A deep dive into the Purple Wedding (could Sansa have been the poisoner?)

[the trees have eyes]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

Posting an alternative theory that hinges upon Sansa suppressing her memories is a big hurdle to get over and very difficult to be convincing. It leaves allot of unanswered questions. 

That may be your idea on how this all works, but it's not mine. If you aren't ready to have your essay critiqued then it's not ready to publish. If you post segments then you should expect comments. 

Sansa suppressing her memories is the subject of the promised part 4.  That's all I'm trying to get across.  But as we're close to arguing over nothing I'll leave off.

[Sandy Clegg]

Pretty Sure @Frey family reunion won't be too bothered by all the comments - he's been here awhile and has seen much worse I'm sure  

Interested to see how this develops, and liking the multi-stage essay format as it has provoked discussion. 

Sansa's 'unreliable narrator'-ness is something we should definitely probe more on this forum.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

As fun as I find speculation, I always have one big question for any proposal, and that is why do you want the less straightforward version to be true?

I have absolutely no doubt that Littlefinger wants Tyrion disposed of and has been trying for the whole series. But he thought that framing Tyrion for regicide would do the trick. He did not think he needed to murder Tyrion directly because he had manipulated events in such a way that he knew Tyrion would take the fall (confound it, he escaped!)

It is getting JOFFREY murdered and out of the way that takes more planning, schemes, poison. Getting access to Tyrion to poison him would not have required a wedding. So there is no question at all that Joffrey was the target, and the intent was that Tyrion take the blame.

So what are we trying to achieve really with this theory? Is it just about proving Sansa is a player? Because I am patient. I do not need her to be a player YET to see she has potential to be one, and I don't think that murder is the only way to become a player.

Petyr could not possibly have predicted all the entire sequence of events that led to Joffrey's death and Tyrion being frames. This would mean that just by staging the dwarf joust, he knows with absolute certainty that:

 - Tyrion and Joffrey will get into it. Not a bad assumption, if Tyrion is still in the room, and conscious.

 - That Joffrey will bring the chalice into it. A little shakier here. Yes, it's one of Joffrey's new toys, but he has a shiny new sword as well, and Tyrion did pull a knife on him at his own wedding . . .

 - That Joffrey would make Tyrion his cup-bearer, giving Tyrion a reason to even touch the chalice, let alone fill it

 -- That Joffrey would place the chalice in the exact spot at the exact time for it to be poisoned, somehow, with not even Sansa seeing despite it being directly in front of her.

So sorry, what you have here is not the straightforward version, but the utterly impossible version told by Littlefinger, aka, the biggest liar in the book, to Sansa, aka, the most gullible person in the book, to cover up the fact that his whole plan went tits up when Joffrey at the poisoned pie that was meant for Tyrion. That one event could not have been predicted, and it was all that was needed to scotch the actual plan, whereas the regicide/framing theory requires an entire sequence of unpredictable events in order to work.

[Hippocras]

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Petyr could not possibly have predicted all the entire sequence of events that led to Joffrey's death and Tyrion being frames. This would mean that just by staging the dwarf joust, he knows with absolute certainty that:

 - Tyrion and Joffrey will get into it. Not a bad assumption, if Tyrion is still in the room, and conscious.

 - That Joffrey will bring the chalice into it. A little shakier here. Yes, it's one of Joffrey's new toys, but he has a shiny new sword as well, and Tyrion did pull a knife on him at his own wedding . . .

 - That Joffrey would make Tyrion his cup-bearer, giving Tyrion a reason to even touch the chalice, let alone fill it

 -- That Joffrey would place the chalice in the exact spot at the exact time for it to be poisoned, somehow, with not even Sansa seeing despite it being directly in front of her.

So sorry, what you have here is not the straightforward version, but the utterly impossible version told by Littlefinger, aka, the biggest liar in the book, to Sansa, aka, the most gullible person in the book, to cover up the fact that his whole plan went tits up when Joffrey at the poisoned pie that was meant for Tyrion. That one event could not have been predicted, and it was all that was needed to scotch the actual plan, whereas the regicide/framing theory requires an entire sequence of unpredictable events in order to work.

You overlook that the setup did not entirely depend on corcumstances. Witnesses were lined up and ready to accuse Tyrion, and even if he had drunk himself unconscious they would have adapted their stories to fit the moment. The joust was designed to humiliate him and make him publicly angry, and baiting Joffrey to pile on is no hard thing; he loved mocking and humiliating his uncle. So in front of hundreds of witnesses Tyrion's face looked murderous and his rage was focused on Joffrey.

That is really all that was necessary to make the lies of the planted witnesses feel truthful, no matter what circumstances those witnesses needed to adapt the specifics to.

Edited February 13 by Hippocras

[Frey family reunion]

I’ll try to respond to some of your posts in a bit, but first I wanted to put out the fourth and hopefully last part of the theory. 

IV.  The Aftermath.

My suspicion is that GRRM likes to explore the idea of an unreliable POV narrator a bit with Sansa.  Most here know about her false memory of the kiss she received from Sandor Clegane.  But I think there may be a bit more than that.

One of my favorite pet theories has to do with the fact George’s eye color “mistakes” often happen in Sansa’s POVs.  Two that spring to mind are Renly’s green eyes as opposed to blue for Renly, and Loras’ golden eyes as opposed to brown.  Interestingly enough, those might not be mistakes on the part of the author.  He may intentionally be playing with the idea of Sansa’s point of view early in her experience in King’s Landing:

Quote

Sansa rode to the Hand’s tourney with Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, in a litter with curtains of yellow silk so fine she could see right through them. They turned the whole world gold.

So if you’re looking at blue eyes through a gold or yellow lens, they turn green, and if you look at brown eyes through the same lens they turn golden.  

If George did this on purpose, then that’s a neat trick.

It’s also at least hinted that Ned may have repressed part of his memory of Lyanna’s death bed, a memory that creeps up on certain occasions.  If so, then it wouldn’t surprise me if Ned’s daughter might also repress a traumatic event herself.

