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Mystical

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  1. How inept are you that you manage 5 rebellions from inside your own freaking family (Blackfyres) in only 300 years of ruling? And dragging the rest of realm into your petty family squabbles as a result. How inept are you to let sadistic, crazy people rule instead of removing them? Because that is a recipe for your own undoing, in the form of rebellions. That kind of ineptitude will only work for so long until it becomes a giant problem to the point where the rest of the continent will say 'enough'. And that whole God complex, I can do what I want and screw the consequences because I'm a Targ thinking, will eventually backfire as well.
  2. These people don't seem to understand what a fictional character is. Sansa, the fictional character, didn't make this choice. There is no blame to fall on her because she was written that way by THEM. It's just like their idiotic comment in the Inside the Episode segment for 8x01 or 8x02, where they said that all these characters meeting each other again is almost a bigger moment for them than it is for the viewers. Which...what? The characters aren't real, it means nothing to them because they are FICTIONAL.
  3. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    That's not my point. If you paid attention to the poster I quoted, they made it seem as if Sansa only sees Sandor as a good guy she would immediately trust if she saw him again. Which she shouldn't, whether that's in general or in terms of herself. Because the only way that would happen is if she has suppressed all the ugly things he has done to her personally. And I would hope that she hadn't suppressed it all because it would be terrible learned behavior, aka 'he's good to me but he also abuses me but he did some good things for me so I trust him'.
  4. Mystical

    House of the Dragon Series Order Announced

    How? Ros is not even a book character and I don't remember this scene from the books. We didn't need that scene with her and the other prostitute, we already knew Joffrey was a monster. The Sansa scene was enough to showcase that. Heck every Joffrey scene was enough. It was useless scene about violence against women, the sexist crap this show is known for (pointless nudity of and violence against women). And this useless scene came in an episode written by a woman. That was my point. Just because you have a female writer doesn't guarantee good writing for or of female characters.
  5. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    IMO GRRM's comment about Sansa as an unreliable narrator is way overblown by some people. Her name was used as an example. In a first person POV literature, everyone is an unreliable narrator. What you retain, or feel or think is colored by so many things that reality can often times be something completely different from an outside perspective. That's why if you were to show an accident to 10 people, you would get 10 different accounts. Some details might match between several people but non of them will have an identical account. The problem here is that she has to purposefully repress the ugly side of what Sandor did to her which sets a dangerous precedent. Sure Sandor is helpful but he is also majorly abusive in his dealings with her. He belittles her, thinks her stupid and he attacks her physically etc.. I don't want that blind spot of repression for Sansa since it's dangerous. Because then she runs the danger of normalizing this behavior just to stay sane and survive. She can absolutely see the positive things Sandor has done for her but she should not loose sight of the fact that he did some some ugly stuff to her as well. This should not become learned behavior because then it becomes normal and Sansa never gets away from abuse.
  6. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I've already blamed both parents in this thread. And since when is ignorance an excuse for anything? And Cat would be the one to have more contact with the Septa so it's really on her to make sure the Septa is not an alcoholic or a horrible teacher. But Ned is the head of his family. I do wonder how the girls would have been raised if Ned hadn't been up for Cat's southern ways. After all a Septa is not a thing of the North. Who would have been in charge of the child rearing then as far as the girls are concerned? And my main problem with Ned as a parent has little to do with pre-story child rearing. He was the parent with the girls when they left WF. How are they not his responsibility then? Or his main concern for that matter? Ned cares more about Robert, his honor (until he abandons it way too late), Cersei's children and investigating Jon Arryn's death than he does his girls, especially Sansa.
  7. Mystical

    Does Targaryen blood matter anymore?

