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J. Stargaryen

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  1. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    There's one, but he's a Snow. For now. ETA: I did mention the crypts.
  2. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    I don't know what you're not getting, so I can't help you there. As for Dany fulfilling the prophecy, I would agree. She almost completely literally woke dragons from stone. It was early and so literal that I am suspicious of it being true, or rather, the only truth. We've heard about waking dragons from stone and waking the stone dragon. I think it's possible the former applies to Dany and the latter to Jon. There's some analysis first posted by @Fire Eater , I believe, about how the Stark children have connections to stone. Maybe even further than that, the hiding of their identities has something to do with stone. Sansa goes by Alayne Stone, Arya is in Braavos and hides Needle—the last bit of her true identity—in stone steps, Bran is hiding in caves and Rickon is in Skaagos, which means "stone" in the old tongue. There's also even Lady Stoneheart, though she's not a Stark child, so either she doesn't count or the connection has to do with the Stark family rather than just the children. This isn't that wild either since we already know the Starks have a strong connection to stone via the crypts. The Stark lords even turn to stone when they die. If one were inclined to believe this analysis and link it to "waking the stone dragon," imagining a Targaryen hiding among the Starks is a very natural and logical conclusion. Stone + hidden identities + Stark children/family + dragon.
  3. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    I wouldn't just look for one "Lightbringer" in the story. But check out these quotes, re: the LB origin story and R+L=J. “It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.” - ACoK, Davos I The other wight, the one-handed thing that had once been a ranger named Jafer Flowers, had also been destroyed, cut near to pieces by a dozen swords… but not before it had slain Ser Jaremy Rykker and four other men. Ser Jaremy had finished the job of hacking its head off, yet had died all the same when the headless corpse pulled his own dagger from its sheath and buried it in his bowels. Strength and courage did not avail much against foemen who would not fall because they were already dead; even arms and armor offered small protection. - AGoT, Jon VIII Maybe GRRM just likes to pair "strength and courage." Or, maybe there is something to be gleaned here. Strength and courage come from the female, Nissa Nissa. But that's not what it takes to defeat wights. It takes fire. So if strength and courage come from the female, the mother, then the fire would come from the male, the father. And I don't think it would be out of place to find a reference to LB in a paragraph about battling wights. This would be as it applies to Jon. Things could be different for Dany. And I don't think the evidence in favor of one necessarily excludes the other. You'll notice later on in AGoT, in a very interesting place, we get another "strength and courage" pairing. “This is bloodmagic,” he said. “It is forbidden.” “I am khaleesi, and I say it is not forbidden. In Vaes Dothrak, Khal Drogo slew a stallion and I ate his heart, to give our son strength and courage. This is the same. The same.” - AGoT, Daenerys VIII
  4. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    I wouldn't say that the roses got used against her, but that they led to her death. She played the part of Nissa Nissa in the Lightbringer recipe. Whether the sacrifice was intentional or not, she still died.
  5. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    Are you saying the point isn't that Lyanna only started loving the scent of winter roses after Rhaegar crowned her, but that she didn't stop once he did? I think that would make sense. And a lot of that would fit neatly with RLJ. I think if we're extrapolating this information onto Lyanna, the Poison Kisses giving Arya a rash seems like it could parallel Rhaegar's poison kiss giving Lyanna a fever. It's fairly common for a fever to accompany a rash, after all. They're something of a pair. In retrospect, I've always wondered if this line might be a sort of call forward if you will, to Dany's vision of a blue rose growing out of the Wall, if you read stagnant as meaning still. Since ice is water that doesn't move. Not only that but stagnant can also indicate that the water had gone bad from inaction. Loosely speaking you could describe the Watch this way too, I suppose. They were low on numbers even before the battle at the Fist of the First Men and the mutiny at Craster's. Afterwards, it's all they can do to hold the Wall. Thank R'hllor for Stannis. Truth be told I'm not very confident that any of this is correct or intended, but maybe there's something there, so I just wanted to mention it.
  6. J. Stargaryen

