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Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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  1. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    You may be right. I wasn't trying to post misleading information though, just noting that it seems to happen. I operated under the assumption that these ages are given to the best of the calculators ability giving the information at hand.
  2. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    A couple things to note here I think. First & foremost that there is no age restriction noted. A girl who has flowered is fit for wedding & bedding, in older cultures, which Westeros is based on. Sansa has flowered, thus is fit for wedding & bedding in universe. A girl who is flowered but is not 16 yet is a maid, part woman, part child & beloved of the singers. So Sansa is a maid & maids are desirable in this culture. Girls may be married before being flowered but it is rare. Bedding them would be considered perverse. It follows that bedding them after they have flowered would not be considered perverse. Nothing of what age they may have flowered at. Also, rarely girls are married prior to their flowering making Sansa being married after her flowering not considered too young to be married by any stretch of the imagination. Generally, marriage is postponed until after the girl has flowered, putting Sansa's marriage inside the "general" & not outside the norms. Maidens may be wedded & bedded. Sansa is a maiden & may be wedded & bedded in this culture. Nothing of it being rare or perverse or outside of what generally happens - HOWEVER many men will wait until they are 15 or 16 to bed them. Many, not all, not most, not generally speaking. Also of note the reason why many men choose to wait - not because they become an adult at 16, because they wait until 15 or 16, not because it is perverse to do it sooner, but because it can harm their chances of getting an heir & harm the maid herself. High born girls tend to flower significantly younger than low born girls, possibly due to nutrition = highborn girls would tend to be of an age to be wedded & bedded at a significantly younger age than a low born girl. Sansa is indeed highborn. There are plenty of exceptions. Plenty, not a few, not rarely, plenty. This article seems to back the claim that Sansa is considered old enough to be wedded & bedded & contradict the claim that she is too young or that this is very rare or outside of norms.
  3. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Sure, it could have been 92 A.C. but given the information of the time it is calculated to be about 96 A.C. Whether that was the actual date or not doesn't matter much because the date presented as such is based on the fact that women flower around 12 years of age (just like Sansa) and are married & able to start having children shortly after. That's representing this as an acceptable thing in universe. I don't see a whole lot of difference between "approximately" & "in or after" in this context. The calculations are based on things known about the universe & the norms of society. That these women are approximately 12 when married are educated guesses & as close to the truth as can be done so approximately fits IMO. Again, my claim is that a 12, going on 13 year old being married & having that marriage consummated within that time is not unacceptable or unheard of. If there is a range of ages that is considered the "norm" Sansas age may fall on the young side of that but I've seen nothing presented to back the claims that this is outside of what is acceptable or that it's only done by Tywin & the Targs. But they don't, we have seen people younger than 15 married legally in Westeros. Possibly because their parent or guardian are of age & consenting for them. But those saying the vows clearly do not have to be an adult (16 in universe) It isn't a loop hole it's just what they think. They think a flowered girl is a 'woman' irt marriage & consummation. I'm right there with you irt these laws & practices being abhorrent, I'm just saying it's done & not once or twice but enough times for it to not be considered outside of acceptable. Is this stated? I mean I think it's likely but I don't remember the grounds being said on which Tywin had the marriage annulled. I'll look for it after I type this. Anyway, that's what I'm saying. If someone under the age of 16 can be legally married (and they can because we see it happen) but it is also true that someone under the age of 16 cannot consent to the marriage (I'm unsure about this but it's possible) then the only way around it is to say that the persons parent or guardian is giving consent for the minor to be married right? I'm following you so far. Makes sense. The only thing I would note is it isn't always the case that what is true for boys is also true for girls. It's a very misogynistic society & they likely wouldn't take much issue with making separate rules for the both of them. I don't know that is the case, I'm just speculating. I don't know if it matters that Joff is underage because he is the King, but yeah Sansa likely has numerous avenues by which to get this marriage annulled when/if someone other than a Lannister is in power, first & foremost being she was given absolutely no choice in the matter & threatened with violence to go along with it. The King is her 'legal' guardian according to the powers that be currently & I doubt any of the Lannisters or anyone other than a Stark supporter or Stark themself sitting on the throne are going to care much that Joff wasn't of legal age himself, he is the King. His word is law. But it's certainly done by deceit & anyone that looked objectively at the situation, with the power to do so, would likely annul the marriage. At least I would hope so. Why would her husband breaking a vow be grounds for an annulment? I wouldn't think that would have much to do with it. She is, for all intents & purposes, a hostage, regardless of how the Lannisters paint it & they are likely the only ones to think this way (if they really even do) she was forced by threat of violence to take these marriage vows (although I'm not sure how that works, is you father allowed to force you to marry? I think so, so operating under the assumption she is a ward of the court, Joffrey can force her to marry too) the wedding wasn't consummated, the King is not actually the previous Kings heir but a bastard born of incest, her husband is a convicted kinslayer & kingslayer. She has ample ground to get an annulment under a fair crown - she just doesn't have a fair crown at the moment. I don't disagree with any of this. The assertion I disagree with is that it's not done or it's not legal (wedding & bedding a 12-13 year old)
  4. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    I'm in agreement that it is not the norm. I said it seems to be on the young side of acceptable. I went through the Stark lineage in aWoIaF & looked up the ages at which these women were married, there's very little information on most of them but of note: Gilliane Glover born approx 96 A.C. died approx 109 A.C. (at 13) and gave birth to 2 sons before that so had to be married at approximately 11-12 years old depending on when exactly she was born. Marna Locke born approximately 236 A.C. with the birth of her first child approximately 249 A.C. at age 13 so presumably married at approximately 12 years old. This is only two examples but it was only out of 4 that I could find any info on in the Stark Lineage (barring Catelyn) so I just don't think we can say it's outside of acceptable. I would be interested in reading where it says being married requires the consent of an adult party to the marriage if thats what you mean. I'm under the impression that the adult giving consent would be the father or guardian of the person being married, since Tywin didn't give his for Tyrion, the marriage was able to be removed. I don't disagree that the marriage & consummation practices are horrific & barbaric, what I disagree with is that only the Targ's & Tywin do it. I believe there is precedence set for a girl who is flowered, regardless of her age, to be married & that marriage to be consummated. It certainly doesn't seem to be illegal by westerosi standards & law.
  5. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Yeah I agree mostly. The only place I would differ is in that it is definitely selfish & self-centered to put your own needs above a helpless abuse victim but to me "cruel" implies there is some intent to harm the person & I don't think he had that. Oh absolutely. It's not Sansa's fault he is hurt by this in the slightest. He set himself up for failure here. It's a pattern of his in a way. He does take care to avoid being hurt by Shae initially but then later allows him self to entertain the idea that Shae isn't just his "whore" & that she may actually care for him, effectively setting himself up to be hurt again.
  6. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    They certainly may but we don't really know. Im sure they would have some support but we don't hear of much, so the 2 examples the poster gave is not sufficient to say "most" would welcome or support them ya know?
  7. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    I agree irt to Tywins character & have & do agree 12 going on 13 is probably on the young side of acceptable but we do have other examples of such that don't have anything to do with Tywin (Rhaella I think was mentioned along with some others) I'll try to look later today to see how often this happens but we don't hear any one saying anything against it, other than Tyrion himself that I recall. Sansa was actually originally betrothed at 11 so it may not happen often (I'm not sure) but it certainly happens. Tommen is 9 when he marries Margaery & presumably unable to produce a child, so this would be the equivalent of an pre- flowered girl being married & isn't comparable IMO.
  8. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Yeah, for my part when we discussed this earlier in the thread it was half-heartedly & grasping at straws. It wasn't anything I seriously considered. I hadn't seen it discussed before it was brought up briefly in this thread, but it wouldn't surprise me if it had been discussed a lot. Yeah he agrees & takes it with it's poisons because it's still the best he will ever get. He has his own defense mechanisms just like anyone else. I'm sure it's pretty hard to accept in full the total reality of the situation. Also, he is likely thinking more of himself than he is of Sansa thus the self-pity. Oh, it's perverse to me also. It's very perverse, especially with my modern day mindset but if you put it in universe it's never looked at as such. I don't recall a single instance of anyone calling anyone else out because their bride is too young. If she is flowered she is old enough according to them. Yeah, it's definitely not completely disconnected from the bedding but initially we were talking about him telling Tywin she is a child & it's cruel etc. Here I think it falls in line with what Corbon said earlier. He knows she is a child mentally, he has acknowledged that from the beginning. Then, seeing her naked he realizes child or not she is sexually attractive, has a womanly body. I don't think he was prepared to view her like that, he expected to continue to see her as a child both physically & mentally. Upon seeing her body he realizes, she is a child mentally but physically, I want her - in contrast to earlier when he thought he only needed Shae, she's a woman. Oh, I'm sure it does. Regardless of how much her body may turn him on, he knows she is mentally a child. Apparently other people in universe (at least some) don't care so much about what the woman is mentally as long as physically they are considered a woman (flowered) So I agree he knows she is only doing her "duty" & I understand what you mean by saying Tyrion knows this isn't truly her duty but I don't think it's that clear cut in Tyrion's mind. He understands his sister has been sleeping with his brother & that there is at least a possibility that Joff is not Robert's heir (I can't remember if Cersei told him or if he knows for sure or not) but Joff sits the throne, is named King, & is ruling with Cersei as regent. The Lannisters have effectively ursurped the throne from Robert Baratheon in every way that matters. Not wholly unlike Robert taking the throne from the Targaryens. Robert did it by force & Cersei by deceit but they are ruling. My point being is that I just don't think Tyrion would view things like this. I don't think he would think that because Joff is Jaime & Cersei's & not Robert's that he is an unlawful King who has given an unlawful order. There are likely Targ supporters that insisted until the day Robert died that he was an unlawful King giving unlawful orders but it didn't lessen the power behind his command or change the fact that, unlawfully or no, he was sitting the throne & ruling as King, just like Joff. I disagree here. I think he is fishing for her true feelings on the matter but all she will give him is that she is willing to do her duty. Yeah but we need to remember this is the 3rd time she has asked if she should take her clothes off. To me, without Sansa's inner thoughts (which Tyrion doesn't have) this would read very much like someone who isn't particularly pleased with being married to him, who is willing to do her duty, & who wants to get on with it & get it over with. Because it's Tyrion's duty as well he is proceeding. Sansa is much more appealing physically & that certainly makes things easier for Tyrion (among other reasons it's easier for Tyrion) but he doesn't really want someone to sleep with him out of duty either. Yeah, he should have & could have been much more attentive to her being afraid. He is kind of self-centered. I think he thinks because he is afraid too that her being afraid is similar to his being afraid & that isn't the case. Had he thought more about her & her feelings here he would have realized that. Not truly, no. It's more a matter of if she doesn't know who/what he is & walks in & sees him & gets embarrassed, expresses shock with facial expressions &/or words it is going to hurt his feelings - so really he is doing it to protect himself from her embarrassment. Well we disagree on the unlawfully part but yeah he is probably hoping where there is little to hope for. Maybe not beyond hope though, you stated yourself that if Tyrion had gone about things differently on the wedding night Sansa may have come to at least care for him, respect him, trust him, even if she never loved him. I think almost the opposite here. He seems to have sympathy for her but not much empathy. He certainly cannot even begin to put himself in her shoes, nor does he try. Like he tries to sympathize with the situation she is in but it doesn't go to the level that he tries to understand how she must truly feel or try to imagine how he would feel in the same situation.
  9. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Haha! Sorry! Yep I agree Oh me too. It was a big let down that wasn't what happened. Yeah things certainly could have been different if he had decided to fake the consummation from the beginning or something like that. Sure, he is responsible for his actions 100%. I think we mostly agree honestly. Where we differ some is that while I agree the entire thing, including the bedding are terrible for Sansa & I also agree Tyrion is responsible for his own actions, I understand why his actions were what they were & don't think there was anything malicious intended on his part. Yeah, I mean it's certainly understandable that Sansa doesn't want him but I also understand why that would hurt Tyrion.
  10. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Was Robb drugged?

