A deep dive into the Purple Wedding (could Sansa have been the poisoner?)

[Frey family reunion]

To start out this is not a “Stark hate thread”.  In fact I think it’s just the opposite.  It’s an in depth and psychological look at perhaps GRRM’s most interesting protagonist in the book, Sansa.  If you give this topic a chance I think you’ll come away with the takeaway that Sansa isn’t necessarily the helpless victim she appears simply being swept up in the machinations of others, but instead a complex, sympathetic character who is starting to exert her own will which I believe started at Joffrey’s wedding.  I’m going to address this in a number of posts, so hopefully you will be patient.  And yes I will address the fact that she does not acknowledge her part of Joffrey’s death in her POV.  In fact I think specifically, GRRM gives us the exact moment when she represses what she has done.  But first…

Part I.  Sansa’s motivation, her fear at being turned from a Stark into a Lannister.

We’re given her motivation in the chapter immediately preceding Joffrey’s wedding.  And it’s a fairly understandable issue.  After her marriage to Tyrion, Sansa is rightly terrified of the idea that she is being turned from a Stark into a Lannister.

We’re given the imagery early on in the chapter:

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She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two.

The imagery is that the sky goes from grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold.  It goes from the Stark color to the Lannister color.  And what had once been two separate castles turns to one, as House Lannister consumes House Stark through her marriage to Tyrion.

But we quickly move from imagery to reality as Sansa mulls Joffrey’s upcoming wedding:

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The wedding was to be at midday in the Great Sept of Baelor across the city. And come evenfall the feast would be held in the throne room; a thousand guests and seventy-seven courses, with singers and jugglers and mummers. But first came breakfast in the Queen’s Ballroom, for the Lannisters and the Tyrell men—the Tyrell women would be breaking their fast with Margaery—and a hundred odd knights and lordlings. They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly.

It’s a thought that makes her shiver in her hot bath.

Then Sansa conjures up Robb as she thinks about what the day will bring:

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“There’s a tale behind those coins,” said Tyrion. “No doubt Pod will confide it to your toes one day. Just now we are expected at the Queen’s Ballroom, however. Shall we?”
            Sansa was tempted to beg off. I could tell him that my tummy was upset, or that my moon’s blood had come. She wanted nothing more than to crawl back in bed and pull the drapes. I must be brave, like Robb, she told herself, as she took her lord husband stiffly by the arm.

I don’t think she’s hoping to summon up Robb’s courage just to make small talk with the nobles, I think she realizes what a momentous day is in store and the risk she is going to be required to take.  In fact we know that to be the case:

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She threw back the coverlets. I must be brave. Her torments would soon be ended, one way or the other.

So the question is, just how much does she know about what is supposed to transpire at Joffrey’s wedding, and what exactly is her part supposed to be, a part that requires her to try and summon her warrior brother’s courage.

Specifically, what’s her understanding of the significance of the amethyst hairnet she was given and how that will allow her justice and freedom from the Lannisters.

And Part 2 is going to be all about the amethyst hairnet.  It’s when I realized that the hairnet she was given by Dontos was in fact truly what it was said to be, a hairnet of deep purple amethyst crystals is when this theory fell into place for me.

Edited February 2 by Frey family reunion

[SeanF]

I don’t think she appreciates the significance of the hairnet, until afterwards.

I would not hold it against Sansa if she knowingly collaborated in Joffrey’s death, however.

[Melifeather]

An interesting proposition to explore indeed! I guess I assumed it was all planned by Lady Olenna to protect her dear Margaery, and I don't think she minded one bit that she was risking Sansa's life to do it.

I really appreciated you pointing out the symbolic nature of the cloud castles and I agree with your interpretation whole heartedly! I look forward to reading part 2!

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

I think the idea is quite far-fetched and it could have mightily backfired if LF hadn´t carried out his "rescue" plan, which Sansa was totally unaware of.

I think Sansa was just what she appears to be: A pawn in another ones scheme.

[Frey family reunion]

35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don’t think she appreciates the significance of the hairnet, until afterwards.

I would not hold it against Sansa if she knowingly collaborated in Joffrey’s death, however.

