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Mystical

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  1. First of all, they changed their tune as early as S7, regretting having crowned Jon. Because an absent King is no king at all. But that aside, why do you assume the rest? Did you not pay attention to any dialogue? Sansa did not make herself Queen. She went to KL to free Jon and for him to come back north and be king (this is stated on the screen). Did you not watch her coronation either? Sansa is there, no weapons or guards on her, in a room full of people raising theirs to declare her queen. So they made Sansa their Queen, why would they kill her or not respect her? She didn't make herself queen, THEY DID. Seriously, S8 isn't rocket science.
  2. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    A little off-topic but wouldn't Joffrey's (and the Lannisters) illegitimacy be grounds for Sansa to annul her marriage to Tyrion? On the grounds of non-consummation doesn't seem to be enough (especially if she loses her hymen in some way) and probably requires both to agree (and Tyrion is a spiteful person these days so fat chance). So wouldn't Joffrey's illegitimacy be the ground on which to annul the marriage then? Because I don't see any other way. Unless Tysha pops up randomly and her marriage to Tyrion was never annulled (again fat chance).
  3. Hell yes that was good writing. Those lines were genius. As if they came right out of the aSoIaF books.
  4. A lot, not all of it, has to do with character preference. To give you an example, I also discussed this show in another forum dominated by Jon, Dany and Jonerys fans. Talking at length about about the problems with D&D's writing. They wouldn't hear it. To them the blatant sexism, racism, homophobia etc. was non-existent. The only problem they had in S7 for example was mostly anything not related to J,D or J/D. I remember having a discussion about the idiocy of Dany burning the food during the loot train attack. I even pointed out that Dany, in that same episode, mentioned that she didn't know how to feed her people. It fell on deaf ears, even worse was people bending over backwards to excuse it and making one nonsensical comment after the other. These same people were the loudest and most vocal anti-S8 people. Suddenly there are problems such as bad writing and character assassination and sexism. Gee I wonder why. I'm sure it had nothing to do with Dany, Jon and Jonerys crashing and burning horribly. Rarely was the media brave enough to criticize because of how big GoT was, no one wanted to loose their exclusive all-access pass. Even the most vocal anti-S5 media (due to the Sansa rape, Dorne etc.) or general GoT critical media was fringe media, not main media. When it comes to viewers, it largely depended on their fave characters or ship coming out on top (the J,D and J/D example above is just one experience I had). When that wasn't the case anymore though, see S8, suddenly they joined the bandwagon that other people had been on for years.
  5. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Why do you keep bringing up Jamie? I just don't understand what the point of that is other than shifting the goal post of the discussion. And for the record, we are talking about the wedding/bedding time only. Never in my discussion did I bring up the long term prospect of his wooing technique, only that I can't see someone ever getting over the fact that her spouse and their family jailed her for life, mistreated her, killed her family and her spouse advanced themselves over the dead bodies of her family and used her and her body to get themselves some prime real estate. But by the time of the wedding/bedding we know that Tyrion knows what his family did to her, that she has no reason to trust or like him, that she is a prisoner who was abused by his family and that his family his killing hers. These are things Tyrion has acknowledged but for some reason slip his mind in their chamber when he thinks 'I will give her time, she will come to appreciate me and want me eventually'. In that moment it was complete self-delusion. And it's not like this isn't in his character. He does the exact same thing with Shae. He knows he is only paying for a fantasy but for some reason treats the situation as real despite knowing she has no feelings for him, no obligation to him beyond what he paid for and is only acting out his fantasy. And when he gets a reality check, that it is in fact a fantasy, he gets pissed off. He does the same thing with Sansa, when she doesn't act like the perfect fantasy wife that he imagined, he throws himself a pity party and is even angry with her. You included the female gaze only after my reply to you so again, my point stands. No straw man on my end. And my point was that him not doing it was amusement to the court. That was the entire point in my little paragraph where I mentioned that (and that's exactly what I wrote). You chose to turn it around and act as if I insinuated he can't actually physically do it. @Nagini's Neville understood the difference perfectly, you just chose to put words in my mouth. Again, Jamie is irrelevant. He is not in this situation. Tyrion is and that's the only man we need to discuss. How hard is that to understand? Keep your polite insults to yourself. You keep putting words in my mouth, purposefully twisting what I say, moving goal posts and back tracking. If I was as stupid as you call me here, oh sorry I mean my brain was as tired/frustrated as you insinuate, I would probably not even recognize your attempts to invalidate my points with the aforementioned techniques. This was your post just 2 pages back. Notice a word in there that you just denied having used? DWARF. I never even mentioned his dwarfism as a reason for anything or made comparisons with other non-dwarves (like you tried to do by bringing in Jamie). You basically twisted everything I said, bring another person into it (Jamie or non-dwarves) and then said everything I brought up as to what Tyrion consciously has acknowledged about the situation with Sansa becomes a non issue if it was anyone but Tyrion. So the only reason why she wouldn't care for her hubby was his physical disability. Maybe it's not my brain that's tired...
