Jump to content

Frey family reunion

Members
  • Content count

    3,562
  • Joined

  • Last visited

5 Followers

About Frey family reunion

  • Rank
    Council Member

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Louisiana

Recent Profile Visitors

3,516 profile views
  1. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    But have you ever crossed any mountains with a baby in one arm and your dead sister in the other?
  2. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    As Feather point out, the Prince’s Pass isn’t really a convenient pass to or from Starfall. In fact, it may be longer and more arduous to go through the mountains to the Pass, then it would be to go to North through the Mountains straight into the Reach. There isn’t any reason to assume that Ned found her in the tower, unless we assume that Ned’s dreams are limited to scenes that only took place in close geographic and temporal proximity.
  3. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    There does appear to be an air of inevibility to their encounter. Both sides seemed prepared to encounter each other and both sides seemed fairly resigned to the fact that this was to be a battle to the death. But if the tower was merely a meeting place for a duel, why was it said that Rhaegar named it the tower of joy? I agree Lyanna was not inside the tower, but I disagree that this meeting was merely the last battle of the rebellion. The presence of the three kingsguards, at least two of who are close confidants of Rhaegar, at a place specifically named by Rhaegar implies to me that this was to be the culmination of Rhaegar’s story arc. The three kingsguards having taken an oath to finish what Rhaegar had started.
  4. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    I’m in complete agreement that Lyanna wasn’t inside the tower of joy, and my guess was that she was never inside the tower of joy. There is nothing about a tower that can be single handedly pulled down to create eight cairns located in a mountain pass which during wartime is mainly used for Dorne to have their army gather which is consistent with housing someone, especially a pregnant girl for any significant length of time. But of course we have to answer the next logical question. If Lyanna wasn’t in the tower of joy, why does Rhaegar refer to it as the tower of joy? I think the answer lies in what Rhaegar’s true passion was. It’s evident that like Melisandre, Rhaegar seems very influenced by prophecy. Specifically prophecies involving the Prince that was Promised, bleeding stars, and being reborn among salt and smoke. Melisandre believes these prophecies are precursors to the coming fo the Long Night. Aemon seems to agree with Melisandre on that point when he states that if the Battle for the Dawn is coming “where is the prince that was promised”. In other words the Prince that was Promised in Aemon’s mind needs come about to fight the Battle for the Dawn. If Aemon believes that, it seems a safe bet that Rheagar believed that as well. I think we need to look at Rhaegar’s curious actions at Harrenhal and his alleged interest in Lyanna and her subsequent abduction through the lens of Rhaegar’s belief in prophecy. In other words, like Melisandre, Rhaegar seems to be trying to steer events to meet his view of what needs to occur to fulfill the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised. And it seems that the Prince that was Promised prophecy also involves dragons. At least Aemon seems to believe that Dany may be the Princess that was Promised due to her dragons. In fact he said that the dragons proved it. And couple that with the belief that the place that Rhaegar truly loved was Summerhall. And the Summerhall tragedy specifically seems to be linked to this dream of dragons. If Rhaegar and Melisandre may have been interpreting the same or similar prophecies, and if both Melisandre and Rhaegar seemed to think that dragons were an integral part of the prophecy, is it that much of a stretch to believe that both believed that the same type of sacrifice was needed to bring dragons back into existence? So I wonder if perhaps, if Rhaegar named it the tower of joy, because he did anticipate a birth to occur there. But perhaps he’s not referring to the birth of a human child, but instead the birth of a dragon, or dragons. Or perhaps the tower of joy was where the prince that was promised prophecy was finally going to be fulfilled. If this required a sacrifice or sacrifices of kingsblood, perhaps to include a child of Lyanna’s, then that may explain why Ned made a secret mission to the tower. A mission that was made without Robert’s knowledge because it specifically dealt with rescuing Lyanna’s child a child she had with someone other than Robert.
