Frey family reunion

I think it’s possible that you may both be right.

I agree with this. It was complicated. The impression that I got was that York’s primary concern was for the betterment of his people. That included freeing them from the compulsion of the red thirst. Now I do think he envisioned a world where his people could coexist with the humans. I think he saw this as necessary for the advancement of his people. One thing that I took from this book was that GRRM isn’t out to necessarily subvert tropes. Instead he starts with a common genre trope (here the good vampires protecting the humans from the bad vampires) and then made things more complicated.

I think they refer to those books as "alternative history" as opposed to fantasy. Whatever that distinction means.

My takeaway wasn't that York was looking to necessarily looking to create unity between the two races. My takeaway was that York believed that the red thirst effectively enslaved his people, preventing them from reaching their full potential. I think he believed that humans had advanced further than his species because they weren't beholden to the red thirst.

I'll agree with you up to the point when they lost their dragons. After that there doesn't appear to be anything quite so special about being a Targaryen, other than the sovereignty their forefathers and mothers created. But when they had dragons... that seems to create a hierarchy whether you like it or not.

There seems to be an unwritten rule among fantasy writers that the technology in their worlds had to be the technology that existed some time prior to the first printing press (1430). Which is kind of funny when you think about it.

I definitely agree that there is a possibility that Dany's origin story as told to her by Viserys doesn't jive with her earliest childhood memories of a house with a red door with a lemon tree outside. And I agree that the author is pointing us in the direction of Dorne when it comes to lemon trees. And the only reason that Viserys would lie to Dany and tell her that she was born on Dragonstone and fled with him to Braavos is that Viserys needs to convince the world, starting with Dany, that she is his sister, when she is in fact not. And the only reason that I can think of that this deception would be necessary is that Viserys needed a "trueborn" sister as a bargaining chip to obtain an army. The very scenario that plays out when Viserys hands her over to Drogo in exchange for Drogo promising Viserys that his horde will invade Westeros on his behalf. My suspicion is that GRRM is playing around with the idea of magical bloodlines, especially when it comes to the Targs and their ability to hatch and bond with dragons. At the time of the rebellion the main Targaryen line hadn't hatched a dragon in well over one hundred years. And when you look back at their family tree. It's fairly easy to see why. Their line is descended from two people who never had any connection with dragons. Viserys II, who's dragon egg never hatched, and Larra Rogare, the daughter of a Lys banker. You can also see that the author basically split off the Targaryen line into a number of branches around this time. We have Baela Targaryen and Alyn Velaryon presumably whom the current House Velaryon descended from. We have a possible Targaryen line hidden through the birth of Viserys Plumm the son of Elaena Targaryen and allegedly her cousin Aegon IV. We have the descendants of Daena the defiant through House Blackfyre, apparently with both paternal and maternal lines. We even have another Targaryen House of sorts in House Longwater, descended from Elaena and Alyn Targaryen. So my suspicion is that a number of these extant lines may have reintegrated (possibly combing with House Targaryen) to give birth to Dany. Now an interesting question is that if so, was this mere happenstance, or was it specifically planned/engineered? If there was a manipulation of the bloodlines to try and bring about the "purer" bloodline of Aegon I and his sisters, then my guess is that Rhaegar may have been involved. Especially if Rhaegar was specifically studying and trying to bring about the various prophecies that he seemed so obsessed about. If Rhaegar believed that dragons were a necessary component to the Prince that was Promised (as Aemon certainly seemed to believe), then it would not surprise me if Rhaegar was behind Dany's origin in some way. Now I'm not necessarily sure that Rhaegar would have to be the father, although certainly possible. My favorite pet theory/crackpot, is that GRRM may have created an inverse of the King Arthur origin for Dany. In the King Arthur mythos, Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon, the King of Britain took a fancy to Igraine, so her husband locks her in an impregnable castle for protection. Merlin cast an illusion (i.e. glamor) on Uther so that he would appear to be Igraine's husband. Under this deception he conceives Arthur with Igraine. Perhaps in the chaos of the last weeks of the Targaryen dynasty, Rhaegar engineers his own deception. Viserys and Rhaella Targaryen leave King's Landing in a midnight voyage to Dragonstone under the nose of Aerys. Another is then glamored to appear as the queen. This is the one who is "raped" by Aerys after he burns Chelsted, and this is the one who Jaime sees leaving the Red Keep for the docks under a hood in the morning.

GRRM actually addressed this topic in one of the SSMs:

No not Ned.

Suffice it to say that Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna isn’t the only possible parentage that Ned would want to keep hidden from the world. Reread the chapter where Ned confronts Cersei about his suspicions of her incestuous relationship with Jaime, and ask yourself why Ned is being so sympathetic to her. This is also the Ned chapter that immediately precedes his dream of Lyanna crying bloody tears in her crypt, reminding Ned of his promise to her.