It’s from her POV that we’re given the belief that she was an unwitting accomplice.  I think GRRM is intentionally taking advantage of the POV as an unreliable narrator.  I think we’re given at least the possibility that the enormity of her actions caused her to repress what she did.  I’ll address that near the end.

Edited February 2 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

34 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

An interesting proposition to explore indeed! I guess I assumed it was all planned by Lady Olenna to protect her dear Margaery, and I don't think she minded one bit that she was risking Sansa's life to do it.

I really appreciated you pointing out the symbolic nature of the cloud castles and I agree with your interpretation whole heartedly! I look forward to reading part 2!

Thanks, I hope you’ll continue to find it interesting.  

[Craving Peaches]

I'm not sure why Sansa would hide this from herself though. When she was considering pushing Joffrey off a walkway she didn't hide her consideration of killing him.

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The outer parapet came up to her chin, but along the inner edge of the walk was nothing, nothing but a long plunge to the bailey seventy or eighty feet below. All it would take was a shove, she told herself. He was standing right there, right there, smirking at her with those fat wormlips. You could do it, she told herself. You could. Do it right now. It wouldn't even matter if she went over with him. It wouldn't matter at all.

After this I'd be confused why she would repress what she'd done to kill Joffrey in her later point of view chapters.

[Frey family reunion]

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure why Sansa would hide this from herself though. When she was considering pushing Joffrey off a walkway she didn't hide her consideration of killing him.

After this I'd be confused why she would repress what she'd done to kill Joffrey in her later point of view chapters.

I think the simple answer is that it’s one thing to think about killing someone, it’s another thing to have actually done it. 

[Frey family reunion]

But on to part 2:  The Amethyst Necklace and the Strangler.  

So, I’ve mulled this possibility over before, but my issue was always with how Petyr knew that Olenna had adjusted Sansa’s hair net if in fact Olenna didn’t take the poison from Sansa.  In my mind, either Olenna took the poison from the hair net, or Sansa was the one who took the hair net from the poison.  

One possibility never crossed my mind until recently:  Perhaps Sansa didn’t bring the poison into the wedding in her hair net, but instead Olenna brought the poison and gave it to Sansa by replacing one of her amethysts with the poison.  That’s when everything fell into place.

So let’s start by taking a close look at the poison the Strangler, in it’s crystallized form:

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On the bottom shelf behind a row of salves in squat clay jars he found a vial of indigo glass, no larger than his little finger.  It rattled when he shook it.  Cressen blew away a layer of dust and carried it back to his table. Collapsing in his chair, he pulled the stopper and spilled out the vial’s contents.  A dozen crystals, no larger than seeds, rattled across the parchment he’d been reading.  They shown like jewels in the candlelight, so purple that the maester found himself thinking that he had never truly seen the color before.

We’re even told how they’re made:

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It was made from a certain plant that grew only on the islands of the Jade Sea, half a world away.  The leaves had to be aged, and soaked in a  wash of limes and sugar water and certain rare spices from the Summer Isles.  Afterward they could be discarded, but the potion must be thickened with ash and allowed to crystallize.  The process was slow and difficult, the necessaries costly and hard to acquire.

This reminded me a little of making salt crystals.  Putting minerals in a liquid solution ultimately producing crystals from the mineral.

Superficially salt crystals look like a crystal rock formation, but obviously they’re not as hard and can be easily crushed or broken.

The fact that the Strangler can be dissolved in wine makes me think they are something like salt crystals.  Perhaps they appear to be an amethyst but unlike amethysts they can easily be broken or crushed.

So I looked to see how Maester Cressen handled his:

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The chain around his throat felt very heavy. He touched one of the crystals lightly with the tip of his little finger. Such a small thing to hold the power of life and death.

My guess is that Maester Cressen touches the crystal lightly so as not to break or crush the crystal. 

So now I think about the amethyst hair net and try and decide if it realistically is a hair net full of Strangler poisons.  Would the plotters have given such a thing to Sansa without her knowing the true nature of the crystals?  

What would happen if she handles them like one would handle a rock hard gemstone?  Or perhaps if someone else handles the crystals?  Like for instance Shae:

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Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears. Sansa wore a gown of silvery satin trimmed in vair, with dagged sleeves that almost touched the floor, lined in soft purple felt. Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones.