  5. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    But why does Ned arrive at this meeting place with only a small hand picked group of men? Wouldn’t Robert want a piece of the action or perhaps someone that Robert was close to? The makeup of Ned’s “dirty seven” and the obvious secrecy surrounding their place of burial (even their wives are apparently not told where their husbands are buried or why) seems to imply that this was a secret mission. But my more significant issue is more from a literary standpoint than a logical one. If Martin is going to tease a significant event at the tower of joy (i.e. Jon is Rhaegar’s rightful heir, Lyanna dies at the tower and makes Ned promise to protect her child, the usual pablum) and if that turns out to be a misdirect, then the reality of the event should have equal or greater significance to the overall story. And by that I mean, either major significance to the external conflict of the story, or a major reveal or significance for a character’s internal conflict, or perhaps a combination of both. I think this is a very valid point. It also highlights the incongruity of Ned and Howland taking baby Jon, and Lyanna’s body with them to return a sword to Starfall. Either they take an extremely arduous land route or they seek passage on a ship to travel around Dorne to arrive at Starfall with Jon to an unexpected welcome. Either option doesn’t seem a very good reason to pack up Jon and bring him to Starfall. The only reason that I can think of (assuming of course that Jon was at the tower of joy) is that there is someone at Starfall they wanted to bring the child back to.
  6. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    You mean other than Jon Snow
  7. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    Maybe, but there are several different scenarios that can be considered, assuming that Lyanna wasn’t in the tower of joy. Because after all, Ned had to have gone to the tower for a reason, and this reason did not seem to involve Robert Baratheon, but only involved a small number of people that from all appearances would have been extremely loyal to the Starks. So what would Ned have a concern about around this time frame that he had to keep a tight secret and something that could not have involved Robert Baratheon? The most logical reason that Ned would have gone on a secret mission to the tower of joy is that it involved, not Lyanna, but a child of Lyanna’s. Specifically a child that was known not to have been Robert’s child. Perhaps in order of likelihood: 1. Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall, and like Elia, after the birth of her first child was left bedridden because of a difficult pregnancy. The Kingsguards take Lyanna’s child. Ned after locating Lyanna (or having someone close to Ned locate Lyanna) sets forth on a mission to find Lyanna’s child and return the child to her. Ned tracks them down at the tower of joy. Ned retrieves Jon, and he and Howland return Jon to Starfall because Lyanna’s located at Starfall. (Which in my opinion is a much more compelling reason to travel to Starfall than returning a sword to House Dayne). Lyanna’s death then occurs after Ned returns to Starfall. 2. Lyanna gives birth to twins at Starfall. The kingsguards take one of the twins. Ned finds Lyanna at Starfall. She elicits a promise from Ned and then she dies. He and his company set out to find the Kingsguards that took Lyanna’s child, but they have to leave Lyanna’s other child behind at Starfall, because they can’t take him or her with them. They find the other child at the tower of joy, kill the kingsguards and then return to Starfall because that’s the location of Lyanna’s other child whom they have to retrieve.
  8. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    But why would Ned have moved her to Starfall of all places? Especially after he just killed Arthur Dayne, and married Cat instead of Ashara Dayne. I think if Lyanna was at Starfall ( and I suspect she was) then she was brought there by either Rhaegar and/or his kingsguards. It’s the most defensible fortification in control of the family of his closest confidant. Ned’s dream is the flimsiest piece of evidence that Lyanna was ever at the tower of joy. Our dreams can associates two different memories other than those memories being in the same time and location. I hate to keep coming back to this SSM but: Why is GRRM cautioning not to take Ned’s dream too literally? Ned’s memory of the events corroborates fighting the three kingsguards at a place Rhaegar named “tower of joy”, and Ned’s memory corroborates being with Lyanna when she elicited a promise from him. But Ned’s memories never corroborate that Lyanna was actually inside or at the tower of joy. So for the above reader to assume that Lyanna is in the tower, she is basing this assumption on Ned’s dream. And Ned’s dream only. And GRRM then cautions her not to take the dream too literally. As for Ned’s memory of three kingsguards, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood, Ned is describing his dream not an actual event. In other words Ned has a recurring dream of the three kingsguards a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood. His subconscious at least is associating these events together, which is why he dreams of these events. But that’s not the same thing as Ned having a memory of Lyanna being inside the tower of joy.
