Sandy Clegg

Out with the old, in with the new, I say! I think the problem is that people like BryndenFish etc went as far as they could with extrapolating theories from the ‘surface’ plot. At which point there probably is not much more to uncover. Then we had @LmL and the new wave of symbolism explainers who forged a path for exciting new ways to read the books. I think the time may be right for a third wave, and I strongly feel that examining the wordplay and ‘game-like’ aspects of the books can open up a ton of new theorising. But like I always say, I’m an optimist. It all stems from a love of George’s writing and admiration for what he’s achieved. The layers he has put into the books are incredible and I still believe that he has kept his ability to stay three steps ahead of us at all times. these books have only just begun to give up their secrets.

A really short post this, as I just want to get discussion going. I think there are a number of people on this forum who are already familiar with this concept, but hands and feet often seem to be used as metaphors/symbols for the mind/soul/spirit, or however you wish to describe that part of someone like Bran which is able to 'enter' another's body as a skin changer, or a wolf as a warg. This metaphor is made pretty explicit by GRRM in A Storm of Swords, in this Bran scene: This harks back to Bran's climbing scene in AGOT, where he likens feet to hands: Feet into boots, feet as hands, feet and hands being used interchangeably as metaphors for the skinchanger mind/soul. Boots as a metaphor for the body which is being controlled by a skinchanger. Then we get this scene from The Hedge Knight This metaphor is continued in the most recent novel's prologue: So, if we assume that George has had this conceit in mind since the first book, and it continues to be relevant, then how does that affect our reading of this scene between King Robert and Ned: I'm not going to give my thoughts here, I'm genuinely interested in what you all think about this, and how it could be interpreted.

This is really the single biggest schism in fandom, and I doubt it will ever be resolved until the last book is published. Personally, I'd say Byzantine doesn't go far enough. Winds and Dream are going to be mind-bending and I can't wait.

OK, here's an attempt to appease all the folks on this thread. There is some nice thematic weaving here if Lemore is at the same time: a) a symbolic Catelyn (post-death) and b) the actual Ashara Dayne, living a new life in Essos Ashara was essentially Catelyn's only rival for Ned's affections, or so she believed. The 'other woman' in his life. Having Lemore represent them both is a sweet moment of poetry.

That's a good point, FFR. I think I like Rickon for this - he is one of the dark horses of the series, and although he's very, very young this doesn't mean he can't exhibit agency through warg powers, for example. This is what I like about these symbolic proxies. All sorts of hitherto unexamined links and foreshadowings can come into play once we see Lemore as a LH stand-in. I'm struggling to get anywhere with the ones hidden in Quentyn's chapters, though. I can spot them, but I'm damned if I can work them out. As the books progress, George seems to bury the links a little deeper than before. Just like any game, there's a ramp up in the difficulty. Might need to crowd-source some help!

Side note: I love this word but I don't know anyone who can pronounce it correctly, including me.

With all the history of the Blackfyre's I'd say vengeance is certainly somewhere 'in the mix' in their motivations, sure. Lemore herself seems kind of chill, though. I don't get any strong thematic vibes from her, revenge or otherwise. Maybe as my read-through continues.

Another fun one. In Jon Conningtom's chapter we meet the Golden Company's spymaster, Lysono Maar, who is essentially the answer to 'what if Dany was a male sellsword? ....' Heavy Dany symbolism. And who is Dany? One of her many titles = Slayer of Lies. Lies are killed. Lies are no more. Lysono Maar.

It's all good. In 99/100 threads with the name Lemore in the title you'd be absolutely right. I'm just an oddball trying to get people to join him in his journey of insanity

Hi @sweetsunray these are all great points and I love all your theories, but my OP wasn't really trying to dig into her actual in-universe identity. I was just trying to dig into an example of the "games-within-the-text" that George plays with readers. Maybe I need to do a separate post to articulate what I'm trying to do here - but essentially I sense that a big part of the books that gets overlooked is their function as 'interactive fiction'. There's a whole lot of fun to be had - that I think George intends us to have - by reading the books slightly differently, and I want to encourage others to find these fun aspects too.

Connotations are not necessarily relevant in wordplay. A crystal = a mineral = a stone. If it's a good enough synonym to be used in a crossword, then it should be good enough for George. Also, I don't think we should expect him to be anything other than subtle in his games. He's on the record as saying as much himself. So unless you want a character to hang a literal stone or pebble between their breasts, then this is the most plausible in-world representation of having a character with a 'stone' near their 'heart'. I suspect the deeper issue here is a refusal to see that a game is in fact being played between author and reader.

The problem with Ashara Dayne is that she isn't really a character we've met yet in the story so we know very little about her apart from second-hand sources. I'd say these points above might relate more to theories about who she is in-universe, which I don't have really an opinion about, unless there's an argument to made for her being a kind of Maiden-Mother-and-Crone archetype. Lemore, Ashara & Cat all in one? But we also need to consider the delicious irony that it is Tyrion who has all these lustful thoughts about Lemore, considering his troubled relationship with Catelyn in the story. Reading Lemore as a Catalyn stand-in adds all kinds of layers of perversion, as he 'gets hard' when he slips into the water. Are his feelings about her vengeful, or lustful? It feels like these two emotions often exist side-by-side in Tyrion's mind, so I kind of like this added nuance.

Sure, Illyrio's plan could well be heavily motivated by vengeance, and Lemore is a part of it so it's not a huge leap. Personally, I kind of want to leave the more thematic symbolism alone, or rather let others explore it for now. There are people on this forum far, far better equipped than me to analyse these aspects. For me, the exciting thing is being able to examine ways in which George is able to use language to play with the readers, to see how deep his game goes.

Actually I'd say it doesn't stretch far enough. The books are entirely full of these kinds of mirrorings, if you keep an eye out . This is a relatively minor example. George wants us to play with the books, not just read them.

Sorry, you won't find any answers to who Septa Lemore 'secretly is' in this post. For all I know she could be Hot Pie's second cousin once removed. (Although if it turns out she is, then obviously I get full credit). No, the object here is to look at the meta riddle that she poses. Because while her past may be hidden to us, who she is meant to symbolise is something we can certainly try to identify. To do this we're going to hold true to that often-repeated idea: that George lays out his clues in sets of three, with their meaning getting somewhat clearer in each iteration. With AFFC and ADWD divided geographically, certain characters had to be sadly entirely absent from one book or the other. However, I believe George managed to find ways to make sure we don't feel their absence too much, by sneaking them into the books even when they aren't there. He achieves this by employing symbolic proxies: characters who have their own part to play in the normal story, but occasionally lead a 'double symbolic life'. This way key characters aren't entirely left out, and we possibly may even get hints of foreshadowing. Septa Lemore is one such character, so let's look at clue number one. I'll reveal who she symbolises at the end, so that you can play along. 1) She spends a lot of time in the water, and appears to have given birth: 2) She hangs a crystal gemstone between her breasts. The image is followed with a smile. Actually, I have a theory that George will often pair up 'clues' in the text with references to smiling. This goes right back to the prologue in AGOT, when Ser Waymar asks Gared: "Do the dead frighten you?" .... with just the hint of a smile. This in itself was not a clue (unless you've got other ideas). But ever since then, if you look out for the smiles you'll likely stumble onto a hint about something. 3) One scene shows her with a quiet, breathy voice: In summary, we have a female character who exhibits, at one time or another, the following: spending significant time in the water has given birth wears a stone next to her heart has a whispery voice So who has George smuggled into the book? Click to reveal all: