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Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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About Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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    Queen of Love and Beauty
  • Birthday 05/18/1980

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  1. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Listen I love Ned. He is great. But how can Sansa hold responsibility for Lady's death for not spilling the beans, Cersei holds some for giving the command, Robert for allowing it but Ned holds absolutely none for actually killing Lady? No way. I get Ned was in a bad position but so was Sansa. If it's no excuse for her, it's not one for him.
  2. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    What are some significant differences between Robb and Jon?

    Just out of curiosity why would you read a series if you believe the writer has created two characters, identical in all but looks? That would be rather redundant I would think.
  3. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Sansa actually gives us the reason she goes to Cersei though. She knows only the King or Queen can make her father stay & the King is loud & scares her. I'm paraphrasing, obviously but that is it in a nut shell. I guess I don't find it that odd.
  4. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Yep makes sense. That's probably what happened.
  5. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I agree with you about adaptations of the stories into movies. The books are always, always better but the-one-who-must-not-be-named really took the cake. It was bad. For some reason or another some people on the forum think that being loyal to your position (Lord/Lady etc) is much more important than being loyal to your family. So Robb not getting back his sisters is no big deal to them but Jon doing anything that might be construed as for Arya's sake is the ultimate betrayal & he should hang for it. I have a hard time with the male characters that we don't have a POV for - like Robb for instance, I just plain don't understand why he did some of the things he did. I think when we have their POV & I can read their inner thoughts it's easier for me to relate to them because even if I disagree with their reasons, I at least know them. Also, them being hyper-masculine makes it hard. Women & men, generally, just think different. I can even relate to Cersei & feel for her in a way because I understand the fierceness & the lengths I would go to to protect my children. She is a lunatic of course but I can't imagine having to watch my son choke to death before my eyes, even if he was a little twat. I am kind of a young mom I had my first at 19. Children are great IMO, it's amazing to watch these little personalities grow & shape into semi-adults. I have 3 total. 2 sons, 1 daughter, my daughter is in the middle. Everyone always says "aw poor girl with 2 boys!" but believe me she gives them a run for their money! It was very nice chatting with you & hope to talk again soon.
  6. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    Haha! Idk why but on my screen it says you quoted Nagini's Neville saying that.
  7. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I don't think I would use the words "very grave disobedience" she likens what she is doing to how Arya behaves. Arya is mischievious & frequently does things she probably shouldn't according to her parents but nothing that has been considered a "betrayal". Sansa is aware she is defying her father & she knows she is doing it to get what she wants but she doesn't view it as a "grave disobedience" she views it as a mischievious act that reminds her of things Arya has done. I think calling Sansa naive is typically referring more to her total character rather than her mind in this act. She is aware of what she is doing but she has absolutely no notion that Cersei will hold them captive & eventually Joff will behead her father. There is no harm intended to her family. She only wants to stay in KL & stay betrothed to Joffrey. Because there is typically such a strict obedience in asoiaf world Sansa almost always obeys. She says herself she has never done anything this willful before. So, I have a hard time calling her ONE act of disobedience toward her father, at the ripe age of 11, treachery & betrayal. She probably never thinks back to the incident for a couple of reasons - first & foremost she has alot going on & is trying to survive. Secondly, she probably doesn't view it as betrayal. I seldom think back to the things I did to defy my parents at 11, if ever.
  8. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    No worries! I completely understand. I remember this too. When I first came to the forums a few years ago Sansa was like the most hated. Then I took a break & started coming back & somehow or another it has changed to Arya & Jon being hated. Probably Jon worse than Arya. I agree! I think we mostly agree on everything else we were just stuck on that word "disloyal" & what it means to us. It may be a language thing (I would never have known English wasn't your first language btw - I always admire people who can master two or more languages, especially when one of them is English because it is my first language & it still confuses me sometimes!) It could be also that I was just using the wrong word to describe what I was trying to say, but yeah I definitely don't think she betrayed anyone & completely understand why you would be prickly about someone saying she did. Me too! The Starks are my favorite & it is beyond frustrating to hear all the blind