  9. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    I’d argue a more compelling reason for Ned traveling from the tower of joy to Starfall, than taking returning a sword. I would suggest that Ned travelled to the tower of joy with a small number of hand picked men he could trust because his mission wasn’t to free or find Lyanna, but instead his mission was to find and free Lyanna’s child. And the reason he makes the hazardous journey back to Starfall wasn’t really to return a sword, but instead to bring Lyanna’s child back to her at Starfall.
  10. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    To be fair, I’d argue that the TOJ doesn’t imply that she was at the tower of joy or gave birth to the tower of joy. The dream is separated into two distinct scenes, separated by a surreal image Then presumably the scene shift to “Lyanna in her bed of blood”. Even though it seems that Eddard is woken up before we get a real glimps of that scene. But we don’t know that Lyanna’s bed of blood was in the “tower long fallen”. Only that the dream consisted of three parts in Ned’s mind: 1. Three knights in white cloaks 2. Tower long fallen and 3. Lyanna in her bed of blood. We can associate 1 and 2 together because Ned verifies the fight between the three kingsguards and his companions in his memory and he associates the fight and their burial with the tower of joy being a bitter memory. But nowhere in his memories does he associate Lyanna’s death with the tower of joy. Obviously he makes a connection between 1. The three knights of the kingsguards and 2. The tower long fallen with 3. Lyanna in her bed of blood. But that connection does not have to be one of immediate location and time. In other words Ned can be making a connection between his battle at the tower of joy with Lyanna being on her death bed without that connection being that Lyanna was actually in her bed of blood in the tower long fallen. ETA: and the fact that GRRM warns a reader about taking a fever dream too literally at least implies that GRRM is warning the reader about assuming that Lyanna was inside the tower of joy based on Ned’s dream.
  11. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    The Martells are referenced two sentences before, yet the Dornish troops are referenced one sentence before, so why couldn't Martin be referring to the Dornish troops' anger over Elia's treatment as opposed to the Martells? For that matter, GRRM could have specified that it was the Martell's anger over Rhaegar's treatment of Elia, but he doesn't. He uses the more general term "Dornishmen". Now Dornishmen can refer to the Dornish troops, and the Martells, and generally refer to the people of Dorne. Or Dornishmen could be just the Dornish troops but not the Martells. I think GRRM is being purposely vague here for a reason. He doesn't necessarily want to be that specific. If he meant House Martell, I think he would have stated the Martells's anger over the treatment of Elia, and Doran's own cautiousness were the two factors that muted Dorne's initial response to the rebellion. But nope he chooses not to. Regardless, you are acting like Doran and the Martells can be separated from the wishes and feelings of the Dornish people. But as we're made aware of in AFFC and ADWD, Doran is painfully aware of the overriding sentiment of the people of his nation. So if Dorne as a whole were angry over Rhaegar's treatment of Elia, than that would certainly be a factor in Doran being reticent to commit troops to the war. But regardless it doesn't change my initial argument, that Starfall is a much more likely place to have put Elia than an old abandoned watchtower in a mountain pass, who's primary purpose during wartime is passage of troops to and from Dorne. If Doran was angry at Rhaegar's treatment of Elia over Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna, then it seems completely loopy to put her in an old abandoned, broken (your words) lightly defended watchtower, where Doran Martells's army would pass back and forth. Or to put Lyanna in the lands and control of House Fowler, one of the Martell's