A deep dive into the Purple Wedding (could Sansa have been the poisoner?)

[LongRider]

I like to call the hairnet "Checkov's hairnet" as it's available to Sansa and mayhaps she could use it later, dissolved in nice cup of Arbor Gold for Littefinger?  I doubt that Olenna knows where Sansa is.  Sure, she might have planned with LF, but I don't see LF giving away to Olenna his plans for Sansa, that would be too loose of an end. 

[Melifeather]

Yeah, I doubt very much that Olenna knew Littlefinger would help Sansa escape. Perhaps Lady Olenna‘s offer was a kindness since surely she realized Sansa was at great risk, but was also beneficial to the Tyrells? It also may be just words uttered without any true intentions. Many times people throw out invitations, because of etiquette with no expectations to actually follow through with it.

[Alma11]

On 2/7/2024 at 4:20 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Unbeknownst to Olenna, Petyr planned on using the Tyrion’s death as the distraction to get Sansa into his ship and to the Vale, conveniently now unmarried for his plans for her.  In other words, Petyr was planning on using Olenna to help poison Tyrion and then double crossing her.  

 

Your theory is plausible, in the end, whatever the truth, is a win-win (for Littlefinger at least). But how did Littlefinger know in real time that Joffrey was killed and not Tyrion? 

And why didn't Oleanna plan to take Sansa immediatly after the (supposed) death of Tyrion, like Littlefinger did? It was possible that Tywin, after the death of Tyrion, would've locked the girl somewhere either to investigate his son's death (if it was suspected to be murder), or to let her mourn her housband (as per tradition). In this case, Oleanna's plan would've been pointless.

Sorry for all this questions, I just want to clear all my doubts  

Edited February 8 by Alma11

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:22 AM, John Suburbs said:

I doubt it would be the next day. Sansa would be in mourning, so it would be very inappropriate to go visiting. Three months at minimum.

But on top of that, Tywin already knows the Olenna tried to bring Sansa to Highgarden, and why. So I would be very surprised if he didn't keep a close eye on her now that she's eligible again.

This is why I can only conclude that Olenna knew all about Sansa's escape. Yes, Petyr now has her, but better him than Tywin.

Yes, it’s possible that Olenna just told Sansa that she would bring her to Highgarden the next day just to add incentive for Sansa to go ahead with the poisoning.

But I have a feeling that Olenna was serious.  That she was going to take Sansa and leave for Highgarden immediately, and dare the Lannisters to try and stop her.  That’s one of the benefits of your House having what was probably the largest army in King’s Landing at the time.  

I don’t think that Olenna was planning on hanging around long enough, just in case some questions started to arise about Tyrion’s death.  And if Sansa was a knowing participant she surely wouldn’t want Sansa hanging around any longer than necessary.  Plus it just gives the Lannisters a chance to marry her to someone else.

I think the Lannisters knew that they couldn’t stop the Tyrells from taking Sansa which is why they hurried up and married her off to Tyrion.

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This is why I can only conclude that Olenna knew all about Sansa's escape. Yes, Petyr now has her, but better him than Tywin.

No not really.  The Tyrells are in league with the Lannisters even if it’s an uneasy alliance.  They have no such alliance with the Vale.  I think Sansa leaving with Petyr was a complete double cross by Petyr.  He was going to use the Tyrell’s desire for Sansa to formulate the plan to poison her husband, and then he was going to swoop in and grab Sansa for himself.

Edited February 8 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/7/2024 at 12:46 PM, Melifeather said:

But there was chaos and it created a domino effect that ended up with Cersei demoted and Kevan's death.

But this domino effect only started with Tywin’s death not Joffrey’s.  Joffrey as King and Cersei as regent with no Tywin would arguably be worse than Tommen as King with Cersei as regent.  Joffrey was just as unstable as Cersei if not more so and there would be little she could do to control him.  Tywin was the stabilizing element.

And Petyr had nothing to do with Tywin’s death.  So it wasn’t Joffrey’s death that contributed to the chaos.

And as an aside, the whole “chaos is a ladder” thing is a show justification.  It’s not a justification from the books.  Petyr is definitely always improving his position, and he certainly manipulates killings to his advantage, but there is no indication that he is just trying to create chaos.  

