Jump to content


  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

About Maia

  • Rank
    Council Member

Recent Profile Visitors

11,757 profile views
  1. Maia

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Not if fight against the Others leads to the massive resurgence of the Old Gods religion. Also, more Great Houses need to fall - there has to be sweeping change of political landscape at the end of the series, otherwise it would have all been quite pointless and a waste of time. If Arryns, Tullys and Baratheons - who are all teering on the edge of extinction, are gone, the Lannisters are seriously disgraced, and the Starks are seen as the heroes with a divine connection, then it could work. Bran being the king of Westeros is part of the original outline of ASoIaF and, I guess, something that GRRM is really keen on, because the show-runners clearly weren't interested in the character and allegedly wanted to write him out completely. Yes, it doesn't make much sense from where the things stand at the end of ADwD. No wonder that Martin has been struggling with TWoW for so long. I thought that all the complaints about how haphazard and anti-sanitary KL was when compared to other great cities might have been hinting that maybe they are going to build a new capital after it is destroyed. And location on the God's Eye would be more central and provide that Old Gods connection. Martin does need to provide good justifications for the kingdoms staying together, though. Devastation after the Others, the greyscale epidemic and the civil wars could do it, but then Northern secession could not be presented as a good thing, so I dunno, maybe it doesn't actually come to pass. Concerning Jon - maybe he never leaves the NW in the books, given that it mainly happened to spike Dany's ascent to the throne in the show and FAegon is going to it much better in the books?
  2. Yes. It is a fundamentally stupid ending that will require huge contrivances in the books and it also manages to hit all the problematic sexist tropes. After all, Lysa, Cersei and Dany - the only 3 women wielding high-level direct power in books so far are now apparently equally evil and mad. Also, it sure looks like all 3 are going to be murdered by the men they love, to stop them from commiting further insanities. Whee! Yes, yes, we have also seen plenty of problematic powerful men. But powerful men come on a spectrum of ability and goodness, and there are plenty who are one or the other or some compromise between the 2. Oh and let's not forget that Cat also dared to "meddle" in politics, with disastrous results and has also gone mad before she died. All the bigots who prevented female succession in the history books are proven right, because Dany is worse than Maegor the cruel and Mad Aerys combined! This despite women dragonriders in FaB not even getting enough clout or inspiring enough fear to have much of a say in governance and war or to stop male nobles from trying to force them into marriages. But Dany having dragons that are just about 2 years old is being treated like she has a nuclear bomb, when not even Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar were that. Sansa is still just 13 in the books and is rather far from the point of becoming a significant power - not to mention that since she is very much about _soft_ power, it really doesn't make sense for her to come into her own until she is several years older and has time to build up her influence network. So far, she has mostly been just a window into the doing of other people. The whole QiTN thing also doesn't seem believable book-wise - IMHO it was a desperate face-saving manouevre on the part of the show. BTW the world isn't going to be broken and remade, after all, so that Westeros maybe finally moves towards the Renaissance, due to the combination of a huge die-off and the eastern influences that preserved the heritage of a previous great civilization. No, it is the same old, same old, only slightly dinged, with the feudal nobility firmly in power, the family that is 8K old back on top, etc. And this is supposed to be a satisfying ending?! It seems like the change from sociological story-telling to psychological, as adressed in the excellent article in Scientific American wasn't just a show thing, but very much a book thing too. In fact, sociological story-telling was only ever there to camouflage the strings of a very traditional story, with the only surprise being the Fisher King instead of Arthur getting to be the "good ruler" in the end. But never Morgan Le Fay, that would be a step too far. This ending belongs together with such jewels of GRRM's original series outline as "forbidden passion" between Jon and Arya, Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle, evil King Jaime sacking Winterfell, etc. Though at least there Bran would have been an adult, who had been ruling for years, before Dany even showed up.
  3. Maia