strongest allies in Dorne. It would be much more probable that Lyanna would be in Starfall, though while in Dorne, it is certainly remote enough and protected enough from the mountains to be hidden from Doran's view. And while there could be a danger of word leaking out (assuming the people in the castle actually know who Lyanna is) I think the danger is being overstated. The people in the castle are either Daynes, their knights, or their servants, or the immediate family of their knights and servants. Everyone has a vested interest in Starfall not being burned to the ground by Robert Baratheon. We're not talking about a city, or even a town, this is a lone castle on an island in the mountains. Of course there is a risk to Lord Dayne, I would even argue a tremendous risk, but to say that he would refuse a request from Rhaegar or more significantly a request from Lord Dayne's brother, the Sword of the Morning, unquestionably Starfall's favorite and most influential "son", I would disagree. Nor do I find the argument that Rhaegar would not have put Lord Dayne in that position compelling. Please. We are acting like we really know Rhaegar and what he would do and wouldn't do. If Rhaegar were such a fine and upstanding man, you would assume that he wouldn't take a 15 or 16 year old girl and hide her from her family, hiding her pregnancy from her family, and thus risking the outbreak of a war that is going to cause numerous deaths and suffering throughout the land, but here we are. My opinion is that Rhaegar's actions are influenced by the Prince that Was Promised prophecy, and the prophecy of bleeding stars, and being reborn in smoke and salt. In other words, prophecies that are directly tied to the coming of a Long Night and a savior needed to win the battle for the dawn. The same sacrifices he makes with his own kingdom, the same sacrifices he makes in risking war, and hiding a young girl, so she gives birth to someone integral in Rhaegar's plans, are the same sacrifices that would lead him to secrete her in Starfall so she and more importantly her unborn child can be properly cared for. It seems that you are making as many assumptions as I am, perhaps even more. But in reply to your argument, an abandoned old broken down watchtower is not suitable accommodations for a pregnant girl for an extended period of time. Not if one is all concerned about her health, or the health of the child. Nor can it be suitably defended. But the other problem is that the Pass is where Doran gathers his army. They don't just move through the pass, because of Doran's cautious nature, they actually stay in the Pass, and live there for a time. To argue that no one would check out this tower, especially if there are signs that it's being manned, (and don't we have knights of the Kingsguard gaurding Lyanna under the your theory?) is unrealistic. Even if the army was just moving through it seems naive to think that no one would observe any knights about this tower, and go check it out. So not only would Rhaegar risk someone discovering Lyanna, but perish the thought, he would risk Lyanna being discovered and raped by horny Dornishmen in the army. Something that frequently happens during war time. Heck maybe that's why Jon is so dark complected, his father is really a salty Dornish soldier . But the problem is traveling to Starfall doesn't really cover Ned's tracks does it? It would make more sense if Ned claimed that Jon was Ashara's son. So he then goes to Starfall to explain where he got Jon. But he doesn't. In fact travelling to Starfall just causes Ned to come up with another story, that he was returning Arthur's sword to Starfall. It also causes the rumor and speculation apparently, that Jon is Ashara's son, a rumor that really seems to anger Ned. I also don't think that covering his tracks would be a very compelling reason for Ned to risk a trip to Starfall. Especially if he had a baby in tow. It seems a ridiculous unnecessary risk. There is only one reason in my mind, that Ned would travel to Starfall with a baby. And the only reason is that Ned is trying to return the baby to his mother.