hatred toward them. It's like those people didn't read the same books or something - not because the Starks aren't their favorite - but because it's like no matter what they did, or what their reasons were these people consider it the most evil thing ever. They are real & human & face real, human difficulties & I would imagine most of the people screaming that Sansa was the demise of the family or that Jon is evil reincarnate for messing with poor Ramsay are either just trying to get a rise out of someone or else they have a very difficult time putting their self in someone elses shoes. I totally get it, I see it to & it sucks. No worries I apologize for anything I said to lead you to believe I was a blind Sansa hater also, because they are definitely out there. Oh I agree. It's crazy how real these people become in your mind. On my first read I was so angry with Sansa for the whole Lady incident, my second read I paid more attention & tried to put myself in her shoes & realized I wasn't actually angry with her at all but angry at the situation. I root for Arya too & worry for her. One part of me wants her to wipe the murderous Frey's off the face of the earth but the other part of me doesn't want her to ruin her already damaged psyche any further. I want her to heal & be happy. My heart aches for Cat. Her relationship with King Robb reminds me a little of my eldest son who has recently come of age & moved out on his own. Not a King for sure LOL but becoming his own boss is a hard thing for us mothers to cope with I think & a part of us will always be their boss because they will always be our babies. I've struggled with learning to give him advice but to ultimately let him decide on his own & thankfully he has been very patient with me in this regard Yeah it's a little unreal honestly & the worst thing he did (IMO) was the switch of the babies & that is not near what they hate on him the most for. This is another time I was angry with a character but after re-reading it came to terms with the fact that he was trying to save the baby. My heart just still hurts for Gilly though. She has been through so much & fought hard to keep her baby alive & now she isn't with him. It stinks. Haha! It's so funny that you bring that up because I was just thinking last night how nice it would be to be able to have a real discussion in regards to Jon & his decisions. But I only ever end up with "JoN Is TrAitOr, PoOr RaMsaY" & it's hard to discuss things like that lol I agree & as a mother of a teenage daughter & teenage sons, I don't think society is as hard on boys as girls. My daughter has faced trials & tribulations that my sons would never have dreamed of having to face. In a way they just have a simpler life. Not that they don't face their own trials, they just don't seem to get driticized the way teenage girls do. I read twilight as a a 20 something year old & LOVED it. The movies dampened my enthusiasm a little because that Edward was NOT my Edward & especiallly the first movie just wasn't done real well. I have also been known to sing along with the Bieb even now & I'm 39. Maybe! I can tell you this forum has thickened up my skin over the years because when I first returned & seen all the hatred toward Jon I was heartbroken! I could not comprehend how, someone I viewed as a very good person, could be seen as so bad but so many others - but that is something I would like to delve into & discuss, like you would with Sansa. Maybe we should start our own threads
  9. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I think we've already covered most of this. Maybe he should have done lots of things & maybe so should have Sansa. I think we can agree they both made mistakes. I'm not trying to let Ned off the hook or keep Sansa on it. I was just saying there in these particular cases Sansa was in a position to see the signs more clearly than Ned. She spent more time with Joffrey. He was being compassionate to Cersei & he couldn't refuse the king. I haven't once said Sansa is to blame for anything other than her own actions. I didn't say Sansa should be blamed for not seeing or telling the warning signs - only that she didn't. Yes. That's hard to say when we don't know the promise. For instance if the promise was to keep Jon safe Ned is keeping Jon safe to honor that promise but he is not telling Cat to keep her & the other children safe. I can't think of a promise he gave that would mean he cannot tell Cat & still uphold said promise unless she specifically asked him to promise not to tell anyone - which is possible but seems a waste of a dying promise when if Ned was told of his parentage, not telling anyone would be a given IMO. Yeah Arya saw them & told, Sansa told a different story. Robert complained about Joffrey & that should probably been a warning sign to Ned but it is one sign. I'm not sure how much he knew about Cersei other than she was prickly & he didn't particularly care for her but I disagree that Cersei's character should have been a warning sign to Ned in regards to Joff. Children are not their parents. There are plenty of rotten kids that have come from great parents & vice versa. I don't know what you seldom ever read but I've seen Arya criticized to no end. I would most certainly use that very argument in a thread regarding Arya's transgressions if someone suggested it was all due to the way she was raised. Again, I've seen very different than you I guess. At any rate I didn't do this so how is this relevant to my comparison of Arya & Sansa? I'm not sure that's true but at any rate I haven't done this. I empathize with both girls & don't see how what most people may or may not do pertains to me in this conversation.