So now that’s someone completely out of the loop who could reasonably be expected to have handled Sansa’s hair net.  Would Strangler crystals have maintained their illusion under such manipulation?

Or perhaps a better question, could the conspirators have reasonably relied on it?

After all, the Strangler crystals are probably rarer and costlier than purple amethysts, even purple amethysts from Asshai.  And certainly harder to replace.  

They’re also extremely incriminating.  Could you trust drunk Dontos and then unwitting Sansa with them?  

All so you can just get the poison to Olenna at the wedding?  If you trust Olenna enough to tell her about the poison, wouldn’t you just trust her enough to give it to her in the first place?  Why the unnecessary “middle-man” in Sansa?

And finally why so much poison?  Seems like an unnecessary bit of overkill.

But of course the possibility is that the hair net was always what Dontos claimed it was.  It was truly deep purple amethysts, not poison.  The magic in the hair net was the fact that the amethysts looked just like the poison.

So if you wanted to pass someone poison, someone who was in the best position to poison the intended target, you replace one of the amethysts in the hair net with the poison.  Which is what I think happened.

Olenna was the one who brought the poison to the wedding and gave it to Sansa by replacing one of the stones with the poison.  Even emphasizing to Sansa as she did it that she might be going to Highgarden soon:

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“You do look quite exquisite, child,” Lady Olenna Tyrell told Sansa when she tottered up to them in a cloth-of-gold gown that must have weighed more than she did. “The wind has been at your hair, though.” The little old woman reached up and fussed at the loose strands, tucking them back into place and straightening Sansa’s hair net. “I was very sorry to hear about your losses,” she said as she tugged and fiddled. “Your brother was a terrible traitor, I know, but if we start killing men at weddings they’ll be even more frightened of marriage than they are presently. There, that’s better.” Lady Olenna smiled. “I am pleased to say I shall be leaving for Highgarden the day after next. I have had quite enough of this smelly city, thank you. Perhaps you would like to accompany me for a little visit, whilst the men are off having their war? I shall miss my Margaery so dreadfully, and all her lovely ladies. Your company would be such sweet solace.”

It’s fairly brilliant.  As she gives Sansa the poison, she reminds Sansa of the Lannisters’ killing of her brother and of her promise of taking her to Highgarden.  The same place where she had earlier talked to Sansa of marrying her to Willas.  

And then there is this:

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“Myself as well. Seventy-seven courses, I daresay. Don’t you find that a bit excessive, my lord? I shan’t eat more than three or four bites myself, but you and I are very little, aren’t we?” She patted Sansa’s hair again and said, “Well, off with you, child, and try to be merrier.”

Wicked really.  She pats Sansa on the head, reminding her of what she placed there while talking about all the food that Tyrion is going to eat.

And yes, when the food starts to be served, look what Sansa does:

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The first dish was a creamy soup of mushrooms and buttered snails, served in gilded bowls….  Sansa tasted a spoonful of the soup and pushed the bowl away.  “Not to your liking, my lady?”  Tyrion asked. 
            “There’s to be so much, my lord. I have a little tummy.” She fiddled nervously with her hair and looked down the table to where Joffrey sat with his Tyrell queen.”

Tyrion just notices Sansa fiddling with her hair, I think that’s when Sansa was retrieving the poison given to her by Olenna.  She gets it when the food starts to be served.  Because that’s when the poisoning is to take place.  To make it look like the victim is choking on their food:

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Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man’s throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim’s face turned as  purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

I’m assuming you can see now who I think the intended target really was.  I think Tyrion was the intended target of both Olenna and Littlefinger.  But more on that in part 3, the Olenna Littlefinger conspiracy.

Edited February 2 by Frey family reunion

[Aebram]

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 I think GRRM is intentionally taking advantage of the POV as an unreliable narrator.

This, I think, is the key to your theory. We've seen plenty of unreliable witnesses: characters sometimes hear or read things that turn out not to be true.  But a character being unreliable in their own thoughts? That's a horse of a different color, or at least of a different size. So much of the story is told through characters thoughts; if we can't trust those, it casts doubt on large amounts of what we think we know.

However, I have noticed a couple of other places in the story where a character's thoughts are, if not wrong, at least curiously vague or absent. Interestingly, they are both related to Joffrey's death, and they both involve Tyrion. One is just after Joffrey dies, when Tyrion pours out the remaining wine from Joffrey's cup (Storm 60). We have no idea why he did this.

The other odd gap is when Jaime is helping him escape from the dungeon (Storm 77), and in a moment of anger, Tyrion says that he killed joffrey. A few moments later, he feels some regret about that, and "part of him wanted to call out, to tell him that it wasn’t true, to beg for his forgiveness."  But it's not clear whether  it actually was a lie.

So there is some precedent for characters who suppress, or simply fail to think about, unpleasant facts involving their own involvement in an important event. There certainly are a lot of unanswered questions about what happened at that wedding.

[Alma11]

I don't know, I understand your point and it'd be interesting if Joffrey died for an unfortunate coincidence and the real target was Tyrion, but why Oleanna would want Tyrion dead? To make Sansa a widow and take control of Winterfell, you'd say. And it would make sense. But why make her run away with Littlefinger, then? If Oleanna wanted to wed Sansa to her nephew, why let her escape? Unless Littlefinger betrayed her and, without her knowing, instructed Dontos to take Sansa away. But if this was indeed the original plan, what Oleanna would get to give Sansa to Littlefinger and let him wed her to a noble of the Vale? Besides, it would have been risky to kill Tyrion anyway, because then Tywin could have married her to another Lannister man before Oleanna could carry out her plan.

[Melifeather]

The text supports that Lady Olenna procured the hairnet to kill Joffrey. The interview she had with Sansa to get the scoop on the real Joffrey and the motivation to protect her granddaughter are pretty straightforward. She also has the money to buy such a hairnet. Her tugging and fiddling is our clue that she was struggling to remove one of the stones. I think every stone on the hairnet was a purple Strangler stone.

It's also quite clear that Littlefinger arranged for the purchase, because Sansa received it from Ser Dontos who was hired by Littlefinger to be the go between.

I think Sansa had more reasons to want to kill Joffrey than Tyrion. Joffrey tormented her and had her father beheaded. What did Tyrion ever do to Sansa other than be physically ugly to warrant a desire to murder him? I do acknowledge that the cloud castles that Sansa saw are a projection of her internal feelings. 

I don't think Sansa even knew the hairnet had poisonous Strangler stones. Here are her thoughts:

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa V

When she pulled it free, her long auburn hair cascaded down her back and across her shoulders. The web of spun silver hung from her fingers, the fine metal glimmering softly, the stones black in the moonlight. Black amethysts from Asshai. One of them was missing. Sansa lifted the net for a closer look. There was a dark smudge in the silver socket where the stone had fallen out.

A sudden terror filled her. Her heart hammered against her ribs, and for an instant she held her breath. Why am I so scared, it's only an amethyst, a black amethyst from Asshai, no more than that. It must have been loose in the setting, that's all. It was loose and it fell out, and now it's lying somewhere in the throne room, or in the yard, unless . . .

Ser Dontos had said the hair net was magic, that it would take her home. He told her she must wear it tonight at Joffrey's wedding feast. The silver wire stretched tight across her knuckles. Her thumb rubbed back and forth against the hole where the stone had been. She tried to stop, but her fingers were not her own. Her thumb was drawn to the hole as the tongue is drawn to a missing tooth. What kind of magic? The king was dead, the cruel king who had been her gallant prince a thousand years ago. If Dontos had lied about the hair net, had he lied about the rest as well? What if he never comes? What if there is no ship, no boat on the river, no escape? What would happen to her then?

 

Sansa thinks the stones are black amethysts from Asshai, that Dontos told her the hair net was magic, and she worried that Dontos had lied to her. That doesn't sound like someone that knew what the hairnet's purpose truly was.

 

Edited February 4 by Melifeather

[LynnS]

On 2/2/2024 at 11:09 AM, Frey family reunion said:

The imagery is that the sky goes from grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold.  It goes from the Stark color to the Lannister color.  And what had once been two separate castles turns to one, as House Lannister consumes House Stark through her marriage to Tyrion.

This is an interesting interpretation.  I've been intrigued by this passage for a while:

On 2/2/2024 at 11:09 AM, Frey family reunion said:

She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. 

Followed by:

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She heard the door open as her maids brought the hot water for her bath. They were both new to her service; Tyrion said the women who'd tended to her previously had all been Cersei's spies, just as Sansa had always suspected. "Come see," she told them. "There's a castle in the sky."

This certainly puts me in mind of her next destination... an actual castle in the sky.  I don't know if this supports your premise; that she knew more about what would happen than she lets on; but it's her dream-like state is a flag of sorts to me.  

Yes, this one seems have one or two of those dried red swimming things poking around.  Nice OP FFR.  Thanks for putting it up.

[Aebram]

On 2/2/2024 at 9:35 PM, Alma11 said:

If Oleanna wanted to wed Sansa to her nephew, why let her escape? Unless Littlefinger betrayed her and, without her knowing, instructed Dontos to take Sansa away.

I think you've answered your own question. I see two possible scenarios.

Either: Olenna enlisted Littlefinger in her murder plot. He arranged for Dontos to give the hair net to Sansa. But unknown to Olenna, he also arranged for Dontos to bring Sansa to him.

Or: Olenna enlisted Dontos directly (or more likely, through some underling). But Littlefinger found out about her plan through his network of spies; and he arranged a side deal with Dontos to bring Sansa to him.

Interestingly, for both of these scenarios, it doesn't matter whether Olenna wanted to kill Tyrion or Joffrey. Either way is possible.

I lean slightly in favor of the second scenario, because in that case, Olenna has no idea that Littlefinger was involved at all. Only Dontos knew, and he's dead now. I keep remembering some comments Littlefinger made about how chaos can be useful, and how he likes to keep people confused about his true intentions ...

[John Suburbs]

On 2/2/2024 at 11:09 AM, Frey family reunion said:

To start out this is not a “Stark hate thread”.  In fact I think it’s just the opposite.  It’s an in depth and psychological look at perhaps GRRM’s most interesting protagonist in the book, Sansa.  If you give this topic a chance I think you’ll come away with the takeaway that Sansa isn’t necessarily the helpless victim she appears simply being swept up in the machinations of others, but instead a complex, sympathetic character who is starting to exert her own will which I believe started at Joffrey’s wedding.  I’m going to address this in a number of posts, so hopefully you will be patient.  And yes I will address the fact that she does not acknowledge her part of Joffrey’s death in her POV.  In fact I think specifically, GRRM gives us the exact moment when she represses what she has done.  But first…

Part I.  Sansa’s motivation, her fear at being turned from a Stark into a Lannister.

We’re given her motivation in the chapter immediately preceding Joffrey’s wedding.  And it’s a fairly understandable issue.  After her marriage to Tyrion, Sansa is rightly terrified of the idea that she is being turned from a Stark into a Lannister.

We’re given the imagery early on in the chapter:

The imagery is that the sky goes from grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold.  It goes from the Stark color to the Lannister color.  And what had once been two separate castles turns to one, as House Lannister consumes House Stark through her marriage to Tyrion.

But we quickly move from imagery to reality as Sansa mulls Joffrey’s upcoming wedding:

It’s a thought that makes her shiver in her hot bath.

Then Sansa conjures up Robb as she thinks about what the day will bring:

I don’t think she’s hoping to summon up Robb’s courage just to make small talk with the nobles, I think she realizes what a momentous day is in store and the risk she is going to be required to take.  In fact we know that to be the case:

So the question is, just how much does she know about what is supposed to transpire at Joffrey’s wedding, and what exactly is her part supposed to be, a part that requires her to try and summon her warrior brother’s courage.

Specifically, what’s her understanding of the significance of the amethyst hairnet she was given and how that will allow her justice and freedom from the Lannisters.

And Part 2 is going to be all about the amethyst hairnet.  It’s when I realized that the hairnet she was given by Dontos was in fact truly what it was said to be, a hairnet of deep purple amethyst crystals is when this theory fell into place for me.

Lady Olenna was the poisoner, all by herself. She was right where the pie was just before it was served.

If Sansa was the poisoner then there was no reason why Lady O should have fiddled with the hairnet. There was no wind that day, and the whole purpose of a hairnet is to keep the hair in place even if the wind is blowing. So it would have taken quite a gust to knock it loose, completely unnoticed by everyone.

[Frey family reunion]

Part 3: The Conspiracy.

I think I need to begin with the conversation Littlefinger had with Sansa back in the Vale.  Because that’s the conversation where it seems certain that Olenna was the poisoner of Joffrey, after all Littlefinger says so, and who are we to doubt Littlefinger?

The conversation over Joffrey’s “true” poisoner begins on an interesting note, Littlefinger goes over the cover story of Sansa’s new identity and …

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“Do you think you can remember all that?”
      “I hope. It will be like playing a game, won’t it?”
        “Are you fond of games, Alayne?”
         The new name would take some getting used to. “Games? I … I suppose it would depend …”

Sansa’s cut off when the fruits are served.  But the conversation resumes and Sansa brings up her theory that Littlefinger had Ser Dontos poison Joffrey.  

I think at this point Littlefinger thinks Sansa is playing her own game, figure out someone to lay the blame on Joffrey’s death.  And Littlefinger is happy to play along.  The premise of this game, is keeping one’s hands clean, make sure there is no blood on them.  Something that is highlighted in the imagery of the food eaten during this conversation:

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Petyr cut a pomegranate in two with his dagger, offering half to Sansa. “You should try and eat, my lady.” 

“Thank you, my lord.” Pomegranate seeds were so messy; Sansa chose a pear instead, and took a small delicate bite. It was very ripe. The juice ran down her chin.

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“Did I say that?” Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger and offered half to Sansa. “The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme … and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him.” He tilted his chin back and squeezed the blood orange, so the juice ran down into his mouth. “I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers,” he complained, wiping his hands.”  “Clean hands, Sansa.  Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean.”
            Sansa spooned up some juice from her own orange.

That’s when Petyr suggests that Olenna is the one who poisoned Joffrey.  In the midst of a game where both participants are very conscious of keeping their hands clean.

So now let’s start with both Olenna and Littlefinger’s motive for killing Joffrey, and then look and see if both would have had any motives for killing anyone else.

Littlefinger provides a very compelling motive for Olenna wanting to kill Joffrey.  She doesn’t want her granddaughter married to the abusive Joffrey and she feels that Loras would end up killing Joffrey.  I can’t argue with the motive that Petyr paints.  It’s a good one.  

Then Petyr provides how he helped things along.  And that’s when things get a bit complicated.  Petyr suggests that he just had his men provide rumors and stories about what a monster Joffrey was, and then subtly laid the groundwork for Ser Lora to join the Kingsguard.  And apparently Olenna does the rest.

Here’s where things start to ring false to me.  First off, why would Littlefinger risk torpedoing the marriage between Margaery and Joffrey before it happens?  It’s this alliance that gives Petyr his reward and frees up Sansa for his plans for her.  

Also, what Littlefinger leaves out is how he knew Olenna adjusted Sansa’s hair net and how he could be so convinced that Olenna was going to poison someone at the wedding that he had his ship parked out ready to smuggle Sansa out of King’s Landing.

That’s more than just laying the groundwork and letting Olenna take matters into her own hands.  That shows that there was a level of coordination between Petyr and Olenna, or Petyr’s catspaw Dontos and Olenna.

So either 1. Olenna brought the hairnet to Dontos and instructed him to give it to Sansa to bring to the wedding, and Petyr got wind of this or 2. Petyr or Dontos simply told Olenna that she could get poison from Sansa’s hairnet at the wedding, and they were convinced that she would use it to poison someone.  3.  Or the entire plan was coordinated by both Olenna and Petyr ahead of time.

My problem with the first scenario  is that it seems unnecessarily risky and overly complicated.  If Olenna was planning on poisoning Joffrey herself, then why take the risk to give the poison to Ser Dontos, and have him give it to Sansa, only to take it back at the wedding.  Why not just have Olenna bring it herself and avoid having two other persons with knowledge of you as the poisoner?  Or the poison being lost, or stolen etc. etc.  