  12. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    Look carefully at Martin’s quote. You’ve interpreted it to mean that he’s referring to the Martell’s reaction to Rhaegar’s treatment of Elia, but that’s not what it says. It says the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have. And that’s unquestionably true. Dorne as a whole would not be aware of Rhaegar’s beliefs in the Prince that was Promised etc. The Dornish people would have assumed that Rhaegar had set aside Elia after hearing of the events at Harrenhal and then Lyanna’s subsequent “abduction”. So even if Doran understood the underlying motives behind Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna (which is a big if, I agree) and even if he approved of Rhaegar’s actions (an even bigger if, I agree) the Dornish people would not have. And Doran as a leader of the Dornish people is going to be very aware of their sentiment of what’s happening. For Dorne, under these circumstances, supporting Rhaegar and going to war for Rhaegar is going to be extremely unpopular. Combine that with his ordinarily cautious nature, and this explains why Dorne, specifically Doran, was so reticent to get involved. But to argue that Rhaegar made a complete split with his wife and her family, specifically Lewyn, in his obsession with Lyanna, I’m not sure that’s supported at all. Assuming that Rhaegar’s conversation with Elia in the HOTU visions takes place after Harrenhal (and admittedly I’m very confused about the sequence of events) there doesn’t appear to be any significant split over Rhaegar crowning Lyanna. Then we have to figure out who were the six people who rode off with Rhaegar on the journey that would ultimately lead to Lyanna’s “abduction”. The World Book gives us a pretty clear idea, who Rheagar’s confidants were. Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, Jon Connington, Arthur Dayne, and Lewyn Martell. If we add Oswell Whent based on Oswell being entrusted by Rhaegar to set up the Harrenhal tourney, and Oswell’s later appearance at the tower of joy, then we get the six likeliest candidates to have ridden out with Rhaegar on the journey that led to Lyanna’s abduction. In which case, it would seem to be odd that Rhaegar was abducting Lyanna to set aside Elia and then take Elia’s uncle along to help abduct her. But let’s assume for an instant that you are correct. That the Martells had a significant split with Rhaegar due to Rhaegar’s sudden interest in Lyanna. Then it goes back to the incongruity of Rhaegar deciding to hide Lyanna in the Prince’s Pass in a lightly defended watchtower. Basically putting his mistress directly in the path of his angry brother in law’s army. Lyanna in the tower of joy scenario, only really works if the tower was only a temporary stopping point born out of necessity. In other words, the Kingsguards were taking Lyanna through the Prince’s pass but had to stop due to a complication of Lyanna’s pregnancy, or perhaps just the fact that Lyanna started going into labor. In other words, kind of like the ASOIAF’s version of the Bethleham manger. The problem with that scenario is that Rhaegar names the tower the tower of joy. I don’t know if Rhaegar would have been in the position to know about the tower, in this scenario. But I suppose it’s certainly possible. However, it doesn’t address, in my mind at least, why Eddard would travel to Starfall after the battle. (it doesn’t also really address why there would have been a bed in the tower either).
  13. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    The mental gymnastics you’re going through to try and make sense of this is really amusing. Let me suggest that the reason that this topic keeps cropping up is that the traditional narrative is fundamentally flawed. And the traditional narrative consists of Lyanna dying in the tower of joy. A narrative’s who’s only basis is Ned’s dream. GRRM has certainly invited you to come to this conclusion. But if you really start examining the facts everything starts to fall apart. So Ned can cremate his sister, but only has “fuel” just for her? There’s a damn bed in this watchtower, so burn that thing. You could probably get at least a couple more bodies on it. And then rather then get baby Jon and Lyanna’s blackened, charred bones, back to safety, you instead make a journey through the mountain, in enemy territory, just so you can get a sword back to House Dayne? There is a much simpler, more elegant solution. Ned had to get back to Starfall because Lyanna was at Starfall. Ned treated Lyanna’s remains diffently than the remains of the Kingsguards and his companions, because Lyanna was never at the tower of joy. Lyanna was at a place where her remains could be properly cared for and transported to Winterfell.