So let’s go to the aftermath of the Purple Wedding.  And 

Quote

Far across the city, a bell began to toll.
            Sansa felt as though she were in a dream. “Joffrey is dead,” she told the trees, to see if that would wake her.
            He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing.

So it’s fairly important to note when Sansa fled.  Joffrey was still choking and Cersei had not yet accused Tyrion of having poisoned him.  In fact at the time Sansa fled no one had accused anyone of a poisoning.  

Which makes sense because that’s the whole purpose of the Strangler, to make it look like the victim had choked on a morsel of food.  So presumably, Sansa if she had been completely ignorant of the significance of her hair net, should have no reason to believe that Joffrey was poisoned or that anyone had murdered him.  She should have thought that he just choked on the pie he was wolfing down.

In addition, it is interesting that though Sansa talks about fleeing because of the awful sight of Joffrey choking to death, she is also following the game plan, for the evening.  To flee while everyone is distracted.  And she flees towards the hollowed tree where she had hidden her dark cloak.

But here is the moment where I think Sansa repressed her part in Joffrey’s death:

Quote

Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. “You have a good heart, my lady,” she said to Sansa. “Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf.”
            A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down.

So why would someone telling her that she had a good heart have prompted hysterical laughter?  What has Sansa done recently other than being the victim of the Lannisters, that would have made her laugh hysterically to the notion that she has a good heart?

Is it possible that this prompted the response from Sansa because she knows what she just did.  That she either tried to poison Tyrion to end her unwanted marriage or she successfully poisoned Joffrey?

And when she swallows her laughter, she represses this memory, into her subconscious.  Normally, when we swallow something it goes into our stomach.  So when her tummy flutters, is that her subconscious threatening to bubble up?

Quote

“Littlefinger smiled. “Widowhood will become you, Sansa.”
            The thought made her tummy flutter. She might never need to share a bed with Tyrion again. That was what she’d wanted … wasn’t it?”

If she represses what she did, is the thought of Tyrion dying and thus freeing her, causing her tummy to flutter a sign that this is what she had intentionally intended?  To poison Tyrion?  But she’s buried the thought deep  in her subconscious.

So now, as she hurriedly tries to escape King’s Landing, if she’s ignorant of the poison in her hairnet and what surely caused Joffrey to be killed, why does her eyes go to the empty socket in her hairnet?

Quote

When she pulled it free, her long auburn hair cascaded down her back and across her shoulders. The web of spun silver hung from her fingers, the fine metal glimmering softly, the stones black in the moonlight. Black amethysts from Asshai. One of them was missing. Sansa lifted the net for a closer look. There was a dark smudge in the silver socket where the stone had fallen out.
            A sudden terror filled her. Her heart hammered against her ribs, and for an instant she held her breath. Why am I so scared, it’s only an amethyst, a black amethyst from Asshai, no more than that. It must have been loose in the setting, that’s all. It was loose and it fell out, and now it’s lying somewhere in the throne room, or in the yard, unless …

Even if her conscious mind had repressed what she did, her subconscious knows, and it directs her attention to the hair net.  And her subconscious starts desperately looking for someone to blame.  And it lands on Dontos:

Quote

“Sansa pulled away from his touch. “You said I must wear the hair net. The silver net with … what sort of stones are those?”
            “Amethysts. Black amethysts from Asshai, my lady.”
            “They’re no amethysts. Are they? Are they? You lied.”
            “Black amethysts,” he swore. “There was magic in them.”
            “There was murder in them!”
            “Softly, my lady, softly. No murder. He choked on his pigeon pie.” Dontos chortled. “Oh, tasty tasty pie. Silver and stones, that’s all it was, silver and stone and magic.”
            The bells were tolling, and the wind was making a noise like he had made as he tried to suck a breath of air. “You poisoned him. You did. You took a stone from my hair …”
            “Hush, you’ll be the death of us. I did nothing.”

It’s quite the intuitive leap for Sansa to jump to Joffrey choking on a pie, to her the stones in her hair net being poison which was used on Joffrey.  Unless of course it’s really not an intuitive leap.  Deep down, buried in her subconscious she knows the truth, and it’s buried deep down in her tummy.

 

Edited February 12 by Frey family reunion

[Sandy Clegg]

FYI, GRRM has this to say on eye colour, and unreliable narrators.

“I do use the device of unreliable narrator, especially when dealing with memory. I present these scenes, sometimes from multiple  different viewpoints. And these versions don’t quite ‘jive’ and so … then you have to figure out what really happened.

The only problem with that is I, not being perfect, do make real mistakes.I would prefer not to make real mistakes, but my readers are very good. They point them out. I’m terrible with eye colours, some characters eye colours change.

And when you make mistakes like that, then … when you come across the unreliable narrator, the reader thinks “Oh he fucked up again”, but actually I didn’t fuck up. Some of those are quite deliberate, so I wish I could eliminate the real mistakes … so that the fake mistakes could be seen for what they are, which is a sign of my literary genius.

-  From a 2014 Edinburgh Interview

https://www.edbookfest.co.uk/media-gallery/item/george-rr-martin-2014-event

This is not to say that he hasn't played around with perceptions of eye colour, but rather that instances when he does so deliberately may be hard to distinguish from the slip-ups. Indeed, the fact that he mentions 'eye colours' in the same breath as 'unreliable narrators' may imply that GRRM, in some way, associates the two ideas. So I wouldn't read this as either supporting or refuting @Frey family reunion's theory, but it does underline the fact that GRRM takes great pains with these things and there may very well be a number of devils amid the details.

[Melifeather]

Repressed memory occurs when trauma is too severe to be kept in conscious memory, and is removed by repression or dissociation or both. At some later time it may be recalled, often under innocuous circumstances, and reappears in conscious memory.

Which is more traumatic? Removing a stone and dropping it into food or drink, or watching your victim die?

Sansa remembers Joffrey choking, but she doesn’t recall delivering the poison?

You imply her hysterical laughter at being told she has a good heart is indicative of mental instability. Isn’t it more possible that her response was due to guilt and anguish at how she dismissed her father’s concerns about Joffrey and her refusal to follow his directive to leave Kings Landing? And how she took Joffrey‘s side over her own sister when asked about the sword fight?

[Sandy Clegg]

6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Repressed memory occurs when trauma is too severe to be kept in conscious memory, and is removed by repression or dissociation or both. At some later time it may be recalled, often under innocuous circumstances, and reappears in conscious memory.

Are we in danger of ignoring the fantasy element here? Sansa famously is one of the only Stark children POVs not to exhibit warging/skinchanging powers. Possibly her direwolf being killed (before any latent powers of Sansa could manifest) was a factor, we don't know. But as she is a Stark kid, it has to be on the table for discussion. There may be a lot more going on in her mental state than our 'real-world' understanding of psychology can bear out. Perhaps her lack of direwolf has caused any mental abilities she possesses to rebound internally? She may actually not be in full control of all her actions, or memories, in some way.

Edited February 13 by Sandy Clegg

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Are we in danger of ignoring the fantasy element here? Sansa famously is one of the only Stark children POVs not to exhibit warging/skinchanging powers. Possibly her direwolf being killed (before any latent powers of Sansa could manifest) was a factor, we don't know. But as she is a Stark kid, it has to be on the table for discussion. There may be a lot more going on in her mental state than our 'real-world' understanding of psychology can bear out. Perhaps her lack of direwolf has caused any mental abilities she possesses to rebound internally? She may actually not be in full control of all her actions, or memories, in some way.

What places a book into the fantasy genre are the supernatural and magical elements. If we entertain the idea that she forgot that she did the poisoning I would expect that someone would have cast a spell on Sansa, or that the gems themselves had magical properties that affected the wearer. Dontos told her the hairnet was magical, but we know the stones were Strangler crystals that maesters that wear the chain of alchemy can create as well as alchemists from Lys and Faceless Men. Frey Family Reunion did not suggest a magical reason for Sansa's memory loss. He suggested repressed memories which is a psychological diagnosis.

As for Sansa's warging abilities...I believe they are still there. She lost Lady, yes, but I believe she could develop another close bond with a different animal, and the Alayne chapters hint that one is developing with the household dog.

Edited February 13 by Melifeather

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Which is more traumatic? Removing a stone and dropping it into food or drink, or watching your victim die?

Sansa remembers Joffrey choking, but she doesn’t recall delivering the poison?

You imply her hysterical laughter at being told she has a good heart is indicative of mental instability. Isn’t it more possible that her response was due to guilt and anguish at how she dismissed her father’s concerns about Joffrey and her refusal to follow his directive to leave Kings Landing? And how she took Joffrey‘s side over her own sister when asked about the sword fight?

Sansa’s trauma is that she murdered someone.  That’s something that she can’t cope with.  That’s the memory that she is swallowing, i.e. repressing.  Girls with good hearts don’t murder.

And yes, the hysterical part of the laughter implies a mental instability.   She was starting to crack up.  

And while it’s possible that she has guilt over Arya and her father, those are emotions she’s had a long time to deal with.  I don’t know if that would cause the sudden onset of hysterical laughing, especially after all the time she spent being punished for her decisions.

 But if she had just tried to kill Tyrion or successfully killed Joffrey, this was something new that she hadn’t had time to process.  Hence her subconscious quickly repressing what she did to maintain her sanity.

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:32 AM, John Suburbs said:

No, she told Sansa that she would bring her to Highgarden because that's what she was going to do. Olenna was not part of the poisoning plot at this point, otherwise she never would have considered such a thing, nor would she be confused by the "disturbing tales" about Joffrey because the only man who told her he was anything but a mad tyrant has admitted that he lied.

And sorry, but with Tyrion suddenly dead, Sansa is not going anywhere. First, it would be highly improper for a woman in mourning go to visiting the day after her husband's death. Talk about drawing attention to her. And Tywin already knows about this plot to marry her to Willas, so in this case he is absolutely right to refuse her leave.

And remember, the initial plot to ask for this leave was when Sansa was still unmarried, so Tyrion's death would have absolutely nothing to do with her. By the wedding, however, she was his wife and the Willas plot was already blown, so the circumstances are completely different now.

And sorry, but if you agree that Tyrion was the target and the poison was in the pie, then your theory about the hairnet becomes even more awkward. Why bother with any of this if Lady O can just give Sansa the poison? How could they expect a timid little mouse like Sansa to do it when the time came? And since Lady O was standing right behind Tyrion just before the pie was wheeled in, and this is right where the servant would be holding the plate with the slice on it, why does Lady O need anyone else to do it?

She told Sansa that she was going to bring her to Highgarden the day after the wedding because that’s what she was going to do.  The whole point of poisoning Tyrion was to free Sansa up for a marriage into her House.  Keeping Sansa in King’s landing that long would have just given the Lannisters an opportunity to marry her into someone else in their household, and the whole plan would have been for naught.  So yes I think she had every intention of taking Sansa and leaving the next day regardless of how that looked.  

And what you are ignoring is that Tywin can’t stop her.  That’s why they hurried up and married her to Tyrion.  They know if push comes to shove, that the Tyrells are too strong for the Lannisters to control.  And the Lannisters need the Tyrells more than the Tyrells need the Lannisters.  

And the other thing that Olenna is probably aware of is that even if they suspect foul play with regards to Tyrion’s death they aren’t going to look too hard into it.  If anything, Tyrion’s death removes a problem (and an embarrassment) for Tywin.  He will be safely assured that Tyrion will never get his hands on Casterly Rock.  Tyrion even suspects that the reason that Tywin went to war over his abduction had little to do with any fondness for Tyrion and instead had to do with the Lannister reputation.  That they would be seen as weak if they allowed Tyrion’s abduction to go unpunished.  And that’s the one thing that Tywin detests, being seen as weak.  Now if everyone believed that Tyrion choked on his dinner, then I think that Tywin would be happy to leave everyone with that impression, even if he had his own doubts.

