Ran

What'd you think?

Book spoiler discussion of the show goes here, for those who want to discuss the episode in relation to the books, and with reference to spoilers from them. This topic should open automatically around the start of airing.

“The topic of the thread is discussing things you disliked about the episode. It is not a place to throw insults at one another or to act as if he normal rules of the forum do not apply. Discussion of why people disliked something is permitted, but remember the topic at hand -- this is not a debate thread, it's a discussion thread specifically about episode details or events that posters disliked.”

They don't own the show, per se, but they own an interest in the property that they developed and then took to HBO. I don't think that's unusual at all. This is why they negotiated with HBO over how many seasons, because HBO couldn't just tell them "Make five more".

David and Dan are the ones who brought the show to HBO, not vice versa. They and their production company are inextricably linked to the show. Short of HBO spending what would probably be tens of millions of dollars to buy their interest out entirely, there's no way D&D are going to back down on the idea that they completed the story to their satisfaction.

Nope.

Ian is a wonderful fellow, but he hears things from fans and he doesn't necessarily know what's true and what's just speculation. In this case, I can categorically say it's not true.

Ian's a lovely guy, but he gets told stuff by fans and doesn't necessarily know if things are true or not. In this case, I can categorically say it's not true.

What'd you think?

Book spoiler discussion of the show goes here, for those who want to discuss the episode in relation to the books, and with reference to spoilers from them. This topic should open automatically around the start of airing.

I believe that George came up with the whole Targaryen pretender idea when he stopped work and remapped out the series, so the mummer's dragon was something introduced into the HotU. But whether he had already written it and went back and added it in, or hadn't yet gotten to it, I don't know.This is all just my speculation, of course, haven't asked George directly as it feels like he won't want to discuss such things until the series is done. @Bael's Bastard My assumption was that Varys was wittingly doing it... but I also think it's possible he was manipulated into it, perhaps through magical means, and isn't quite aware of it. Illyrio, I'm more open to being manipulated by Varys in turn, but I don't know. Again, just speculation based on trying to figure out how George envisioned the original trilogy vs. how he envisioned it after mapping it out as six books. Seems to me Dany's story needed complications he hadn't imagined, and so he drew from history again. But if he didn't have a Targaryen pretender in mind, then something else was going on with Varys and Illyrio.

The House of the Undying, the Battle of the Blackwater, the death of Qhorin Halfhand and Jon "turning" his cloak, Catelyn confronting Jaime, Bran and co. escaping Winterfell, the deaths of Ser Rodrik Cassel and Maester Luwin and so many other northmen as Winterfell is left a sacked ruin, weasel soup -- all pretty memorable. I don't think it's weaker at all if you're looking at it purely from a "wow factor" perspective.The 2nd season definitely had issues with some of this. They didn't get Qarth at all. It was supposed to be a sojourn in a beguiling, exotic fairytale place that was a temptation and distraction for Daenerys, and instead they did... what they did, for whatever reason, while downgrading the House of the Undying into just a random labyrinth with little prophetic depth. The last Jon chapter basically didn't get adapted, with the beauty and weight of Qhorin's talking with Jon that last night before the end, instead just rushing it into an action beat. They futzed around with Winterfell and didn't bother with Reek/Ramsay (so I'm in agreement there). Catelyn basically did her talk with Jaime at the end of S1 and so it was all perfunctory in S2.

Deleted a bunch of posts for general lack of civility. Bans will follow if made necessary, so please, play nice.

Mmm. I think the Varys of AGoT was essentially a pawn of the Others who was working to manipulate the Seven Kingdoms into vulnerability so that humanity can be destroyed. His talk with Tyrion in ACoK of the magical ritual that accompanied his gelding seems to me like a remnant of a notion that has since seemingly come back to the fore with another character later in the novels. TWoW spoilers: The Varys of ACoK is simply working to manipulate the Seven Kingdoms to put his chosen king, the mummer's dragon, on the Iron Throne. Pardon me if I think the (entirely speculative) Varys of AGoT seems a lot more sinister!

Season 5's final episode was the final nail in the coffin for me, after increasing dissatisfaction over the season. I'm no "Stannis the Mannis" fanboy but I did think they wildly mishandled the character (Stephen Dillane saying he didn't understand his character's actions much of the time didn't help change my mind) and Dorne was an utter mess. It became too painful to watch, knowing that these choices were obviously considered good ones by D&D when they were obviously not. They didn't stick the landing for that episode or that season, and I suspected they wouldn't stick the landing for the series. So I stopped watching.