  10. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I agree Ned & Robb made some selfish decisions that ultimately didn't turn out well for their family, I guess the disagreement arises because I call those things selfish or short-sighted, not disloyal. At any rate none of them are perfect & all have made mistakes. I suppose maybe I just have a different idea of what loyalty is than you - which is fine. I see the people saying Sansa was the demise of her family & blah blah blah. Of course that's ridiculous. She was not the demise of her family, she was a little girl who made a mistake. You are obviously a very staunch Sansa supporter, I am the same with Jon (another person who is victim of the blind hate on the forums) so I understand the frustration. I see it too & I apologize if that is the way I have come across because I don't think that at all. I like Sansa very much & if I'm being honest I have a tendency to let all the Starks 'off the hook' because I like them all & know none of them meant for what happened to happen. When I say I let them off the hook I mean, I can understand that Ned was short sighted, maybe selfish, & should have thought things through better - something I think can be said for any of them, but I disagree with anyone who says they are to blame for what happened to them. It was no one's fault Ned ended up beheaded besides Joffrey & whoever conspired with him on that, it was no one's fault Sansa was held captive & abused in KL other than the people who held her captive & abused her. Her going behind her dad's back does not warrant the things that followed, nor did it directly bring about those things. It was a perfect storm, where several peoples actions (some unbeknownst to them) came together to create the mess. I can agree with all of this. The only disagreement I had with the convo about Robb was that while it may have been selfish & stupid, it was definitely something to critique. I just didn't read it as disloyal. Not to say one thing is better or worse than the other, just that IMO they were different & that's why I said Sansa acted disloyally in those instances, while I don't believe the other Starks have. Yeah that's how I took it so sorry for the confusion. I agree parenting plays a roll in a child's behavior & an adult should always hold more accountability than a child. Sure, but I wouldn't call Sansa's behavior betrayal. For me, & maybe I'm way off base here, but for betrayal to be the case I think there would need to be some intent of harm on Sansa's part & there was not. I haven't read it in a while either so maybe I'm misremembering or gathered a different impression than you from what I read - it wouldn't be the first time. I think we really just got off on the wrong foot honestly because I didn't mean that those were justifications for Ned's actions or that it made them not selfish, only that I didn't feel they were disloyal. To me the difference is that Sansa knew she wasn't supposed to tell & did so in order to keep her father's plans from coming to fruition. I'm not saying it's better or worse than what Ned did, only that for me that makes it disloyal. The only thing I can think of that relates in regards to Ned is his not telling Robert about Cersei & her brood. He knew Robert should know but didn't tell him. He didn't for a nice reason - because he didn't want to burden his friend with that on his death bed but it was disloyal to his King & friend. I don't think either thing is an excuse, they are both just reasons. The difference between them to me is that I would call one short-sightedness & the other disloyalty. But we could call it self-centeredness also. Sorry I have to go I'll respond to the rest later.
  11. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Fire and blood magic

    Melisandre uses fire & blood to do her spells or whatever they are.
  12. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I guess I'm really not sure what your point is. Yes, there could be something to be discovered in comparing any of them & as a matter of fact there is currently a thread comparing Jon & Robb. Just because you don't like the comparison does not mean they cannot be compared. I didn't compare them to say anything negative about Sansa but it seems, even in a thread created to discuss Sansa's discretions, you will be ridiculed for doing so. I see plenty of "blind hate" in the forum in regards to different characters, including Sansa, but I'm not one of those people so I'm not sure what exactly it is that I've done to frustrate you. At any rate I'm allowed to compare Sansa & Arya in any manner I wish, whether you like it or not. Sorry. I'm not sure if you didn't read the post I compared them in or if maybe you misunderstood it but when I compared them it was merely to say that Sansa's rearing cannot be solely to blame for who she is because there are other children, other girls (Arya) raised the same way who turned out different. For better or worse they are different people so while life experiences & parentage certainly play a role in who we are they are not the only determining factor. What penal code? Certainly not any penal code in Westeros not in real life. The penal code states for someone to not be responsible for their actions they must be incapable of telling right from wrong. Not that they must not "think of the consequences" further more Sansa's "offence" was not illegal nor have I claimed it to be. It was disloyal to her father & family. Explain to me how this is being disloyal to his family? It could be argued it was being disloyal to his King, but not his family. Again this can be argued to be disloyal to Robb but since it was an act of loyalty to her girls it can't be said it was a disloyalty to her family, because the girls are a part of her family. A selfish decision at best & an asshole one at worst, but not disloyalty. I don't understand why this is coming across so harsh that you are frustrated with me about it. Nor do I understand how to better communicate the differences in what Robb & the rest did to what Sansa did. Sansa, deliberately, went behind her father's back to reveal plans she was told not to. Maybe that means she was being loyal to her new family & if you think that's where her loyalties should lie at that point then fine, but she can't have been being loyal to her new family & her old family at the same time, in this instance. Not another Stark deliberately acted against another barring Catelyn going against Robb - because it was to save her other children though I understand it.
  13. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I feel like some people want to defend Sansa at all costs to the point they put argument in where it isn't. The poster you quoted specifically said Sansa was partly to blame but your whole paragraph goes on the premise that this poster is solely blaming Sansa - in fact that's exactly what you say & accuse the poster of when it's very clearly written that they believe her to be partly to blame.
  14. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I can agree with this mostly. He did do other things he knew would cause discord so in that sense, yes. If he were going to do things like this anyway, why wouldn't one of them be to rescue his sister's.
  15. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    I'm not judging her too harshly I don't think but the issue here is that Sansa saw the warning signs while Ned really had no way of knowing them. He didn't witness them & Sansa didn't tell him.
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