My problem with the second scenario, is that why would Olenna trust Dontos or Petyr and take poison being offered from them?  Especially if your plan is to murder a King and you didn’t want anyone to know.   Why would Olenna take such a risk?  In fact the whole thing would seem like a bit of a set up.

So that’s why I think almost certainly, this plan, concerning poison, hairnets and the wedding was coordinated between Olenna and Petyr.  That’s the only logical conclusion why Petyr would know that Olenna would know the significance of Sansa’s hair net and Petyr would be so certain that the poisoning would happen at the wedding, where the distraction would allow Sansa to escape.  

So the question remains, would either party trust each other to plot the killing of a King?  And how exactly does Petyr benefit from Joffrey’s death?  The simple answer to the second question is that Petyr doesn’t benefit.  He’s already shown that he can manipulate Joffrey, and Joffrey’s death only puts the Throne to Tommen which in reality puts Tywin in complete control of the Throne as regent.  Tywin isn’t someone that is easily manipulated.  I will concede that Petyr does have one possible motive to kill Joffrey, revenge for how Joffrey treated Sansa.  So does that trump what Petyr loses in having Joffrey killed?

But the more important question is the first, would Petyr and Olenna trust each other enough to plot the killing of a king?  I’m not so sure that they would.  Instead, could they have both agreed on a less risky target at the wedding, someone that both would have a motive to kill?

So now let’s talk about their motives to kill Tyrion.  Both of them have a very similar motive to kill Tyrion.  He’s married to Sansa.  And both have plans for Sansa that do not involve her being married.  

Olenna wishes to marry her to her Willas.  And Sansa is quite a prize even before Robb’s death.  She’s the daughter of one of the Great Houses, a House that unlike the Tyrell’s can trace their roots back to actual Kings.  She’s certainly a prestigious pride for a House that is looking to increase their reputation.  And when her brothers die then she becomes much more valuable, she becomes  the key to inheriting Winterfell on top of Highgarden.  So the same reason that the Lannisters covet Sansa would be the reason why Olenna would covet Sansa.  And all it takes is killing the unpopular dwarf who is looked down upon by all the nobles.

And of course Petyr has the same motive for killing Tyrion as well. He wants Sansa freed up for his own plans for her in the Vale.  And he absolutely hates Tyrion and has already tried to have him killed once before.  

So it’s not a stretch that Sansa would be brought up in Petyr’s negotiations with Olenna as an added bonus to get the Tyrell’s to marry Margaery to Joffrey.  Both had to know that the Lannisters would keep a hold of Sansa even after Joffrey and Margaerys are wed, and the way they would keep hold of her is marry her to a Lannister.  And Tyrion is the obvious choice.  

So would Olenna and Petyr dare plot together to murder Tyrion?  I think that’s something they would dare to do.  And if Tyrion was the target, then the that brings me back to my original question, who would be in the best position to poison him at the wedding?

This part has already gone too long and I’m chomping at the bit to get to the next part.  The wedding.   Which answers a number of questions, such as why Petyr brought the Tyrell’s plan to bring Sansa to Highgarden to the Lannisters, why did Petyr really suggested the jousting dwarves, and why it was so significant that Sansa realizes that Ser Illyn no longer has Ice.

 

 

 

Edited February 5 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

47 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lady Olenna was the poisoner, all by herself. She was right where the pie was just before it was served.

If Sansa was the poisoner then there was no reason why Lady O should have fiddled with the hairnet. There was no wind that day, and the whole purpose of a hairnet is to keep the hair in place even if the wind is blowing. So it would have taken quite a gust to knock it loose, completely unnoticed by everyone.

You apparently didn’t read part 2 of my post.  The reason that Olenna fiddles with Sansa’s hairnet is to substitute one of the gems with poison.  The hairnet itself was just as it claimed to be, a hairnet with amethysts.  Olenna’ a role was to get the poison to Sansa, who was in the best position to poison Tyrion.  So Olenna fiddles with Sansa’s hairnet, reminds Sansa of her brother’s murder at the Red Wedding, of her promise to take her to Highgarden and reminds her of all the food that Tyrion is going to eat.  And substitutes one of the amethysts with the poison.

