Jump to content

Frey family reunion

Members
  • Content count

    3,576
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Frey family reunion

  1. Frey family reunion

    Names for new Targaryens

    I’d go with Daario if it’s a boy (chances are it might be his kid anyway) and Samantha if it’s a girl (or maybe Satina).
  2. Why would we expect guards to be traveling with Lyanna? When Ned and his daughters traveled from Winterfell to King’s Landing Arya was running around unsupervised all the time. Why would it be any different for Lyanna?
  3. Do we really know this? It’s a tale told to Dany by Viserys, presumably, and who knows where Viserys got his information from. Some singer perhaps? Tales always seem to grow in the telling. But however Lyanna was spirited away, Ned seems to lay at least part of the blame on Lyanna, when he comments that Lyanna’s wolfs Blood led her to an early grave. I’m not sure that Ned would have necessarily come to that conclusion if Lyanna had been carried off by sword point.
  4. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    The issue has less to do with the mystery of Jon’s parents in my opinion, but more to do with the significance of the tower of joy. The real question that should be asked is if Lyanna wasn’t in the tower of joy, why were the Kingsguards there, why did Rhaegar name it the tower of joy, why did Ned travel there with a hand picked group of northern men and why was a battle to the death necessary. My guess is that the tower of joy was the culmination of Rhaegar’s story arc. And Rhaegar’s story arc seems centered on the Prince that was Promised prophecy, and Summerhall. And both of these ideas also seem to revolve around the return of dragons to the story. And most magic involved in this book seems center around the necessity of a blood sacrifice.
  5. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    Probably the best place to display hubris.
  6. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    Just out of curiosity, have you read any of GRRM’s other books?
  7. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    For GRRM’s motivation, i think it’s fair to say that he certainly wants the reader to jump to that conclusion. So the question is does GRRM want the reader to come to the correct conclusion or the incorrect conclusion? If George is looking to validate the reader’s expectations than he’s leading us to the correct conclusion. If he wants to subvert the reader’s expectation than he’s probably leading us to the wrong conclusion. As for why Ned dreams of these two events together I think there is also two possible answers. Either, these events did take place at the same location and time, or these events occurred at two different locations and times but there is a common thread between the two which causes Ned (at least subconsciously) to make a connection between the two events.
  8. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    So you’re saying a single dream can’t encapsulate two different events?
  9. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    Actually even the dream doesn’t place Lyanna in the tower of joy as far as we know. The dream starts at the Battle at the tower of joy, and then the dream shifts to Lyanna’s bed of blood. We don’t know if the two events take place in the same location. ETA: it’s also not really accurate to say that what we read is Ned describing a dream. It starts out that way, but at some point we’re taken directly into the dream itself. We know this because we’re present at the moment that Ned wakes up from the dream. So I suppose it’s up to the reader to determine the moment that we shift from a description of the dream to the actual dream. But regardless, whether we’re directly inside the dream or we’re listening to a description of the dream, I don’t think that changes the issue. You are taking the chronology of a dream and making assumptions that the events in the dream take place at the same location and the same time.
  10. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 220 and the nature of magic

    I think I agree with Dany on this one. Jon is supposed to be the heir to the realm, but the only people that know it are his brother and his best friend? Sounds like BS to me too, Dany.
  11. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 220 and the nature of magic

    I’m not sure I’d read that much into it. I think it probably just reflects the practicality that most of the traffic on this site will be from show viewers as opposed to book readers while the HBO show is on the air.
  12. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 220 and the nature of magic

    If Jon entered Ghost during the stabbing, the possibility that Jon is dead would be what keeps Jon trapped inside of Ghost. Now if Jon is inside Ghost, what would happen if Jon’s body is then subsequently resurrected? Who or what would Jon be resurrected as then?
  13. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    I would agree. Actually, I think the time period between the Battle of the Trident and the tower of joy is probably greater than that. We’re really only given three (roughly) defined time frames of the events that occurred during the rebellion. (Actually four with the fact that Rossart was Hand for a fortnight) We are told that close to a year elapsed between the start of the war and the Sack of King’s Landing. We’re told that the Siege of Storm’s End lasted close to a year. And we’re told that a year elapsed between Cat and Ned’s wedding and Cat arriving in Winterfell to find Jon already present. So if the time period between the start of the war and the Sack of King’s Landing is roughly equal to the time period of the Siege of Storm’s End then the time between the Sack and Ned’s lifting of the Siege should roughly be equal to the time it took for Arryn and Robert to win the Battle of Gullstown, for Robert to then travel by sea to Storm’s End, for Robert to gather his troops at Storms’ End and win the battles around Summerhall, and finally for Robert to lose to Randyll Tarly’s forces at the Battle of Ashford. That seems to be a considerable amount of time in my estimation. And then of course we have to add the time it would have taken for Ned and company to have traveled to the tower of joy. (And since I don’t believe that Lyanna died at the tower of joy, I’d have to add the time it took for Ned to travel to Starfall, which is where I believe Lyanna actually died.) I understand the temptation to put Jon’s birth around the time of the tower of joy, but I’m no longer convinced of that at all. Either the SSM we’re discussing is wrong, and Jon is a good bit less than 8 to 9 months older than Dany, or Dany wasn’t conceived when Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard over Aerys rape of Rhaella, or Jon was born a good bit before the tower of joy battle. For a number of reasons, I’m going with option three, even though I do concede the possibility that any of these options could be correct.
  14. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    Heh, I was wondering when you would bring this up. Ok, let’s take a look at GRRM’s quote and see if we can extrapolate a time when Jon may have been born. GRRM may very well be lining up Jon’s birth with Dany’s conception. And interestingly enough, we have a pretty good idea when Dany’s conception occurred. It happened when Chelsted was burned and when Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard over the bedchamber as Rhaella was raped. In other words before the Battle of the Trident. It also probably occurred while Rhaegar was busy marshaling the troops. This time period makes sense in a way. That Aerys worse moments occur when Rhaegar isn’t around. Rhaegar is nowhere around when Aerys burned Brandon and Rickard, and it’s very likely that Rhaegar may have been away marshaling the troops when Aerys burned Chelsted and raped Rhaella. The only thing that would dispute this is Jaime’s recollection that Rossart was named Hand after Chelsted. But of course the simple explanation is that Aerys simply waited until Rhaegar’s death to name another Hand. Aerys really only needed a Hand to fight the war, and Rhaegar then would serve as de facto Hand. It seems unlikely that Aerys would have named someone else who could have interfered in his plans like Chelsted did. So Aerys simply waits and names Rossart Hand when Aerys decides to go ahead with his plan to blow up King’s Landing. It also probably places Dany’s conception a decent amount of time before the Battle of the Trident. At least during the time when Rhaegar was still marshaling the troops. So in other words, it’s very possible that Jon was born during that nebulous time period between the Battle of Bells and the Battle of the Trident. Enough time after the Battle of Bells for Rhaegar to return and be in the midst of marshaling the troops. And this very long winded explanation is that yes, I think Rhaegar would have certainly known about Dany’s pregnancy before he returned to King’s Landing from the “south”.
  15. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    But have you ever crossed any mountains with a baby in one arm and your dead sister in the other?
  16. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    As Feather point out, the Prince’s Pass isn’t really a convenient pass to or from Starfall. In fact, it may be longer and more arduous to go through the mountains to the Pass, then it would be to go to North through the Mountains straight into the Reach. There isn’t any reason to assume that Ned found her in the tower, unless we assume that Ned’s dreams are limited to scenes that only took place in close geographic and temporal proximity.
  17. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    There does appear to be an air of inevibility to their encounter. Both sides seemed prepared to encounter each other and both sides seemed fairly resigned to the fact that this was to be a battle to the death. But if the tower was merely a meeting place for a duel, why was it said that Rhaegar named it the tower of joy? I agree Lyanna was not inside the tower, but I disagree that this meeting was merely the last battle of the rebellion. The presence of the three kingsguards, at least two of who are close confidants of Rhaegar, at a place specifically named by Rhaegar implies to me that this was to be the culmination of Rhaegar’s story arc. The three kingsguards having taken an oath to finish what Rhaegar had started.
  18. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    I’m in complete agreement that Lyanna wasn’t inside the tower of joy, and my guess was that she was never inside the tower of joy. There is nothing about a tower that can be single handedly pulled down to create eight cairns located in a mountain pass which during wartime is mainly used for Dorne to have their army gather which is consistent with housing someone, especially a pregnant girl for any significant length of time. But of course we have to answer the next logical question. If Lyanna wasn’t in the tower of joy, why does Rhaegar refer to it as the tower of joy? I think the answer lies in what Rhaegar’s true passion was. It’s evident that like Melisandre, Rhaegar seems very influenced by prophecy. Specifically prophecies involving the Prince that was Promised, bleeding stars, and being reborn among salt and smoke. Melisandre believes these prophecies are precursors to the coming fo the Long Night. Aemon seems to agree with Melisandre on that point when he states that if the Battle for the Dawn is coming “where is the prince that was promised”. In other words the Prince that was Promised in Aemon’s mind needs come about to fight the Battle for the Dawn. If Aemon believes that, it seems a safe bet that Rheagar believed that as well. I think we need to look at Rhaegar’s curious actions at Harrenhal and his alleged interest in Lyanna and her subsequent abduction through the lens of Rhaegar’s belief in prophecy. In other words, like Melisandre, Rhaegar seems to be trying to steer events to meet his view of what needs to