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/7/2024 at 3:37 PM, Melifeather said:

Two problems with this. The first I've already mentioned: Sansa doesn't recall any of this or rather her thoughts are one of shock and fear at discovering that a stone is missing. The second problem is locating the correct stone in a hairnet of several stones. You can google "mesh wire hairnet with stones" and many pictures will pop up to get an idea. The book describes the hairnet:

The first point you bring up, I’ll be addressing in my next (and last) part.  As for the second part, it’s a fair point, and I’ve never worn a hair net so I’m speaking out of school a bit.  But my guess is Sansa could tell which stone was removed based on the pressure of Olenna’s fingers.  And in the event she couldn’t, Olenna might have given her a reminder before she takes her leave of her:

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“Myself as well. Seventy-seven courses, I daresay. Don’t you find that a bit excessive, my lord? I shan’t eat more than three or four bites myself, but you and I are very little, aren’t we?” She patted Sansa’s hair again and said, “Well, off with you, child, and try to be merrier.”

She reminds Sansa about the food Tyrion’s going to eat and perhaps pats her right on the spot where she changed the stone for the poison, to give her a final reminder.

ETA: One additional possibility that I thought of is that the stone that was switched would be the one looses in the settings, so that could also be the giveaway.

Edited February 8 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

@Frey family reunion  How would Olenna or Sansa know which crystal in the hairnet was the strangler?  Assuming that there was only one and you can't tell the difference between the poison crystal and amethyst?

When Olenna removes one of the stones in the hair net, she replaces it with the poison.  So Olenna doesn’t have to choose a particular stone.

As for Sansa, like I stated above, perhaps Sansa can tell based on where Olenna concentrates her efforts, or perhaps the pat on the head was directed exactly to the location where the stone was replaced.

ETA:  It would also be the one “stone” that would be the loosest in it’s setting, which would also be the giveaway.

I suppose another possibility is that it was worked out ahead of time.  Perhaps one of the amethysts was removed prior to the wedding, and that’s the location that Olenna inserted the poison.

Edited February 8 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

If the hairnet strands are very thin the stones would be tiny. Tiny black or purple stones shouldn't cry out "poison!" IMO, lol. And Sansa has already established a precedent wearing hairnets at court since Joffrey gave her the moonstone hairnet back in Clash. That one too must have looked slightly purple, because she wore it with a purple gown. Perhaps the strangler hairnet was made to mimic the moonstone one so no one would think it was new?

It’s not the visual look of the Strangler crystals vs the amethyst that I have issue with.  It’s the idea that they would withstand any physical handling.  In other words, a salt crystal can look very much like a rock formation, but it can be fairly easily broken or crushed.  That’s why I found it interesting that Cressen touched his crystal lightly.  Perhaps he needed to to anvoid breaking it.   And Sansa isn’t the only one handling the hairnet, we have her maids handling it as well.  Also the sheer amount of the poison that a hairnet full of Stranglers makes me skeptical that all of the stones were actually poison.

It would be extremely rare and incredibly incriminating, a huge overkill for killing one person.  And I doubt that whoever could get their hands on so much poisons would be willing to poison one person and then lose the rest.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Alma11 said:

Your theory is plausible, in the end, whatever the truth, is a win-win (for Littlefinger at least). But how did Littlefinger know in real time that Joffrey was killed and not Tyrion? 

And why didn't Oleanna plan to take Sansa immediatly after the (supposed) death of Tyrion, like Littlefinger did? It was possible that Tywin, after the death of Tyrion, would've locked the girl somewhere either to investigate his son's death (if it was suspected to be murder), or to let her mourn her housband (as per tradition). In this case, Oleanna's plan would've been pointless.

Sorry for all this questions, I just want to clear all my doubts  

It was the bells, tolling.  They ring for the death of a King, not for the death of a dwarf.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose another possibility is that it was worked out ahead of time.  Perhaps one of the amethysts was removed prior to the wedding, and that’s the location that Olenna inserted the poison.

Oh, I should have been paying closer attention. 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, it’s possible that Olenna just told Sansa that she would bring her to Highgarden the next day just to add incentive for Sansa to go ahead with the poisoning.

But I have a feeling that Olenna was serious.  That she was going to take Sansa and leave for Highgarden immediately, and dare the Lannisters to try and stop her.  That’s one of the benefits of your House having what was probably the largest army in King’s Landing at the time.  

I don’t think that Olenna was planning on hanging around long enough, just in case some questions started to arise about Tyrion’s death.  And if Sansa was a knowing participant she surely wouldn’t want Sansa hanging around any longer than necessary.  Plus it just gives the Lannisters a chance to marry her to someone else.

I think the Lannisters knew that they couldn’t stop the Tyrells from taking Sansa which is why they hurried up and married her off to Tyrion.

