Jump to content


  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

About frenin

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. frenin

    Dany and child murder

    It's genocide, no one has denied that, but a culture that hate the Hoares because they were tolerant and hated their new iron price. In Harrenhall lived a lof of inocents too. She didn't ended slavery, she postoponed it but she was following the mereenese bs at the letter and they were playing her like they wanted, the pits were reopened, what progress are you talking about?? Dany was giving herself in and they were preparing her deathbed. The author is making her fighting slavery and he is making slavers irredeemable assholes, he is not saying you should not do it, but more like take care with that path. Bs, Jaeharys benefited from Maegor's campaign and he loved so much parading his dragons that even in Braavos knew what his deal was, there is no single good ruler in the story that wasn't part or was killing to be part monster if necessary, not a single one, or do you think Jaeharys took his dragons to Oldtown just for fin?? All the Targs are obsesive, Jaeharys thought he was a god among men, Egg well, there is no need to talk about Egg and his brothers. I think that what makes people think Dany should take Tywin's route is the fact she is fighting slavery and Slavery can't end without blood. She was in a corner and her hand was forced, that's why she reintroduce slavery.
  2. frenin

    Dany and child murder

    An entire culture of rapers, reavers and slavers... Nor do i think why Dany would do that, Tywin is far more cruel thsn Dany will ever be, i don't think you can find better words for the Conqueror's campaign in Dorne than senseless genocide and etc, yet those men were perfectly sane and capable oh holding their psycho impulses yet Dany can't. Because it's quite clear that she wasn't ending slavery, she was just posponing it, she makes very bad calls, the hostage situation is the most glaring of them, Ned Stark would've not flinched in doing his duty but if you don't have the nerve, understandably, don't pick children hostages, They tried to end her life, at the end she was reintroducing slavery again, etc.
  3. frenin

