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Frey family reunion

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  1. Frey family reunion

    Valyria, A Gender Equal Society?

    You first have to remember that at the time we first hear about the prophecy, the Targaryens’ bloodlines weren’t just the bloodlines of dragon lords. Notably we don’t hear anything about the Prince that was Promised prophecy in the timeline covered in Fire and Blood. It’s very possible that the Targaryens first adopted/appropriated the prophecy from a culture that fairly recently was introduced into the family tree of the Targaryens. When we first hear of the Targaryens interest in the prophecy is during the time of Aegon V. And a previous Targaryen king was Aegon’s uncle, King Aerys I, who was supposed to be very interested in prophecies as well. So instead of assuming that the Targaryens are only interested in their paternal heritage, we must also consider the possibility that the Targaryens have an interest in their maternal bloodlines as well. And King Aerys’ mother was Dornish, while King Aegon’s maternal grandmother was Dornish and his mother was a Dayne as well. In fact it was fairly well established that there was a big Dornish influence in the Red Keep starting with King Daeron’s rule. So we really can’t discount the Dornish culture that was introduced into House Targaryen. And the fact that a Dornish woman raised three future kings of House Targaryen, and presumably had a great deal of influence over her grandchildren as well. The Prince that was Promised appears to be a type of messianic figure. Presumably the culture from which this messiah is to come from, will give the promised messiah the title of their highest sovereign. For example Jesus was referred to as the King of Kings. The highest sovereign of Israel being a king. And usually messianic beliefs come from a culture/society that is being oppressed. It’s surely not unusual for a society being oppressed to keep hope alive by promising a sovereign will come in the future to make things right. Now let’s look at when the Prince that was promised prophecy may have first come about: So now, let’s go back a thousand years to see if we can find an oppressed culture who’s highest sovereign was a Prince. So the Rhoynar culture was destroyed amidst smoke and salt a thousand years ago. So it would make sense that the promised messiah for the Rhoynars would be a Prince (their highest sovereign) who would arise from smoke and salt. Now it appears that both Rhaegar and Aemon have already conflated the messianic prophecies of two different cultures. The culture that gave birth to the Prince that was Promised, and the Asshai prophecy of Azor Ahai. It wouldn’t surprise me that they might have conflated another culture’s belief: The Dragon, and specifically the Dragon with Three Heads. This last being undoubtably a Valyrian belief. But it wouldn’t surprise me at all that the Targaryens would believe that not only that their family was destined to give birth to The Dragon, but they would also be the ones who would fulfill their maternal culture’s prophecy. A prophecy which may have originated from the smoking ruins of the Rhoynish people, and carried with them to Dorne. It also might be the reason that a Targaryen obsessed with the Prince that Was Promised prophecy, Rhaegar, may have come to believe that a child from a Dornish mother might be the one who would fulfill the prophecy. Aegon VI a Prince from both sides of his family.
  2. Frey family reunion

    Valyria, A Gender Equal Society?

    And where is it written that the prince that was promised prophecy was translated from Valyrian? eta and why would a Valyrian messiah be referred to as a promised prince? Let me suggest instead that you look to a culture who’s highest sovereign was a prince.
  3. Frey family reunion

    Valyria, A Gender Equal Society?

    I love it when fan theories become “fact” on this site. Sorry, or HBO none sense.
  4. Frey family reunion

    What if the Targaryens still had dragons during Robert's Rebellion?

    Define what you mean by full blooded Targaryens. Because that didn’t seem to exist in the aftermath of the Dance.
  5. Frey family reunion

    What exactly is the point of Quentyn?

    I think it’s possible that you may both be right.
  6. Frey family reunion

    The Tyrion of Fevre Dream (spoiler)

    I agree with this. It was complicated. The impression that I got was that York’s primary concern was for the betterment of his people. That included freeing them from the compulsion of the red thirst. Now I do think he envisioned a world where his people could coexist with the humans. I think he saw this as necessary for the advancement of his people. One thing that I took from this book was that GRRM isn’t out to necessarily subvert tropes. Instead he starts with a common genre trope (here the good vampires protecting the humans from the bad vampires) and then made things more complicated.
  7. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    I think they refer to those books as "alternative history" as opposed to fantasy. Whatever that distinction means.
  8. Frey family reunion