 

No, she told Sansa that she would bring her to Highgarden because that's what she was going to do. Olenna was not part of the poisoning plot at this point, otherwise she never would have considered such a thing, nor would she be confused by the "disturbing tales" about Joffrey because the only man who told her he was anything but a mad tyrant has admitted that he lied.

And sorry, but with Tyrion suddenly dead, Sansa is not going anywhere. First, it would be highly improper for a woman in mourning go to visiting the day after her husband's death. Talk about drawing attention to her. And Tywin already knows about this plot to marry her to Willas, so in this case he is absolutely right to refuse her leave.

And remember, the initial plot to ask for this leave was when Sansa was still unmarried, so Tyrion's death would have absolutely nothing to do with her. By the wedding, however, she was his wife and the Willas plot was already blown, so the circumstances are completely different now.

And sorry, but if you agree that Tyrion was the target and the poison was in the pie, then your theory about the hairnet becomes even more awkward. Why bother with any of this if Lady O can just give Sansa the poison? How could they expect a timid little mouse like Sansa to do it when the time came? And since Lady O was standing right behind Tyrion just before the pie was wheeled in, and this is right where the servant would be holding the plate with the slice on it, why does Lady O need anyone else to do it?

 

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No not really.  The Tyrells are in league with the Lannisters even if it’s an uneasy alliance.  They have no such alliance with the Vale.  I think Sansa leaving with Petyr was a complete double cross by Petyr.  He was going to use the Tyrell’s desire for Sansa to formulate the plan to poison her husband, and then he was going to swoop in and grab Sansa for himself.

The Tyrells are only aligned with the Lannisters as a temporary convenience. Their aim is to put Margaery's son on the Iron Throne. Once that is done, the alliance, and Joffrey, are expendable. The real geopolitical issue that Olenna is trying to undo is Tywin's emerging empire. Check the history books: for hundreds of centuries, Highgarden was the dominant house on the continent, both militarily and economically. And unlike the other kingdoms, the Reach has no mountains, deserts, choke points or other natural barriers to invasion. just league upon league of open farmland. Their only means of defending themselves is their huge army -- twice, even three times, the size of any other house.

In the past 15 years or so, however, Tywin has gained control of the Iron Throne, the crownlands, the stormlands, the riverlands and now the north. That gives him the ability to raise an army that can neutralize the Reach's one and only means of defense. With Tyrion dead, he loses the north. But if he still has Sansa, he can just marry her off to another Lannister and the problem remains.

If she is with Petyr, however, there is a chance that someday he will become a rival to Highgarden's power, but that is a problem for another day, and another lord or lady.

[the trees have eyes]

Can we let him finish first?  I'm enjoying the read 

[Melifeather]

@Frey family reunion will you address "when" Sansa got the idea to use the hairnet on Tyrion? All she knew prior to the wedding feast was that Ser Dontos was bringing her a magic hairnet that would take her home. You have to remember that Ser Dontos is the only person she talked to beforehand and didn't know he was connected to Littlefinger at all. I think you've got a logistical problem with this theory. She also could not have known Olenna would come to her and adjust the hairnet or that her actions meant anything at all. Yes, she thinks Lady Olenna is being friendly to her, but it's another thing all together to assert that Sansa knows that Olenna knows that the hairnet has poisonous gems on it. This would take prior planning and a conversation - even if it's only a highly suggestive conversation. 

[the trees have eyes]

19 hours ago, Melifeather said:

@Frey family reunion will you address "when" Sansa got the idea to use the hairnet on Tyrion? All she knew prior to the wedding feast was that Ser Dontos was bringing her a magic hairnet that would take her home.

There's a hint though:

A Clash of Kings - Sansa VIII

It was a hair net of fine-spun silver, the strands so thin and delicate the net seemed to weigh no more than a breath of air when Sansa took it in her fingers. Small gems were set wherever two strands crossed, so dark they drank the moonlight. "What stones are these?"

"Black amethysts from Asshai. The rarest kind, a deep true purple by daylight."

"It's very lovely," Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

"Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It's magic, you see. It's justice you hold. It's vengeance for your father." Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. "It's home."

 

Home = Escape.  But justice and, in particular, vengeance suggests more than escape.  Plus we have to wonder how Sansa imagines a hairnet will help her get any of home, justice or vengeance.  The OP has a view of Sansa as unreliable narrator and repressing memories / thoughts(?) to share in Part 4.

[Melifeather]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:35 AM, the trees have eyes said:

There's a hint though:

A Clash of Kings - Sansa VIII

It was a hair net of fine-spun silver, the strands so thin and delicate the net seemed to weigh no more than a breath of air when Sansa took it in her fingers. Small gems were set wherever two strands crossed, so dark they drank the moonlight. "What stones are these?"