  6. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    I'm not sure if this is Tyrion's thought when he interrupts her beating (it's not his POV chapter right?). But there are only 2 options for me that make any logical sense in regards to Tyrion's character. He is worried about word getting back to the Starks at how Sansa is treated and that they could retaliate by doing something to Jamie. He is after all worried about Jamie when it comes to the riots so it's a normal conclusion to come to. Or, since he is fully on board the Lannister power train, he's worried about the public image of their regime and how this could damage their image in the eyes of Lords who the Lannisters might need an alliance with. I thinks it's safe to say thought that it has nothing to do with Sansa's well being at all. The riot is after the beating incident and he's not worried about her for her sake in the riot. And since he never takes any steps to prevent further beatings, it's IMO a natural conclusion that he doesn't give a damn about her or her safety. I'm going to share a little anecdote as why this talk every page about Sansa being womanly enough below the neck to be considered a woman rather than a child is disturbing to me. I have a friend who developed early, like really early. She had her first period at age 9, started developing breasts at age 10 and stopped physically growing at age 12-13. Apparently to some in this thread that means she would be considered a woman at 10 (just because her curves were starting to develop), therefor it's fine for men to be attracted to her and want to sleep with her. And as you said, faces however don't look much different that a regular child that age. I even looked at old photos because of this discussion. She towers over everyone (and is twice the height of the smallest in the class which looks hilarious to be honest) but just comparing their faces, she looks just as much a child as everyone else. Which is what I said in my original post but the person chose to ignore it and twist it into something else. My not having empathy for Tyrion in this specific situation comes down to a very simple fact. Choice. Sansa has absolutely no choice in anything that's going on. Even the 'choice' of Lancel is not a choice because he is a Lannister and the goal was to marry Sansa into their family no matter what. They could have paraded 50 guys in front of Sansa and told her to pick one but those 50 guys would all be Lannisters. So it's not a choice. Tyrion had choices every step of the way. It was ultimately his choice to marry her or not. He could have chosen to tell her beforehand what was going to happen. And as her now husband, all the choices in regards to what happens in the bedroom are his. And Tyrion chose to marry her to further benefit himself. He chose to make her a Lannister prisoner for life for his own ambition. He wanted to sleep with his child prisoner bride (that he keeps referring to as a child, as do other people in the story). He chose not to go through with it in the end because of his issues and not for her sake. I have plenty of empathy for Tyrion in parts of the story, for example when it comes to how he is treated by his own family (I would have empathy for anyone who is abused), how society views him and the Tysha reveal. I just don't in this situation with Sansa.
  7. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    If you had actually followed the conversation you would have realized that this isn't something romantic about wooing someone. How you even arrived at that and try to turn it around as if it was my argument that wooing is something bad, I just can't. His issues is what made him stop. Him stopping and thinking that not attacking her right now and instead wait in the hopes that she will willingly consent sometime in the future, is self delusion on his end. Because it ignores all the reasons why Sansa might never want to. Because it's not all about his looks. The major reason is in fact that he is a Lannister and what his family did to her and her family and is probably something a person might never get over.
  8. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    She is the victim in this situation in every way imaginable and he knows it but he's still all 'woo is me' and vomits is issues onto her on top of everything else. And then proceeds to throw himself a major pity party for the rest of time she is in KL.
  9. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Did you follow the discussion...at all?
