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J. Stargaryen

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  1. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-significance-of-blue-winter-roses-in-connection-with-Lyanna-Stark/answer/Rose-G-Stone This seems awfully familiar.
  2. J. Stargaryen

    Fire and Blood Vol 1, the second round

    I'm going to agree with @Lord Varys that this isn't the place to debate Jon Snow's real name. That said, I will address @Rhaenys_Targaryen below. First, a couple of things. I only wanted to point out that having three Daeneryses and seven Aegons would make perfect sense to me. I don't think that it matters at all that there are no monarchs named Daenerys, but that there are five officially numbered Aegons, as it currently stands. I don't think they both have to be officially numbered for that point to be relevant. In the same way that I don't believe the hypothetical parallels of the promised second Dance have to perfectly mirror the first. Nor do I believe that the roses Lyanna is clutching as she dies must be from the rose crown given to her by Rhaegar for that connection to be obvious. It's the name Rhaegar had chosen for his son and heir. Which is exactly what Lyanna's child was following the Sack. It could certainly be more than that or even something else entirely. But if you're asking about her motivation for naming her child Aegon, that's an answer that fits the facts of the story. It looks to me like a solve for X type of clue. We have Aemon telling Egg and Jon to kill the boy and the let the man be born. Aemon basically tells Egg that he needs to grow up and be an Aegon. Therefore, Egg = boy, Aegon = man/ruler. So, solve for X, Rhaenys. If Jon Snow = boy then, X = man/ruler. I think I already addressed the rest of your response above. About the Dance briefly, an even-numbered Aegon and female claimant war over the throne. Both die and an odd-numbered Aegon is crowned. I don't see why it has to be any more specific than that, but that's just me. I'd be willing to discuss further via PM or in a different thread.
  3. J. Stargaryen

    Fire and Blood Vol 1, the second round

    The issue here is that people end up asking themselves some variation of a trick question. Why would Rhaegar name both of his sons Aegon? I don't think he did. I think Lyanna named her son after the Trident and the Sack of KL. And, I think she definitely knew about those events since Ned was with her when she died. Although she might have already known before he arrived. This line of thinking is really the key to understanding how to overcome the otherwise awkward obstacle of two Aegons. I never thought to consider this until 2014, when someone posted this quote from AGoT, Jon IV: “You can call him Lord Snow,” Pyp said as he came up to join them. “You don’t want to know what his mother calls him.” This reads to me like a clue that his mother had called him something. If it was Lyanna who had named him, giving the timing, it definitely opens up the possibility she called her son Aegon. Aegon is the Targaryen name. It's really the Targaryen version of Brandon Stark. That reason alone makes it a very strong candidate to be Jon's real name. The most important male Targaryen in the story ought to be named what—Aemon, Jaehaerys, Viserys, Aenys, or Daemon? No, of course not. Aegon is the obvious choice. My guess is, were it not for the aforementioned issue of R+E=Aegon, people would take for granted that Jon's name is Aegon nearly as much as they do his parentage. Let's take a look back at the HotU, from ACoK, Daenerys IV: “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” We know that Dany is seeing Rhaegar, Elia, and their newborn son Aegon here. But, the scene also allows us to draw certain informative conclusions. Rhaegar thinks there is no better name for a king, so it's what he chooses to name his son and heir. Also, he thinks his son and heir, named Aegon, is destined to be the PtwP. Further, that this son and heir, named Aegon, has a song that Rhaegar calls the song of ice and fire. One of the more common mistakes or misconceptions that I've seen in my time here is that this scene actually depicts Rhaegar, Lyanna and their newborn son. The reasons for this are obvious enough. Jon is a far better candidate than R+E=Aegon for the PtwP and the song of ice and fire. Maybe the scene is telling us the name of the PtwP and the song of ice and fire. If the name of the PtwP and SoIaF is Aegon, and Jon Snow is the PtwP and SoIaF, then Jon Snow's real name is Aegon. It's a pretty reasonable conclusion. Then, Rhaegar appears to look up and see Dany and say, "There must be one more. The Dragon has three heads." Rhaegar has two of his three heads already, and he looks right at Daenerys while saying there needs to be one more. From Rhaegar's perspective, he's seeing, or envisioning, a girl as his third dragon head. I think it's one of the stronger hints that Rhaegar did, in fact, expect his third child to be a girl. Which provides a strong motive for Rhaegar to have only picked out a girl's name for Lyanna's child. By the time Lyanna gives birth to a boy, Rhaegar, Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys are all dead. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, this means that her child, her boy, was now Rhaegar's son and heir, so she named him Aegon, as per Rhaegar's intentions. What better name for a king? --- "A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” – A Dance with Dragons, Jon II Here's another nice hint. Maester Aemon is giving the same advice to Jon that he gave to his brother Egg. Egg and Jon Snow are boys. They must become men—Aegons—to rule. The fact that GRRM promised us a second Dance is arguably another hint since the original had two Aegons. In fact, two Aegons who both became kings. So, if that pattern follows we could expect Young Griff to be crowned Aegon VI, and then Jon eventually as Aegon VII. Seven and three have been such thematically important numbers throughout the series, and there's really starting to emerge the possibility that the story will have seven Aegons. It makes perfects sense to me that he'd want three Daeneryses and seven Aegons.
  4. J. Stargaryen

    Fire and Blood Vol 1, the second round

    The hypothetical seventh Aegon? Jon Snow, of course. Are you saying the number seven isn't significant in the story? I'm confused.
  5. J. Stargaryen