    The Tyrion of Fevre Dream (spoiler)

    My takeaway wasn't that York was looking to necessarily looking to create unity between the two races. My takeaway was that York believed that the red thirst effectively enslaved his people, preventing them from reaching their full potential. I think he believed that humans had advanced further than his species because they weren't beholden to the red thirst.
  9. Frey family reunion

    Targaryen Illness

    I'll agree with you up to the point when they lost their dragons. After that there doesn't appear to be anything quite so special about being a Targaryen, other than the sovereignty their forefathers and mothers created. But when they had dragons... that seems to create a hierarchy whether you like it or not.
  10. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    There seems to be an unwritten rule among fantasy writers that the technology in their worlds had to be the technology that existed some time prior to the first printing press (1430). Which is kind of funny when you think about it.
  11. Frey family reunion

    Is Ramsay, Brandon Stark's bastard?

    I definitely agree that there is a possibility that Dany's origin story as told to her by Viserys doesn't jive with her earliest childhood memories of a house with a red door with a lemon tree outside. And I agree that the author is pointing us in the direction of Dorne when it comes to lemon trees. And the only reason that Viserys would lie to Dany and tell her that she was born on Dragonstone and fled with him to Braavos is that Viserys needs to convince the world, starting with Dany, that she is his sister, when she is in fact not. And the only reason that I can think of that this deception would be necessary is that Viserys needed a "trueborn" sister as a bargaining chip to obtain an army. The very scenario that plays out when Viserys hands her over to Drogo in exchange for Drogo promising Viserys that his horde will invade Westeros on his behalf. My suspicion is that GRRM is playing around with the idea of magical bloodlines, especially when it comes to the Targs and their ability to hatch and bond with dragons. At the time of the rebellion the main Targaryen line hadn't hatched a dragon in well over one hundred years. And when you look back at their family tree. It's fairly easy to see why. Their line is descended from two people who never had any connection with dragons. Viserys II, who's dragon egg never hatched, and Larra Rogare, the daughter of a Lys banker. You can also see that the author basically split off the Targaryen line into a number of branches around this time. We have Baela Targaryen and Alyn Velaryon presumably whom the current House Velaryon descended from. We have a possible Targaryen line hidden through the birth of Viserys Plumm the son of Elaena Targaryen and allegedly her cousin Aegon IV. We have the descendants of Daena the defiant through House Blackfyre, apparently with both paternal and maternal lines. We even have another Targaryen House of sorts in House Longwater, descended from Elaena and Alyn Targaryen. So my suspicion is that a number of these extant lines may have reintegrated (possibly combing with House Targaryen) to give birth to Dany. Now an interesting question is that if so, was this mere happenstance, or was it specifically planned/engineered? If there was a manipulation of the bloodlines to try and bring about the "purer" bloodline of Aegon I and his sisters, then my guess is that Rhaegar may have been involved. Especially if Rhaegar was specifically studying and trying to bring about the various prophecies that he seemed so obsessed about. If Rhaegar believed that dragons were a necessary component to the Prince that was Promised (as Aemon certainly seemed to believe), then it would not surprise me if Rhaegar was behind Dany's origin in some way. Now I'm not necessarily sure that Rhaegar would have to be the father, although certainly possible. My favorite pet theory/crackpot, is that GRRM may have created an inverse of the King Arthur origin for Dany. In the King Arthur mythos, Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon, the King of Britain took a fancy to Igraine, so her husband locks her in an impregnable castle for protection. Merlin cast an illusion (i.e. glamor) on Uther so that he would appear to be Igraine's husband. Under this deception he conceives Arthur with Igraine. Perhaps in the chaos of the last weeks of the Targaryen dynasty, Rhaegar engineers his own deception. Viserys and Rhaella Targaryen leave King's Landing in a midnight voyage to Dragonstone under the nose of Aerys. Another is then glamored to appear as the queen. This is the one who is "raped" by Aerys after he burns Chelsted, and this is the one who Jaime sees leaving the Red Keep for the docks under a hood in the morning.
  12. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

  13. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    GRRM actually addressed this topic in one of the SSMs:
  14. Frey family reunion

    Is Ramsay, Brandon Stark's bastard?

    No not Ned.
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