    R+L=J v.166

    @Lord Varys Avoiding the shunning of the new administration?? Avoiding any possible retaliation of the new administration, the new administration promoting other Houses in the west to rival the Lannisters... it's not about getting any rewards, it's about not being in the blacklist and what that could entail. No it didn't, Tywin took a city the rebels were about to take, he wasn't in a position to demand much, Walder Frey (who puls the same sneaky) perfectly knows he's not getting nothing for arrive late to the party but he didn't want to end like poor old Lord Goodbrok when rebel leader Hoster comes up before his door demanding why the hell he didn't followed his liege, he knows he is getting nothing but he also knows he stands to lose a lot, so he jumps in, in the last minute, Tywin, as he says as much, does the same, Cerseor any juicy rewards wasn't in his mind when he made his move. No, not the same thing, Tywin couldn't go after Jaime even if he wanted, it's not that he didn't give a fuck about Jaime, just like Robb cared about his sisters but was realistic. I never argued the fact that Tywin would fight, he wouldn't have other option, i' ve discussed the fact that Tywin would rather that option instead of you know atually back Robert and defeat Viserys No, Tywin sent Gregor incognito so the Riverlords were dumb enough to break the King's Peace, he only invaded the Riverlands after Robert was dead and Ned was seized. Yeah but Caesar was dead after he decided attack Rome if he were to lose, just as Tywin is dead if a Targ comes to power and more specifically if Viserys comes to power. Feeling that you'll get stuck here and you'll go round and round and and unfortunately, my knowledge about Roman civil wars is not very deep, i'll cut to the chase so you can't elude the obvious. So when i say the Sack was Tywin's Rubicon, i think you understand perfectly what i'm saying, if i say Alea iacta est, i'm saying the same, Tywin had made his mind and had to stuck with his decision because there would be no longer a place for him in a Targ regime after the Sack. He was killed specifically because of the incest, Cersei wanted to kill her true enough but she wanted to wait, Cersei motive to kill him in such a hurry was because was either her and her family or Robert. You do keep discussing your own strawman here, Tywin betraying Robert because he already has royal grandsons in no way is comparable to Tywin betraying Robert for Viserys when the guy is coming for them, if I said that Ned is likely to betray Robert for Viserys because he already has betrayed him by not telling him he was raising Robert's greatest enemy. Is like apples to oranges painted red to look like apples. I do think that there would be a lot of wounds, that's not a reason why Viserys would not take the chance to finish a foe he can never come to trust, there is a necessity to deal with Tywin, that's not an option. And Cregan didn't go on his mad quest because those regions actually surrendered, Cregan only had his northern armies and a few levies of the Riverlands to go an take on 3 Kingdoms with the mightiest castles, Viserys would have the power of all the Kingdoms and only would be dealing with the Westerlands, why Viserys could not trust on those levies i wonder?? He is sending them to attack one of the most reviled man in Westeros or do you think the rebels would just forget that the man has just betrayed their beloved Kongs and lieges?? A mad quest in Westeros actually offers plunder an insane amount of gold and a further unification of Westeros under his banner, just as Westeros rallied around Robert and the Young Dragon when they were facing the Ib and Dornish. It's not even about wanting, Tywin needs to be dealt with, you just can't leave the Westerlands in a limbo, nor you can offer him a pardon (the folly of this idea can't be stated enough), nor you have any reason to do that and allow the second most powerful region become another Dorne while those you hate are at charge of it and you don't know neither you trust about what they would be doing there. Call the banners, say you're avenging Rhaegar' sweet kids, i don't think the rebels give a damn about them tho but they sure as hell would want to avenge Tywin's betrayal and they'd be as thirsty for Lannister blood as half the Realm is now, there is no better cause to rally the Targ loyalist and even if you are of the opinion the IB wouldn't just smell blood and go for it, Viserys offering a free pass on whatever the hell they might do in Lannisport and some good Casterly Rock's gold can and would do the trick, he can sweettalk the Western lords, or threaten them, he can pardon them or bribe thm with Casterly Rock and the title of LP or he could just crush them, it's not a difficult task, not the war but the siege would last for years, neither is mad quest giving the fact that Viserys is the winner in those scenatios he doesn't get Red Krakened, Viserys would get his vengeancem some Houses gold and other the Westerlands, seems doable. The idea that after Tywin shows up to be a two times traitor and becomes a two times traitor and gets away with the murder is hilarious, the amount of people who would want to find out if he really does shit gold would be higher than Casterly Rock, the only outcome that is ludicrous is that in which Tywin simply walks away, even when absolutely everybody hates him, he still gets to walk away because he's Tywin, taking the Westerlands would somehow become harder than invading the North during the long night, Viserys would not and even if he does he'd be turned down, any hostages from the