The only reason that Olenna would have to murder Tyrion is his marriage to Sansa, that’s it.  So if she was indeed part of the plan early on, then it’s because she and Petyr anticipated that the Lannisters would marry her to Tyrion.  So the necklace and the poison would be the contingency to something they were pretty sure was going to happen before she had a chance to leave after Margaery’s  wedding.  

What I don’t think that Petyr or Olenna anticipated was that Tyrion would drag his feet about marrying Sansa.  Undoubtably they thought that Tyrion would have jumped at the chance.  But since he dragged his feet, suddenly there was a possibility that Olenna could have taken Sansa to Highgarden before she was married, and thus there was no reason to go along with the poisoning.  And that’s what prompted Petyr to tell the Lannisters about Olenna’s plans, he gave them the impetus to hurry up and force the marriage to Tyrion.

As for awkward, if Tyrion was the target than Sansa becomes the one person who would be in the best position to drop the poison.  Why give the poison to Sansa, only to take it back from her at the wedding, when you aren’t going to be in a good position to poison the intended victim?  It would have been far safer to have kept the poison yourself and bring it with you if you were planning on personally doing the poison.  Leaving it with Sansa only increases the chance of it being discovered, or stolen, or left behind.

So Sansa doesn’t get the poison until the time of the wedding, after she’s been married to the dwarf.  So now she has a very strong motivation to go along with the plan, because she would be desperate to get out of the marriage.  Olenna doesn’t have to take the risk of poisoning Tyrion herself (clean hands) and Sansa is in the best place to deliver the poison at the wedding.

And if Sansa can’t bring herself to poison Tyrion, then it’s’ a shame and she’s stuck with her husband with no one to blame but herself.  Which is why both Olenna and Petyr do everything they can to give her the additional motivations.

In addition to the motivation of ending her marriage to the ugly, unpopular dwarf, Olenna reminds Sansa of her brother’s murder by the Lannisters, and of what’s awaiting her in Highgarden.  And Petyr gets the jousting dwarves who’s purpose IMO, wasn’t to cast guilt on Tyrion for Joffrey’s death, but instead was to give Sansa an additional shame/motivation to drop the poison in Tyrion’s food.  Does she really want to still be married to the joke of King’s Landing.

Where Petyr missteps, is that Sansa really isn’t that shallow.  And of course, Tyrion deftly turns the situation on its head and uses it to embarrass Joffrey.  Instead the proper motivation for Sansa to perhaps go ahead with poisoning Tyrion comes from a completely unforeseen source.  Sansa’s realization that Ice has been destroyed and remade into a Lannister sword.  Something that she can directly relate with.  So her only chance to prevent herself from being broken and remade into a Lannister is to poison Tyrion and get out of her marriage.

Edited February 13 by Frey family reunion

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Hippocras said:

You overlook that the setup did not entirely depend on corcumstances. Witnesses were lined up and ready to accuse Tyrion, and even if he had drunk himself unconscious they would have adapted their stories to fit the moment. The joust was designed to humiliate him and make him publicly angry, and baiting Joffrey to pile on is no hard thing; he loved mocking and humiliating his uncle. So in front of hundreds of witnesses Tyrion's face looked murderous and his rage was focused on Joffrey.

That is really all that was necessary to make the lies of the planted witnesses feel truthful, no matter what circumstances those witnesses needed to adapt the specifics to.

None of those witnesses would have anything to say if Tyrion was nowhere near the chalice the whole night. No amount of "adapting their stories" could overcome that. And the only reason Tyrion was able to touch the chalice is the lengthy series of completely unpredictable split-second decisions both he and Joffrey made after the dwarf joust. If just one of those things failed to happen, the frame-up simply could not happen.

Yes, Joffrey and Tyrion have bad blood between them, and the joust might, emphasis on might, bring that out. But to then know for sure that the chalice will be brought into it, and the Joffrey will place the chalice in the exact place at the exact time it needed to be poisoned is simply impossible. And as we can see from the text, no one, not even Garlan, was close enough to do it without Sansa noticing, let alone the thousand people who are facing it from the other side of the table.

[Melifeather]

But the fact of the matter is, Joffrey was poisoned not Tyrion. So when did Sansa make her choice and why? You present your theory as Tyrion being Sansa's intended target yet Joffrey is the one that got the Strangler. 

We've got three people with motives:

Petyr - wanted a diversion to get Sansa out of Kings Landing. He instigates the marriage to Tyrion to prevent the Tyrells taking Sansa to High Garden to marry Willis. Like you say, how many people would care if Tyrion choked? Would his death provoke as much chaos as Joffrey's? I have to say that this detail alone tips the scale towards Joffrey being Petyr's intended target.

Lady Olenna - wants her granddaughter safe and the only way to do that is kill Joffrey and open a path to a marriage with Tommen who would also be more easily controlled. They do want a marriage to the ruling family, but Joffrey would have been much more difficult to manipulate and she wouldn't want Margaery harmed. The marriage into house Stark was more of a second tier in importance, and Lady Olenna's words seemed hollow to me. I don't believe she was really all that interested in Winterfell. Her words had a polite, but insincere feel to them. Once Sansa was married to Tyrion there was no desire to take her to High Garden, because doing so would put her in direct conflict with Tywin and the assumption that her maidenhead was taken would prohibit the match. It's quite clear then that the only target Lady Olenna was interested in was Joffrey.

Sansa - I still believe her fear of Joffrey and her desire to get miles away from him far outweighed her unwanted marriage to Tyrion. She did hold some hopes that at the very least her marriage protected her from Joffrey. True, her marriage to Tyrion stood in the way of a future match, but Sansa does know that an unconsummated marriage is not a binding one and for that reason she doesn't need to kill him to be free of the marriage.

 

Edited February 13 by Melifeather

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And while it’s possible that she has guilt over Arya and her father, those are emotions she’s had a long time to deal with.  I don’t know if that would cause the sudden onset of hysterical laughing, especially after all the time she spent being punished for her decisions.