"Black amethysts from Asshai. The rarest kind, a deep true purple by daylight."

"It's very lovely," Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

"Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It's magic, you see. It's justice you hold. It's vengeance for your father." Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. "It's home."

 

Home = Escape.  But justice and, in particular, vengeance suggests more than escape.  Plus we have to wonder how Sansa imagines a hairnet will help her get any of home, justice or vengeance.  The OP has a view of Sansa as unreliable narrator and repressing memories / thoughts(?) to share in Part 4.

What kind of hint are you understanding here? Dontos said the hairnet represented justice and vengeance for her father. Joffrey beheaded her father not Tyrion. If you were Sansa and you understood that you had the power to take the life of Joffrey, who tortured you and beheaded your father, or Tyrion simply because he's ugly and you were forced to marry him? I can't believe anyone would seriously consider Tyrion over Joffrey! 

What do you think Sansa understood when Ser Dontos told her the hairnet represented "home"? Where did she think Dontos was taking her when she slipped away from the wedding feast? Doesn't it make sense that she assumed he would help her get home to Winterfell?

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A Clash of Kings - Sansa II

Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home.

The words were the same on the hundredth reading as they'd been on the first, when Sansa had discovered the folded sheet of parchment beneath her pillow. She did not know how it had gotten there or who had sent it. The note was unsigned, unsealed, and the hand unfamiliar. She crushed the parchment to her chest and whispered the words to herself. "Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home," she breathed, ever so faintly.

 

 

Sansa repeats the note as if a mantra, "come to the godswood if you want to go home". At that time she believed Arya was safe back at Winterfell, dancing and sewing, and playing with Bran and Rickon.

 

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A Clash of Kings - Sansa II

She unlaced her gown and crawled into her bed, but she did not sleep. Was he still there? she wondered. How long will he wait? It was so cruel, to send her a note and tell her nothing. The thoughts went round and round in her head.

If only she had someone to tell her what to do. She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. Sansa was allowed to go riding too, but only in the bailey, and it got boring going round in a circle all day.

 

I think it's quite clear that Sansa wished to go home to Winterfell and that King Joffrey had the power to keep her in Kings Landing. In Storm she tells Ser Dontos that he needn't help her escape any longer, because she's going to marry Willas Tyrell. Sansa was willing to accept a marriage to Willas rather than go home to Winterfell, because he offered her a life miles away from JOFFREY!

Dontos tells her to beware of the Tyrells as they only want power over Winterfell through her. Dontos informs Littlefinger of the Tyrell plot and Littlefinger makes sure Tywin hears of it and that is when the plan to marry her to Tyrion is formed. 

Even after Sansa is married to Tyrion, Joffrey tells her that she will be his mistress:

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa III

... And then the dance brought her face-to-face with Joffrey.

Sansa stiffened as his hand touched hers, but the king tightened his grip and drew her closer. "You shouldn't look so sad. My uncle is an ugly little thing, butyou'll still have me."

"You're to marry Margaery!"

"A king can have other women. Whores. My father did. One of the Aegons did too. The third one, or the fourth. He had lots of whores and lots of bastards." As they whirled to the music, Joff gave her a moist kiss. "My uncle will bring you to my bed whenever I command it."

Sansa shook her head. "He won't."

"He will, or I'll have his head. That King Aegon, he had any woman he wanted, whether they were married or no."

 

Until that moment, Sansa believed Tyrion would protect her from Joffrey. She was already married to Tyrion at that point, but this dance with Joffrey shook her. Now she understood that being married to Tyrion kept her too close to Joffrey. Sansa was terrified of Joffrey. She wasn't afraid of Tyrion. Killing Tyrion would end her marriage, but it wouldn't keep her safe from Joffrey.

 

Edited February 11 by Melifeather

[Melifeather]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:32 AM, John Suburbs said:

And sorry, but with Tyrion suddenly dead, Sansa is not going anywhere. First, it would be highly improper for a woman in mourning go to visiting the day after her husband's death. Talk about drawing attention to her. And Tywin already knows about this plot to marry her to Willas, so in this case he is absolutely right to refuse her leave.

This. Exactly this. With Tyrion dead Sansa is not going anywhere. Period. She'd still be a useful commodity to hold onto until another advantageous match was brokered. And Sansa would still have to put up with Joffrey's tortures.