Westerlands families to ensure future loyalties and ease a possible invasion, he don't even tries to win over the westermen, those men, who reportedly only fear Tywin would somehow remain loyal etc, this scenario is a miracle more than a possibility. And if the Baratheons are dead, around whom those Baratheon loyalists would rally around?? The point is, Tywin couldn't do that nor he'll be willing to do that. Ofc, you also need to ignore the context in which those people made peace, a mysterious and miraculous letter and a mad pious ma, Viserys has neither. Yeah and he could go and try to believe that Tytos Lannister was the one sacking KL and betraying his father. Not at all but it's not a chance you want to take. Sellswords and merchants don't fight for promises, Westerosi do fight for promises. O, we absolutely can all Westeros have enough power to deal with the Westerlands even after a brutal war, i don't see why lords would turn their noses in taking on Tywin. Wven if you want to believe that Westeros has not enough manpower to defeat the West, that only buys Tywin a few years with a damocles sword on his head. No, Richer isn't the same as more powerful, i don't remember no one saying Corlys Velaryon was more powerful than his King, nor do i ever heard Lymand Lannister were more powerful than Jaeharys or the Manderlys than the Starks. I knew that was coming, the Manderlys never acted against the Starks nor they ever were the Starks rivals., Roose only acted because there was a civil war the Starks seemed to be about to lose and that was his time, the Reynes and Tarbecks didn't have the power to actually commit treason against the crown and end the Lannisters, just as the Boltons didn't betray the Starks after all the shit that happened to them after Cregan and Rickon died but Robb Reyne and the Tarbecks sure as hell rebelled against the Grey Lion and supported the Black Dragon, what do you think would've happened to all those Great Houses whose mightiest bannermen betrayed them for Daemon?? In a war that aimed to chanfe completely the status quo?? Or do you think the Reynes, the Yronwoods and the Brackens and the Peakes and Osgreys fought for Daemon without wanting to depose their overlords or trying to get back status and power they thought they were stolen?? The Boltons had been loyal for centuries and we do see the Houses and smallfolk in the North do consider the Starks their natural leaders, otherwise Ramsay would've never married Arya Stark, we wouldn't have ceaseless reminders about how loved and respected were The Ned and the Starks and the promises that were made we wouldn't have Dustin saying Jeune's cries are worse than Stannis ecause the northern lords love the Starks and they love the Ned's little girl, we wouldn't have three sides, Stannis, Manderly and Roose trying to use the Stark name as way of rallying the lords into their respectives agendas and a long etc Have we ever had anything like that in the Westerlands?? In this dire moment in which, Dany, Young G and Stannis are coming in their times to finish off the weakened lion, did we ever seen a loyalty sample such as we see in the North after Robb and House Stark's fall?? No one in the Westerlands, not Lannisport, love the Lannisters, they merely feared them and that fear was useful when they had two great leaders in Tywin and Kevan, how many Western Lords do you think will stick around to protect Cersei and the kids?? Even after her House has been attainted and defeated, after the Crown has chosen another Warden of the North, everyone from Dorne to the Wall, from Oberyn Martell to Lysa Arryn acknowledges as the Lady of Winterfel or the key to the North, no one seem to be of Roose as something more than a momentary patch, even after all that has happened to her House, Sansa Stark still is the most eligible woman in the Westeros and we see the Tyrells, the Arryns and the Lannisters fighting over her, they all want this ruined woman, because they all know that no matter what, only Stark blood can win the North, Roose know that as much and that's why he's marrying his son to Arya. Do you think people would go to that lenght for Cersei had the Lannisters were defeated?? Or the Tyrells?? We've seen how the Tullys' been attainted and stripped of all and nothing had happened, the Arryns must be the only southern Kingdom whose ties with their land seemed really strong, neither the Lannister and ofc not the upjumped Tullys and Tyrells have that connection with their land and Lords so far. The Royces btw have never betrayed the Arryns till our knowledge reach. Jaime's words put it perfectly, the thought that the Reynes were not just waiting for the opportunity as Roose were but they just thought the Lannisters couldn't go is just funny. ... Visenya never said the Castle couldn't be taken, if she ever said those words and it's not just PR or just Visenya overpraising a mighty Castle, she said that dragonflame wouldn't tame Loren, which is true enough, you can't just burn a Rock three times higher than the Wall with just three dragons, that doesn't mean the Castle can't be taken if the siege lasts long enough, the only logical conclussion to draw from "Casterly Rock can't be taken by siege" is that the castle has infinite water and food resources, which is just ludicrous. One thing is that the siege might be long but the idea that it can't be taken is absurd to incredible degree. Do you thibk so?? The sexuality and women treatment seem to be actually a religious problem too, the rule of six is an evidence of this, not that they do not follow the Faith but their faith is a bit different.
  4. frenin