  14. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    There’s an assumption here, that I would like to address. You claim that fostering Lyanna, who you claim to be Rhaegar’s “mistress”, would risk the wrath of House Martell. And that House Martell was pissed off at Rhaegar’s treatment of Lyanna. I’m not sure that this is corroborated anywhere in the books. But assuming that House Martell is angry that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna further dishonoring Elia, like Rhaegar did at the Harrenhal tourney, wouldn’t it be the utter height of folly for Rhaegar to put Lyanna in the Prince’s Pass, directly in the path of House Martell’s army? Especially for the length of time it would take a pregnancy to occur? But of course we’re assuming that House Martell would be angry over Rhaegar taking Lyanna. And we haven’t really been given any indication that either Lyanna’s “crowning” or even her abduction/seduction angered the Martells. Naturally, they would be , if Rhaegar’s actions to Lyanna were thought to be the actions of someone spurning Elia and turning to another woman. What I’m suggesting, however, is that the Martells may have been privy to and supportive of Rhaegar’s ulterior motive, bringing about the Prince that was Promised prophecy, and the belief that Lyanna’s child was a necessary component of this prophecy. The Worldbook gives us an indication as to who may have been in Rhaegar’s inner circle: So it seems that Rhaegar confided in the Dornishmen who came with Elia to court. Specifically mentioned is Lewyn Martell, but my guess is that Oberyn may have also have been in Rhaegar’s confidence. And Oberyn was notably present at the Harrenhal tourney as well. And Rhaegar seems fairly open to telling Elia about his belief in prophecy and the role that their son is supposed to play: Within the conversation appears to be the acknowledgment that their son is only one piece of the puzzle. That there needs to be one more piece. Presumably Elia has already been told that she can’t have another child. So if Rhaegar is this open with his wife Elia, it stands to reason, that if he believes a third child is necessary, he doesn’t seem to be concerned about the wraith of the Martells if that third child is to be born by Lyanna. So if Elia is in one the plan, it stands to reason that her uncle Lewyn, and possibly her brother Oberyn, may have been privy to it as well. So I would suggest, that fostering Lyanna might not have risked House Martell’s wraith, in fact House Martell, or members within, may have taken an active part in Lyanna’s “abduction”. After all Rhaegar rode out with six companions from King’s Landing. Can we assume that out of these six companions, at least one of them wasn’t a Martell? As to risking Aerys’ wraith, that’s a more difficulty nut to crack. I don’t know if we can assume that to be the case, however. If kidnapping and fostering Lyanna would have incurred Aerys wraith, the person who would have received the brunt of this wraith, would be Rhaegar. Yet we don’t really get any indication of this, quite the opposite actually. Of course Aerys was also fully aware of the Prince that was Promised prophecy as well, especially since he was married to his wife specifically in the purpose of bringing this prophecy about. So returning to your original point, I don’t see that fostering Lyanna in Starfall would have incurred the wraith of either the King or House Martell. In fact quite, the opposite, I would argue that Lord Dayne probably believed that this actions would have been approved by both parties. Interestingly enough, if the Martells were a part of this, Doran is probably too cautious to have fostered Lyanna in Sunspear or the Water Gardens. But Lyanna being fostered in Starfall, a remote location in Dorne, fairly separated from the rest of Dorne by the Red Mountains, would have given him plausible deniability that he was aware of it.
  15. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    You make it seem like Starfall is just down the road. It’s completely enclosed by the Red Mountains of Dorne. So absent a naval excursion around Dorne and straight into waters controlled by the Arbor and Old Town, no one is going to “come asking”. At the very most you might be able to get a small group to travel there, but unless they’re invited in, they’re not going to be allowed in. You’re not going to be able to get a large force through the mountains. As for Rhaegar putting the Daynes in such a situation, I beg to differ. Rhaegar put all of Westeros into open warfare by “abducting” Lyanna in the first place. I think it’s very posssible that Rhaegar believes his actions are for the greater good. If Rhaegar is indeed trying to bring about the Prince that Was Promised prophecy he’s operating under the belief that the Long Night is coming and the Prince that was Promised is necessary to win the Battle for the Dawn. With that in mind, he’s going to turn to the people he trusts the most. And there is no one he trusts more than Arthur Dayne. And keep in mind that Arthur’s sister Ashara is also Elia’s lady in waiting. There isn’t a castle in Westeros that Rhaegar would trust more than Starfall with Lyanna. Certainly not King’s Landing, under the control of his mad father. Yes, Ser Oswell didn’t “control” Harrenhal, yet by all accounts Lord Whent hosted the Harrenhal tourney at the request of Rhaegar. So it’s evident that these Kingsguards hold a lot of sway with their old households. Couple that with the fact that Ser Arthur is the Sword of Morning of Dorne, and a legend in Westeros, he’s obviously going to hold a lot of sway at Starfall. I don’t think that there is a household in Westeros, including his own, that Rhaegar would have a stronger alliance and trust with. And I do want to turn back to the idea of Starfall being too populated and public to bring Lyanna to. Starfall isn’t a city, or a town. Starfall is a castle on an island in the mountains. It’s going to be a fairly tight knit group in the castle. Especially considering how remote this castle is from the rest of Westeros.
×