Hippocras

I was following an idea about Aelyx Targaryen, and it brought me to Dorne, which brought be to the name Morgan. I will spare you the details of that unformed chain of thought. But... Morgan Martell is the "original" Morgan. He was the Andal founder of House Martell, long before Nymeria arrived. During this period all of Westeros remained under the control of a great many squabbling Kingdoms, each with their own alliances that did not conform to the borders that later defined the Stormlands and Dorne. Early alliances between House Martell and Andal Houses outside of Dorne are likely, including but not limited to Houses Wylde and Hightower - IMO first via House Yronwood. Morgan Hightower was a commander of the Warrior's Sons during the Faith Militant Uprisings and the younger brother of Maegor's wife Ceryse. He has no known connection to Dorne except for proximity, which from time to time may have resulted in alliances between Hightowers and Martells or other Dornish Houses (ie. Yronwood) even before Dornish integration, as a way to secure naval trade routes. Morgan Wylde was the father of Coryanne Wylde and lord of the Rain House early in Jaehaerys I's reign. Both his name and his daughter's seem connected to Dorne, since Coryanne is likely a modified version of Chroyane, a destroyed city on the Rhoyne. This chain might hint at the drivers of Obara's grudge against Oldtown and her desire to destroy it. It might also connect to the logic of which families support Aegon and which prefer Daenerys.

I don't fully discount it, but also on the forums discussing secret identities and swaps feels a bit like throwing gasoline on a fire. It can be a good way to boost the numbers of posts, but the arguments can never be resolved and no conclusions drawn. Either you are for the swap or not.

Some thoughts on Balerion: I think he represents the line that left Valyria. He was one of 5 dragons then (who we can suspect were ridden by Aenar, a sister-wife, another sibling, Daenys, and Gaemon). Balerion was IMO probably either Aenar's or Gaemon's. Balerion was later ridden by Aegon I, then Maegor. My guess is he was also ridden by Maegon before Aegon, with Maegon's only child, a girl, being Valaena Velaryon and her brother Daemon's Targaryen mother (ie. grandmother of the conquerors). Princess Aerea claimed Balerion in 54 AC but could not control him (she was the only known female rider so....because of gender? or lineage?). Did he take her to Valyria because he sensed the Targaryens were losing their roots, much like Drogon taking Dany to the Dothraki sea? Jaehaerys's heir Aemon died in 92 AC. Prince Viserys, whose father became heir upon Aemon's death, claimed Balerion in 93 AC (a bond based in Viserys's love of Old Valyrian history?) . Then Balerion died in 94 AC. This timing is interesting to me.

Does anyone have any old links for threads discussing the symbolism of dragons, the meaning of who rode which ones etc.? If not, would love to hear people's ideas because I am sure that, just as with the direwolves, the choices GRRM makes related to dragons have a high degree of symbolism.

No. That weird shape Caraxes has is very recognizable, even it the shadows make it hard to see his colour. I have to say, this trailer is super exciting. Gets the heart racing and definitely ramps up the tension.

This show slipped out of the global top 10 this week as everyone seems to be doing a re-watch of Bridgerton seasons 1 and 2, each in the top 10 separately. It is still in the top 10 in 6 or 7 countries. It probably is not too far down the list globally they just don't show past 10. All it would take IMO is an announcement that there will be a second season for some more people to give it a try. And on that front: When I looked specifically for info on this show using the search tool on the Netflix top 10 page, it came up labeled "3 Body Problem Season 1". As far as I know it is a very new thing that they specifically call it season 1. This might be the first hint of a renewal decision.

Dance was split into 2 books but there was only 1 prologue. This would be the same if split IMO.

Again, your logic on this is backwards. The daughters we do not know of yet are the ones GRRM has not developed precise lineages for. That is all. Because it is work that is not yet necessary for him to tell his story, so he leaves seeds, not full details. Purity has nothing at all to do with it. The clue that these external marriages existed lies in the fact that their descendants married back into the Targaryen and Velaryon families over time, not the other way around, because these families were constantly reaffirming the strengrh of their bloodlines with cousin marriages of whatever degree. EDIT: Just to add - interpreting it your way just makes no sense at all, linguistically. The Targaryens could not have cared less about the purity/impurity of anyone else's bloodlines but their own. The implication of what you saying is that they considered their own blood to be some kind of contamination.