    R+L=J v.166

    @Lord Varys Yes he had an ulterior motive and that motive said by Tywin and Jaime themselves, was just being on the winning side, nothing else, no bride involved. Tywin never acted to position himself to demand a marriage, when he acted he knew and accepted marriage was out of the table, at least in Robert case and he was fine with it, retconning Tywin's motive so you can alledge wounded pride so him might pull a very stupid and suicidal move don't matter. He didn't have much options than to wage war and ignore Jaime, as he himself put it, they were surrounded if he were togo after Jaime he risked not only defeat but the destruction of all his efforts and legacy, not the same situation at all. He feared him enough to not invade the Riverlands why he was still breathing, he wouldn't fear Robert the same way he feared Tywin because Robert wasn't mad and they actually had family ties after the marriage. And he did crawl before Robert. Yeah, just to face Viserys wrath alone, you don't seem to understand that the Sack was Tywin's Rubicon and that is a one way road, there is no chance Viserys would let Jaime and Tywin keep their heads and Tywin has no hope against a united Westeros, he is not making suicidal moves just for pride, he can make very stupid ones, but not straight up suicidal. And that would again mean that Tywin plana were marrying Robert to Cersei and he was not havinh other outcome, that's simply not true. In my book this is the definition of Strawman and affirming the consequent, Is the incest related to the Viserys and Robert's affair we're discussing now?? Is the context even similar?? Tywin betraying Robert because he already had a royal grandson and Robert was becoming an inssufferable ass is not the same situation than Tywin betraying Robert knowing that Viserys is coming for them. Comparing both situations is And no, Tywin didn't know about Robert's murder, but that's a road i have few interest in wasting my time in. Btw if Tywin already got everything he needs Robert for and being a man who only is loyal to himself, makes sense that Tywin betrays Robert if his grandson is up to succeed Robert, it makes less sense Tywin betraying Robert with Viserys at the gates Not that bloody war and it's a matter of trust, you don't let someone you can't trust at charge of Casterly Rock. To defend your arguments you are just like those realpolitiks memes, if you tell me that people die in wars i'll be convinced. Yes, Aegon made peace with Dorne after both sides had raised hell on each other, therefore there was reckoning involved in both parties and even then the peace was very disliked,and even then he had to be convinced by a letter whose content we will never know, Baelor the Blessed was called the Blessed for a very specifical reason, do you think Viserys is going to walk barefoot from the Red Keep to Lannisport?? If you keep ignoring the context, personalities etc, to make yourn own sharpshooter point... Your examples keep getting better and better, Lmao, you are just like Tywin right, you do think people are as weak as atupid as you think they are, there was a whole retinue of Great Lords and petty Lords and knight that day in the Red Keep and everyone saw Tywin wrapping the bodies of the dead children an presenting them to Robert as a loyalty test, everyone saw and heard Ned demanding Gregor and Lorch's heads and arguing with Robert, while Tywin Lannister foolishly affirms that Oberyn does not know anything of what happened, Oberyn directly tells Tyrion that they got the truth out Jon Arryn when he went to Sunspear, everyone in Westeros know Tywin is responsible, they don't suspect it, they know it, they are as sure about that as they are his son is a kingslayer. The only ones that apparently think people think differently are you and Tywin. People don't act against him because the man is sheltered enough, not because someone buys his feebles plausible deniability bs or because no one is sure aboout what happened there, If you think someone is going to give two fucks about Tywin denying everything or demanding evidences you are delluding yourself. There couldn't, Tywin is an old man, but Walder Frey is even older and there was no sign from Tywin of old age or disease. Why not?? Tywin is the last man standing, taking him down means you end with all the enemies of the Targs and if the treasury is empty the more reason to take Casterly Rock, not that much people to kill, bribe the wae willed lords and defeat the most loyalist and then siege the Rock, not that difficult, Casterly Rock is a prize he can give to his followers. Yeah, but that doesn't mean Dorne can't have 40000-45000 men. And we can be sure that a war torn Westeros manpower is higher than 50000 swords. Meaning that... Only those poorer than the crown are their subjects?? What logic is that?? Were the Velaryons only subjects in name during Corlys time?? Were the Manderlys subjects in name during the Stark Kings reign?? No, from those regions only the North look its overlord as their natural leader, we don't have a reason to believe that happens too with the Vale and especially the Rock. The North, the Iron Islands and Dorne, due to their geographical position, culture and religion, in the Dornish case their way of approaching religion, are almost completely isolated from the Crown, Dorne and especially the IB in a larger degree than the North, but all the other southern kingdoms are all heavily influenced by the Iron Throne. Taking the North implies a full heavy invasion to the biggest Kingdom and one of the most unknowns and with a weather very unwelcoming to foreigners, taking the Eyrie implies armies bloodying in the Red Gates, taking Casterly Rock only means a siege, the vast city is a liability if not protected effectively. Really the only issue with Casterly Rock is how many time passes until they are run out of food if they can't move the gold because the siege they'd better eat it because there is no more use for it. The hype is talking again Yes, the man bornt once in a thousand years could rehire Vargo Hoat again... Seriosly, a man defeated by Edmure Tully is not a man to have in a pedestal, i would rather face Tywin over any of his sons any day. Yeah, but Tywin Lannister, especially old Tywin is not that great General, he is not a man used to those strategies aymore, he is a man who heavily relies in numerical superiority to deal with his foes. Viserys could've used his head an ordered an invasion by all fronts, including sea, so divide Tywin's forces, honestly yes Viserys could've had a heart attack and Tywin had