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Rhaenys_Targaryen

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  1. @SFDanny, I'm sorry for my late response, but the first time I had written a response, it was accidentally deleted, and I did not have the time afterwards to sit down for it again I agree on the timing of the wedding and Rhaenys's conception. Without any evidence that a pregnancy did not last the full nine months, I think we should assume that they did indeed take nine months, and that, in addition to the six months of bedrest following Rhaenys's birth, does not allow for much room regarding the timing of the wedding, or Rhaenys's birth. Regarding Barristan escorting Cersei, you are absolutely right of course that he did so. I can't think of any other example, but of course, most Targaryen weddings are between siblings, which means often would place the bride-to-be already at court. The only non-Targaryen wedding that I can think of at the moment where the location of the bride was mentioned is the wedding of Aemon and Jocelyn Baratheon, but of course, she had arrived at court years before. There is one difference between Cersei's situation and Elia's situation that I do think is worth mentioning. Cersei was going to marry the King, Elia the son of a king, who is at odds with that king already before the wedding. Would Aerys allow for his Lord Commander (and possibly other knights of his Kingsguard?) to escort Elia, either the entire way, or part of the way? Would Elia, with her fragile health, travel to King's Landing over land, or by ship? With a betrothal in 279 AC and a wedding in early 280 AC, it would seem that she would have traveled to King's Landing towards the end of fall, or even already in winter (which had lasted for nearly two years by the Harrenhal tourney in 281 AC). Why would it be unusual for Arthur to be given the position? By sending a Kingsguard man who was also Rhaegar's man, two things could happen: Either Arthur would succeed, for which Aerys could take some of the credit as the man who had appointed Arthur, or Arthur would fail, which would have a negative impact on Arthur's reputation (at least in Aerys's eyes, most likely). The methods that Arthur used are indeed the far opposite of Aerys's tactics following Duskendale, but regardless, Aerys was the one who had agreed to everything, even if he was not the one who thought of it. However, if Arthur would have traveled back and forth (or send a messenger) as long as you seem to argue, it would require Rhaegar to have been at court for a long period of time, if he had indeed played some part in this. Yet, we know that he moved to Dragonstone after his wedding, and had already had a bad relationship with his father before that. Why would Aerys listen to Rhaegar, and when would Rhaegar have the time to try and convince his father, if he spend most of that year, if not all, on Dragonstone? I agree that it is unlikely that Hightower and Elia would have been traveling through the Kingswood together before a betrothal took place. Yet regarding Jaime's quote, what he is arguing is how young he was when he accomplished these feats. He mentions that he won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, and rode with Dayne at fifteen. Had he started in the campaign at a younger age, would he not have mentioned that? After all, had he also won a tourney mêlée at a younger age, he would have mentioned that younger age, not the elder one. Perhaps he was mentioning only fifteen because he wanted to connect it to his age at receiving his knighthood, but to me it does not read that way.
