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The Ned's Little Girl

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About The Ned's Little Girl

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    With rings on her fingers and bells on her toes
  • Birthday August 20

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  1. I think Robert would have raced off to claim Lyanna as soon as he was able to do so if he had known where she was, but not because he was madly in love with her. He wasn't in love with her at all; he thought he owned her. I think his reaction to her disappearance had mostly to do with himself and little to do with her. He couldn't abide the thought of anyone else having access to his possession and he really couldn't abide the thought of what her disappearance might say about her view of him.
  2. I endorse all mentioned so far and will add: 1. Tyrion was the target at the Purple Wedding and the poison was in the pie.
  3. Understood, corbon. Exhaustion is everyone's natural state these days anyway! Don't over-extend yourself, it's not the most important thing in the world.
  4. 1) He's presenting himself as unwilling so Sansa won't think he's just a grasping Lannister who is continuing her family's destruction by annexing Winterfell on behalf of the Lannisters. He also has a strong tendency to cast himself as the victim. 2) It isn't 100% truthful for him to say he's reluctant because he both does and doesn't want to marry her. He correctly sees it for the act of war that it is and he's rightly disturbed by the age disparity. Yet, there are tangible rewards that he covets. His human heart is in conflict.
  5. Sure. Exactly what a novel series concerning the human heart in conflict with itself needs: scientific analysis. Should I be wearing a lab coat? Sarcasm aside, my "results" are different because my "basis" is different. It's like you're saying that you use flour and milk that results in pancakes, therefore if I use fruit and sugar that results in jam instead of pancakes, I "fail the examination". That's also why I stated right at the beginning that I wasn't offering my interpretation in opposition to yours but in addition to it. Looking at both the pancakes and the jam, as it were. Both are good and can go together well also! This is a misrepresentation of what I said. There were other words which followed the "not a lie" part which you seemingly overlooked and which have bearing on them. Here's the entire quote for you: Please take the bolded into account.
  6. I don't think it's a question of accuracy or flawed reasoning or of being wrong. My basis for interpreting Tyrion is skeptical, gives him less benefit of the doubt and not taking his words at face value without corroboration, as it were. Your basis is less skeptical, more benefit of the doubt, etc. The resulting analyses are going to be at variance with each other. That's fine. And below will be my last comment in this topic. 1) "Listen to yourself. It's not lying." Listen to yourself. I literally said the exact opposite of that. You even underlined the part where I said it's not lying ("there's no way I could characterize that as lying"). 2) The rest of it, where in the hell did that come from? You just made all that up! I "want"? I "demand"? I didn't say anything resembling that in any way, shape or form! Feel free to call it insane or despicable if I actually do say that, but unless or until I do, keep your insulting judgments to yourself.
  7. I obviously didn't express it clearly enough, but the point I began by making was that from the perception of the reader, Tyrion is not making an offer of Lancel as alternate bridegroom in good faith. Sansa, of course, has no way to be aware of this but the reader does, being privy to the previous Tyrion chapter wherein Lancel had already been rejected as unsuitable by Ser Kevan. Even if Sansa had made that choice, I don't believe Tywin would have allowed it therefore it was a false choice. Then it strikes me as odd that neither Tywin nor Kevan mention any other Lannister family member as a possible alternative, not a named possibility but also not an unnamed possibility. They don't even say, well if you won't do it and Lancel can't, then we'll find some other family member who will suffice even if we have to fling the net far and wide to find someone and by the way this needs to happen quickly as well. (Tywin: "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.") Agreed, the persuasion of Tyrion was the point. Tywin, with an assist from Kevan, made a significant effort to persuade Tyrion to agree to the marriage. Indeed, Tywin was a good deal more patient with Tyrion and his marriage objections than he was with Cersei's objections to a marriage for herself directly prior. So yes, that was the point of the conversation - for Tyrion. But for the reader, it's the essential background for understanding that it will be Tyrion only as Sansa's husband. Not Lancel, it was never going to happen and Tyrion's offer of him wasn't genuine. And there's another thing I just thought of about Tyrion not dealing with Sansa in good faith. It's when he says, "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did." So - technically - Tyrion is correct that he did not ask. He made objections, to be sure, but he was able to overcome them to the point where he agreed freely to marry her. So to then present himself as an unwilling or reluctant bridegroom - well, there's no way I could characterize that as lying but it's hardly absolutely truthful either.