  10. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    And he knows that how? Because I'm sure if you asked Sansa, she would have said that her best option was Willas Tyrell. But Tyrion's daddy took that opportunity away from her. So why am I supposed to give him any leeway? He is helping his family to destroy hers and advance himself over their dead bodies and making her his prisoner for life. You are backtracking. Because in the quote I responded to, you specifically said 'it wasn't really an offer'. I certainly didn't make that up. More backtracking. You specifically singled out the male gaze in your reply to me. If you didn't mean to make it gender specific or say there is a female gaze, then you shouldn't have singled out the male gaze and/or included that a female gaze exists. I can only reply to what you actually answer, not what you potentially leave unsaid. Very convenient that every reply of yours is 'I never said otherwise'. How would I know what you would or wouldn't say otherwise? My reply is a direct response to what you wrote. Not what you potentially left out. And that's all I can do. You accused me of insinuating that Tyrion had trouble performing and then went on about how we and everyone else knows he doesn't. When that wasn't even the point. The point was that the court knew he hadn't consummated the marriage and how that was amusement for the court. Which he could have spared himself from by not marrying her. You twisted what my original point was so the fault lies with you for not reading carefully. So again I ask. Why am I supposed to feel sympathy for him? Or empathize with him? He only cared about himself and not about her at all, THE END. Which is the point you just made. But I'm sure you will backtrack on that, again. No. You tried to move the goal post. We were not discussing Jamie because Jamie is in fact not in this position. So he's not a factor in this discussion. It's not convenient, I just decided not to engage in your attempt to move the goal post. Simple really. LMAO. I never once mentioned his dwarfism. Thanks for proving that you love twisting what someone writes and put words in their mouth they haven't even said and deliberately ignore the point. And the hilarious part is that we know Tyrion has had these thoughts consciously about their situation (it's literally in the text). The mental gymnastics you went through to arrive at 'by your given reasonings' is impressive though, so props for that. Just because I chose to have no empathy for Tyrion in this specific situation makes you decide I'm 100% evil? So you made it a zero sum game in which I'm 100% evil and 0% good? Oh irony.
  11. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Calling my attitude evil makes it sooooo much better. /s And if choosing to empathize with the child prisoner bride that has no choice instead of the adult with all the choices makes me evil, then I don't want to be good anyway. If that's the best defense you have in regards to my opinion you might not understand the first rule of discussion. Attack the post, not the poster.
  12. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Only if ignored the above evidence presented by @Nagini's Neville. That's the text right there. If he stops it for Sansa's sake, then we can talk. And coming across a beating by accident and never at any other point make sure she isn't beaten again won't get him a cookie from me. Because he clearly doesn't care about her well being. Why would he? Again such an easy answer. Not add himself to the list of Lannisters who mistreat and hold prisoner a poor 12 year old girl (and he was already on the list by supporting his family by proxy). Apparently it needs to be repeated but for Sansa's sake. If he's such a swell guy, that's the reason right there. He was told to marry her and then somehow he's like 'but you have the option of choosing another Lannister Sansa'? Yeah that sounds like he didn't have have a way out at all. Again why make this about gender? As if the female gaze doesn't exist? I'm sure Marvel has all their main male stars beef up to the max and then take their shirt off in movies for the male gaze. And you ignore one very vital point and it's an important one. He might not have control of his penis' reaction but he sure as hell has control over his actions. If he knew she was a child and on some level thought it was wrong (which he did), then he shouldn't have touched her and almost raped her. The former he did and the latter only didn't happen because of his issues. What does that have to do with what I wrote? When did I say he had trouble with that? Reading more carefully might be in order. Tyrion's best option in the marriage department is literally a beautiful child prisoner. That's the only way he has to get such a wife. And that's utterly selfish on his end and completely ignores the child prisoner. Of course he was deluded. He knew, and we know he knows via his thoughts, that Sansa had no reason to trust him or like him or have any positive feelings towards him because of what his family was doing to her and her family. Yet he still expected her to be a picture perfect wife (partly due to the role women serve in their system) that will eventually fulfill his fantasy. The same way he deluded himself with Shae. Jamie doesn't matter to this topic. As Jamie is a different character with very different issues so any discussion about that is moot.
