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SFDanny

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  1. Always good to read your thoughts on any subject @Bael's Bastard and it looks like we whole heartedly agree on this part. We may still disagree on whether or not Tywin had reason to hide his order from Tyrion, if he gave it. I think the fact he has continued to hide his order to Jaime concerning Tysha would be a reason for him to hide a order to rape Elia from Tyrion. His "... even you will not accuse me of giving that command" is a dead giveaway that Tywin does not want Tyrion to figure out he had given such an order concerning Tysha. Implicit in his response is the idea that he would never ever give such an order, but we know he did just that in order to destroy Tyrion's marriage. Still not proof that Lord Lannister did give such an explicit command to Ser Gregor. I like your idea he may not have been quite so clear about details in his order to Clegane.
  2. SFDanny

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    With Tyrion I think it's fear and shame. He despises Tyrion for being a dwarf and for killing his mother. The latter is true even if your theory is correct. The last thing he wants is for Tyrion to bring another dwarf into the world and have the child bear the name Lannister. Which is, I believe, why Tywin just can't seem to find a match for Tyrion. But he can't let Tyrion beget little bastards via the whores he sleeps with or liaisons with common women. There can't be any dwarf Joy Hills in Casterly Rock either. I'm pretty sure, if he thought it wouldn't get out, he'd have castrated Tyrion long ago. For all of his children there is the question of his Lordly rights to make the match that comes first. He tries his hardest to do so with both Cersei and Jaime. His aim is political matches that benefit House Lannister and bring it honor. Rhaegar with Cersei, and Jaime with Lysa. Love really isn't taken into the question. It is all about Tywin's goals for his house. Not that he is unusual in that regard. The interesting thing here is with Jaime's and Cersei's attempted matches we see Tywin swing from one political side of Westeros to the other. But both are political matches that could have benefited Tywin considerably. I do have to disagree with you here a bit. I see Tywin's own marriage as a political one. That is not to say he didn't love his wife, but that there is a considerable benefit to political marriages between cousins. It consolidates power. In the aftermath of open rebellion in the Westerlands against Lannister power, Tywin needs no political rivals from his cousins. With Kevan and Dorna I think we need to learn more, but the marriage to vassal houses is the norm in Westeros. Its importance is to ensure the oaths of fealty are respected. Edit: while I believe everything in the first paragraph is true, one shouldn't ignore the obvious. Tywin IS willing to have Tyrion marry Sansa Stark and have him fill Winterfell with his children. The obvious political benefits here override Tywin's hatred of Tyrion and his possible dwarf children.
  3. SFDanny

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    He believes his big brother's lie. Tyrion idolizes Jaime, and not just because he is everything he is not, but because Jaime actually loves him and cares for him. If it was just Tywin telling the lie he creates, it is likely Tyrion doesn't believe him and he sees the lie for what is is. But Jaime wouldn't lie about paying Tysha to pretend to be his loving wife - or so he thinks. When Jaime confesses the first thing he does, after hitting Jaime and ending their relationship is to go after Tywin. There is a lot that happens in between as well, but killing Tywin is done after the truth of the lie is exposed. Patricide is a step not easily taken until the extent of Tywin's lying and abuse is laid bare. The simple answer is before the confession, Tyrion believes he participated in a degrading and humiliating sexual orgy a lying whore willingly participates in for money that Tywin stages to show him the truth of his illusion of love. After the confession, he knows the real truth of Tywin's orchestrated gang rape of his wife. Why does he wait until then? Jaime's confession turns his world upside down. After the confession he doesn't care that he will die if caught. He doesn't care that he has lost his position and wealth. All he cares about are two things. Killing his father in revenge for everything he has done, and finding Tysha.
  4. To get back to the OP's question, have we settled on Tywin at least being capable of giving the order to rape and kill Elia along with his admitted order to kill her children? I'm not sure how Martin could answer this question for us given Tywin's death and the deaths of Ser Gregor and Ser Amory. Are we agreed Tywin was capable, but we can't be sure if he did give the order, or this was just the action of Ser Gregor?
  5. Let's see. We have pretty much proof that Tysha was what she appeared to be. That being a fourteen year old virgin crofter's daughter. That is to say not exactly skilled in manipulating nobility to part with their gold and fall in love with her. Yet we are to assume she plays Tyrion falsely because what? It is natural for young impoverished women to lie about their feelings to entice men into the trap of marriage? This is, I must say, a fairly dark view to take of women, even fictional ones. No, I think I'll stick with the meager evidence we have that Tysha was what she seemed, including loving Tyrion before Tywin destroyed her marriage through the most brutal and cruel method available to him.
  6. SFDanny