    Doesn't Dany's line also have First Men blood in it, specifically warg blood? Wonder if that got activated too on that fateful comet day.
  8. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Parents are responsible for their children. So are kindergarten and school teachers. There are laws about that in case you aren't aware. No one said children have to be watched 24/7. Fact remains that children are to be taken care of and protected by their parents. But that's not really the issue here as this doesn't take place in our modern times. Fact is that Sansa and Arya are both highborn Ladies. While in WF you can let them roam free because they are protected, you can't do that while on the road or in a strange, big city. Someone could kidnap them. Someone could rape them. Sansa especially has to deal with anything with a penis between the ages of 10-100 (being hyperbolic here) wanting to rape her. Ned should be freaking aware of this fact if for no other reason than the prevailing story is that his sister was raped by Rhaegar. And Lyanna was only a few years older than Sansa. There is no way he doesn't know how their world operates when it comes to women. And Ned doesn't have to watch the girls personally, he took people and guards with them when leaving WF.
  9. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    HEY! Don't you do Joffrey dirty. Sansa's father left her alone, with an alcoholic nun who ended up passed out after the tourney, in a world full of pedos (see LF feeling up Sansa and said nun doing nothing) and murderers in a completely strange city. And unlike Ned, Joffrey had an actual guard accompany Sansa back to the Keep. When bad, evil Joffrey shows more concern for Sansa's safety than Ned, you know parental fail has reached an all time high. Joffrey looks better than oh so beloved and can-do-no-wrong Ned. Maybe because Ned is the freaking parent who failed 100% in his parental duties? If a child ran off with another without telling anyone where they went, that child ended up pushing the other in the river and because they can't swim they drown. Whose fault is that? Of course it's the parents fault because they are supposed to watch their children. And I don't remember anyone blaming Arya in this thread. And no one was defending Sansa, just talking about the logic some fans use. Might want to read what people wrote again.
  10. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    So you agree that Sansa then also doesn't share any blame in Ned's death? Because that is the only logical consequence of what you said here. If Arya involves an innocent in her selfish desires and something happens to them because of it, she is to blame. Just like Sansa gets blamed for Ned's death for something selfish she did. So I'm really wondering why so many people (not you) in this thread put the blame on Sansa then. They both disobeyed their father and people died (+ a direwolf). Nymeria can't attack Joffrey if first Arya doesn't disobey her father and goes off to play and involves Mycah in her shenanigans. If Arya had just been alone, swinging a stick around I doubt this would have happened. Because a peasant is an easy target for Joffrey, Arya is the daughter of the WotN. Wasn't referring to you. But generally to some posters in this thread. Sorry if that wasn't clearer. In a monarchy or feudalism there are rules. Such as behaving yourself in a manner fit your station, especially when in the company of the royal family. And that goes doubly for physically attacking a member of said family. I've already stated several times in this thread that it's not my opinion. One action leads to another and another. It's a domino effect. Everything started with Arya going off to play with Mycah. If that didn't happen or Arya was just off by herself, then Sansa/Joffrey probably just finish their stroll or they come across Arya and Joffrey makes fun of her. But I doubt he would attack her physically. And everything that follows wouldn't have happened and Lady and Mycah both still live. And I've already said I agree with you, kids went off playing. But people have been bringing up the Lady death = Sansa's fault nonsense again so I simply laid out how this ended up from my POV which is Sansa has the least responsibility. And Arya and others are more at fault than her. No. My measuring stick starts at the root cause which in these two cases was children disobeying their father. And from then on I lay out a path of the domino effect. However there is a bigger picture around them which is why in the end I don't blame Sansa for Ned just like I don't blame Arya for Mycah/Lady. But people in this thread have different rules for different characters, specifically Arya and Ned. I never meant you, I was speaking generally. Just because I quoted you doesn't mean everything in my post was addressed at you, otherwise I would have used a lot more 'you'.
  11. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Actions have consequences right? Highborn Ladies are I'm sure not to get involved with common folk like that. Much less run off with them to play. Heck I think most of them are not to engage in male activities, like sword fighting, at all. And I'm sure everyone in that world is not allowed to attack the crown prince. It's funny that Sansa running to Cersei absent the knowledge of what's going on in KL gets blamed for Ned's death. But Arya 'just wanted to play with another child' so it's fine and she is blameless for Lady's death...because? There are societal norms in their world which people and children have to obey. Lady Sansa disobeyed her father which is against their society, it had bad consequences -> Ned's death Sansa's fault. Lady Arya running off with some commoner and play sword fighting and attacking Joffrey is against their societal norms and it has bad consequences -> Arya shares no blame for Lady's (or Mycah's) death. Both of them engaged in behavior not befitting their societal rules. In both cases someone died. Mind you this is not my opinion, as I agree with you about Arya just wanting to play with another child but she did attack Joffrey. And Sansa was absolutely self-serving when she ran to Cersie. But the measuring stick for both characters is different here it seems. Which makes sense how? If one blames Sansa for Ned's death, then Arya is to blame for Lady's (and Mycah's). Simple as that. Frankly that Sansa gets blamed as the main perpetrator for either Ned or Lady is nonsensical. While Ned and Arya and their actions are excused. One either uses the same measuring stick for all characters or simply admit to bias.