prevailed, that's not very likely, just as it's not likely Tywin defeating a united Westeros, Tywin the better general and commander... lmao, i thought we were leaving the propaganda aside, the only thing Viserys would need to defeat Tywin is Edmure's advice, with that he has completely neutralized the legend and the myth. I won't even bother with this, you're right. You just keep using contexts and peoples with personalities so alike as Viserys... Oberyn put himself in the trial, no one pushed him and Ellaria's actual plea was that those who killed Elia and the kids are dead, Tywin is dead, Ned dead, Bobby B dead, Jon Arryn dead, Tywin's dogs dead even Joff who had nothing to do with it is dead, she said that there was no reason for more vengeance... because their objective is done and she is right, she is not saying, let's forgive those who killed our kin and let them with power positions but, there are no more enemies in the field you're targetting innocents. Tywin, Lorch, Clegane and Jaime would be very alive, is Tywin going to sacrifice himself so his House might live in your scenario or you're just going to keep comparing apple with oranges until you finally you find an example that serves you, not to leave it anymore?? But sure, Robert is forgiving Cersei and reaffirming Joff status as heir for a promise of a good fuck, Stannis and Renly are doing the same for nothing, Aerys is forgiving the rebels and Edmure is forgiving his sister and nephews butchers because why not, if Baerlor the Blessed could, why not everybody?? Because he's Tywin... Tywin only fought against Robb in the Riverlands, later with the Tyrells against Stannis in the Blackwater and finally blessed the Red Wedding, that was what not particularly afraid Tywin did. He never took on Renly, he more than gladly allowed the Tyrells in, otherwise Robb would just beat him and he never had a plan against him either. He never thought Renly and Stannis were crowning themselves, he never expected any of the events after Whispering woods, and ofc he had no more choice but to fight to the bitter end, all those Kings wanted him dead, he was not particularly afraid, we left Tywin when Tyrion left his camp and that's prior Renly and Stannis crownings and Tywin not showing his emotions is meaningful?? If he looks like a heartless robot means you can trust him?? this hype, only hype talking. I will repeat it to you, he never expected all the 7K to raise against him because he didn't have a reason to suspect it, he never wage a war against all of them, that wouuld mean he actually was fighting in all the fronts and that's a lie he only fought against Robb until the Blackwater when he joined the Tyrells. Saying Tyywin faced the entire Realm would as absurd as saying Robb faced the entire Realm, Balon faced the entire Realm when he rebelled again or Stannis faced the entire Realm, your idea of the entire Realm implies fighting against two, at best, of the Kingdoms, Tywin's propaganda is a very bad thing. Ah now are the cowards, yeah no one defected because in his lowest point, God showed him mervy and his dwarf son handed him the Tyrells, I would like to see how many not cowards would've remained after the West was sacked and KL had fallen to Stannis. As other user had resumed better than i did. @corbon We know what Tywin main plan was and it wasn't Ned going to the Riverlands, the idea of Tywin daring to attack Robert is stupid, i won't even try that, it's your Tywin can do anything, ok. Tywin thinking he can get away with a guess because Robert is too lazy to notice it is not the same as Tywin thinking he can take on the crown. Tywin could not know Ned would lead the party, Robert could and surely would forbid that Ned and Tywin's men come to blows giving their bad blood Robert could send Loras just as he could do it himself or he could ignore it, this "plan" makes zero sense because it's based in so many ifs that it seems a lotterry ticket more than a thoughtful plan, Tywin's plan was goad the Riverlands into breaking the King's peace. We know that Harwin guesses that was Tywin's plan, we never seen Tywin saying that was his plan and certainly the idea that because he ambushed Dondarrion he would've ambushed Ned is ludicrous, Pycelle was there when Ned sent them, the man would've spilled the beans asap thus giving Tywin time to plan a proper ambush, if Dondarrion fell he could always say he knew nothing on the sort and would directly appeal to Robert bypassing Ned. Hmm no, that was a guess more than a plan, his plan was to have an alibi to invade the Riverlands, if that was his plans, there was no need of going incognito, Gregor could have march with Tywin's banners, he did not, because he did not want the crown to have reasons to go against him, do you know what assures that a party goes against Gregor leaded by the Hand?? Gregor raiding with his or the Lannister banners. Tywin straight up invaded the Riverlands the moment he heard about Robert and Ned and you think that the man's plan was kidnapping Ned, yeah. Sending your man incognito so you can alledge yours and Stannis favourite excuse, plausible deniability, instead of straight up invading your enemies as you do the moment your grandson is King and you have no enemies in KL is him fearing consequences as any other mortal man. Yeah, he betrayed an already falling King, what a accomplishment, I didn't see him do much but take an inmense amount of shit from Aerys for 12 years. He would never have dared act against Aerys had the mad fool not been all but done already, the same way he would not acted against Robert for the same reason, the man is a snake and certainly arrogant to an insanely degree but he's not suicidal. Tywin controlling his emotions is not the same as Tywin not having fear and we don't even see him during the battle of the fords or when he heard abour Robb marching west... Nor we can deduce that him holding his emotions means he is not afraid on the entire realm, which is suicidal btw Tywin should be a psycho so he was not afraid, ignoring the fact that we don't know what his reactions were him not showing fear can be due a lot of reasons, front psychopathy from him not cracking in from of his bannermen because that would mean a general disbandment, Tywin not facing the whole Realm is a sign that Tywin can face the whole Realm,, maybe you don't remember it because if all the Tywin died a myth etc, but the only thing keeping the crown after the Blackwater was the Reach army and Tywin was very aware of that, The Tywin is not afraidergo he that means something badass is ludicrous.
  5. frenin