True story...forty years ago when my kid's father left me it occurred on the same day that my mother died. Anytime that I tried to speak to people I laughed inappropriately. It's was a dimorphous expression of emotion. When I was at home, I couldn't stop crying. I went into counceling, because the laughing disturbed and embarrassed me. I was so overwhelmed with grief I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown. My counselor told me that the reason why I laughed was because if I didn't, I would be crying, and that it was my brain's way of dealing with the stress of emotions.

I think GRRM's use of dimorphous laughing for Sansa is appropriate considering everything she went through. She went against her father, because she was a naive young girl with unrealistic romantic ideals. She was grieving, not only for her father, but for everything she thought life was supposed to be.

[Alma11]

But, in all of this, how Joffrey didn't sense that there was something in the pie hard to chew? I think that one can notice chewing something the size of a seed. Even if he sallowed before chewing, the same can be said for Tyrion. First, as I said above, Tyrion wouldn't eat in an hurry, I think that there are enough possibilities that he would chew the pie. So, he could've sensed the crystallized poison. Second, if Tyrion wouldn't eat the pie? Or if he would eat the part where there wasn't the poison and put the rest aside?

I think your theory makes sense, it is how it is put in place that doesn't make sense. There are too many risks and uncertainties.

[John Suburbs]

30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

She told Sansa that she was going to bring her to Highgarden the day after the wedding because that’s what she was going to do.  The whole point of poisoning Tyrion was to free Sansa up for a marriage into her House.  Keeping Sansa in King’s landing that long would have just given the Lannisters an opportunity to marry her into someone else in their household, and the whole plan would have been for naught.  So yes I think she had every intention of taking Sansa and leaving the next day regardless of how that looked.  

And what you are ignoring is that Tywin can’t stop her.  That’s why they hurried up and married her to Tyrion.  They know if push comes to shove, that the Tyrells are too strong for the Lannisters to control.  And the Lannisters need the Tyrells more than the Tyrells need the Lannisters.  

Well, first, I checked, and I don't see any mention of bringing Sansa to Highgarden the day after the wedding. Just "soon. When you come to Highgarden after Joffrey and I are wed. My grandmother will take you." Then at the wedding, Olenna says she will be leaving "day after next." But everything has changed by then. The Willas plan was bust and now Olenna is plotting to kill Tyrion. She has no hope of getting Sansa out of the keep under normal circumstances, let alone following the sudden death of her husband. Sorry, but that's the fact.

So no, the whole point of poisoning Tyrion was not to make Sansa a Tyrell, but to keep Tywin from getting the north. That's the real prize here. This is why Olenna had to be in on the escape plan, because otherwise Sansa would eventually be married off to another Lannister and the whole effort would be moot. Olenna has absolutely no hope of sneaking Sansa out herself, only Petyr can do that. And at this point it's better for him to have her than Tywin.

Tywin can most certainly prevent the sudden removal of Tyrion's wife the day after his sudden and suspicious death. She is in mourning and is a prime suspect, and that suspicion will only fall on Olenna if she tries to do what she did before: bring her to Highgarden for a quickie marriage to Willas. So the whole question of insulting Mace is off the table now. Tywin has more than enough cause to deny this highly unusual request, and to keep close tabs on Sansa's whereabouts at all times.

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And the other thing that Olenna is probably aware of is that even if they suspect foul play with regards to Tyrion’s death they aren’t going to look too hard into it.  If anything, Tyrion’s death removes a problem (and an embarrassment) for Tywin.  He will be safely assured that Tyrion will never get his hands on Casterly Rock.  Tyrion even suspects that the reason that Tywin went to war over his abduction had little to do with any fondness for Tyrion and instead had to do with the Lannister reputation.  That they would be seen as weak if they allowed Tyrion’s abduction to go unpunished.  And that’s the one thing that Tywin detests, being seen as weak.  Now if everyone believed that Tyrion choked on his dinner, then I think that Tywin would be happy to leave everyone with that impression, even if he had his own doubts.

Tywin went to war when Tyrion was kidnapped -- yes, not for Tyrion's sake but for Lannister pride. So what makes you think he won't consider Tyrion's murder a matter of Lannister pride and look hard into it that too? They can see that he did not choke as easily as they did with Joffrey. Tyrion was to deliver the North to Tywin, so his death was a major setback. As Lord of Winterfell, he brings a good third of the realm under Tywin's control, and he would have no reason to press a claim to Casterly Rock, especially if, as Tywin is still planning, it goes to Jaime.

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The only reason that Olenna would have to murder Tyrion is his marriage to Sansa, that’s it.  So if she was indeed part of the plan early on, then it’s because she and Petyr anticipated that the Lannisters would marry her to Tyrion.  So the necklace and the poison would be the contingency to something they were pretty sure was going to happen before she had a chance to leave after Margaery’s  wedding.  

Yes, Olenna would not have killed Tyrion if he was not married to Sansa, but that's because their union shifts the balance of power away from Highgarden, which held it for 10,000 years or more, to Casterly Rock. The North is what's important here, not Tyrion or Sansa. They are just means to an end: maintaining military and economic power. For Olenna, that power is not significantly enhanced if Sansa becomes the Lady of Highgarden, but it is significantly degraded if Tyrion becomes Lord of Winterfell. That's why he had to go.

And also note, that this whole situation only came about because Petyr ratted out the Willas plan. So much for Olenna being "part of the plan early on." If that was the case, all he had to do when he heard about the Willas plan from Dontos was tell his co-conspirator to nip this idea in the bud or there will be no hairnet, no poisoning, no rescue, no nothing. Instead, he tells the Lannisters, knowing they will quick-marry her to one of their own, and Tyrion is the most likely groom. Now, instead of getting a maiden Sansa he gets a soiled one, by that vile imp no less. It's only when we look at it from the perspective that Olenna knew nothing about Petyr's plans, or the hairnet, or the poison, until after Sansa wed Tyrion does it all make sense. At the dinner, she was truly intending to bring Sansa to Highgarden after Margaery was safely wed. But then, due to Petr's machinations, she agreed to kill Tyrion when he became a principal threat to the Reach's security.