occur to fulfill the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised. And it seems that the Prince that was Promised prophecy also involves dragons. At least Aemon seems to believe that Dany may be the Princess that was Promised due to her dragons. In fact he said that the dragons proved it. And couple that with the belief that the place that Rhaegar truly loved was Summerhall. And the Summerhall tragedy specifically seems to be linked to this dream of dragons. If Rhaegar and Melisandre may have been interpreting the same or similar prophecies, and if both Melisandre and Rhaegar seemed to think that dragons were an integral part of the prophecy, is it that much of a stretch to believe that both believed that the same type of sacrifice was needed to bring dragons back into existence? So I wonder if perhaps, if Rhaegar named it the tower of joy, because he did anticipate a birth to occur there. But perhaps he’s not referring to the birth of a human child, but instead the birth of a dragon, or dragons. Or perhaps the tower of joy was where the prince that was promised prophecy was finally going to be fulfilled. If this required a sacrifice or sacrifices of kingsblood, perhaps to include a child of Lyanna’s, then that may explain why Ned made a secret mission to the tower. A mission that was made without Robert’s knowledge because it specifically dealt with rescuing Lyanna’s child a child she had with someone other than Robert.
  19. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    But why does Ned arrive at this meeting place with only a small hand picked group of men? Wouldn’t Robert want a piece of the action or perhaps someone that Robert was close to? The makeup of Ned’s “dirty seven” and the obvious secrecy surrounding their place of burial (even their wives are apparently not told where their husbands are buried or why) seems to imply that this was a secret mission. But my more significant issue is more from a literary standpoint than a logical one. If Martin is going to tease a significant event at the tower of joy (i.e. Jon is Rhaegar’s rightful heir, Lyanna dies at the tower and makes Ned promise to protect her child, the usual pablum) and if that turns out to be a misdirect, then the reality of the event should have equal or greater significance to the overall story. And by that I mean, either major significance to the external conflict of the story, or a major reveal or significance for a character’s internal conflict, or perhaps a combination of both. I think this is a very valid point. It also highlights the incongruity of Ned and Howland taking baby Jon, and Lyanna’s body with them to return a sword to Starfall. Either they take an extremely arduous land route or they seek passage on a ship to travel around Dorne to arrive at Starfall with Jon to an unexpected welcome. Either option doesn’t seem a very good reason to pack up Jon and bring him to Starfall. The only reason that I can think of (assuming of course that Jon was at the tower of joy) is that there is someone at Starfall they wanted to bring the child back to.
  20. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    You mean other than Jon Snow
  21. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    Maybe, but there are several different scenarios that can be considered, assuming that Lyanna wasn’t in the tower of joy. Because after all, Ned had to have gone to the tower for a reason, and this reason did not seem to involve Robert Baratheon, but only involved a small number of people that from all appearances would have been extremely loyal to the Starks. So what would Ned have a concern about around this time frame that he had to keep a tight secret and something that could not have involved Robert Baratheon? The most logical reason that Ned would have gone on a secret mission to the tower of joy is that it involved, not Lyanna, but a child of Lyanna’s. Specifically a child that was known not to have been Robert’s child. Perhaps in order of likelihood: 1. Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall, and like Elia, after the birth of her first child was left bedridden because of a difficult pregnancy. The Kingsguards take Lyanna’s child. Ned after locating Lyanna (or having someone close to Ned locate Lyanna) sets forth on a mission to find Lyanna’s child and return the child to her. Ned tracks them down at the tower of joy. Ned retrieves Jon, and he and Howland return Jon to Starfall because Lyanna’s located at Starfall. (Which in my opinion is a much more compelling reason to travel to Starfall than returning a sword to House Dayne). Lyanna’s death then occurs after Ned returns to Starfall. 2. Lyanna gives birth to twins at Starfall. The kingsguards take one of the twins. Ned finds Lyanna at Starfall. She elicits a promise from Ned and then she dies. He and his company set out to find the Kingsguards that took Lyanna’s child, but they have to leave Lyanna’s other child behind at Starfall, because they can’t take him or her with them. They find the other child at the tower of joy, kill the kingsguards and then return to Starfall because that’s the location of Lyanna’s other child whom they have to retrieve.
  22. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    But why would Ned have moved her to Starfall of all places? Especially after he just killed Arthur Dayne, and married Cat instead of Ashara Dayne. I think if Lyanna was at Starfall ( and I suspect she was) then she was brought there by either Rhaegar and/or his kingsguards. It’s the most defensible fortification in control of the family of his closest confidant. Ned’s dream is the flimsiest piece of evidence that Lyanna was ever at the tower of joy. Our dreams can associates two different memories other than those memories being in the same time and location. I hate to keep coming back to this SSM but: Why is GRRM cautioning not to take Ned’s dream too literally? Ned’s memory of the events corroborates fighting the three kingsguards at a place Rhaegar named “tower of joy”, and Ned’s memory corroborates being with Lyanna when she elicited a promise from him. But Ned’s memories never corroborate that Lyanna was actually inside or at the tower of joy. So for the above reader to assume that Lyanna is in the tower, she is basing this assumption on Ned’s dream. And Ned’s dream only. And GRRM then cautions her not to take the dream too literally. As for Ned’s memory of three kingsguards, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood, Ned is describing his dream not an actual event. In other words Ned has a recurring dream of the three kingsguards a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood. His subconscious at least is associating these events together, which is why he dreams of these events. But that’s not the same thing as Ned having a memory of Lyanna being inside the tower of joy.
  23. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    I’d argue a more compelling reason for Ned traveling from the tower of joy to Starfall, than taking returning a sword. I would suggest that Ned travelled to the tower of joy with a small number of hand picked men he could trust because his mission wasn’t to free or find Lyanna, but instead his mission was to find and free Lyanna’s child. And the reason he makes the hazardous journey back to Starfall wasn’t really to return a sword, but instead to bring Lyanna’s child back to her at Starfall.
  24. Frey family reunion