  8. I hope my reply to Lyanna <3Rhaegar explains it well enough. Yes, that's why I didn't argue that she said it as a courtesy only. My point was that she said it as a courtesy also. Recall at the very beginning of my post when I explained that I think character's interactions have differing levels of meaning that are operating simultaneously. That's why I was careful to write things like, "Explicitly she said this, but implicitly there's also this interpretation of her words". You are right; assent is a better word than consent. I still abide by "assent with asterisk" though. I'm inclined to take the view that Sansa, by dint of being hopelessly well-trained in the behavior required of a noble lady, was simply unequipped to conceive that she had other choices or options. She's the rule-follower; she doesn't have the life experience (being only 12) to realize that the social rules that have governed her entire life are artificial constructs that she doesn't have to obey. As far as she knows, there is only one narrow path for her to follow and that is to submit herself fully to her lord and master. One cannot choose what one cannot conceive.
  9. No, that isn't what I meant. What I meant was more like what you said in your paragraph previous to this one, with the persuasion. They're manuevering him. They would be in a bit of a pickle after all, if Tyrion went ahead and outright refused to marry her. Sansa needs to be wedded and bedded (to forestall a possible annulment) in order for the Lannisters to claim the prize she represents. And it needs to be done soon; there is still a war going on and their fortunes could change rapidly. They need the deed to be done. Who would that back-up Lannister be, though? The other candidates they mention are unavailable: the twins and Tion are currently imprisoned prisoners of war while Lancel, despite being physically present, would not be able to make the marriage final by consummating it. From Tywin's point of view, it really has to be Tyrion. By my reading, the alternate bridegrooms are pretty clearly not meant by Kevan and Tywin to be taken seriously as candidates. Which is why Tyrion doesn't either. No, I'm not saying that. I don't think Tyrion was forced into it. I think Tyrion agreed to it. I think he grew to like the idea. I think he wanted to marry her and get her to fall in love with him and be lord of Winterfell.
  10. I'd like to offer a different interpretation of the Tyrion/Sansa wedding and wedding night, minefield though it is. I'm not doing so in opposition to corbon's analysis, but in addition to it. I think that character's interactions can have multiple levels which are operating simultaneously, especially when GRRM is the author. In ASOS, Sansa III, Tyrion says: I would posit that Tyrion is not saying this in 100% good faith here. He's clearly operating to his father's dictates ("My lord father felt it necessary"). But I think there is good reason to believe that Tyrion understands that the option of Lancel is a non-starter and won't happen no matter what Sansa says. For some background that illuminates Tyrion's pseudo-offer of Lancel, here's the background from Tyrion III: This discussion of possible other bridegrooms is a charade and Tyrion understands it to be a charade, a bit of byplay. Tywin makes it clearer still with his direct order which is the final sentence (in more ways than one!) of the chapter, shorn of any pretense: Sansa will be wed to Tyrion and nobody else, no matter what. So Tyrion could make an offer of Lancel instead of himself, knowing full well that it isn't a viable option. He has good reasons to make this pretend offer: it's face-saving for him, it eases his qualms about marrying so young a girl, he hopes she will think better of him for having done so. And it costs him nothing, since there's no chance that anyone other than himself will be wed to Sansa. The next thing concerns Sansa's consent. ASOS, Sansa III: First of all: "You are kind, my lord". One one level, yes, she is recognizing Tyrion's kindness. But it's also a standard courtesy which can be meaningless in its essence. How many times have all of us answered the question "how are you?" with "fine" even if we're not actually fine? So, explicitly she's acknowledging kindness but implicitly, she's also saying the correct, polite, socially-acceptable thing, as she as been so relentlessly taught all of her 12 years. Secondly, I would like to emphasize the nature of Sansa's acquiescense: "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. Defeated. She's simply recognizing the inevitable. She has no way out and she finally understands that. At this point, the societal rules governing her behavior take over completely and she has to abide by them. All of Sansa's other consents on the wedding night are of the same nature, I would argue. Explicitly she's consenting, but implicitly she's bowing to the inevitable. She's behaving in the way a girl of her social class and training is expected - required - to behave. She's a firm believer in her society's hierarchical structure (indeed, since she's only 12 she has neither the life experience nor the wherewithal to question or doubt such structures) in which marriage makes the husband and wife one person and the husband is that person. I think there is a pretty sizable gulf between "consent" and "bowing to the inevitable". I would call Sansa's consent "consent with an asterisk".
  11. Theon has suffered the most? Not poor Jeyne Poole? Theon proceeded along a series of steps, actions taken in which he always had a clear choice which was a better outcome than the one he chose. Even though each better outcome got worse and worse, he without fail chose the worst possible one. Please note I'm NOT saying that Theon deserved what happened to him. I'm saying that he consistently put himself in a position where a more and more disastrous outcome for him became more and more likely. But poor Jeyne Poole never did anything, except be alive and be in Littlefinger's orbit.
  12. Haven't read the chapter in a while, but do we know for sure that Margaery was actually drinking the wine, rather than putting the chalice up to her lips for the look of the thing? Or....... Perhaps Margaery? Olenna slipped the stone from Sansa's hairnet to Margaery, who dropped it into the chalice after taking a swig?
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