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Isn't Davos conveniently fetching one for him? And it is fairly useful, since he, at least, is aware of the danger of the Others and can start to prepare the North for it, though with only a very partial success. Indeed not. That's the whole point - the "ungrateful northeners" plot fits Stannis's arc far more than Dany's. Nor is there really time for him to march south, if GRRM is serious about the Long Night. If he is not, well, anything can happen, but IMHO the incessant squabbling for power is getting fairly boring and repetitive. There is a full roster of people fighting in the south already. Why? Massey didn't even leave yet and it is very doubtful that he'd be able to find many sellswords willing to go fight in the North in winter, particularly not if they have to land as far north as Eastwatch. Especially since there is currently a recruitment craze in southern Essos. And if Davos brings Rickon, Stannis will have the White Harbour Port to use, which is a far more reasonable place to land an army, supposing that Massey actually manages to hire one eventually and chooses to bring it to Stannis, rather than FAegon. Masseys used to be very tight with Targaryens, after all. Roose is an interesting enemy, Ramsey not so much. It is entirely possible that Roose won't be finished when Winterfell falls, but manages to escape and to remain a thorn in the protagonist's side, helps the Others out of spite or whatever. However, there are only 2 books left and new things need to be happening, rather than the constant regurgitation of what we have already seen before. Basically, it all hinges on the question - will Martin treat the Long Night in the same lacklustre way as the show did or will he stretch his muscles as a horror writer (which he used to be quite good as) and make it something memorable? I am unabashedly for the latter - which is why I think that we saw almost nothing of Jon's book arc in the show. Instead, it seems to me that he mostly inherited Stannis's and FAegon's plots. I used to think that Jon was not dead and would be healed by the same ritual as Mirri used on Drogo, only performed properly, rather than with the intention of turning the patient into a vegetable. Unlike the fire-wights, Drogo's wound was actually healed. But after what we have seen in the show about Jon's ending, I am not sure. Also, having the funky flaming blood would be very helpful in a scenario where the Others are not a droid army. Yea, book Jon was already breaking his vows and leaving the Wall when he was killed, so the "death" loophole in the oaths is completely unnecessary. It is also quite ludicrous to think that people would believe in it and accept it without question, like they did in the show, where even Cersei somehow totally bought that Jon was still super-honorable, rather than a power-hungry oathbreaker. He could have just left the Wall at the end of ADwD and been saved from the charges of desertion by Robb's will turning up, if that's where GRRM was going. But is it? Given how quickly the whole KiTN thing was dispensed with in the show and Jon's ending, I kinda doubt it. IMHO, Jon getting assassinated was in part to _stop_ him from going down that road. Very much so, always provided that GRRM didn't become as enamored with incessant power struggles as D&D and still intends to deal with the threat of the Others and the Long Night, which should be devastating even without them, properly. His intended endings for the main characters, as presented by the show, raised some doubts in my mind, but I am still hoping that he isn't going for the cheap and underwhelming resolution.
  4. Maia

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Exactly! That felt like treading water in the show. I don't know about nearly all the soldiers getting killed, but the "ungrateful northeners" stuff could happen here, as I don't see Dany's forces marching up north through the snows in the depth of winter - they are all unused to the cold and there would be very little fodder too. Stannis, OTOH, did come north to win the people's loyalty by helping them and also to defend the realm against the Others, and is currently reaping very little recognition for it - which I don't expect to change that much even once he removes the Boltons. IMHO, the Others need to finally come to the forefront of at least a couple of PoV plotlines, otherwise they risk to become a travesty, like in the show. Also, I think that there is at least one vision, though I don't remember whose, that Stannis is going to be killed by the Others - which is why it would make sense if the attck on Winterfell happens, but they lose and the castle falls.
  5. Maia