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What I don’t think that Petyr or Olenna anticipated was that Tyrion would drag his feet about marrying Sansa.  Undoubtably they thought that Tyrion would have jumped at the chance.  But since he dragged his feet, suddenly there was a possibility that Olenna could have taken Sansa to Highgarden before she was married, and thus there was no reason to go along with the poisoning.  And that’s what prompted Petyr to tell the Lannisters about Olenna’s plans, he gave them the impetus to hurry up and force the marriage to Tyrion.

Tyrion did not drag his feet about marrying Sansa. He questioned it briefly when he first heard about it, and then the marriage took place almost immediately. And Petyr had already told the Lannisters about the Willas plan, so any delay from that point is irrelevant to that decision. That's what prompted the marriage in the first place.

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As for awkward, if Tyrion was the target than Sansa becomes the one person who would be in the best position to drop the poison.  Why give the poison to Sansa, only to take it back from her at the wedding, when you aren’t going to be in a good position to poison the intended victim?  It would have been far safer to have kept the poison yourself and bring it with you if you were planning on personally doing the poison.  Leaving it with Sansa only increases the chance of it being discovered, or stolen, or left behind.

The only reason for the hairnet is because Olenna was not part of the plan yet. All Petyr had at that point was Sansa and the poison. He knew he needed a distraction to get her out of the capital without a little bird seeing, but he doesn't know who the poisoner or the victim will be yet -- just that he needs all four of these elements together in order to pull this off. So where to keep the poison? He can hold it himself, but then he has to trust someone else to deliver it later, when the chaos of the battle has died down. Can he give it to Dontos? No, at best he'll sell it and go on a bender; at worst he'll rat him out. His eventual poisoner? Risky, since it could be a trap, and any poisoner capable of doing this job will rightly be suspicious for the same reason. The best thing is to give it to Sansa without her knowing what it is -- just that it is her salvation. So at least he has these two elements in place for when the job is done. Now, all he needs is a poisoner and a target, which both came into place with the marriage to Tyrion. In one stroke, Petyr created both the victim and the motivation for the poisoner to kill him for her reasons, not his.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

None of those witnesses would have anything to say if Tyrion was nowhere near the chalice the whole night. No amount of "adapting their stories" could overcome that.

Why did it necessarily have to be the chalice? Really, the poison could have been planted in other ways, Olena just needed to find the right moment. But even if it did have to be the wine, Olena and Marge were right there to prod Joffrey in the right direction if needed. 

The key was IMO to kill Joffrey, and framing Tyrion was a bonus. If framing him had not worked, LF could always find another way to get rid of him. However chances were high that it would work because suspicion would automatically be on those at the High Table, and Tyrion was the one with the most obvious history of animosity with Joffrey.

[the trees have eyes]

@Frey family reunion Good stuff, I enjoyed this and a lot of thought and effort went into it 

In general I think what Sansa knows or suspects and what she suppresses could be explored a bit more - for a while I thought you might be going full "Sansa Durden" but her concealed memory seems quite specific and limited.  The hairnet symbolises home but no thought of how it is to deliver home or what magic is in the black amethysts appears in the text before Sansa's post facto realisation that there was poison in at least one of the stones but if she is to take Oleanna's cue she must be in the know or have figured it out.  Otherwise this is the only planned murder when the murderer doesn't know until the last moment that they are supposed to carry it out (rather than flee in the confusion afterwards) or how they are supposed to do so.

I have to say I have always been happy with the surface story that Oleanna took the smuggled poison from her hairnet and either she or one of the Tyrells slipped it into the chalice but ever since you referenced Sansa watching Joffrey and fiddling with her hair in a previous thread I have been open to the idea that she may have decided to try and poison Joffrey.  This ofc requires her to understand she carries poison in her hairnet, raises the possibility that both she and Oleanna are looking for opportunities to poison Joffrey (or Tyrion for argument's sake) and leaned on my faulty transposition of Joffrey threatening to get a child on Sansa from her wedding to Tyrion to Joffrey's wedding to Margaery, an extremely sharp spur to action.  The realisation of what happened to Ice and what may happen to her if she does not escape does give a spur to action but Joffrey seems the greater threat and who "justice for your father, vengeance" would be targeted at rather than Tyrion.  How not when she begged Joffrey for mercy for her father and he gave her his twisted idea of "justice" instead?

For Sansa has every reason to want Joffrey dead.  He executed her father in front of her despite her pleas, bullied and humiliated her during their betrothal and even though she is married to his uncle he threatens to sleep with her whenever he wants.  She is not free of him and he is as much a danger to her as Oleanna perceives Joffrey to be to Margaery.  Tyrion, in contrast, tells her he won't touch her until she wants him to and has been as good as his word.  Would she like to be free of him and of all Lannisters?  Absolutely, yes, it's why "Come to the Godswood if you want to go home" is electrifying for her but Joffrey is the larger danger and when Lysa questions her on why Tyrion never slept with her she thinks "Because he was kind".  When Dontos first gives Sansa the hairnet he tells her it's justice for her father, vengeance and home: thematically the intended target is surely Joffrey not Tyrion.

The problems of trying to get a coherent picture of what really happened at the purple wedding are significant and there have been many threads and discussions on distance to object, motive, the properties of the strangler, sublimation and a pie vs chalice debate that although very sharp reminds me of The Life of Brian's Gourd and Sandal factions.  Tyrion is our only pov but he is unaware of what is afoot and draws our attention to the chalice; Sansa is present but affects confusion and then a horrified realisation in her pov afterwards where Dontos appears to draw our attention to the pie; LF offers a clear explanation later of what happened and why but he is the most manipulative liar in the whole story; Oleanna is not a pov and we have no reliable way of determining her actions or intentions.  For me it's quite plausible that Oleanna and LF are lying to and using each other: Oleanna pretends to want to kill Tyrion to gain LF's questionable alliance in the scheme while aiming for Joffrey.

Beyond that we have GRRM stating that the way he resolves mysteries may be less satisfying to the readership than what they theorise may be the answer - who sent the catspaw to murder Bran springs to mind.  That seems a strong possibility here and it is exacerbated by the problems of how the strangler was delivered and how opaque individual's motives and how reliable their memories and stated intentions are.