  12. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    You know what would have prevented Lady's death? PARENTS WATCHING THEIR FREAKING CHILDREN. This can't be said enough times since people seem to completely absolve the freaking adults of everything, especially Ned. Arya wouldn't have been playing with Mycah and even if Ned allowed it, it would have been under supervision. Joffrey having guards with him wouldn't change anything since they do what he tells them anyway. But guards would have either prevented the scene from escalating but at the very least stopped Arya from attacking Joffrey and removed her and Mycah from the scene. Joffrey, Cersei, Arya, Robert and Ned are the most responsible for what happened to Lady. Joffrey by being his douchy self, Cersei by being a spiteful wench, Arya for playing with Mycah, Robert for wanting to stop his wife's nagging and Ned for actually killing Lady. 3 innocent (Mycah, Lady, Sansa) paid the price for other peoples actions while none of the people who caused this drama paid anything. What exactly do people want Sansa to do? Playing Switzerland was the best thing she could have done and her and Lady still played the price for doing so. Admit to Arya's account of what happened? I'm sure there are never any consequences in that world for attacking the CROWN PRINCE. Back up Joffrey's account which would make her a liar and outright betray her family? Maybe a little less vitriol from Cersei and Joffrey but I doubt that. And I'm sure the readers would have loved that. Lets say she lies and agrees with Joffrey and Lady is saved. Then everyone would be calling her selfish for saving her wolf. No matter what Sansa does people seem determined to blame her for everything that goes wrong.
  13. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    OK I didn't bother reading beyond this. Boxing me in as a 'Sansa fan' and calling my view skewed. I'm not interested in this toxic nonsense. Just because I'm able to remove myself from any character preference or hate and look at the chain of events that unfolded doesn't make my view skewed in any way. Calling me a Sansa fan just shows that you have no idea about me and prefer to discard my opinion on a flimsy strawman like that.
  14. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I don't care. I subscribe to the 'death of the author' in every form of media whether that's books, shows, movies or even art. Yes Sansa is naive but whose fault is that? It's not Sansa's, she didn't raise herself. That's a parental fail from Ned and Cat. And as I've said repeatedly, he gave Sansa no reason as to why he was taking them out of KL. To Sansa, who saw her fairytale going away, is was simply disobedience for probably the first time in her life. For the bigger plot going on, it helped Ned's enemies. But that was not something Sansa was in any way aware of. And that is Ned's fault. The Arya comparisons need to stop. She is a wildly different character with different temperament. She was allowed more freedom and has a different relationship with Ned. To say it's not parent fail...I don't see how that's possible. Sansa was the first born daughter of whom the expectations were much higher than her younger sister. They brought in a Septa for grooming. Sansa was just more susceptible to the grooming than Arya, and in part it's because they are not the same person and Arya was allowed more freedom. Sansa enjoyed all things womanly, music, sewing and so on. Arya did not. Ned and Cat raised Sansa in a bubble with nothing but fairytales while completely neglecting to prepare her for the reality of the world. The children should have never accompanied Ned to KL in the first place, both where completely unprepared for that vipers nest. Arya kept antagonizing everyone she didn't like no matter their standing in society and Sansa saw the world through rose colored glasses. Arya thumbed her nose at their societal norms while Sansa abided by them. That's a recipe for disaster that anyone with half a working brain should seen coming. Having no one assigned to watch over them but an alcoholic is absolutely a parental fail. Aside from all the pedophiles in that world who want Sansa, the Mycah incident and Sansa running to Cersei would never have happened if there were people assigned to watch over them. Freaking Joffrey showed more concern for Sansa's physical well being than Ned did when he tasked the Hound with taking Sansa back to the Keep after the tourney. Ned just send an alcoholic with Sansa who predictably passed out so Sansa was all alone. If that's not negligence and utter parental fail then I don't know what is.
  15. Mystical

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Which I still find insane that even GRRM thinks this. Because as I said before, Sansa had no knowledge of what Ned was doing. She might never have gone to Cersei if she knew what was going on. So Sansa's action, self-serving as it may have been, was a direct result of Ned's own negligence. From his failure as a parent, allowing Arya constant disobedience and freedom which eventually would lead to Sansa, the ever obedient one, seeing what all the fuss was about. And if I remember correctly, Sansa felt wicked for misbehaving. His failure to have guards assigned to his daughters which was an absolute must after he dropped the incest bomb on Cersei. His failure to ever talk to Sansa and justify his actions, in this case cluing her in about the bigger picture. Ned's actions and inactions made it possible for Sansa to do what she did. So in the end, it's still all Ned's own fault to me.
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