  2. It is true that most girls will flower for the first time at the age of 12 or 13. As Cassandra had not yet flowered in 129 AC, we cannot say that she had not yet turned 12/13 years of age, as "most" does not mean "all". But, we could perhaps use it, by taking the 12 or 13 years of age as a 'rough minimum'. The other limit is clearer. As we know that Floris was born in 118 AC, and that Cassandra was the eldest and Maris was the second born daughter, we can say that Cassandra had been born at least by 116 AC, if not earlier, as she would have been at least 16 years old in 132 AC. Not yet having reached the age of menarche in 129 AC would make her "roughly" ~12/13 or younger in 129 AC, which would place her birth in ~117 AC/116 AC. As we know that 117 AC is not a possibility (due to Floris' age), we could take her not having flowered yet in 129 AC as an indication that she had been born in 116 AC or several years before. Otherwise, the only max limit we have is that in 133 AC, Cassandra was not yet 30. Opinions would be appreciated
  3. It could be possible that the attack took place as Elia was traveling to King's Landing for her wedding, although there are a few thoughts that come up with this scenario. Would Aerys, already paranoid and fearful that Tywin was planning to assassinate him, agree to part from any one of his Kingsguard, specifically the Lord Commander, for a large amount of time? Would Hightower, if the attack had taken place a year or more before the Brotherhood was defeated, not have eventually taken over command of the force against them? It is true that we do not know when Jaime joined the force against the outlaws, but we can conclude that Sumner Crakehall and his squires participated in the campaign at least for a few months, if we consider all that happened to Merrett. Some time passed after the end of the campaign and the tourney as well, at least slightly more than a month. . "I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield. It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around. So spare me your envy. It was the gods who neglected to give you a cock, not me." In this quote by Jaime, he tells Brienne about his accomplishments. If he had joined the force against the Brotherhood at the age of fourteen, would that not have been the age he would have mentioned here? In addition, if the encounter Elia and Hightower had with the Brotherhood had occurred as she was traveling to King's Landing for her wedding, that would mean that the campaign against the Brotherhood had lasted more than a year. The Kingswood is quite close to King's Landing, so while it would have taken Arthur Dayne some time to convince the smallfolk to trust him and bring their issues to the King, it is not the case that they were so far away that this distance would significantly increase the length of the campaign. It is possible that the encounter occurred before Elia's marriage to Rhaegar, of course, but IMO it might be more likely to have occurred during her marriage. I had really hoped that the Kingswood Brotherhood would have been mentioned in
  4. I haven't been able to read the entire thread yet, so I apologize if I address things already explained further later in the thread, but as I was reading the earlier pages, I saw a few things I wanted to respond to. The timing for Elia's pregnancy is very limited due to the things we know for a fact. She was married in 280 AC, had a daughter that same year, was bedridden for 6 months thereafter, leaving only some ~9 months until the end of 282 AC, near which time Aegon was born. With the description given of the tourney of Harrenhal, during the False Spring of 2 months, it does heavily implies that the tourney was in the second half of the year, and likely a bit closer to the end of that half than to the start of it. However, fact is that we do not know how much time passed before between 'winter starts to return' and the end of the year, when winter was definitely back at KL. But I would think that, if the characters would indeed have wished for Elia to travel as little as possible towards the end of her pregnancy, it could be that she had been somewhere slightly past half-way through her pregnancy, towards the end of the 2nd term, when the tourney took place. Additionally, perhaps she had not needed to travel from Dragonstone to Harrenhal, but perhaps she and Rhaegar had already been at KL by the time the tourney was about to take place. We hear that a comet was seen over KL the night of Aegon's conception. If Aegon had been conceived on Dragonstone, why would Maester Aemon refer to a comet visible from KL (as that comet would most likely also have been visible from Dragonstone, the other most likely place for Rhaegar and Elia to have been)? We know that Rhaegar had eventually brought Rhaenys to KL to present her at court. Possibly, they stayed for a while, with Elia either traveling with them, or (depending on whether or not she had still been bedridden at the time) followed them later? An interesting thing about Elia's whereabouts is her encounter with the Kingswood Brotherhood. She was being escorted by the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard when the Brotherhood attacked. Afterwards, the Kingsguard, under leadership of Arthur Dayne, gathered an army and battled the brotherhood, accompanied by Jaime Lannister. The timing of when the brotherhood was defeated is a bit unclear, except of course that it took place more than a month before the tourney at Harrenhal, as a month passed between Jaime leaving KL and him receiving a letter at CR, informing him he was appointed to the KG. The fact that Dayne led the force against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and not Hightower, could suggest that Hightower's injury had not yet healed, placing this shortly after the attack on Elia. By the time the force rode out against the Brotherhood, Jaime had already turned 15, placing it in 281 AC. If I am right that Elia and Rhaegar were in KL when the comet appeared, it could additionally explain how (and when) Elia was being attacked by the Brotherhood, and could in turn suggest that during her second pregnancy, Elia was not (as much) on Dragonstone as she had been during the first year of her marriage. An interesting observation! We do not know when in the year the wedding was to be held. All we know is that Brandon had met up with Rickard and was on his way back to Riverrun for his wedding when Lyanna disappeared, and Lyanna disappeared after she came face to face with Rhaegar in the riverlands. We also know that Rhaegar departed Dragonstone in early 282 AC, but how much time passed (or which places he all visited) before he came "ultimately" returned to the riverlands, where he "fell upon" Lyanna. Especially the use of "ultimately" suggests that it was not a matter of mere days/weeks. Indeed. Depending on how quickly winter returned, and of course how long it had already been ongoing by the time the Blackwater froze, and on when during the two month period of False Spring the tourney took place (beginning, middle, end?), there is some wiggle room to put some three months or so between the tourney and the end of the year/Aegon's birth. Perhaps even more, but not much more, I think.
  5. @Ran, it has been a busy week, so my reply is a bit late, but thank you so much for the new information! Edit: oops, I see now that I posted this in the wrong thread!
  6. I've searched for a post somewhere that might state which marriage occurred first, but so far I have found nothing. Perhaps @Ran knows which of Willam Stark's marriages took place first? The one to Melantha Blackwood, or the one to Lyanne Glover? Hmm.. I'd think so. Perhaps, as we do not know how long he lingered, we can say he died at the maximum age of ~40, leaving some room for error? Yes. If there's nothing that can definitely place her death earlier than 299 AC, that year would indeed be the max. We know that Benjen was her youngest child, and that Benjen was born in 267 AC or later, meaning that Lyarra died in 267 AC or after. In that sense, we have a range of death for Lyarra. It's just a rather large one.
  7. The only thing we know from the novels is that Robert's bastards in KL had the gold cloaks sent after them. All of Robert's other bastards (as far as we know about them), were apparently far enough out of Cersei's reach to be safe from her.
  8. I said often, not always. It is acceptable to wed and bed a girl who has flowered. That we know. We also know that most highborn girls have their first menstrual period at the age of twelve or thirteen, according to Sansa's Septa. But, we also know, that, to prevent their brides from dying at a very young age in childbirth, many men will wait until their bride is older, so she will survive childbirth.
  9. Absolutely, the calculation of Gilliane Glover only demonstrates that she could not have been born any later than 96 AC. But there's nothing "approximately" about it. She would have been at least twelve years old at the birth of her eldest son, who was born in 108 AC. But she could have been much older than that at Cregan's birth - 16, 20, 24 etc. There's no way to tell. The only thing we can say with quite a bit of certainty is that she could not have been younger than 12 at the birth of Cregan, as Martin has stated that most highborn girls have their first flowering (i.e. start of their fertile period) at the age of "twelve or thirteen". In addition, she must have lived at least until 109 AC, in order to give birth to her second child (as her eldest was born in 108 AC). However, this does not eliminate the possibility that she lived until the age of sixty, seventy, or even beyond. It's just that we cannot say anything about that, other than that she must have lived long enough to give birth to all of her children. Important to note is this: In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood. Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted. Even if a girl is married at an earlier age, often, the husband will wait until his bride is a bit older than her minimal fertile age. The younger the mother, the higher the rates in death in childbed. Sansa's case, however, is a bit more difficult. A marriage that has not yet been consummated is easier to set aside, and that is the one thing that Tywin wishes to prevent. In order to make the marriage as legally binding that no one can end it (without killing Tyrion), Tyrion and Sansa have to consummate their marriage. But even Tywin shows that it would not be out of the ordinary for Tyrion not to sleep with Sansa again until she is a few years older. "Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband."
  10. The Campaign Guide is Green Ronin's, IIRC, which means they did not use GRRM as a source for their material according to the linked post. So not canon.
  11. On which page? Perhaps the wording requires some tweeking.. Eddard's entry in the app states too that the betrothal was Robert's idea, but that Eddard carried the proposal to Winterfell, where Rickard agreed to it. From the app: Of his siblings, Eddard loves his sister Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal.
  12. It hasn't been on Martin's website. But I think people wrote a transcript from the reading. And there are quite detailed notes, of course.
  13. O my god, I had not noticed there was a link in your post.... That would indeed have been a lot easier.. Mondays.... O_o
  14. Indeed. It took me a while, but I found the post of Ran that @The Wondering Wolf is referring to:
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