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Nagini's Neville

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  1. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    And that's why I like them both was always my opinion Ned was just a "Little Sansa" himself
  2. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    imo he could have only made her feel safe, if he was able to break her infatuation and also tell her, she wasn't to marry Joffrey anymore. So it would have been basically an impossible task. In post #301 I addressed, what Ned's reasons could have been for not following up with Sansa, when she said she didn't know. But we have to remember, that even after that Ned let her hang out with Joff at the feast after the tourney, where he was "lovely" to her again, only supervised by her Septa, who doesn't even make sure she gets home safely. So this whole time he doesn't give Sansa any signs, that he disapproves of joffrey. How should she grasp the magnitude of what Joffrey did, when she sees her father not being concerned about it. Then her father just suddenly tells her, Joffrey is "no Prince Aemon, you, must believe me." And that's it. He owed Sansa at least the talk he gave Arya about sticking together and also taking about why he doesn't want her to marry Joffrey anymore. It is her future after all and to wipe that away with just one sentence...Of course he can't tell her the whole truth, so he should have pointed the problems about Joffrey out to her. The question is however, if Ned would have even ended the engagement, if it wasn't for the incest. Imo he just took her obedience for granted, while he always had to take care of Arya, because she was always acting out. He basically didn't worry to much about Sansa. Imo that's also why he asked her to speak out before the King. He just expected her to obey like always. And didn't consider the position he was putting her in. Imo he just didn't think to much about what was going on with her in general. Not in an ill-intentioned way, but he had a lot to do and she was always functioning and seemed happy, while Arya seemed unhappy about being a lady and wasn't functioning. Arya wanted to fight and run around in comfortable clothes and play and be free- when that was taken away from her she rebelled and did it anyway. What Ned didn't consider was that Arya's fighting etc. was Sansa's Being married to joffrey (being a fairytale queen) and that if he would take it away from her, without any explanation, she might rebel as well.
  3. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    "She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see …” “You rotten!” Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. “Liar, liar, liar, liar.” “Arya, stop it?!” Ned shouted. Jory pulled her off her sister, kicking. Sansa was pale and shaking as Ned lifted her back to her feet. “Are you hurt?” he asked, but she was staring at Arya, and she did not seem to hear." I feel like from the text it is pretty clear how torn Sansa feels. She doesn't want to betray her sister. she doesn't want to betray Joffrey. She doesn't want to speak out against either of them. And her answer does reflect that. She "doesn't remember" imo kind of means, she doesn't want to give an answer at all. She doesn't want to be in this situation. She is under so much stress she is about to cry. After she says a few words Arya already attacks her and starts hitting her. Otherwise Ned maybe could have followed up with questions, but it is still no excuse for him imo. But maybe after that he wanted to spare her, because she didn't even seem to be able to listen to him anymore. Normally she would make a fuss for Arya hitting her, but she doesn't here- she doesn't even claim to be hurt. She is just pale and starring at her sister. She knows she fucked up. I do think she feels very guilty here, but she was in an impossible situation. And Arya getting always so angry and aggressive so quickly makes it "easier" to fight back against her and hate later. And blame her. Not that it makes it right, but it is easier to hate someone back, who passionately already hates you.
  4. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    No I don't think so either. It would have felt like a punishment to her. But he can't expect "both" from her. 1. He could have either not put her into that situation at all. He could have just said as her father:" My other daughter actually told the same story." But then must have broken up the engagement. He couldn't have thrown her under the bus like that and then marry her to him after. 2. Or he could have sat Sansa down after she told him the truth and had a serious talk with her about Joffrey. That was what I was talking about in the beginning of our conversation about Ned ignoring warning signs just as much as Sansa. Because he he knew about the warning signs. Both Sansa and Arya had told the truth about what happened at the Trident. The real warning sign to me always was, that Joff actually threatened Ayra with his sword to the degree, that her wolf attacked him. That should have been warning sign enough imo. But then he heard the actual story from Ayra and Sansa. So imo he had just as much warning signs as Sansa. But the difference is, that he is not an 11 year old little girl with an infatuation, but an adult and also responsible for her as her father. I don't blame Ned though. I think it is always easy from the outside (and as readers, that we have the complete knowledge of the whole situation and outcome) to be convinced, that someone should have known better. We also have the "hindsight-bias". But if we don't blame Ned, Sansa shouldn't be blamed either. In this serious talk he could have pointed out to Sansa all the things that are wrong with Joffrey. He could have explained it long and detailed and told her he was ending the engagement, because Joffrey is not someone, who is a good person, but dangerous. It would have needed to be a very strict and tough talk. Not how he talks to her usually. So if she threw a temper tantrum and didn't agree his him (very likely she would do exactly that) he would have the waring signs and should not bring her in front of Robert. But if he had explained it to her very well and she was understanding, he should have told her how impotent it is, that she supports her sister and tells the truth, because now since not marrying Joffrey anymore, she doesn't owe him loyalty. But she owes it to her family. So if she 100% got that and was understanding about Joffrey's nature, he could have brought her before Robert.
  5. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    But the king doesn't call a witness. It is Ned, who calls her. look at #287
  6. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.” Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more. Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.” “They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.” This very much implies Sansa had told the same story as Ayra. He says he knows the truth, meaning his both daughters told the same story. Now he is bringing her in front of the king. Not the king himself. He is requesting her to tell her story not Robert. So I don't see how he couldn't say, but Sansa this is not what you told me before. And it also doesn't help, that Renly an Bobby are already starting to humiliate Joffrey. Which doesn't help either.
  7. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    You are so right! Why did he actually not do that? He was her father, why didn't he just call her out or why didn't he just say to Robert: "Okay if she can't remember rn. I'll tell you what she told me before. This is what she said..." It almost feels like he didn't want to take on the responsibility of accusing the prince himself or put Sansa into the position of doing that. Either I really don't know why he didn't
  8. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I agree. Imo Robert was quite afraid of Cersei and the Lannisters and if it was not something, that he truly cared about himself (and he doesn't care about Mycah and the direwolfs are just pets for him) he would not go against her so not to risk her fury and revenge. Hurting Cersei's children is not acceptable, it is worse, than hurting herself and she won't rest until she gets "justice" for that and Robert very well knows that. So the trail was just a farce. The outcome was determined from the beginning
  9. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Did he truly believe it was so dangerous? He wanted to make a Lady out of her didn't work so well instead he organized her dancing lessons.
  10. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I disagree. It would have only made c+j more aggressive and more inclined to make Sansa appear like a liar as well. They would have gotten their revenge for this one way or another and it would have been only bigger, if she had openly gone against her betrothed and I don't Robert would have allowed for the engagement to be broken. And nevertheless a direwolf did bite the crown prince so a direwolf would have died for that.
  11. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    haha you really think that could have ever happened? Maybe privately, but for sure not publicly
  12. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    A bigger thing than Lady is for me, that he should have send the girls away first and than told Cersei of his knowledge.
  13. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    So you truly think anything would have been different, if she'd told the truth? I think it would have made Cersei (and Joff) only more aggressive
  14. Nagini's Neville

    Robb lost his purpose and that's why he lost the War.

    Not Tywin, but Joffrey
  15. Nagini's Neville

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Well, this is a case study on yourself by yourself. And also -excuse me-but by no means an empirical one. We have exactly one probant and one researcher here and they are both you yourself. So I apologize, but that's not really meaningful. That's not telling me anything. And even if there was evidence for a "natural born empath" (the environment is always a factor, that you cannot exclude) there is no evidence that Arya is one. That is just your interpretation and that's fine.
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