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Frey family reunion

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  1. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    It always seemed a bit selfish to me for Ned to leave his faithful friends in the Dornish sands while he traipses around with his dead sister on the back of one of his dead friend’s horses.
  2. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    I think George happily wants the reader to follow the dream to this conclusion. Of course that doesn’t mean the whole thing isn’t a devious will o’ wisp. ETA: use fevered dreams as evidence at your own peril.
  3. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    That's true even if the current White Walkers are recently created, they could be the same type of golem created during the Long Night. But I find the possibility that the White Walkers were literally created out of frozen air to resemble monsters out of a folktale very compelling. Literally words becoming wind. After all, I think it can be argued that the entire series is a bit of an homage to myths and folktales and literature. So what would be a more fitting tribute than creating a monster literally from bedtime stories and mythologies of the inhabitants of your fantasy world? It would also be a nod to GRRM's self-professed favorite movie, the Forbidden Planet, where the antagonist was a monster created by a machine from the Id of the humans on the planet.
  4. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

  5. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    But don't we have to ask if these are the same White Walkers that only existed 5 to 8 thousand years ago? I mean if they are this powerful, where have they been holed up for all this time? And isn't it interesting that they are so easily identifiable, that Will takes one glance at them and immediately comes to the conclusion that they are the White Walkers of legend, the boogeymen of the north. Are the folk tales, which Will undoubtedly grew up with, an accurate depiction of the legendary White Walkers, or are these White Walkers created to reflect the folk tales of the legendary White Walkers? For example there is a theory that the Ogres of folklore may have been derived from tales told of ancient Hungarians, who plagued various parts of Europe. The word Ogre perhaps being derived either from Hongrois, or Ugri, or Ugor names given by neighboring people to the tribes which later became Hungary. Their neighbors being plagued by these tribes would describe them as monstrous and inhuman, and gradually the term Ogre took on a life of its own through folklore. So today if someone were to see and immediately recognize something as an ogre, it would probably be bald, and green and monstrously large, probably looking like the cartoon Shrek come to life. But it wouldn't look at all like an ethnic predecessor of the Hungarians, where the term may have originated. Interestingly enough, according to Wiki the Hungarian tribes referred to themselves as "Maygar". I wonder if GRRM's use of the word Magnar may be a deliberate nod. Perhaps the ancient people of Skagos and Thenn (probable cannibals) were the original inspiration behind the White Walker legends. Terrible people who were driven into the mainland by the Long Winter and came into contact with the more civilized First Men. These people and their practices would have certainly seemed monstrous to the First Men, which may in turn have led to folklore and bedtime stories exaggerating their monstrosity. And then in turn, someone needed to create a magical creation, a golem, if you will, created to inspire fear in the denizens of the North, on both sides of the Wall. So they crafted their White Walkers to resemble the folklore of the White Walkers as opposed to the actual White Walkers of old.
  6. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    I kind of see this as the Ragnarok theory of the books. A lot of old grudges coming to a head at once, ending in an extinction level cataclysm with only a handful of survivors left to start things anew. In other words, to stay alive to "Dream of Spring", the novel that we will probably never get.
  7. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    Haven't read the Onion in a little while, but stumbled across this. https://www.theonion.com/george-r-r-martin-promises-fans-the-winds-of-winter-1826115223
  8. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    Assuming that he would be monogamous during his marriage. They seem like the type to have an “open” marriage, being hippie musicians and all.
  9. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    You raise a good point about the birth of Mance’s first child, just as Feather raises a good point about Mance’s comparison to Qhorin’s discipline against having female companionship. I’m officially on the fence on this. It always seemed strange to me that Mance would have had the time to meet a “southron” girl (at least in relation to the Wall), develop a relationship with her and a marriage all the while that he has his Wildling army massing in the Frostfangs. But perhaps as you suggested this might be a purely political marriage pre-arranged and part of Mance’s to do list in his journey to and from Winterfell. I suppose in a way it could parallel Robb’s sudden marriage to Jeyne, but even that was facilitated by his extended stay at her family’s castle due to injury.