    I see. I guess I didn't realize people typically needed a woodswitch for moontea. I thought the maesters made it
  11. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    Right?! Lol
  12. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

    I think that's a gross overstatement.
  13. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Was Robb drugged?

    I see. So, do you think Jeyne being related to Maggy the Frog has any significance ?
  14. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Was Robb drugged?

    Not really. All of that wouldn't be necessary. The only thing she would need to know is that Robb was attacking the castle personally. Him being wounded, the wound festering or allowing the enemies daughter to nurse him wouldn't be necessary, although allowing her to nurse him would be taken care of easy enough with a potion. Or she sent a letter to Tywin as the Crag fell & carried out the ploy after. All that would be necessary would be to slip him the potion. He would allow her to tend to him if he was having romantic feelings towards her if he did get a wound & would have romantic feelings toward her even if he didn't. Yeah I see what you are saying. That would work just as well with a potion being involved though. Sybell sends out her letter swearing her allegiance & possibly even mentioning her daughter seducing Robb, & then gives Robb the potion. No, I don't think that would be plausible either. Sybell would have had to know Robb was attacking the castle. This could have been knowledge found out before the attack but I don't think that's necessary. I'm not married to any particular theory so I don't really have a solid idea in my mind about how it would all play out, just batting around ideas. I will have to go back & look at John Suburbs post but he presented 3 women I think that were in suspicious circumstances irt their marriages. Has that been refuted? Yeah, it could be. Like I said, I'm not sold, I'm just looking for something that can effectively debunk the theory before I say it couldn't have happened & I haven't seen any such thing yet. I think there are clues & groundwork laid for this to be possible & nothing that I've seen directly contradicts it so as I stand I think, it could be what is going on. No, it could have all been sheer luck. That's not impossible. I do think Robb behaved out of character when he slept with Jeyne though. - not an impossible thing either, he was under a lot of strain.
  15. Lyanna<3Rhaegar

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Yes, but he doesn't follow that exchange by thinking: I want Sansa or I want WF. He says a wife with lands & a keep. There is nothing he wants about Sansa specifically at that point, he realizes he wants her as an individual, specifically later. But at this point it would be the same if it were Sansa or any other high born maid that came with lands & a keep to allow him to remove himself far from court. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Nothing to do with Sansa in particular. Absolutely that's what he wants. He believes no one, let alone Sansa, is going to be able to give him what he truly wants - which is love, a companion etc. He gets this in Shae even though it isn't real, and on some level he knows that but it's easier on his heart to have it falsely then to not have it at all. The marriage would be just another thing thrown in the bunch & not a particularly pleasing thing to Tyrion either.
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