[Melifeather]

On 2/9/2024 at 11:33 AM, the trees have eyes said:

Can we let him finish first?  I'm enjoying the read 

This is what this forum is for...to present a theory and see if it can hold up to scrutiny. An OP's biggest hope is that their theory generates allot of discussion as this one has. My congratulations to @Frey family reunion for his success! We're not trying to tear FFR down, but to engage in a fruitful debate which hopefully leads to additional insight and understanding.

[Hippocras]

As fun as I find speculation, I always have one big question for any proposal, and that is why do you want the less straightforward version to be true?

I have absolutely no doubt that Littlefinger wants Tyrion disposed of and has been trying for the whole series. But he thought that framing Tyrion for regicide would do the trick. He did not think he needed to murder Tyrion directly because he had manipulated events in such a way that he knew Tyrion would take the fall (confound it, he escaped!)

It is getting JOFFREY murdered and out of the way that takes more planning, schemes, poison. Getting access to Tyrion to poison him would not have required a wedding. So there is no question at all that Joffrey was the target, and the intent was that Tyrion take the blame.

So what are we trying to achieve really with this theory? Is it just about proving Sansa is a player? Because I am patient. I do not need her to be a player YET to see she has potential to be one, and I don't think that murder is the only way to become a player.

[the trees have eyes]

22 hours ago, Melifeather said:

What kind of hint are you understanding here? Dontos said the hairnet represented justice and vengeance for her father. Joffrey beheaded her father not Tyrion. If you were Sansa and you understood that you had the power to take the life of Joffrey, who tortured you and beheaded your father, or Tyrion simply because he's ugly and you were forced to marry him? I can't believe anyone would seriously consider Tyrion over Joffrey! 

What do you think Sansa understood when Ser Dontos told her the hairnet represented "home"? Where did she think Dontos was taking her when she slipped away from the wedding feast? Doesn't it make sense that she assumed he would help her get home to Winterfell?

 

Sansa repeats the note as if a mantra, "come to the godswood if you want to go home". At that time she believed Arya was safe back at Winterfell, dancing and sewing, and playing with Bran and Rickon.

 

I think it's quite clear that Sansa wished to go home to Winterfell and that King Joffrey had the power to keep her in Kings Landing. In Storm she tells Ser Dontos that he needn't help her escape any longer, because she's going to marry Willas Tyrell. Sansa was willing to accept a marriage to Willas rather than go home to Winterfell, because he offered her a life miles away from JOFFREY!

Dontos tells her to beware of the Tyrells as they only want power over Winterfell through her. Dontos informs Littlefinger of the Tyrell plot and Littlefinger makes sure Tywin hears of it and that is when the plan to marry her to Tyrion is formed. 

Even after Sansa is married to Tyrion, Joffrey tells her that she will be his mistress:

Until that moment, Sansa believed Tyrion would protect her from Joffrey. She was already married to Tyrion at that point, but this dance with Joffrey shook her. Now she understood that being married to Tyrion kept her too close to Joffrey. Sansa was terrified of Joffrey. She wasn't afraid of Tyrion. Killing Tyrion would end her marriage, but it wouldn't keep her safe from Joffrey.

 

It's not my theory   You are making a lot of assumptions and asking a lot of questions.  As before I suggest you wait for the OP to finish rather than asking him (or me) a lot of questions he may intend to address.

All I was addressing was the idea that the hairnet symbolised nothing but home to Sansa.  It's not my intention to do anything with that point as it's not my thread.  I suppose I couldn't contain my enthusiasm to comment either.

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

This is what this forum is for...to present a theory and see if it can hold up to scrutiny. An OP's biggest hope is that their theory generates allot of discussion as this one has. My congratulations to @Frey family reunion for his success! We're not trying to tear FFR down, but to engage in a fruitful debate which hopefully leads to additional insight and understanding.

Of course it is.  But the theory is one argument broken into four posts due to length and every post gives the OP a distraction to field before he has finished presenting the theory (still unfinished).  It might have been better to post it in one go and then let the discussion flow but I was hoping we could contain our enthusiasm to discuss it until we had read and digested all of it.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's not my theory   You are making a lot of assumptions and asking a lot of questions. 

Posting an alternative theory that hinges upon Sansa suppressing her memories is a big hurdle to get over and very difficult to be convincing. It leaves allot of unanswered questions. 

7 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Of course it is.  But the theory is one argument broken into four posts due to length and every post gives the OP a distraction to field before he has finished presenting the theory (still unfinished).  It might have been better to post it in one go and then let the discussion flow but I was hoping we could contain our enthusiasm to discuss it until we had read and digested all of it.

That may be your idea on how this all works, but it's not mine. If you aren't ready to have your essay critiqued then it's not ready to publish. If you post segments then you should expect comments.