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    To be fair, I’d argue that the TOJ doesn’t imply that she was at the tower of joy or gave birth to the tower of joy. The dream is separated into two distinct scenes, separated by a surreal image Then presumably the scene shift to “Lyanna in her bed of blood”. Even though it seems that Eddard is woken up before we get a real glimps of that scene. But we don’t know that Lyanna’s bed of blood was in the “tower long fallen”. Only that the dream consisted of three parts in Ned’s mind: 1. Three knights in white cloaks 2. Tower long fallen and 3. Lyanna in her bed of blood. We can associate 1 and 2 together because Ned verifies the fight between the three kingsguards and his companions in his memory and he associates the fight and their burial with the tower of joy being a bitter memory. But nowhere in his memories does he associate Lyanna’s death with the tower of joy. Obviously he makes a connection between 1. The three knights of the kingsguards and 2. The tower long fallen with 3. Lyanna in her bed of blood. But that connection does not have to be one of immediate location and time. In other words Ned can be making a connection between his battle at the tower of joy with Lyanna being on her death bed without that connection being that Lyanna was actually in her bed of blood in the tower long fallen. ETA: and the fact that GRRM warns a reader about taking a fever dream too literally at least implies that GRRM is warning the reader about assuming that Lyanna was inside the tower of joy based on Ned’s dream.
  25. Frey family reunion