    R+L=J v.166

    You should feel free to challenge anything in the opening thread, but please note that I'm not the author of this little part of it. It is the custom of everyone here to start a new R+L=J thread with somethings our little community thinks might be helpful to new participants, including links to the many threads that preceded this one. I don't endorse everything that everyone has contributed to that effort, even though I appreciate it. Let me just say your response calls out the author of the SSM, but it doesn't say why you do so. Were you there in 2000 when Martin is reported to have said what he did? If not perhaps you might want to ask @Ran or one of the moderators from the time on why they posted this as part of the SSM catalogue. I don't have a clue why you would question this report. If you have something other than it is only "the word a fan" saying so, it might be worth while telling us. Otherwise, I'm really not sure of the value in making such a comments.
  7. To be fair, Sansa is totally false to Tyrion. She never claims to love him, but she leaves him alone with no help to face a charge of regicide. The supportive wife he wanted was not there for him when he needed someone. Not that Sansa didn't have great reasons, in fact the best of all possible reasons, for doing so, but the timing of her abandonment of Tyrion is bound to make him feel a tiny bit betrayed. Just think, if she had stayed she could have exposed the Tyrells and still ended up scheduled for execution right alongside Tyrion. Which is one of those great reasons she left. Still not the "dutiful wife" Tyrion had told himself she was, and Sansa pretended to be. He was betrayed, and in his better moments I think Tyrion would agree it was a betrayal for damn good reasons. Of course the irony here is thick. Tyrion is thinking of the love of Tysha, who, if she is still alive, has got to feel like Tyrion is guilty of the ultimate betrayal*, and then complaining that Sansa was false to him. It would be at least some tiny form of justice if Tyrion had to be in the same room with both of his wives and try to explain to them his actions. Would either forgive him? I'm betting on Sansa before Tysha ever considers it. In our poor patricidal exile's defense, he thinks he is just about to literally go down with the ship. Contemplating your betrayer's reasons and weighing the pros and cons of why they betrayed you are not at the top of one's list as you're about to drown. But back to whether or not Tysha really loved Tyrion. I've never claimed his evidence is ironclad. Only that in the face of no evidence that she didn't love him it is all we have to go on. Maybe Arya will pop on over to see the Sailor's wife and we will find out from a more reliable perspective as they talk over their childhood memories debating which was more traumatized. My money is on a consensus that Martin is a bastard to his characters and loves putting them through hell. *btw almost certainly one of Tywin's objectives
  8. Well, while it's true that Tyrion thinks Tysha was in love with him at thirteen, it is also true he still thinks she was in the story as late as during the storm on the Selaesori Qhoran when he speaks to Penny about Sansa. Evidence from both the thirteen year old Tyrion's experience with Tysha and the adult Tyrion's view of the past. However shaky you think the evidence is, it is better than pure fan speculation.
  9. I disagree. It is evidence that Tyrion felt a connection from Tysha. Surely, it can be faked, but we have no evidence she did so. Tyrion's evidence over no evidence otherwise. I'll take Tyrion's.
  10. Entirely your right to do so, but let me leave you with this quote of Maester Aemon.
  11. Did Tysha love Tyrion? Our evidence is limited to Tyrion's beliefs prior to being told the lie Tywin constructed for Jaime to tell him. Tyrion believed so, and believed he loved her as well. Our evidence against this is nothing but speculation on our part. Yes, it's possible Tysha really was in it for Tyrion's money, but we have no evidence it is so. Perhaps we will learn if Lanna is her daughter.
  12. SFDanny

