhaegar's song of ice and fire than people think they were.

Like a lot of readers I believe the Citadel are heavily engaged in world-building, to put it mildly. From that angle your theory makes a lot of sense, but there could be other explanations as to what the maesters are at, as detailed in various threads about citadel conspiracy.

I'm looking forward to seeing where this thread goes.

Good point about Rhaegar. Yes, he seemed quite steeped in prophecy and quite interested in playing his part. You could be right about that.

My Tourney section seems to need some revisions anyway (thanks again for you input, Tristifer). And if Rhaegar is in on the conspiracy, my disagreements with Tristifer about the ToJ would be moot (Rhaegar would be ordering the three KG to do something consistent with their own goals).

[J. Stargaryen]

Is there a lot of evidence? I'm rather new here, so I'd appreciate anything you could throw my way about Jon's legitimacy.

As far as I know, people believe that he's legitimate because it would be so uncharacteristic of the KG to protect an illegitimate child with no claim to the throne. This doesn't strike me as inconsistent with anything I've said. Is there more?

Yes, lots. :)

I guess the best way to learn is to ask questions in the pinned R+L=J threads.

[three-eyed monkey]

And if Rhaegar is in on the conspiracy, my disagreements with Tristifer about the ToJ would be moot (Rhaegar would be ordering the three KG to do something consistent with their own goals).

I don't want to turn this into a KG vows thread, there's enough of them already, and J. Stargaryen (a.k.a. Tristifer) has a very solid argument about the vows, which I can accept completely, but my own view on the subject is that there was something more going on with the 3 KG, an ice and fire driver as well as their widely accepted game of thrones driver. I thought Hightower might have been the more reluctant of the three in this regard but your theory shines a new light on him for me.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

Mitbert,

Great job, thanks for putting this together. It's pretty awesome.

I buy most of it. I think most people would agree: Citadel and Hightowets have a major role that is not explained, the mysterious nature of Harrenhall is something and the fact that their lords carry so much power so quickly, and that the Starks and Targs are clearly special.

My questions would be

Marwyn is definitely a player and is into some dark stuff like necromancy and sorcery, do u think he is in line with the Citadel and their actions?

The red god has connections to fire, but to me they are not related to the Targs, like I said Targs and Starks are special, do they in any way relate to your overall balance theory?

[J. Stargaryen]

IV. Ice and Fire

Let me return to symbolism in coats of arms for a minute. Back when I wrote about the Lothston/Whent coat of arms connection, you may have wondered why I never discussed House Strong’s coat of arms. There are two reasons. First, their coat of arms isn’t discussed in cannon sources. Second, to the extent that their coat of arms has any important meaning, I think that the meaning is quite different than the Bat motif but also quite related to the overall conspiracy. House Strong’s coat of arms consists of three bars: red (ice), blue (fire), and green (balance and the greenseers). The coat of arms itself doesn’t prove anything, but it’s a good starting point for the next part of this post. For the purposes of this post, I’m going to assume that people generally accept that the Targaryens and Danny in particular are linked to blood and fire; the Starks are linked to ice; and the Jon is the song of ice and fire, so to speak. I’m going to also assume that we all agree that Bran, Jon, and Danny will probably play a large role in the upcoming War for the Dawn, part II. I also think that Arya (ice -- more Starklike in appearance and demeanor than Bran) will play a major role.

The Trident river has three forks: Red, Blue, and Green. In my Emeralds thread I wrote a bit about the significance of each fork in the story.

[DNDM]

I totally agree with the conspiracy part. I've got differents interpretations of quite a few things, taught.

Peraphs it's time for me to translate the "ReOpen TP&TQ, or, The dying of the Dragons" theory that I posted in the french forum a while ago...

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Snark of Winterfell,

Marwyn's existence makes clear that the Citadel isn't a monolith. There appears to be factions within it that are working towards different goals. This is one reason why I wouldn't contend that the Citadel as a whole has any particular agenda, but I do think that a powerful faction is working with the Hightowers and the greenseers, I honestly cannot tell where Marwyn falls, which is why I haven't taken a position on him.

J. Stargaryen,

That was a great read. Thanks.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

July 2012 Asshai.com interview:

"Q: Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?

A: Well... keep reading."

Clearly something will be revealed in the future about Dayne's motives that shed light on his tolerance of Aerys' behavior. I doubt that he was just following orders. If it were that simple, we wouldn't need to "keep reading." I'd argue that the same is true for Hightower and Whent, although questions about them were never asked.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I'm not gonna get into the whole theory i wouldnt know where to start but i thought id chime in on Harrenhal.

Ben Blackthumb could have served the Lothstons as a child it is very possible

We know lady danelle was around helping bloodraven in 212 AC so to present day everything took place in a span of 88 years

Illifer the Penniless who is 60 could very well have been a teenager when his greatgrandfather helped take out the Lothstons who knows

Most likely the land was given to a bastards kid born a trueborn who took say his name of Whentley to Whent, he was probably an older man with kids at the time this is why they have a similar arms. As of now there are only 2 Whent women alive that we know of.