    Top 10 Fighters, 281 AC Edition

    Mounted combat isn't limited to fighting with a lance and jousting, melees also could perfectly be mounted combat, in fact every charge ends by definition in a melee, hell Robert defeated Rhaegar in mounted combat, since when people uses jousting skills to etermine whether someone is better warrior or not when there are real feats to consider?? Robert's warhammer was one handed, he fought with a warhammer and a shield on horseback. Barristan is being coerced by Dany, Barry says Rhaegar wasn't that good and then Dany says Rhaegar is a peerles warrior, Jorah btw is passing himself as a loyalist so... Barry B is dancing between telling Dany what he wants to say and what Dany wants to hear, that and the fact that Jorah is playing the Targ loyalist card, Dany herself can tell that Barry B don't agree with the hype. We don't know whether he fought in Kingswood campaign but no one has ever mentioned him, which is weird enough, he def didn't fight in Duskendale giving that Barry B pulled a miracle by single handely rescuing Aerys. People say Rhaegar was good, no one ever said the man was even among of the best, it's odd enough that Jaime never thinks about him as warrior isn't it?? He said, words don't win battles, he never said or implied that Rhaegar just had bad luck and not, that's not how lances works, what if Robert just moved the lance?? You're badly cross multiplying here. I was just scrolling because i couldn't sleep but this posts seem pretty disingenous to me. He never squired with Dayne, he squired with JonCon, Robert never was an skilled jouster but being a bad jouster doesn't mean being a worst warrior, for reputation only, Dayne and Barry B are better than Robert, i never seen nothing said if the other white cloacks, if we are basing too about Martin's word, only Dayne, Barry B and Jaime were above Robert, no one ever put the dragon stag below all Aerys seven in universe. You're mixing a whole lot to make a point, Stannis is not a great warrior because he is Robert's brother and him being a grest teacher is not the same about him being a great warrior. Only Dayne is sure as hell that could kill Robert but that doesn't he would, Barry B was there as well and he was wounded before ever reaching the man. And non canon works are just that, non canon work. With respect but this doesn't make sense, this is not dragon ball, Whent was talking hypwe, him saying he could kill Robert or make the difference there is like Rickard armoring himself to fight Barry B, they could be just trash talking and that would be just as effective, they could not even say those words and Ned just dreaming it. JonCon himself says he nearly killed him there, Harwin is an unreliable source, he has heard a tale amongst a hundred, you can't kill 6 men by surprise, when you've surprised one, the others will be ready for you. He can't be god, there are others better than him. You're making this to be dragon ball apart from making up points, the rest well... The idea that Robert was the best there makes o sense, Barry B was there but leaving the veast B aside we have no reason to believe there was a better warrior than Robert that day. Ned himself pretty early tells us that Dayne would've killed if not for Reed, we have no reason to believe that wasn't a fair fight in the Trident, no one ever implied it wasn't. Yet you do put him up there becauset he man was a good jouster.
  6. frenin

