SeanF

Daenerys acts like Aenys I, throughout most of ADWD, when she ought to be acting like Machiavelli’s Prince. The Prince is not, as is often supposed, a handbook to being evil, but a handbook to being pragmatic. Be cruel, when you have to be cruel, and be merciful when it’s politic to be merciful.

I find much to like about ADWD. The frustration is with building up to a pay-off, which never arrives, and seemingly, never will arrive. Martin ought to have written a short novel, like Tad Williams’ The Heart of What was Lost, to wrap up ADWD.

For sure. Somehow, we’ve finished up ruled by people (whether they are right or left wing), who treat the people they govern with complete contempt. In the UK, we see that with one scandal, after another. Whether it’s the Post Office, or grooming gangs, or Hillsborough, or blood plasma, what comes through over again from people at the top is they do not care. The public are a nuisance.

Yes, I get that, but the world that Martin has created, is not one where playing nice gets you anything other than an early grave. For me, Dany’s story only came alive in her last two chapters.

I think that Daenerys' story in ADWD could have been told in half the number of words, giving room for the Battle of Meereen to take place.

Palestine Action are some of Putin's little helpers.

It’s incredibly rare for the same leader to be good at war, and good at handling peacetime problems. Napoleon managed it, but I can think of few others. It’s why Churchill was voted out in 1945.

I guess it's meant to be seen as a moral downfall, and yet I've always read her compromising with the slavers as her losing her way, the events in Daznak's Pit as a wake-up call, and bringing the masters fire and blood as being very much the right thing to do. Adam Feldman may say it will mean “more Astapors and more Hazzeas”, but the slave trade generates a mountain of Astapors and Hazzeas. It’s not a choice between violence and peace, but rather, a choice between different forms of violence. The same way, I’ve always seen Jon’s agonising over his NW vows as dithering, and really, he should have gone all in, against the Boltons, from the outset.

ADWD is like sitting through some massive firework display, which ends, just before the final climactic burst.

I would certainly agree with you about shifting attitudes towards Tyrion. The show does cast a shadow over the books, even if one treats them as separate continuities. I think more of the fandom expect the ending to be cynical and grimdark, rather than bittersweet.

So many of the relationships are coercive and/or manipulative, or just gross. Daenerys' story is full of squick. Illyrio is morbidly obese, and buys a teenage sex slave who looks like her, to get her out of his system. Jorah leers over her like a vampire, and sexually assaults her at one point. Kraznys fantasises about their licking honey off each other's breasts. Daario constantly makes lewd remarks at her. Views obviously differ about her marriage to Drogo. Tyrion hits Shae, keeps her as a virtual prisoner, and finally strangles her. He's annoyed that Sansa won't put out for him, and barely refrains from raping her. Later, he will threaten to murder one bed slave, and rape another. Sansa, like Daenerys, is surrounded by men ogling her hot, barely-pubescent body, or trying to force themselves on her. "Daddy" makes her French-kiss him. Ramsay is his own nightmare. Lysa remembers Jon Arryn's cheesy, old man's breath, going down her throat. And, so it goes on.

I’m never not going to gag a bit, however, at 13 year old Dany’s learning “pillow tricks”, or 12 year old Sansa contemplating Tyrion’s ugly manhood.

Yes, a lot of people thought Martin was writing in a kind of code, that only the cognoscenti could discern. He has mysteries and secrets, but in general, I think he’s a pretty straightforward writer. i find that my attitude towards war, in the books, has changed quite a bit, probably due to my doing a Masters in Military History, and the conflict in Ukraine. It’s just a fact of life, in this world, and it’s plain to me that some wars are worth fighting.

There is a semi-canon timeline that has Dany I (AGOT), being the first chapter chronologically, and her final chapter in ADWD being the last. She is 12 years, 11 months at the start, 16 years, 3 months at the end.

I truly don’t see this as a story in which a villain is just a hero from the other side’s POV. I do think the author writes from the viewpoint that the Starks are right, and those who oppose them are wrong. It doesn’t matter if the Others are evil, in human terms. They are a danger. We can only speculate why Martin cannot finish the series, but I do wonder if a part of it is the difficulty inherent in critiquing a world in which feudal overlords and slave owners wield absolute power, at the same time as wishing to give the final victory to a family of feudal overlords.

I imagine that the Others have more agency, and greater magical ability, than orcs do, but otherwise, I don't think the comparison is a bad one. From what we see of characters like Ugluk, Shagrat, Gorbag, they are not very pleasant, but they are clearly rational beings, with reasons for the way that they behave, competent soldiers, and part of a fairly complex civilisation.

WRT Abercrombie, I shall never not laugh at: ”Apologise! Apologise to my fucking dice!”

I always liked the dilemma that Glen Cook posed in The Black Company series. Who do you fight for if it's a choice between Sauron or Morgoth? (The answer is, Sauron.)

The Others are essentially copies of the Norns, from Memory, Sorrow, Thorn. And, yes, the Norns have their reasons for being as they are. And, they are a mix of the good, bad, and indifferent. But, their society is a completely, f*cked up, slave-owning, raping, horror show, and they really are a danger towards humans.

Walder violates every social and ethical norm, in his world. Robb’s wound to Walder’s pride does not come to close to justifying treason towards guests, treason towards liege lord, and blasphemy. The Red Wedding is seen in-universe, as an act of monstrous evil. The Sparrows preach against the Freys, and everyone enjoys killing them in creative ways. To their contemporaries, the Freys are pure evil.

There are quite a large number of people however, who are presented as being irredeemably wicked. Ser Gregor Clegane, and most who serve him, the Brave Companions, Ser Amory Lorch. Walder Frey, and most of his issue; Ramsay and Roose Bolton; most of the Eastern slaver nobility. Tywin Lannister, Euron Greyjoy, and Littlefinger. And, that only scratches the surface. The Others doubtless have reasons for what they do. But, that does not mean they can necessarily be bargained with.

Sometimes, diversity in books/films can come over as jarring and anachronistic (eg black Ann Boleyn), but there’s nothing jarring about one lesbian couple in a fantasy Europe setting.

That's a strange complaint. IIRC there's only one same-sex relationship in the book. And, I thought they were quite sweet together. I can't say there's a surfeit of same-sex relationships generally in his tales. There's Terez/Shalere, Shev and Carcolf, Jappo Murcatto, and Leo Dan Brock is repressed, but that's it.

I did wonder similarly, watching Dune, in a cinema, in a town where 40% are Muslims. I wonder if there are parallels with TFL, where Khalul is at least as evil as Bayaz, but some of the Eaters are somewhat sympathetic, trapped into a life that they hate.

Is it his best book? No. But I found it immense fun. My feeling is that some of the fandom are only satisfied when every decent character dies, or else gets revealed as being a piece of shit, in reality.