I wasn't thinking Ashara.

Close, but you guessed the wrong bastard of Winterfell as Brandon’s son.

It’s not really a great motivation though, is it? I mean, my mother’s mother’s father was Daemon Blackfyre who should have been the ruler of Westeros, so I’m going to take up his banner. I mean I guess it could be, it just isn’t very compelling. Especially since we have a much better motivation in being in the position to train someone to have your values and vision and then through chicanery drum up enough support to help him take the Iron Throne. And then rule Westeros as you see fit through him being a proxy. Now if your point is that Varys and/or Illyrio motivation to rule Westeros specifically is that they are descended from exiled Westerosis’, and they (like the Golden Company) just want to return “home”, than I guess I can see that. Perhaps Varys is descended from Aerion and Illyrio is descended from some “maternal line” offshoot of Blackfyre. I guess that could account for Moqorro’s vision of dragons both bright and dark. After all there has to be a reason that GRRM has decided to give this much background on House Blackfyre.

Maybe. My biggest issue with this scenario is that it relies on Illyrio pretending that Young Griff isn't his son, and going to his grave presumably without Young Griff being aware that Illyrio is his father. That's a tough pill for a father to swallow. It's also interesting that we don't have any evidence that Illyrio has any children despite the fact that he's had at least two marriages. It may very well be that Illyrio can't have children. Which doesn't mean he cant' fall in love with a woman who may be carrying someone else's child. And his motivation becomes putting his beloved Serra's son on the throne, even if she died before Young Griff was old enough to know her. Not sure what it means to have a "female line of Blackfyre". Presumably the Blackfyres were similar to other houses and they passed on their birth name to their sons. While the daughters would have been married into other houses, and they and their descendants lose the Blackfyre birth name. There are no maternal houses in Westeros or Essos, except, in a way one. "House Black Pearl" is a brothel which passes on title of the Black Pearl (consider it a family name) from mother to daughter, in an unbroken female line. Perhaps the series only recognized maternal "House". Illyrio's grin when he talks about the male Blackfyre line ending, leaves open the idea of a female Blackfyre line, but also makes me wonder if he's hiding a jape. So I wonder if there is a brothel in Lys that is similar to the Black Pearl. Where a title is passed down from mother to daughter, where a straight line can be drawn to a daughter of Daemon Blackfyre (or perhaps Daena the defiant), and this is the maternal Blackfyre line that Illyrio is referencing.

That's an interesting point. We're already seeing signs of of petulance with Young Griff, and his choice of a "Kingsguard" seems a bit questionable, at least to Connington. The problem with this experiment of Varys (if Varys and Illyrio are actually pulling a Pygmalion) is that in order for Young Griff to win the throne, he has to gain the support of a large amount of the commonfolk. And to gain their support, they have to buy the fact that he is Rhaegar's son, someone with a "legitimate claim" to the throne. And by all accounts that means, they also have to convince Young Griff that he is Rhaegar's son, and the Iron Throne is his birthright. Which in turn starts to lead to Young Griff getting a sense of entitlement, which is the very thing that Varys was railing against when he was criticizing those who were handed the throne by birthright.

Sorry, I was being douchey.

I think your completely missing the point. You are assuming that Young Griff is a nobody, if he isn't descended from some royal line. (Of course ironically enough the Blackfyres weren't really a royal line were they?). What Varys is suggesting is that it shouldn't matter who your daddy was. That line of thinking leads to bad rulers like Aerys. So Varys and Illyrio have taken it upon themselves to "engineer" a ruler, through education and a humble background. The only caveat is that Young Griff has to look the part, to convince the ignorant rabble that he has a "legitimate" claim to the throne. ETA: The above is certainly true enough for Varys, he practically says as much to Kevan. As for Illyrio, well that may be a trickier motivation. My guess is Young Griff might be Serra's son, which may be one of the persons Illyrio owed a debt of affection to. Now whether or not that means Young Griff is also Illyrio's son, I'm not so sure. We don't really have any evidence of Illyrio having any children despite the fact he has had at least two marriages. So it could be that Illyrio couldn't have any children. And if he originally brought Serra in as a "servant" for his house, it's well established that Illyrio is more than willing to share his servants with certain guests in his household.