    R+L=J v.166

    The Martells are referenced two sentences before, yet the Dornish troops are referenced one sentence before, so why couldn't Martin be referring to the Dornish troops' anger over Elia's treatment as opposed to the Martells? For that matter, GRRM could have specified that it was the Martell's anger over Rhaegar's treatment of Elia, but he doesn't. He uses the more general term "Dornishmen". Now Dornishmen can refer to the Dornish troops, and the Martells, and generally refer to the people of Dorne. Or Dornishmen could be just the Dornish troops but not the Martells. I think GRRM is being purposely vague here for a reason. He doesn't necessarily want to be that specific. If he meant House Martell, I think he would have stated the Martells's anger over the treatment of Elia, and Doran's own cautiousness were the two factors that muted Dorne's initial response to the rebellion. But nope he chooses not to. Regardless, you are acting like Doran and the Martells can be separated from the wishes and feelings of the Dornish people. But as we're made aware of in AFFC and ADWD, Doran is painfully aware of the overriding sentiment of the people of his nation. So if Dorne as a whole were angry over Rhaegar's treatment of Elia, than that would certainly be a factor in Doran being reticent to commit troops to the war. But regardless it doesn't change my initial argument, that Starfall is a much more likely place to have put Elia than an old abandoned watchtower in a mountain pass, who's primary purpose during wartime is passage of troops to and from Dorne. If Doran was angry at Rhaegar's treatment of Elia over Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna, then it seems completely loopy to put her in an old abandoned, broken (your words) lightly defended watchtower, where Doran Martells's army would pass back and forth. Or to put Lyanna in the lands and control of House Fowler, one of the Martell's strongest allies in Dorne. It would be much more probable that Lyanna would be in Starfall, though while in Dorne, it is certainly remote enough and protected enough from the mountains to be hidden from Doran's view. And while there could be a danger of word leaking out (assuming the people in the castle actually know who Lyanna is) I think the danger is being overstated. The people in the castle are either Daynes, their knights, or their servants, or the immediate family of their knights and servants. Everyone has a vested interest in Starfall not being burned to the ground by Robert Baratheon. We're not talking about a city, or even a town, this is a lone castle on an island in the mountains. Of course there is a risk to Lord Dayne, I would even argue a tremendous risk, but to say that he would refuse a request from Rhaegar or more significantly a request from Lord Dayne's brother, the Sword of the Morning, unquestionably Starfall's favorite and most influential "son", I would disagree. Nor do I find the argument that Rhaegar would not have put Lord Dayne in that position compelling. Please. We are acting like we really know Rhaegar and what he would do and wouldn't do. If Rhaegar were such a fine and upstanding man, you would assume that he wouldn't take a 15 or 16 year old girl and hide her from her family, hiding her pregnancy from her family, and thus risking the outbreak of a war that is going to cause numerous deaths and suffering throughout the land, but here we are. My opinion is that Rhaegar's actions are influenced by the Prince that Was Promised prophecy, and the prophecy of bleeding stars, and being reborn in smoke and salt. In other words, prophecies that are directly tied to the coming of a Long Night and a savior needed to win the battle for the dawn. The same sacrifices he makes with his own kingdom, the same sacrifices he makes in risking war, and hiding a young girl, so she gives birth to someone integral in Rhaegar's plans, are the same sacrifices that would lead him to secrete her in Starfall so she and more importantly her unborn child can be properly cared for. It seems that you are making as many assumptions as I am, perhaps even more. But in reply to your argument, an abandoned old broken down watchtower is not suitable accommodations for a pregnant girl for an extended period of time. Not if one is all concerned about her health, or the health of the child. Nor can it be suitably defended. But the other problem is that the Pass is where Doran gathers his army. They don't just move through the pass, because of Doran's cautious nature, they actually stay in the Pass, and live there for a time. To argue that no one would check out this tower, especially if there are signs that it's being manned, (and don't we have knights of the Kingsguard gaurding Lyanna under the your theory?) is unrealistic. Even if the army was just moving through it seems naive to think that no one would observe any knights about this tower, and go check it out. So not only would Rhaegar risk someone discovering Lyanna, but perish the thought, he would risk Lyanna being discovered and raped by horny Dornishmen in the army. Something that frequently happens during war time. Heck maybe that's why Jon is so dark complected, his father is really a salty Dornish soldier . But the problem is traveling to Starfall doesn't really cover Ned's tracks does it? It would make more sense if Ned claimed that Jon was Ashara's son. So he then goes to Starfall to explain where he got Jon. But he doesn't. In fact travelling to Starfall just causes Ned to come up with another story, that he was returning Arthur's sword to Starfall. It also causes the rumor and speculation apparently, that Jon is Ashara's son, a rumor that really seems to anger Ned. I also don't think that covering his tracks would be a very compelling reason for Ned to risk a trip to Starfall. Especially if he had a baby in tow. It seems a ridiculous unnecessary risk. There is only one reason in my mind, that Ned would travel to Starfall with a baby. And the only reason is that Ned is trying to return the baby to his mother.
×