Sansa tells herself to be brave on the morning of the wedding but this can simply be mustering resolve to escape, itself dangerous and daunting for a 13/14 year old girl not used to taking risks and this is a very big risk: if it fails and she is caught she will suffer repercussions and will be more closely watched in future.  Her terror after the wedding when she realises one of the amethysts is missing is genuine (unless we posit a repressed memory) and she seems to realise for the first time it was poison.  If she was the poisoner there seems missed opportunity for her character development or conflict between her Alayne persona and Sansa though you could argue that may emerge later.  But if the target was Tyrion why is Dontos so unconcerned that Joffrey has been poisoned instead, regicide being a far, far more dangerous proposition than the murder of a dwarf very low in standing with the king?; indeed Dontos is positively crowing at how well everything has gone.

And yet she is told the hairnet has a purpose at the very beginning, however much she concentrates solely on home of it's three promised purposes (and home ironically is the only one of the three that is a lie), Oleanna may not just be wittering away to her while she retrieves (or notifies her of) the poison, Sansa does fiddle with her hair at a convenient moment, she is at the table and close to both chalice and pie and has reason to want both Tyrion and Joffrey dead.

Honestly I still think the Tyrells as poisoners is most likely but I think there is the potential to see different motives, different poisoners and different targets - perhaps more than one scheme, or Sansa acting off plan, happening at the same time to add to the difficulty in getting a definitive edition of events - and there are some hints that raise questions about what Sansa knew or did.

Well done 

Edited February 15 by the trees have eyes
Python misattribution!

[Melifeather]

Surely you haven't forgotten the beatings Sansa took from Joffrey's Kingsguard? A complete re-read of Clash Sansa 3 is quite horrifying. In it Joffrey informs Sansa that her brother Robb had fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, that thousands were butchered and that the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain. Joffrey pointed a loaded crossbow directly into her face telling her that his mother told him not to shoot her or Robb might kill Jaime. Joffrey instructed Ser Boros to strike her, but to "leave her face". Boros slammed a fist into her belly, driving the air out of her. Then he grabbed her hair, drew his sword, and laid the flat of the blade across her thighs. Sansa thought her legs would break from the force of the blows. Next, Boros shoved his hand down her bodice and ripped her dress open to her waist, bearing her breasts. It would have gone much farther had Tyrion not walked in then and stopped them.

The next Sansa chapter she's begging Dontos to take her away, but he refuses. He gives her the news that a ship has been procured, but because they are at war the river has been closed off. It is notable to remember that they are planning their escape well ahead of any inkling that she may be married off to Tyrion. All she wants is to get away from Joffrey.

We are told that the Strangler dissolves in wine. We don't know if it would have dissolved in the pigeon pie. Tyrion had his hands on Joffrey's chalice. Dontos is the one that suggested the pie, but maybe he just didn't know where the Strangler was dropped or he was simply repeating what was said at the feast. If he knew it was Tyrion - and he pointed out that Tyrion had been arrested - he could have built on that and said Joffrey choked on his wine, but you don't typically block your airway with wine. Windpipes get closed off from food so to say that Joffrey choked on his pie was a denial that the amethysts were poisonous.

Margery's mother, Lady Alerie - who may have known about the Strangler - was the first to say Joffrey choked on his pie.

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII

His sister sat in a puddle of wine, cradling her son's body. Her gown was torn and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse. "The boy is gone, Cersei," Lord Tywin said. He put his gloved hand on his daughter's shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog. "Unhand him now. Let him go." She did not hear. It took two Kingsguard to pry loose her fingers, so the body of King Joffrey Baratheon could slide limp and lifeless to the floor.

The High Septon knelt beside him. "Father Above, judge our good King Joffrey justly," he intoned, beginning the prayer for the dead. Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, "He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw."

"He did not choke." Cersei's voice was sharp as Ser Ilyn's sword. "My son was poisoned." She looked to the white knights standing helplessly around her. "Kingsguard, do your duty."

 

Everyone seeing how he choked was very important to getting away with the crime. Dontos was at the feast so he heard what Lady Alerie had said in consolation AND very importantly a simple suggestion for everyone within hearing to be passed around as rumor and to point the finger of blame away from Margaery. She could just as easily be seen as a suspect just as Tyrion was. Dontos wanted to reassure Sansa by copying Lady Alerie.

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa V

"There was murder in them!"

"Softly, my lady, softly. No murder. He choked on his pigeon pie." Dontos chortled. "Oh, tasty tasty pie. Silver and stones, that's all it was, silver and stone and magic."

The bells were tolling, and the wind was making a noise like he had made as he tried to suck a breath of air. "You poisoned him. You did. You took a stone from my hair . . ."

 

Sansa accused Ser Dontos of removing a stone from the hairnet. Dontos was at that feast. He would know if Sansa did it, but he doesn't accuse her. I think that drunken fool really thinks it was magic that made Joffrey choke and it must have been on the pie. He was so excited to see the magic work that he chortled.

Edited February 13 by Melifeather

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, first, I checked, and I don't see any mention of bringing Sansa to Highgarden the day after the wedding. Just "soon. When you come to Highgarden after Joffrey and I are wed. My grandmother will take you." Then at the wedding, Olenna says she will be leaving "day after next." But everything has changed by then. The Willas plan was bust and now Olenna is plotting to kill Tyrion. She has no hope of getting Sansa out of the keep under normal circumstances, let alone following the sudden death of her husband. Sorry, but that's the fact.

It’s the discussion at the wedding I’m referring to.  Olenna should know by that time that Tyrion was going to be poisoned and she tells Sansa when they were leaving.  I don’t have any reason to believe that Olenna was lying.  The Willas plan isn’t a bust, not once Tyrion is dead.  Once Tyrion dies, Sansa is free to marry Willas.  That’s why they need to get Sansa out quickly, they don’t want to wait for the Lannisters to find someone else to marry her.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So no, the whole point of poisoning Tyrion was not to make Sansa a Tyrell, but to keep Tywin from getting the north. That's the real prize here. This is why Olenna had to be in on the escape plan, because otherwise Sansa would eventually be married off to another Lannister and the whole effort would be moot. Olenna has absolutely no hope of sneaking Sansa out herself, only Petyr can do that. And at this point it's better for him to have her than Tywin.