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Well, it is no wonder that GRRM has such problems with reaching this ending, which he envisioned back when ASOIAF was supposed to be a much simpler tale spanning many years of the characters lives. He has been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole this whole time! It is deeply ironical that he spoke about Aragorn's attitude towards taxes and other mundane aspects of running a kingdom being something that he'd like to see before agreeing that he would make a good monarch, when Aragorn at least had tons of experience from serving in Gondor under an alias, and the whole time Martin intended Bran as his end-game . And I do think that it is fully GRRM's intention, because the show-runners clearly weren't interested in Bran beyond the absolute minimum that they had to include, and I have also read rumors that they wanted to get rid of him a couple of seasons ago. But then, it has become quite clear that Martin and I think very differently - for instance his assertion that we were supposed to see Bran as "young Arthur" in his first PoV sounds utterly preposterous to me, because that's where we were also introduced to a glowingly described bastard of mysterious parentage . I mean, come on! It is also fairly incomrehensible to me how GRRM didn't see that progressing the time-line at a good clip, or failing that, a time-skip was utterly essential for him to be able to reach his ending in a half-way organic manner. I mean, at the end of ADwD Bran is at best 10 (though Tommen is still 8, so he might be 9), Sansa is 13, Arya is 11. Yes, there were plot-lines hanging at the end of ASoS (which outcome he could have largely avoided with a little planning, BTW) and yes, he may have had to include a few flashbacks, but whatever brute-forcing he needed to do to make it work would have been nothing compared to the contrivances that he'll have to resort to now. Still, here is my stab at predictions for the remaining volumes: I am rather perplexed that so many chapters were spent on Essos, in view of the show's ending. I can only imagine that events there will play a more important role in the books. Speaking of the character plots - I am more than ever convinced that Jon never leaves NW in the first place, given how his arc ends in the show. His show plot is a mish-mash between Stannis's and FAegon's plots and there is no reason to think that Martin will make it clear that that the Others were completely destroyed for all time. If he is a revenant in the books, well, that has a cost, too. It also looks like we'll really be treated to Bran's escape from the cave and trek back to civilization during which he'd somehow miraclously avoid getting his paralyzed legs gangrenous with frostbite. Yawn. It was intriguing, but quite implausible when he was going in the other direction and will be even more unbelievable now. It also seems to me that to become King Bran he'd need Bloodraven's consciousness downloaded into his brain or at least a way to access it at need. Just "seeing" things can't be enough for him to develop the necessary judgement and skills. The only way I could actually see King Bran would be if Westeros was properly devastated over a long period of time and a good chunk of the old nobility dies out. _And_ if he is very obviously instrumental in the defeat of the Others and uses the momentum to revitalize the Old Gods worship in the south. This could be interesting, but only if GRRM doesn't cheat on the Long Night and/or a 10-year-long winter. It would make sense for the Starks to be one of the very few old Houses remaining, partly due to their magical abilities and coming into ultimate power as a result. Would also be a nice diveregence from the brutally overused in fantasy "magic departs in the end because it is really a metaphor for a person's/civilization's childhood" narrative. Greenseeing and skinchanging in no way way preclude technological progress! Unfortunately, GRRM is on the record with his desire to implement a variation on "the Scouring of the Shire", which suggests that he, too, doesn't intend to make the Long Night earn it's billing. And, to be honest, that's going to be very disappointing for me. Because this is exactly what the thousands of Tolkien imitators always borrow from him - an ancient menace preparing itself over the millenia, just to be quickly defeated by severely weakened and initially unprepared protagonists. In LoTR the whole world-building is set up in such a way that it makes sense and the means of defeating Sauron is established early on. This is not the case in most fantasy that it inspired and certainly not in ASoIaF. Also "the Scouring" is only a small part of the narrative of LoTR, rather than as bad or worse than the threat of Sauron! It is kinda manipulative to claim that 3 dragons (or one in the end) are suddenly as bad as the Long Night and too much destructive power for a person to handle, when this hasn't been the case at all in the past. Valyria at it's height and it's Doom - yes, this was the Kind of "Fire" that would be comparable to the Ice of the Others and the LN. Tyrion - I dunno. Neither his show nor his book arc (so far) suggests to me that it is plausible for him to end up where he does in the show. Given how either way he is massively tarnished by his actions, associations and largely responsible for much of the destruction that has already occured and is yet to follow in the books, as he is the one who pits FAegon and Dany against each other and was a huge contributing factor to Dany snapping in the show, due to his ineptitude and disloyalty. He is also very autocratically-minded in the books himself, so... I guess being the author's favorite _really_ pays off? Queen Sansa - I don't know. I have always thought that she is the future of the Starks and the one who will rebuild Winterfell. But I suspect that making her a queen was a sop to the audience after presenting them with 2 evil queens + villanious and very easily toppled Olenna/Ellaria and ineffective Yara, just like Arya killing the NK was a sop for Dany's fall. Would only make sense and feel earned to me with a long time-skip. I don't know what to think about Arya's ending - one would think that she'd be the perfect Mistress of Whisperers _and_ that at least some Starks should stay together and help each other? But maybe the Faceless Men never stop hunting her in the series? She did express an interest in travelling in her PoVs a couple of times, but nothing on this scale. She did briefly wish to become a sailor, but so did Dany. She is no Elissa Farman. Bronn is illiterate, so yea, the best Master of the Coin Evah! Not. It makes sense for him to become Lord Stokeworth, but a believable architect of a new bright future he is not. I honestly don't know about Cersei and Jaime in the books - IMHO, it doesn't make sense to draw out their story like the show did. GRRM needs to trim the PoVs and he made it explicitely clear in the last 2 books that Cersei was only as successful as she was because it suited more capable players for her to be. But that's pretty much at the end with FAegon's arrival in Westeros. And Varys was fully behind FAegon from the start, not to mention responsible for pretty much every realm-destabilising thing that happened since his arrival in Westeros, so he is a villain fully deserving of execution. In fact, the Seven Kingdoms would have been far better off if either Robert or Tywin executed him immediately upon assuming power. What else? I think that the Others have their means of getting through the Wall figured out and don't depend on dumb luck. In fact, I hope that the wight incident was a test and a few of them have already covertly infiltrated the North or will do so early in TWoW. Euron is probably working for them - wittingly or unwittingly and will be a powerful and terrifying villain. Finally, I feel that there are sly hints in the show at a massive greyscale epidemic in Westeros in the books that "could have been" but wasn't started by Jorah's pointless borrowing of JonCon's illness. Also the Bells will clearly have something to do with JonCon in the books, just like the battle at the fozen lake belongs to Stannis. Maybe "see you in 10 years" is an allusion to a 10-year-long time-skip that GRRM intends to implement? Indeed, but show Jon borrows FAegon's plot and in the books Dany will know that FAegon is fake, from multiple sources. Even if Jon's parentage also plays a role in her fall, of which I am not convinced, she'd be understandably jaded and skeptical after the FAegon fiasco.
  6. Maia