  13. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    I'm not talking about 13 year old Tyrion. I'm talking about adult Tyrion. So Tysha doesn't matter. Current Tyrion seems somehow so dense that he doesn't get that the only way to get someone of Sansa's name and beauty is exactly in the way he got her. As a prisoner of his family. No one of high caliber wanted to marry their daughter to Tyrion, for several understandable reasons. If Tyrion hadn't adopted such insane high standards he might have found a woman, even if she was from a more minor house. That's why he doesn't rape her. It's his issue of wanting someone who wants him. He hopes if he is kind to her now, she will come to care for him later. And willingly open up to him and want too sleep with him. But he totally ignored the reality of HER situation when he thought that. Tyrion is nothing if not self-deluded even when he knows the truth. And iirc, Lollys Stokeworth was on the table as a marriage prospect. So no, it didn't have to be a high class wife. Yes, lets forget the actual reason why he stops her public beating and later sends the KG for her in the riots. His main concern was Jamie NOT Sansa. He was worried about what would happen to Jamie if word got back to the Starks about what was being done/what happened to Sansa. It's not about her or her well being for Sansa's sake. Oh please. He had every opportunity to do so and he didn't even have to do it in person if he was worried about spies or whatever. It's not because it's right there in the text. The reason he doesn't rape her was made clear. 'If I'm nice to her now and not force her at this moment, we will be a lovey dovey couple in the future'. And his trigger was her revulsion. What does her early development have to do with it? Even Tyrion, despite her womanly curves, continually calls her a CHILD. She is a child to him despite her appearance. And that's, again, in the text. Hey, here is a novel concept. Why didn't he say NO right from the start? Sansa didn't have a choice to get out of the marriage, she would have been married to a Lannister regardless. Tyrion was the one who really had the choice from the very beginning. He could have said no when the choice was offered to him. And you know what else would have happened? He would have been spared the embarrassment of her not kneeling. He would have been spared the dreadful bedding night. He would have not been the laughing stock of the court for his inability to take her maiden head. And he would have spared Sansa the dreadful bedding night as well because Lancel was in no shape to consummate. He would have also been spared a wife who was nice and courteous but didn't fulfill his fantasy of the perfect wife and married life. Why? It was his choice 100% despite the fact that he knew she was a child prisoner who was being held hostage and abused by his family (and he was also her jailer for life via the marriage), his family was killing off hers and using her for her birth right. Anyone with a functioning brain would know that this is not a recipe for any sort of a good marriage. He chose to delude himself into thinking otherwise.
  14. Mystical

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    It's not just about the wedding but the bedding ceremony. It's literally the topic title. And during the bedding/wedding parts in the books it's made very clear that Tyrion knows... 1) She is a child. 2) She is a prisoner of his family and therefor him as well. 3) His family has killed hers and is still actively trying to kill the rest of f them (which also clears the line of succession for his and Sansa's possible child). 4) His family ordered her abuse. 5) That her miserable lot goes far beyond the typical arranged marriage, due to points 1-4. It's also made clear that... 1) Tyrion wants Winterfell. 2) Tyrion is a huge classist and only wants a beautiful wife with the right name. Minor houses and average looking or comely looking women need not apply. 3) He never bothers to help better Sansa's position (warning her about the wedding, making sure she isn't beaten, helping her escape etc.) 4) He wants Sansa sexually despite her being a child. 5) He would have gone through with raping his 12 year old child prisoner bride if her revulsion at the prospect hadn't triggered his own issues. 6) He didn't have to marry her. Sorry but 100% of my empathy lies with the abused and used 12 year old child prisoner bride and not with the guy who didn't have to marry her, is a borderline pedophile, who didn't lift a finger to help her (coming across one of her public beatings by accident doesn't count), who is helping eradicating her family and who is also a misogynist and classist. But that's just me.
  15. Mystical

    The Starks

    First of all...intend matters. Robb didn't crown himself King of the Trident. Second, most of his men died thanks to Roose and Walder (and Tywin by proxy), Robb didn't kill them himself. He can't also be everywhere at once to watch every single person in his army. He's not Tywin who deliberately send men to terrorize the smallfolk. So it was never his intend. The one thing you could argue is that they never should have called the banners in the first place and just stayed in the North (Ned isn't worth thousands of smallfolk getting killed). Arya intentionally goes after people who have hurt her or her family. That's probably gray as hell but it's not like her targets are innocents. Bran warging Hodor in life threatening situations can be seen as gray, when he does it intentionally for shits and giggles, that's abhorrent. The Sansa thing is nonsense anyway and the worst that Jon did was separate a mother from her child with the intention to save another child. But how can you disagree with the other children? Did Cersei not kill her best friend as a child just for saying Jamie is oh so dreamy? Did Tyrion not rape his wife Tysha when he was 13 or so? Did MMD and her village not suffer in part for Dany's ambition?
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