    Wow, I never noticed that v.16

    How did I do that? Nice!
  7. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    Yes, it's a valid inference, but is it correct? The question is certainly worth asking, which was my point. Further, while GRRM may have intended for the audience to understand at that point and time that Lyanna always loved the scent of winter roses, that may not be the ultimate truth. What the text says is that she loved the scent of winter roses. It says so right after we learn that Rhaegar gave her winter roses. I'm suspicious of that coincidence.
  8. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    Not quite true. Ned thinks: Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. - AGoT, Eddard XV Not only nothing about "always," but this comes up immediately after Ned recalls the crowning at HH. In other words, Ned thinks that Lyanna loved the scent of winter roses after he thinks about Rhaegar crowning her.
  9. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    But the question is did she love them before Rhaegar gave them to her or because he did?
  10. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    I'm not sure if it necessarily matters whether they're the same roses Rhaegar gave her at HH, though they might well be. I think what's important is that there are roses connected to her birthing bed. Since Rhaegar is the only person we know of in the story who gave her roses, that information points directly at Rhaegar as the father of Lyanna's child.
  11. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    I like that idea, too. I believe it was @tze who suggested that ghost grass might actually be snow. As in: “The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.” - AGoT, Daenerys III FWIW, the next line is: “That thought gave Dany the shivers.” Which would seem to support that the interpretation that "ghost grass" = snow, since snow usually means cold, which certainly can cause one to shiver. That's a fun chapter, BTW, with lots of potential symbolism and foreshadowing present.
  12. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    What is "smoke and salt"? Is it literally just smoke and salt? If so, how literal? If not, how figurative? I was rereading the Ned's ToJ dream a year or two back and noticed something. That certain colors are rather prominent. There's a mention of blue at the end, and a few mentions of red; the Red Mountains of Dorne, Lord Dustin's destrier, and the color of blood streaked in the sky. But also white and grey. Notice the descriptions of the three KG. Something white is mentioned; with Arthur it's Dawn, with Oswell his white and black helm, and the moniker Ser Gerold is well known by, the White Bull. These descriptions follow the opening paragraph noting "the three kingsguard in their white cloaks." Then there is the way Ned's companions are described in this dream; "grey wraiths." As we know the grey wraiths do battle with the white cloaks. Which means they're paired in the way that any combatants are. White and grey. And as any ASoIaF fan will immediately realize those are the Stark colors. But, and perhaps coincidentally, they're also the colors of smoke and salt, which are linked to the birth, or rebirth, of Azor Ahai. We know that the PtwP is meant to be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. And that Azor Ahai, purportedly the same person as the PtwP, is meant to be born, or reborn, amidst smoke and salt. Well, it had occurred to me that if "smoke and salt" aren't completely literal, then maybe the prophecies are talking about the colors of smoke and salt, grey and white; the Stark colors. So, we have a hero descended from Targaryens born amidst the Stark colors. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but maybe not. And I think it pairs nicely with the black and red colors—Targaryen colors—from Ned's memories of Lyanna's deathbed where the room smells of "blood and roses." With the blood being red, and the roses described as dead and black.
  13. They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. - Rhaegar, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. 

    He had lost both ears and a finger to frostbite, and he dressed all in black, the same as a brother of the Night’s Watch, except that his furs were ragged and greasy. - Gared, brother of the NW.

    “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.” - Robb to Jon, who will be a brother of the NW.

    Then he saw it, a shadow in the shadows, sliding toward the inner door that led to Mormont’s sleeping cell, a man-shape all in black, cloaked and hooded… but beneath the hood, its eyes shone with an icy blue radiance… - Dead Othor, a former brother of the NW.

    Get it? Jon is a Targaryen prince "armored" all in black.

  14. Okay, but you claim this scenario ended with Mance crowning Lyanna, the lady he loved. Except now you're admitting that Rhaegar (might have?) crowned her. Which then becomes a problem for any not-Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon theories. Because, as is made obvious in the text, there's a link between blue roses and Stark maidens having children. Ned recalls that the room Lyanna died in smells of blood and roses. Later evidence strongly indicates the blood is from childbirth, and there's only one person in the story who gives Lyanna Stark roses, Prince Rhaegar. So that means the text links Lyanna Stark giving birth to one specific man, Rhaegar Targaryen. It follows quite directly that since Rhaegar gave Lyanna the roses, the phrase "blood and roses" indicates that Lyanna Stark gave birth to Rhaegar Targaryen's child.
  15. This isn't a matter of opinion. You claimed that Rhaegar must've known he would lose to Selmy since he'd lost to him before. But that claim no longer makes sense since Rhaegar had also defeated Selmy previously. It makes just as much sense to claim that Rhaegar knew he would win since he'd done so before. You also seem to conflate sword fighting with tourney jousting. Another mistake. Mance being a good swordsman, on foot no less, does not tell us anything about his jousting skills. There's simply nothing in the text indicating Mance was even an average tourney jouster. Whereas Rhaegar's jousting record indicates he was among the finest jousters in the 7K, if not the finest himself. Perhaps he could be thought of as first among equals. Selmy and Dayne being the other "equals." Actually, I happen to agree with you that your theory doesn't need a fresh look so much as a fresh start. When I pointed out Rhaegar's pre-HH jousting record you suggested he could have been cheating in those tourneys too, as a way to dismiss his excellent jousting record. Because that record is problematic for your theory, as it erases any motive for Rhaegar to use a double in the finals against Selmy. Put simply, if Rhaegar is more or less as good a jouster as Selmy, which is exactly what the record suggests, then there's no reason for Rhaegar to use a double in his place, and your theory falls apart.
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