Keeping Sansa in King’s Landing for an extended period of time would have ensured that Sansa would have been remarried to a Lannister.  And yes, the whole point/benefit of poisoning Tyrion, for Olenna, would have been to make Sansa a Tyrell.  Which then gives the Tyrells a claim to Winterfell.  But to do so they need to get her to Highgarden quickly after Tyrion’s death.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And also note, that this whole situation only came about because Petyr ratted out the Willas plan. So much for Olenna being "part of the plan early on." If that was the case, all he had to do when he heard about the Willas plan from Dontos was tell his co-conspirator to nip this idea in the bud or there will be no hairnet, no poisoning, no rescue, no nothing. Instead, he tells the Lannisters, knowing they will quick-marry her to one of their own, and Tyrion is the most likely groom. Now, instead of getting a maiden Sansa he gets a soiled one, by that vile imp no less. It's only when we look at it from the perspective that Olenna knew nothing about Petyr's plans, or the hairnet, or the poison, until after Sansa wed Tyrion does it all make sense. At the dinner, she was truly intending to bring Sansa to Highgarden after Margaery was safely wed. But then, due to Petr's machinations, she agreed to kill Tyrion when he became a principal threat to the Reach's security.

Of course Olenna was in on the plan in the beginning.  Do you think Dontos pulled her aside in King’s Landing and told her “hey just for your info, Sansa is going to have a whole lot of poison in her hairnet the day of the wedding, feel free to help yourself”.  That’s absurd.  The only way that Olenna knows about the hair net (and Petyr knows that Olenna knows about the hairnet) is if she and Petyr came up with this idea in Highgarden.  Once it was settled that the Joffrey is going to break off his engagement with Sansa, Olenna is going to be very interested in laying a claim to Sansa.  They both agree that the Lannisters will probably marry her off to Tyrion before they can bring her to Highgarden so they make the contingency plan concerning the hair net.  Olenna is most probably the one who supplied it.  

But there is no reason for Olenna to go through with the poisoning if Sansa is not married after Joffrey’s wedding.  Then they can take her to Highgarden without the need to poison anyone.  Petyr ratted out their plan to the Lannisters because his plan to snatch Sansa for himself relied on the poisoning at the wedding.  Plus he really hated Tyrion.  So he felt the need to hurry up and get Sansa married before Joffrey’s wedding.  This is Petyr’s way of ensuring the marriage to Tyrion takes place in time.  

Dontos does try to nip the idea in the bud, but Sansa doesn’t care.  Once she is given the invite to Highgarden she feels no need to run off with Dontos on the day of the wedding.  It’s only when she’s married to Tyrion that she has no choice but to go ahead with their plan.  Of course their plan also concerns getting ride of her husband.  Which is the only reason Sansa would go along with it.  That’s the only way she becomes truly free of the Lannisters.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tyrion did not drag his feet about marrying Sansa. He questioned it briefly when he first heard about it, and then the marriage took place almost immediately. And Petyr had already told the Lannisters about the Willas plan, so any delay from that point is irrelevant to that decision. That's what prompted the marriage in the first place.

I’d have to go back and look at the sequence, you may be right but it doesn’t matter.  Olenna’s only concern is getting Sansa to Highgarden free to marry Willas.  If she has to help poison a dwarf husband of Sansa so be it.  But if she doesn’t that’s even better.  Petyr’s secret plan to snatch Sansa for himself completely relies on the poisoning at the wedding.   Hence, Littlefinger ensuring that Sansa gets married to Tyrion.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The only reason for the hairnet is because Olenna was not part of the plan yet. All Petyr had at that point was Sansa and the poison. He knew he needed a distraction to get her out of the capital without a little bird seeing, but he doesn't know who the poisoner or the victim will be yet -- just that he needs all four of these elements together in order to pull this off. So where to keep the poison? He can hold it himself, but then he has to trust someone else to deliver it later, when the chaos of the battle has died down. Can he give it to Dontos? No, at best he'll sell it and go on a bender; at worst he'll rat him out. His eventual poisoner? Risky, since it could be a trap, and any poisoner capable of doing this job will rightly be suspicious for the same reason. The best thing is to give it to Sansa without her knowing what it is -- just that it is her salvation. So at least he has these two elements in place for when the job is done. Now, all he needs is a poisoner and a target, which both came into place with the marriage to Tyrion. In one stroke, Petyr created both the victim and the motivation for the poisoner to kill him for her reasons, not his.

The reason for the hair net is that is how Olenna is going to pass to Sansa the poison on the day of the wedding, through her hair net.   Olenna is going to pass the poison to Sansa because Sansa is realistically the only one who’s going to be in the position to surreptitiously poison Tyrion at the wedding.  But until then there is absolutely no reason to give Sansa the poison.  They have to make sure that she’s willing.  It’s her marriage to Tyrion that gives her the desperation to go along with the plan.  (It’s also why on the day of the wedding Sansa tries to summon up the courage of her warrior brother).  

There is no way that Olenna is just going to blindly take a gem from Sansa’s hair net on the word of Littlefinger or Dontos that it’s poison.  The only way that she agrees with this plan is that she helps come up with this plan.  Olenna is not a pawn to do Petyr’s bidding.  

Olenna gives the hairnet to Petyr to have Petyr give it to Sansa.  Petyr has Dontos give the hair net to Sansa, with the instruction to wear it on the day of the wedding.  For Olenna, the hairnet will only be necessary if Sansa is married.  Olenna supplies the poison, Petyr supplies the poisoner.  Both keep their hands clean and get someone else to do the dirty work for them.  In this case, it’s a young girl who both believe will be so desperate to get out of a marriage to Tyrion that she’ll be willing to do their dirty work for them.  

Edited February 13 by Frey family reunion