    Anyone Going To Watch The Prequel Series

    Yea, I am not sure what they were thinking when they pitched it. They had to know that GoT wouldn't do it's LN justice when there were only 6 episodes remaining. I'd love a show about Valyria, but it would require lots of expensive CGI to do it's justice - i.e. lava rivers flowing through the capital city, volcanoes, very tall towers, lots of dragons, etc. Preferrably it should be set a few years before it's fall featuring Aenar and Daenys the Dreamer, maybe some Velaryon ancestors, Braavos revealing itself, some unlucky characters being carried into slavery, who'd then get involved in the events, etc.
  7. Yea, I have always thought that these theories were based just on Jon/Stark favoritism and never believed that GRRM would go for the bundle of problematic tropes inherent in this direction, particularly not with him making Cersei a "mad queen" too and giving us her PoV. Not to mention all the trolling about female heirs being shafted in WoIaF and FaB, when he apparently intended to prove the bigots right the whole time. Shows what I know, I guess. Found it! It is in the Nerdrotic Review of the episode 5, in the very beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFCj1Izgxpw
  8. To be fair, it is the feature of the books from the beginning that Stark men are presented as "whiter" than they should have been as feudal leaders and victorious generals. They are always the noble, unfairly attacked party who are seen as morally in the right. We never hear about all the civilian casualties and suffering that Ned's army must have caused during the Robellion and how it was fought for personal reasons, we never see the results of Robb's raids on the West and the atrocities that his army commits in the Riverlands are shifted on Roose Bolton, the Karstarks, etc. even though the ultimate responsibility still should have been with Robb. Jon is usually saved by the narrative from making any morally dubious choices, except for Gilly's baby. In hindsight all of this should have been a major clue, I guess. Who knows? I am fairly sure that Dany is going to sack Volon Therys and New Ghis after she grabs the Dothraki and hears that they have been invited by the slavers to attack Meereen, though. Possibly also Yunkai and, of course, Barristan also obligated her to take Pentos. Pretty much LoL at Dany's advisers having to constantly check her violent impulses in the show, when it has been mostly the other way round in the books until now. Yep. My hope has always been that Dany's actions and evidence of the impending Long Night will spark an anti-slavery movement and/or will cause a major Essosi religion or two to adopt the anti-slavery stance as part of their tenets. It would have never been plausible if Dany actually managed to succeed as a liberator by herself. But maybe she is just intended to be a destroyer and a cautionary tale and none of her acts are going to have any positive results whatsoever.
  9. Yea, but I have finally seen bits of that interview of GRRM's, where he hints that people shouldn't be naming their daughters after Dany - they were included in one of the video reviews of the episode 5, I don't remember which. This doesn't give me much hope, sadly. I now honestly don't understand why we spent so much time on her PoVs in Meereen and why GRRM is/was so obssessed with Meerenese Knot. He could have easily trimmed a couple of chapters and given us The Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire in ADwD. Nor can I fathom why he thought that it would be a good idea to have 2 mad queens in the series - since Cersei's PoV shows that she is definitely that. She is becoming obssessed with fire, even. Juxtaposed with a saintly Arthurian hero, no less... Sigh.
  10. But what about the original Roman Empire? Googling reveals that it covered an area that wasn't much smaller, at it's fullest extent. Or Mongol Empire. Naturally, they'd need some real burocracy to run it, but then, shouldn't they be finally evolving more sophisticated modes of administration? Or, you know, Russian Empire? Which didn't even have the above, really and was also multi-ethnic. No dragons in sight, either. Shouldn't the North be more dependent on trade and food assisstance from the South during hard winters after 300 years? They didn't try to leave after the dragons died out, so they must have been getting something out of it. But then, GRRM's depiction of the North was never particularly plausible - they should have had their own language, for one, with the nobles and other elite being bilingual. And their pre-Conquest history with the Riverlands should have been as fraught as that of the Ironborn. It makes zero sense for the Northmen not to have raided south during hard times. Etc.
  11. Maia

    Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

    To be fair, Varamyr was merely a powerful skinchanger and not a greenseer, so what was impossible for him might still be possible for Bran. There are all these legends about people being magically "enthralled" by folks such as the book Night's King and Morgan Banefort. Not that I actually believe in the theory of Bran skinchanging into Dany/Drogon or into anybody else to cause the events of the last 2 episodes. You forget that the Starks were the ones who eradicated the last stronghold of CoTF and their allies in the North. They weren't some great friends of the CoTF - just the opposite, which is why the CoTF are also extinct in the North, where the Andals never reached. Says who? The genealogical tree only tells us that the boys died young and the girls were shafted because of their gender - as happened repeatedly in such cases. Them being one more generation removed from an actual Lord Stark and them likely being children at the time would have made it even easier to side-line them than it was to do the same to their mothers. This is some fairy-tale morality and rather hypocritical, given that the power of all kings and lords and chieftains in ASOIAF is rooted in violence. "People" didn't elect the Starks of old to be Kings in the North - they conquered and massacred and executed child hostages to unite the North and cement their power. When Greatjon spoke about taking his forces home back in AGoT, Robb threatened to storm his castle and hang him on his own gates. Even Mance Raider's claim to leadership was based on violence - him being a celebrated raider, fighting other chieftains and killing those who refused to follow him even after being defeated, etc. And that's with the threat of the Others hanging over the wildlings and making it easier to point them in the same direction. Tormund is a stone-cold killer of northern civilians. Not that any of it matters, the show presentation, which glosses over these uncomfortable truth, being what it is, and possibly even Martin's ultimate plan being what it is.
  12. Maia

    Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

    Please, tell me more about this outline, it sounds very intriguing.
  13. Maia

    Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

    IMHO, that would be just him returning to his original book plot, after taking over Stannis's and part of FAegon's arcs in the show . I doubt that he ever leaves NW or engages in the KITN redux plot in the books, should they ever come out. His arc is very much about the Others, but since the show chose to marginalize them in favor of politics, he had to be given political plots of other characters. And I doubt that there is going to be any certainty of the Others/WWs being truly gone forever, either in the series or in the show. In the show Craster gave 99 sons to WWs, but we have only ever seen a dozen of them. And the NK didn't die after those who made _him_ did, not to mention that such a cheap, but complete victory would irretrievably damage the chances of the prequel show gaining any traction. So, I fully expect to see a "monster egg" shot in the end as far as they are concerned. I have long thought that the previous Long Night wasn't defeated by people in any real sense - they just managed to survive it and maybe stopped the Others from making it worse somehow. And, of course, the greatest curse of all are the humans themselves... Yep. He didn't even set his sword on fire with his blood like Beric did. But then again, the show tries hard to avoid mystical and magical elements, which should be very prominent in his book plot. Nah, I want the show Dany dead now. She was my favourite character too - and I am very disappointed with GRRM for going for this low-hanging fruit, if the elements of her ending weren't wildly taken out of context by the showrunners*, but it is what it is. Nor do I see how Dany could be "green eyes", as neither book Dany's nor Emilia's eyes are green? Also, Arya already killed LF in the show, who at least had green-grey eyes in the books. None of the actors are actually green-eyed, of course, not even the Lannisters, so... * like Connington's/Jorah's grayscale, with the sly mention of how it _might_ have sparked a huge epidemic, as it probably does in the books, battle on a frozen lake, Shireen's burning, likely Jon's ressurection, ice dragons, Braavosi flipping their stances on slavery, etc. The focus was on silly and destructive politics, yes, but always in the shadow of the impending epic environmental disaster. And some of political pay-offs are tightly tied to that - Robert's profligacy, for instance _should_ have resulted in severe lack of resources for dealing with the Winter. Ditto Robb's neglect of the actual administration of the North and subsequent fighting there, devastation of the Riverlands, etc. There should be massive famines, epidemics, etc. It would be incredibly cheap of GRRM to skip on the consequences of all of this just to write about a bit more of the nobles squabbling, but completely divorced from the struggle for sheer survival, like the show did. I mean, it is clear that there must be fighting over resources and such, humans being what they are, but people also need to band together somewhat. Stannis's arc after his defeat on the Blackwater is all about the Others. And some stuff happening in Essos is also connected to the imminent Long Night, like the actions of the Red Priests and possibly even whatever happens between Dany and the Dothraki after ADwD. And the thing is - the Others aren't even the main threat in the books. From the World book it is clear that while they did make it to some parts of Essos the last time and they did terrorize Westeros, they weren't this overwhelming force. Even in Nan's stories they mostly haunted the woods outside human settlements. No, the Long Night is, the epic 10-year-long winter that they are due after their 10-year-long summer is. And it is a global phenomenon, not just some Westerosi or Northern issue. The series isn't just man against man, but also man against nature/supernatural. Now, of course GRRM can wimp out on all of this like the showrunners did, but it would be a huge letdown if he does, IMHO.
  14. Maia

    GRRM vs #metoo

    Sure, but she was incapable of having other children after his birth. Generally, a brief look at some genealogical trees at wikipedia and elsewhere shows me that while it was usual for royal and high noble women to marry at 14, they normally had first children or at least those who lived at 18 and later. Younger than that and particularly also having children at such ages was an exception rather than the rule. And Westerosi has maesters, who know that it is a bad idea for anybody who wants healthy offspring. So, I am not sure why GRRM doubled down on this in his history books. In AGoT Viserys(!) implied that Drogo was somewhat disgusting for wanting Dany at her age and still looking childish. It doesn't matter. Medieval women always had female attendants - both companions and servants. Both Cat and Cersei should have had them. And there is no reason to think that Cat in particular couldn't have had a female confidant, as many ladies had iRL. Unlike Cersei she was not hyper-sexist and didn't think that other women were worthless. There was a conspicious lack of named adult women among the population in WF - it were just Cat and Old Nan until Osha is brought in. Both Vayon Poole and Ser Roderick were conveniently widowed, Cat implausibly didn't have any ladies-in-waiting or personal maids, etc. It was one of those things that didn't make Winterfell entirely believable to me, and was also a typical ommission for writers to make, because there is a long-standing tradition of seeing women as boring and disposable in fiction, unless they are exceptional in some way.
  15. Maia

    Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

    But Jon Connington is. He also had a decade-and-half to dayly regret his unsufficient ruthlessness when it counted, would be desperate _and_ he has a strong association with the Bells. I have noticed that the show occasionally uses motives from the books out of context - like battle on the frozen lake with combatants falling through the ice. Maybe this is another such repurposing. Oh, yea, didn't they briefly show some dead bodies even and had Dickon talk with Jaime about killing? But all those wonderful counselors kept saying that there was no rush to put an end to Cersei. There was no chance that she would have used the forces that she pledged to the war against the NK and then held back to attack their other possible allies in the south! Like the Vale, for instance. None at all! I am sure that Dany just up and left, Cersei would have totally left the North alone, too! Sansa is smart, after all... And for the record, I like her in the books.