Well sure, that's the case with everything Illyrio tells Tyrion. We have to assume he's mixing truth with lies. Actually Illyrio being the model for the statue fits very well with him being an impoverished braavos. There is a difference between having a statue made for you and being the model of a statue. And look carefully at what Illyrio says: And the statue in question was: Just because Illyrio may have modeled for the statue, does not mean that this was a statue commemorating Illyrio. In fact the name of the statue could have simply been Naked Bravos or Young Bravos. And it just so happened that the sculptor took a fancy to Illyrio or thought that he looked like a good model for this theme. Which is historically how it happened. (For example the famous real life Renaissance sculptor Donatello was notorious (in the time period) for constantly having nude, adolescent or even preadolescent boys in his studio whom he used as models.) So Illyrio making extra money to pose as a model for a sculptor who wanted to celebrate the young Bravos that would frequent Essos is not a stretch at all. The assumption is that Illyrio after making his fortune purchased the statue for himself so he could have it as a commemoration of his lost youth and beauty. Yes, that's my thought. I don't think that Illyrio and Varys' grand plan is another attempt at a Blackfyre rebellion. I think that's a little bit too mundane for what GRRM is probably planning. I think that this is an attempt to put a ruler on the throne that was specifically educated and humbled by a modest upbringing. As opposed to someone taking the throne because his daddy had it before him. In fact Illyrio and Varys very much seem like GRRM unlikely protagonists. (But of course GRRM is hinting that the best laid plans of mice and cheesemongers will probably go awry, especially since it seems that Young Griff has turned out to be a bit of a petulant, impulsive lad.) But returning to the Blackfyre angle a bit. Illyrio seems pretty matter of fact when he says that the male line of Blackfyres died out with Maelys the Monstrous. Which of course begs the question, what does it mean to have a female Blackfyre line? I think the clue is the only truly maternal "houses" that we're given in the story are houses of ill repute, like the Black Pearl brothel. An unbroken line of mothers passing on the family business to daughters that date back to the original Black Pearl and Aegon IV. So I do wonder if Lys may have had a similar type of brothel. Mothers passing on the family business to daughters with an unbroken maternal line dating back to one of the Targaryen or Blackfyres.

I agree and ... And it just so happens that Illyrio and Varys have been training a prince to appear from seemingly nowhere to take the Iron Throne. Perhaps this thread is barking up the wrong tree that Illyrio and Varys are antagonistic to the Iron Bank.

It’s probably the eyes that make me think of Ramsey But you’re right there is a bit of Reek in Billy. Perhaps a hint as to Ramsay’s future.

Billy reminded me a little bit of Ramsay. I also got a vibe of Brynden Rivers from Joshua York, but maybe because they were both sort of mysterious (and albinos) I’m ok with the Euron Julian comparison, I kind of see it. i don’t see the Tyrion Abner Marsh comparison at all though. Tyrion is witty and a schemer (he loves the game of thrones) . Abner is the exact opposite of that. I’d almost equate Abner with Davos. But the most interesting comparison may be between the pale “vampire” race in Fevre Dream and how the Others were described in legend. Cold, dead things, pale white skins. Thirst for human blood. Hated the touch of the sun, a human child is fed to Julian’s dead servants.

I’m not sure of all the business of Gods being in a comet, but for arguments sake, let’s assume that someone has called down a comet to scourge the planet. Comets like planets don’t tend to travel in a straight line, in fact they orbit stars much like planets do. So if someone were to cast a comet into the planet, it’s more probable that the comet would stop circling the star and begin orbiting the planet with an orbit that gets closer and closer to the planet with every pass. in which case you would expect the comets sightings will become more frequent and the comet will look progressively larger after every pass...

Do we have any evidence of this? Nevermind, I think I know what you’re referring to. Only the superstitious like Cat. Varys never claims to be a sorcerer. ETA And yes, Illyrio as well Of course we can’t discount that this is’t just hyperbole and flattery from Varys friend. ? Not sure about that. He seems not to be a big fan of the current power structure in Westeros, and notes how damaging the game of thrones is on the populace. Now that ultimately may make him a hypocrite, we have to see how his plan to crown Young Griff will affect the small folk, but I don’t think that this is the same as wanting to destroy the realm. I think it may be more accurate to say he wants to change the realm.

I’m not so sure of that at all. Illyrio seems very proud of the fact that he and Varys were so successful in their ill gotten ventures that he, a poor sell sword, became successful enough to marry into the Prince’s family, the same Prince who then banned him from the palace because his second wife was a slave. He and Varys than groom Young Griff to be a ruler, someone grew up amongst the poor, and was trained to be good ruler, and not because it was just his birthright to rule. Which of course cast doubt on Young Griff being the son of Rhaegar. But would fit in perfectly if Young Griff was in actuality the son of a Lyseni prostitute/slave. Which is why I bring up Pygmalion (and I think the sculptor Pytho Malanon is a sly wink and a nod to the sculptor Pygmalion), I think Varys and Illyrio may be playing the parts of Henry Higgins and Colonel Pickering. They are training someone from a lower caste of society to impersonate a noble. In this case, they are looking to put their pupil on the Iron Throne.