    R+L=J v.166

    Oh he was contenting himself just by not being in Robert's blacklist, he wanted to be on the winning side and obviously avoid the shunning and retribution that not supporting the winning side gets but nothing implies he wanted more when he made his mind. If Lyanna was Robert's Queen to be iduring the Sack, then he was hoping for nothing more than avoiding the shunning, Cersei was the last of his priorities then, joining the rebels, keeping Jaime from doing something stupid or suffer harm was his priority. Neither the idiot type, Tywin served for Aerys for ten years after all he did to him because it was the best way to keep his neck safe and he was ready to serve him again had Aerys summoned him first or had Rhaegar prevailed in the Trident, Tywin is not the forgiving type but he's certainly a snake, he will crawl if necessary. Lobotomy, Changes of personality... The Targs had already made their mind about Tywin and so did the loyalists and so did Tywin, it was a no return path and it was felt as a no return path. If Tywin sacked KL to be in Robert's good graces, Robert marrying a loyal rebel bride or a loyalist bride to unite the Realm is a great possibility, Tywin rebelling for the rejection implies that he had that in mind the whole time otherwise it wouldn't make sense such reaction. I can, because what Viserys and Dany would've done to the usuper dogs is certainly i given, I'm talking too about that, that's why i'm saying that Tywin would've stuck with Robert no matter what. Only a moron would pardon a proven traitor who only looks for himself when he have several options left. You are thinking everybody is as stupid or weak as Tywin thinks they are, Not wrapping dead princes in your banners and handing them as trophies to a usurper before he even claims the Throne, would be a very nice detail. Viserys would've been forced to acknowledge nothing and byw no one would believe him. Feudal relationships are based in trust, i trust you to have my back, you trust me to have your back, if there is no trust there is no relationships and whatever miracle you think Tywin is able to pull off, there would never be trust. No, it's not a given, because we still don't know what Dornish numbers are , less tha 50k but roughly the same thsn the North or the Vale, regions with the numbers to threaten Tywin. A very unlikely scenario is a very unlikely scenario, i can talk about an scenario where Viserys is surrounded only by Westermen and Emmon Frey and oddly enough they having a lot of influence in Viserys and even weider Viserys forgetting his hatred, fear and rage but that doesn't make it more likely than Aemon awakening a stone dragon and march south to avenge his sweet little brother's grandson. Rhaena fears their not very concealed attempt to have a dragon, because in an era where the Dragons not Targ blood was the only thing keeping the Realm united, giving a very powerful House a dragon meant future civil wars. But the Lannister pay the same taxes and follow the same laws as the rest of the other Great Houses but the Martells and Dorne, they pay the taxes they want to pay and follow their own laws. The Gold and the land are Lannister's but they were given by the crown, the only way for the crown to got it back would be pulling an Unworthy and forcefully (via law) take it from them or attainting them. That'show Whitewalls, Coldmoat, Brightwater, Teats and a lot of keeps, lands are wealth were distributed in history and we see it again post Blackwater, Lannisters and Casterly Rock with its gold are no different, ultimately they are the Throne's. For the hundredth time scenario, a war torn Westeros united have enough manpower to deal with the Westerlands if they give battle and even if you don't believe it, that only buys Tywin a few years before Viserys march against them and Viserys would sure as hell demand hostages to ensure their future loyalty, hostages that woud be used against them once Viserys decides go after the Lion. No it didn't, not of this magnitude. No, they're dead, Grey Eyes with the frozen heart Eddard Stark and the rest of the gang are good as dead, which is why they'd fight to the bitter end. He certainly believes his father did nothing wrong and he is going to emulate him, for the best and worse, Viserys is insanely cruel, I don't buy for a second Barry B's idea that he always was, to Dany because Dany is the only one under him. This is ofc what you want to believe, it's fine, They don't love him, they fear him and respect him but to face a death sentence you need to love someone, Jon Arryn and his golden boys, would they stand with him when they face a certain death?? Would no one crack when Casterly Rock and pardons were offered?? Even if you think they wouldn't, they can't defeat the rest of the Realm, even after a civil war. It's the same thing, Do you really believe Uncles Bran and Ed would make peace with Cat and Robb's butchers, do you honestly believe that?? Past wrongs are only forgiven if there are reckoning involved, if you can't fight permantly the one who wrong you or you're Baelon the Blessed. But it's like i say that Stannis and Renly could make peace with Cersei and the kids or Rhaenrya and Alicent could make peace. Yeah, Tywin never thought or tried to take on all the 7K because last time i checked, the North and the Riverlands are not all the Kingdoms, Tywin never thought it would come to blows with the North, the Vale, the Reach, the Stormlands and Dragonstone, he thought the Vale would stay out of the war and he had no reason to believe the Stormlands and the Reach would rise against their legit King, he tought the North would be easy to deal with and that's that. We know he wanted to deal with Robert's brothers but we don't know how he wanted to do it, the most likely scenario would be a mutual alliance instead of a direct agression, why would Tywin even want that?? In the earlier aftermath of the Whispering woods there was already a Lord who suggested make peace, we actually don't know whether if he was pressed into that later and especially during the Battle of the Fords, we know that the man went to West leaving KL unwatched, certainly his bannermen and soldiers fearing Robb could raise hell in their lands as they were doing in the Riverlands was a factor. He would've fought obviously, is his and House necks at stake, he's going to fight because is dead either way and better die killing that being a sheep, no one would've come in his aid, only Robert ever viewed in a positive light the Sack and only Robert ever viewed the Sack as necessary, the man is not loved nor liked, the only reason they'd help him is if they are Baratheon's still to rally around and crown King, or Edric Storm but that would mean that this new Baratheon would obviously kill the man who had just backstabbed his father/brother. What Tywin did wile Robert was still breathing and Ned was his Hand was send Gregor Clegane incognito to raid some villages and goad the Riverlords to break the King's Peace thus having a legal alibi to crush them, good ol Hoster saw trough him. Sending your man incognito so you can alledge yours and Stannis favourite excuse, plausible deniability, instead of straight up invading your enemies as you do the moment your grandson is King and you have no enemies in KL is him fearing consequences as any other mortal man. Had he not, he'd have invaded the Riverlands right away but that would've supposed Ned or Robert were calling the banners and he was not having that. he and his family actually relied on Robert's negligence to get away with it not directly face him, whether that would work with a increasignly unruly Robert or not, it's up to everyone's guess, i'm on the camp that kidnap the Hand and the King best pal was Tywin's doom because it directly touched Robert's pride. Well, having in mind that the man never expected the whole Realm to be against him and he never faced the whole realm and he made sure of not facing the whole Realm, i'm sure he thought he couldn't face the whole Realm. Edmure Tully of all people dared the myth that's Lord Tywin, every King of said war dared him, even his own grandson called him coward to his face, and he's very much right, hed died a shit myth, as thr victor of a victory House Tyrell gave him. Tywin is the LP of the Westerlands and as the last man standing, they have to deeal wit him, one way or the other, the man had already betrayed two Kings. You might, if that were the case, which it isn't, or revenge would consume you either way.
  7. frenin

    How could we find out about Aegon

    Robert's need heirs asap, it makes no sense to wait so long, Rhaenys should marry Robert firstborn son or one of his brothers if he doesn't have children, not wait 14 years for the kid to become a woman.
  8. frenin

    Will be Littlefinger get busted by Illyrio?