House Strong, i wonder if their coat of arms or family is derived from the red, green and blue fork areas which is very close to Harrenhal

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Good points, Tristifer.

With regards to Elia, I suppose that doesn't change much. Lyanna would have been kidnapped after Rhaegar received the news from the Maesters, so the news would have played a role in his decision to act.

Regarding Rhaegar's victory at Harrenhal, I have some vague recollection of someone (in the text) commenting that the victory was unusual. I agree that this doesn't seem quite right now that you mention his other victories.

Is there anything definitive about Whent's motives in speaking to his brother? I'm not aware of any text explaining the decision.

Regarding the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, even if Jon is legitimate (no evidence of that, really), he would not have been the King's heir. He would have been the son of the heir. Neither Aerys nor the heir were being protected by 3 of the Kingsguard, including the strongest swordsman in Westeros (Dayne) and the extremely competent White Bull. Three is way too many for the third in line, again, assuming that he was in line at all. Also, it is extremely odd that all three explicitly stated that that if they were with Aerys, they were confident Aerys wouldn't have died, and that if they'd been with Rhaegar, then Rhaegar wouldn't have died. If they really believed that their protection of Aerys and Rhaegar was so essential, what the heck were they doing protecting #3? Aerys certainly never ordered them to do so. Rhaegar's orders only go so far; he wasn't the king.

They maybe take Rhaegar as there king by this point cause the real king is nuts, Aerys didnt need 3 KG to protect him he had castle walls while Jon was in a little tower.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

July 2012 Asshai.com interview:

"Q: Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?

A: Well... keep reading."

Clearly something will be revealed in the future about Dayne's motives that shed light on his tolerance of Aerys' behavior. I doubt that he was just following orders. If it were that simple, we wouldn't need to "keep reading." I'd argue that the same is true for Hightower and Whent, although questions about them were never asked.

Aerys raped Rhaegars mom and abused her

i believe that he raped Ashara Dayne too and this was the last straw for the KG.

Rhaegar may have been given a heads up by a woods witch that Jamie would slay the KING maybe he believes he did this protecting Aegon but doesnt know what the Mountain will do

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

I'm not gonna get into the whole theory i wouldnt know where to start but i thought id chime in on Harrenhal.

Ben Blackthumb could have served the Lothstons as a child it is very possible

We know lady danelle was around helping bloodraven in 212 AC so to present day everything took place in a span of 88 years

Illifer the Penniless who is 60 could very well have been a teenager when his greatgrandfather helped take out the Lothstons who knows

Most likely the land was given to a bastards kid born a trueborn who took say his name of Whentley to Whent, he was probably an older man with kids at the time this is why they have a similar arms. As of now there are only 2 Whent women alive that we know of.

House Strong, i wonder if their coat of arms or family is derived from the red, green and blue fork areas which is very close to Harrenhal

If the first Lord Whent was a Lothston bastard who inherited Harrenhal, you'd think that he would have been legitimized or just taken the name Lothston rather than making up the name Whent. Illifer's story would also be kind of silly if his family didn't really exterminate the male bloodline. Furthermore, there really isn't anything linking the blood of the Whents to the Lothstons.

Regarding the timeline, even if Ben served as a child, Ben would be extremely old. Also, could Illifer really have been a teenager when his great great grandfather was killing people? Let's say Great, Great, Gramps was 60, his son (Great Gramps) was 40, his son's son (Gramps) was 20, his son's son's son (Dad) was.... It doesn't work. Even if Great Great Gramps was kicking Lothston butt at 80, it wouldn't work.

Regarding the House Strong coat or arms, I agree. As noted in the original post, my discussion of their coat of arms was really a jumping point. It's semi-canon, so I don't assign too much significance to it.

They maybe take Rhaegar as there king by this point cause the real king is nuts, Aerys didnt need 3 KG to protect him he had castle walls while Jon was in a little tower.

But, again, Jon was not the heir to anything when the 3 KG headed south. He wasn't the current king, and he wasn't the first in line after the current king, or the second in line! Rhaegar was the first in line, followed by Aegon (born in 282, while Jon was born in 283). And if Rhaegar died before Aerys, as would ultimately be the case, Viserys would be the rightful heir. At no point during or around the events occuring at the ToJ was Jon the rightful heir, even assuming he was legitimate (my understanding is that this is a very popular theory).

I assume that Jon is extremely important, but I can't help but think that he's less important as an heir to the throne than as the personification of the Song of Ice and Fire. My instinct is the 3 KG, and likely Rhaegar, recognized that Jon's importance transcended his status as #4 (at best) to the throne.

Aerys raped Rhaegars mom and abused her

i believe that he raped Ashara Dayne too and this was the last straw for the KG.

Rhaegar may have been given a heads up by a woods witch that Jamie would slay the KING maybe he believes he did this protecting Aegon but doesnt know what the Mountain will do

Not sure what you mean by all of this. Do you mean that this explains why the KG were hanging out with #4 instead of #1-3?

I brought up the GRRM quote because it suggests that Dayne's motives will become clear in later books. In other words, there is more to Dayne (and presumably all of the 3 KG) than meets the eye.