Then when the courses are being served, Sansa fiddles with the hairnet as well.  That’s when Sansa would have removed the Strangler crystal Olenna placed there.  She was getting ready to poison Tyrion.  

The real question in my mind is whether Sansa was able to make herself try and poison Tyrion?  That’s Part IV.

 

Edited February 5 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/4/2024 at 10:33 AM, Melifeather said:

I think every stone on the hairnet was a purple Strangler stone.

But why so much poison if you were just looking to kill one person?

And could the Strangler crystals, which could be dissolved in wine be able to maintain the illusion of being real gemstones for any length of time?  Especially when they would be handled not just be Sansa but by her maids as well?  Such as Shae did.  Is there a reason that Cressen touched his crystal so lightly?  Perhaps not to crush it.  

The more I thought about it, the more I became convinced that the hairnet was actual amethysts.  Their magic lay in the fact that they looked like the Strangler crystal, to allow it to be substituted later when the time was right.

On 2/4/2024 at 10:33 AM, Melifeather said:

It's also quite clear that Littlefinger arranged for the purchase, because Sansa received it from Ser Dontos who was hired by Littlefinger to be the go between.

My theory assumes that there was a coordination between Littlefinger and Olenna, so either one of them could have originally purchased the hairnet.  Littlefinger’s job was to get the hairnet to Sansa and have her wear it at the wedding.  Olenna’s job was to bring the poison to the wedding and give it to Sansa.

On 2/4/2024 at 10:33 AM, Melifeather said:

I think Sansa had more reasons to want to kill Joffrey than Tyrion. Joffrey tormented her and had her father beheaded. What did Tyrion ever do to Sansa other than be physically ugly to warrant a desire to murder him? I do acknowledge that the cloud castles that Sansa saw are a projection of her internal feelings. 

That’s actually the main topic for my next part, who did Sansa actually try and poison?  The reason that she would go along with a plot to poison Tyrion is that it frees her from a marriage with a Lannister.  And that’s her greatest fear, that she’s being turned into a Lannister.  The only way to truly free herself from that and marry someone of her choice (like a Tyrell) is to make sure Tyrion dies.  

But like you said, I don’t think she truly hates Tyrion.  She on the other hand truly hates Joffrey.  So when push comes to shove can she bring herself to poison Tyrion?  And ultimately does she change course and target Joffrey when he presents her with the opportunity.

Edited February 5 by Frey family reunion

[Melifeather]

Mayhaps a thorough examination of Petyr's motives would be helpful. I think Petyr wants power, but he understands that his birth status is too low to garner enough support to place himself on the throne so his motive is to develop a pawn, namely Sansa. She's beautiful - she looks like her mother who Petyr loved in his youth. She's highborn and can garner support of the Northern and Riverland houses. She's young which he believes makes her naive and easily manipulated. But he also thinks she'll be his willing pupil if he gives her "enough".

Keeping all of the above in mind, let's return to your posit that Petyr shouldn't have had a motive or benefit for killing Joffrey. I think that assumption is incorrect. Killing Joffrey causes a power struggle. It creates chaos and alliances are disrupted. It creates opportunities for new deals to be struck with new allies.

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Keeping all of the above in mind, let's return to your posit that Petyr shouldn't have had a motive or benefit for killing Joffrey. I think that assumption is incorrect. Killing Joffrey causes a power struggle. It creates chaos and alliances are disrupted. It creates opportunities for new deals to be struck with new allies.

Actually killing Joffrey didn’t create a power struggle.  If anything it lessened the chaos.  Because Tommen becomes King and Tywin becomes the regent.  So nothing about the power dynamics changes, Joffrey’s death just puts Tywin firmly in charged and Tywin is someone that is not easily manipulated.  (Unlike Joffrey).

What caused the chaos was Tywin’s murder.  That’s when Cersei became regent.  While Petyr acts like this was his idea, he really had nothing to do with this.

Tyrion killed Tywin (or perhaps Oberyn poisoned him.). Either way, this wasn’t something that Petyr can claim credit for.

Edited February 6 by Frey family reunion