    FIRE AND BLOOD Volume 1

    Yes, that is also possible. I happen to think GRRM intends to crown Young Griff as Aegon VI, though. It would better mirror the original Dance that way, but it doesn't necessarily mean he plans to include that detail this time around. But, all things considered, it's my best guess for now that he does. Seven and three feature pretty prominently in the series, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least that he'd attach them in a fairly significant or prominent way to the two main characters. Of course, he's already done it with Dany and three.
  6. J. Stargaryen

    FIRE AND BLOOD Volume 1

    Two more Aegons seems less daunting to me than a second Dance of the Dragons(/sixth Blackfyre Rebellion) plus a zombie apocalypse. Maybe he won't, though. Who knows. But the math checks out. Aegon V was the last king of that name, so you need two more to get Aegon VII. If only there were someone who was set up to crown himself Aegon VI and then die in a civil war. Hmm.
  7. J. Stargaryen

    FIRE AND BLOOD Volume 1

    Maybe GRRM wants to have three Daeneryses and seven (king) Aegons. I've long thought seven Aegons was possible, so three Daeneryses makes perfect sense to me. Especially given how thematic that number is to her story.
  8. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    There's one, but he's a Snow. For now. ETA: I did mention the crypts.
  9. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    I don't know what you're not getting, so I can't help you there. As for Dany fulfilling the prophecy, I would agree. She almost completely literally woke dragons from stone. It was early and so literal that I am suspicious of it being true, or rather, the only truth. We've heard about waking dragons from stone and waking the stone dragon. I think it's possible the former applies to Dany and the latter to Jon. There's some analysis first posted by @Fire Eater , I believe, about how the Stark children have connections to stone. Maybe even further than that, the hiding of their identities has something to do with stone. Sansa goes by Alayne Stone, Arya is in Braavos and hides Needle—the last bit of her true identity—in stone steps, Bran is hiding in caves and Rickon is in Skaagos, which means "stone" in the old tongue. There's also even Lady Stoneheart, though she's not a Stark child, so either she doesn't count or the connection has to do with the Stark family rather than just the children. This isn't that wild either since we already know the Starks have a strong connection to stone via the crypts. The Stark lords even turn to stone when they die. If one were inclined to believe this analysis and link it to "waking the stone dragon," imagining a Targaryen hiding among the Starks is a very natural and logical conclusion. Stone + hidden identities + Stark children/family + dragon.
  10. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    I wouldn't just look for one "Lightbringer" in the story. But check out these quotes, re: the LB origin story and R+L=J. “It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.” - ACoK, Davos I The other wight, the one-handed thing that had once been a ranger named Jafer Flowers, had also been destroyed, cut near to pieces by a dozen swords… but not before it had slain Ser Jaremy Rykker and four other men. Ser Jaremy had finished the job of hacking its head off, yet had died all the same when the headless corpse pulled his own dagger from its sheath and buried it in his bowels. Strength and courage did not avail much against foemen who would not fall because they were already dead; even arms and armor offered small protection. - AGoT, Jon VIII Maybe GRRM just likes to pair "strength and courage." Or, maybe there is something to be gleaned here. Strength and courage come from the female, Nissa Nissa. But that's not what it takes to defeat wights. It takes fire. So if strength and courage come from the female, the mother, then the fire would come from the male, the father. And I don't think it would be out of place to find a reference to LB in a paragraph about battling wights. This would be as it applies to Jon. Things could be different for Dany. And I don't think the evidence in favor of one necessarily excludes the other. You'll notice later on in AGoT, in a very interesting place, we get another "strength and courage" pairing. “This is bloodmagic,” he said. “It is forbidden.” “I am khaleesi, and I say it is not forbidden. In Vaes Dothrak, Khal Drogo slew a stallion and I ate his heart, to give our son strength and courage. This is the same. The same.” - AGoT, Daenerys VIII
  11. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    I wouldn't say that the roses got used against her, but that they led to her death. She played the part of Nissa Nissa in the Lightbringer recipe. Whether the sacrifice was intentional or not, she still died.
  12. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    Are you saying the point isn't that Lyanna only started loving the scent of winter roses after Rhaegar crowned her, but that she didn't stop once he did? I think that would make sense. And a lot of that would fit neatly with RLJ. I think if we're extrapolating this information onto Lyanna, the Poison Kisses giving Arya a rash seems like it could parallel Rhaegar's poison kiss giving Lyanna a fever. It's fairly common for a fever to accompany a rash, after all. They're something of a pair. In retrospect, I've always wondered if this line might be a sort of call forward if you will, to Dany's vision of a blue rose growing out of the Wall, if you read stagnant as meaning still. Since ice is water that doesn't move. Not only that but stagnant can also indicate that the water had gone bad from inaction. Loosely speaking you could describe the Watch this way too, I suppose. They were low on numbers even before the battle at the Fist of the First Men and the mutiny at Craster's. Afterwards, it's all they can do to hold the Wall. Thank R'hllor for Stannis. Truth be told I'm not very confident that any of this is correct or intended, but maybe there's something there, so I just wanted to mention it.
  13. J. Stargaryen

    Wow, I never noticed that v.16

    How did I do that? Nice!
  14. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    Yes, it's a valid inference, but is it correct? The question is certainly worth asking, which was my point. Further, while GRRM may have intended for the audience to understand at that point and time that Lyanna always loved the scent of winter roses, that may not be the ultimate truth. What the text says is that she loved the scent of winter roses. It says so right after we learn that Rhaegar gave her winter roses. I'm suspicious of that coincidence.
  15. J. Stargaryen

    R+L=J v.165

    Not quite true. Ned thinks: Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. - AGoT, Eddard XV Not only nothing about "always," but this comes up immediately after Ned recalls the crowning at HH. In other words, Ned thinks that Lyanna loved the scent of winter roses after he thinks about Rhaegar crowning her.
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