  10. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    Jon was a boy at the time but Mance wasn’t, he was a young ranger. If Mance met her after he left the Night’s Watch (which I also assumed from the context of the quote) why make the comparison to Qhorin or the other members of the Night’s Watch who also engaged in relationships with women? He may just be saying that Dalla was not the reason he left the Night’s Watch (in other words having a relationship with a woman wasn’t exactly unheard of for members of the Night’s Watch). Instead he left the Night’s Watch over the issue of the cloak. Which I suspect may be a clue that Mance was Lord Qorgyle’s bastard, and a black cloak with three red spots being roughly the equivalent of the inverse of House Qorgyle’s sigil, three black scorpions on a red field, a bastard sigil, analogous to the Blackfyre sigil. In other words Mance thought he was special, but trapped in an organization where no one was allowed to stand out. This is why he left. But once he left the Night’s Watch he was then free to marry Dalla, who he may have already met and had a relationship with while being in the Night’s Watch. For example, let’s say Ygritte never died or Jon had broken his vows with Val. But Jon ultimately leaves the Night’s Watch to act on his claim to Winterfell. After he leaves he then would be free to marry Ygritte or Val, but they would not be the cause of his desertion.
  11. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    That’s an excellent point. At first I didn’t see the significance of mentioning Qhorin in this quote but I think you’re right. Once he left the Night’s Watch there is no prohibition in giving in to one’s fondness for women men, so why compare yourself to Qhorin? But while he was with the Night’s Watch his relationship with Dalla would have been a violation of his oath, and perhaps a source of conflict between him and Qhorin at the time. Interesting. This also makes a bit more sense time wise. Mance would have been pretty busy after Robert’s visit in getting back to the Wall and assembling his host at the Frostfangs to also start a relationship and then a marriage to Dalla.
  12. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    Don’t get me wrong, I believe that Dany will make her way to Westeros. My guess is she’s going to upend a good bit of Essos on the way there. And as Illyrio assures Tyrion, if she goes by ship she will have to stop in Volantis. My guess is if she’s bringing a Dothraki horde with her, then she’s going to to travel along the Stepstones so the Dothraki always have land to view. This would first bring her to Dorne, which may also be the actual location of her lemon tree from her childhood memory.
  13. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    I tend to agree with you on this point. It’s pretty amusing that while Tyrion advises Young Griff to move further away from Dany and invade Westeros on his own, that appears to be the reason Young Griff loses his Cyvasse game to Tyrion. His dragon was too far away to save him. I also somewhat agree that the Essos plotlines may not be finished yet. My suspicion is that one of Illyrio’s alliances may be with Benerro and the Red Priests of Volantis. Benerro is stirring up the slave populace by proclaiming Dany to be their foretold savior and by painting the Volantese as being an enemy of Dany. And while this scenario is happening, Illyrio tries to arrange a meeting of the Golden Company and Dany and whatever portion of her army she can fit on any ships (perhaps the thirteen that Xaro offers her) right outside the city of Volantis. And in the meantime, there just happens to be a Dothraki horde lurking north of Volantis diverting some of some of Volantis’ Tiger guard. My guess is, Illyrio knew that Dany’s arrival would cause Volantis to move against her and the Golden Company, which in turn would have sparked a slave revolt in the city, while most of Volantis’ city guard is either engaging Dany and the GC or the Dothraki horde to the north. Perhaps Illyrio’s gift to the Red Priests, delivering Volantis to them on a platter. Of course Tyrion advice to Young Griff and Dany’s refusal to leave Mereen, would have upended Illyrio’s plan.
  14. It sure seems to be the case: One can argue that it is not specified who would Knight Olyvar, but it is interesting that Olyvar was to serve as Robb’s squire. Isn’t the definition of a squire, someone who is in service to a knight? And at this point in the story Robb is neither king, lord, or knight.
  15. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    And it may be that the White Walkers have already accomplished their purpose, in driving the wildlings south of the Wall. And at least this far, that seems to be their purpose. The terror they instilled motivated people to leave their villages and move south in a massive migration. Mance's "army" was never attacked by the White Walkers. And according to Mance, they always remained behind the group, to the North. Which is why Mance seemed to dismiss the attack on his army from the East as being White Walker related. The only time the WW's attacked in mass was to destroy the NIght's Watch forces at the Fist, and their purpose was to prevent Mance's army from making their way to the Wall. And in the meantime all the attacks that are occurring seem to be directed at people who stayed in their villages rather than those making their way south of the Wall.
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