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." - Anatole France. Context is key to understanding. The context that pushes the starving homeless to sleep under bridges, to beg, and to steal is far different to those that push the rich to make the choices they make. We can judge the thirteen year old Tyrion's choice to unknowingly to participate in what is in reality the rape of his wife by the context we are given by the author or we can set up a contextless choice and say he could have just said "no." Yes, just as the rich often choose to not steal bread or sleep under bridges, so too we can compare Tyrion's choice to not stand up to his father when Tywin wants him to go last and give Tysha her his gold piece devoid of any context. After all we all are responsible for the choices we make, right? Wrong. Evaluating choices without understanding the context makes such evaluations meaningless. In this case we have to evaluate Tyrion's choice in the context of evidence which shows the history of the events, who orchestrated those events, the understanding Tyrion had during the events, the power structure of Westerosi society and how that is reflected between father and son, and the history of cruelty, sadism, and brutality we know from Tywin in general and in particular how that is reflected in his relationship with his youngest son. Without such an evaluation of the evidence we get garbage. But, unfortunately you, @Bernie Mac take this simple truth one step further. In your case, you would have us use post hoc quotes which only show the guilt Tyrion feels after he learns what he believed was true, was, in fact, an elaborate lie enacted by his father and told to him by his brother. In short, you use evidence from the books to create a false context. You would have us judge Tyrion's choice by this false context. It doesn't work, no matter how many times you use the post hoc quotes. This is a point I made in response to the quotes you used the first time you posted them here. The criticism is still valid. What I know is I posted the most relevant quotes to this question here and here. The evidence in these quotes are vital to understanding the answer we can reach. These are indeed, as I said, quotes straight out of the books. What you think you know, I can't answer for. Only you can do that. Once again then, the fact Tyrion had shows a certain amount of fear on Tyrion's part about what his father's reaction to his wedding would be. He keeps it secret from Lord Tywin based on the fear of his reaction. Clearly Tyrion's fear is justified because when Lord Tywin finds out, he destroys his marriage. An example of the nature of the father/son relationship and the role Tywin's power over Tyrion's life plays in it. Your argument here sets up a false either/or choice. Is there fear on Tyrion's part about his father? Or does Tyrion show no fear by defying his father. The answer is both fear and defiance at times, mixed with many other things like almost constant humiliation and degradation. Yes, you have, and you've quoted the books correctly. But your post hoc quotes don't show what you say they do. The problem is in your analysis. I have. For instance, from the quote from Jaime's confession of the lie he told Tyrion about Tysha being a whore and the marriage fake, we learn that Tywin is the source of the lie and that he commands Jaime to tell it. We also have Tyrion's account of the rape (although at the time he doesn't believe it is that) which establishes that it is Tywin who is responsible for bringing Tysha into the barracks and giving her to the guardsmen for their sexual use. These are men who have sworn their services to the Lord of Casterly Rock. Disobedience can mean death. We know from this account that Tywin is almost certainly the source of the silver piece each guardsmen gives Tysha, and absolutely certain confirmation that he is the source of Tyrion's gold coin. We know from this account that it Tywin who sits Tyrion down in the barracks corner to watch the sexual attack. We also know it is Tywin who "had" Tyrion go last. The text tells us who orchestrates this all. The context is one in which Tywin has all the power of the High Lord of Casterly Rock, and Tyrion is a thirteen year old boy who is totally dependent on his father's whims. Without understanding that context the discussion about whether or not Tyrion has the ability to defy his father is absurd. He has done so it the past, and he does so again in the future, but everything Tywin has done to destroy the marriage is designed to force Tyrion to accept Tywin's lie. Yes, Tyrion has the ability to utter the word "no." But to think he will or should have done so rips the question out of the context of the books. Here again you draw the wrong conclusion. That Tyrion does defy his father later in life does not mean he has "no issue" in doing so. Each incident has to be looked at as its own case. But you want a quote showing the nature of their relationship. Let me leave you with a very long one that is critical for any understanding. Not that this is the only one needed, but it is, perhaps, the best at laying out the "issues" and power relationship between father and son.
  13. SFDanny

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    The "picture" I'm painting is taken straight from the books and looking at this question in the context of all we know from the books. As to the idea that if Tyrion was so fearful he would have not married Tysha in the first place, it has already been answered by @Lyanna<3Rhaegar in her post #28 above. That you choose to look at this outside the context of what the books tell us is, of course, up to you. The text tells us what Tywin did to make Tyrion participate. It also tells us about the nature of the father, and the father-son relationship. One should not, in my opinion, ignore the evidence the author gives us and construct a abstract choice for Tyrion to make. It assumes a thirteen year old in Tyrion's position and under his circumstances can just say "no." It assumes that contrary to all the evidence that shows that Tywin manufactured the rape in part to manipulate Tyrion into participation as the culmination of his "sharp lesson" that any other choice by Tyrion would be allowed. Context matters. Context is key to understanding.
  14. SFDanny

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    I absolutely agree with the bolded part. Which really is the main point of Tywin's lie. But the moment Tywin creates the lie, everything he does is designed to psychologically manipulate Tyrion through every step he takes so he doesn't believe the truth and won't refuse. Could Tyrion have uttered the word "no"? Absolutely. But that action is forestalled by everything Tywin does. Let me disagree here slightly. I don't think fear of Tywin is the main factor in Tyrion's "choice" to do as Tywin tells him and go last in Tysha's rape. That fear is always there because Tyrion knows his father and knows what the dangers are if he crosses him. But what Tywin successfully does to Tyrion is, I think, not so much respond out of fear, but to respond out of the humiliation and degradation he feels by the actions Tywin takes. It is all designed to, among other things, to rub Tyrion's nose in the supposed fact he isn't worthy or capable of being loved or desired. Tyrion has to accept the "fact" Tysha didn't love him. That she was a whore who was paid to fake her love for him and her desire for him. When Tyrion participates in what really was a gang rape, he accepts not only the lie Tywin has told him about Tysha, but what Tywin tells him about himself. It is the same message Tywin has always told his youngest son. He is unworthy of love. Tyrion is accepting his father's judgement not only about Tysha, but about him.
  15. SFDanny

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    Let me add one more thing I think is important in understanding Tywin's actions. There is another very important reason Tywin orders the gang rape of Tysha other than convincing Tyrion that Tysha is a whore. The rape by a barracks full of guardsmen cast doubt on the parentage of any child conceived during Tysha and Tyrion's marriage. Who can say who really is the father of such a child? Tywin prevents any claim to being a child of a Lannister if Tysha comes back with a child. Which could be important in the story if the Lanna in Braavos is Tyrion's child.
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