Exactly. Which is why I resist the idea that the prologue is about the BwB. As I said above, the BwB action is main book action (involving Riverrun and the Freys, not Jeyne), told from these two points of view. The prologue is something else. Either Nymeria's pack attacks, or Forley Prester's party makes it safely to the Westerlands and the prologue happens there. White Wood - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) My post on the previous page:

@Protagoras @Castellan don't get me wrong: I agree the BwB are planning something. But I lean towards them attacking the Freys, with Brienne and/or Jamie as our POV. Probably both. The BwB are VERY focused on the Freys and there are not many of those with Prester's column. So I think they will infiltrate Riverrun and sabotage from within there. The extra Lannister soldiers sent with Prester serve to weaken Riverrun's defenses, and the various siege forces from Brackens, Vances etc. are all going home, so are not sticking around to help Freys. This is why the bit about Genna matters. As for Brynden, I think there is good reason we first met him in the Vale. His future is there. He spent more than a decade there and has many many friends. A tourney has been called, and since a large number of Riverlands families have kin in the Vale, Brynden will disguise himself as a hedge knight or knight in service and accompany one of these large groups headed to the Vale. He may die there, or he may win a position as a winged knight defending his nephew, which puts him in place to advise and help Sansa free herself from LF's clutches.

The prologue will involve Jeyne, yes. But we have no confirmation of the BwB, and I personally doubt their involvement because they have 2 regular POV characters with them at this point (Jamie and Brienne). The whole point of the prologues and epilogues usually is to give us a window on people and places we would not otherwise see. This is why I lean towards Nymeria's pack, not the BwB if the prologue is about an attack on Prester and his companions. Even if Arya can give us a bit of a window on Nymeria, it is distorted and ambiguous, much like Mel's visions, and not direct.

This is funny considering how many people on these forums think I am OVERDOING my many exhaustive investigations of lineage. Believe me, I have looked VERY carefully. And looking very carefully makes it clear that: 1. Both the Targaryen and Velaryon early family trees are very much incomplete. The Targ tree in particular is not a tree at all, but simply a line of succession. For 100 years, noone is mentioned at all who did not directly rule Dragonstone (with their sister/brother-spouse) with the sole exception of Daenys's second (known) daughter. And the only reason SHE is in the tree, is because her descendant put forward a claim at the Great Council of 101. Without that we would not even know she ever existed. We even have proof people are missing, because there is no indication at all of Valaena Velaryon's mother, who we know was a Targaryen. In short, it is very safe to say there are several descendants of Aenar or his siblings (who came with him to Dragonstone before the Doom) who are not yet included in the early tree, and these descendants were the basis for a network of marriage alliances that extended quite far by the time of the conquest. 2. Yes, at a certain point, the number of families of origin for the wives of Targaryens expanded considerably. But believing these wives were not of Targaryen descent is frankly naive. Quite aside from the unnamed descendants of Aenar already covered by the first point, we also know of at LEAST 8 children of Baela and Rhaena Targaryen (and probably at least 3 more), as well as sisters of Aegon V who are known to have had children, etc. etc. So don't be blinded by patrilineal names. The wives of Targaryen kings and princes were of Targaryen descent themselves. And just because Aegon V was against SIBLING marriage, does not at ALL mean that he was against COUSIN marriage which was common throughout Westeros. 3. Even IF there were not a trace of Targaryen blood in these later brides (which is not true, but for argument's sake), as you yourself pointed out, there were no more dragons by then. So it would hardly disprove that the whole point of bloodline purity was to maintain their own dragon bond.

The prologue will include Jeyne Westerling, Robb's widow. This is confirmed by GRRM, and stated several times above on this thread and others. I don't see how it would be possible to include Jeyne in Oldtown. The Oldtown attack might not happen: This apparent threat to Oldtown might be a diversion to dispense with the Redwyne fleet and Tyrell armies so that Euron can move towards KL unimpeded. But if he does attack Oldtown itself then there are other POVs who can describe the attack Remember, Sam is in place there now, and Damphair is still alive. These two can provide a lens on either side of the conflict. Starfall, where Areo Hotah was last headed with Obara is not very far away and would be preoccupied by the assault, and there are always Bran and Mel to fill in a few details with visions if needed. In other words, the Oldtown attack, if it happens, is the material of several main book chapters and is not likely to be a prologue.

The article did not have much to do with arranged marriages? The history that is relevant there is the tradition in much of Europe for the first daughter to be named for the maternal grandmother, second daughter for the paternal grandmother. Even if this pattern was not actually this uniform the fact remains that the maternal grandmother was part of it.

On the real world history of the practice, particularly when it comes to women, and also perhaps on why there is this perplexing resistance to the idea on these forums. https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/04/why-baby-names-arent-usually-mother-names/629693/