    @Lord Varys He commands Massey to send him sellswords and to send them to him by Eastwatch, he's using those sellswords to take the Throne. When dragons had come to life 170 years later, i find it unlikely, Daenerys is the Conqueror reborn. Maybe, or maybe not, she is also a full Targ whose birth is indubitable, Aegon didn't need Westerosi teachers to win Westeros,, neither will Dany. He does need her, to maintain the Throne and to eliminate any doubt about his lineage, that is if when she comes to Westeros, she's still having riderless dragons and the Aegon and his cronies are sure the boy can approach to them and tame them. But she can become and ally pretty easily, the idea that they just decide to kill her doesn't ring unless Aegon has fallen in love of his bride or had a son. Yet there is no reason to not annull said marriages and Dorne is a problem but Dorne on its own isn't as valuable as Dany. If Dany don't believe him, there is no marry coming soon, he is an usurper. Dragons, a huge army, people doubting him, Baratheon loyalists, i can see a lot of reasons why Dany is useful after Aegon is king. It's actually a pretty big reason, there is some random who is passing as the heir of her beloved Rhaegar, she is not having that. Loraq wasn't saying he is the rightful heir of the Throne was he?? If Dany believes Aegon is fake, she is going after his ass and that is a very good reason for a civil war. Lmao.
  9. frenin

    R+L=J v.166

    And is there a reason to believe he thinks that?? If the road is suicidal, i don't have a reason to believe, that's his reasoning, Tywin did what he did to be in the winning side, period, there is no reason to believe he had anything else in mind and when he sacked KL, Lyanna was still alive, so the royal marriage was at best a wet dream. Tywin can be very pissed all he wants, he is not going to do anything. Exactly, he never did that to make his daughter Queen, Lyanna was Robert's bride wasn't she?? And what options were those?? His legal heir was a dwarf, his House was isolated and everyone, hated him, feared him or despised him, what are his options?? And after that, Viserys would've thanked him with a red smile. There is evidence that Tywin wrapped the bodies in Lannister's cloacks and presented them to Robert, there is evidence that Tywin called his banners and commanded them to brutally sack the city of his King, Tywin betrayed his King, Tywin is falling, no matter how weak and stupids you try to paint the loyalists, Tywin is falling. Only an imbecile would believe Tywin and only an utter moron would pardon. No, but they'd have many influence over Viserys and they aren't stupids nor forgivings, they want Tywin's head, they'd have Tywin's head. And honestly, Doran not having the numbers ti threatenthe westermen remains to be seen. ... Because he's Tywin, you are allowing the hype cloud your judgment. I won't extend myself here because this topic has been answered upthread and since you haven't refuted i have no reason to consider it invalid. The idea that Tywin can defeat the IT is beyond absurd, is just the hype talking. Casterly Rock and its gold were bestowed upon the Lannisters in the wars of conquests, it's no longer the Lannisters, its the thrones, if the Throne sieges Casterky Rock and starts giving away its gold, Tywin is fucked, he might as well start eating and shiting gold because it won't matter, no westerosi lord outside the Westerlands would fight for him, none, no Western Lord is going to face a certain death to save Tywin's ass, they don't love him to die for him. Only the Martells are subjects to the IT in name and only the Martells, Greyjoys and Starks ties and loyalty with the crown is more loose, Tywin pays his taxes like everyone else and follows the same laws and the same Gods. Why?? I'm curious, Why Tywin proving he's a man you absolutely can't trust is earning him any mercy?? Tywin has just proven he's only loyal to him, he's a viper and everyone who takes a viper to his breats deserves the bites he gets. Why would Viserys have to give him anything?? A man with half a brain would know that Tywin is a goner, you need loyal men who would die for you, not men that would backstab you in a heartbeat, Casterly Rock is going to any loyal man of Viserys, not to a two times traitor whose only bargaining chip is that you believe his own hype. It's Tywin some snake charmer?? You think?? The chances that Robert, Ned or Jon Arryn survive a Targ restoration are incredibly low, and those men are beloved an respected. Viserys wishes to be King and getting even, he's going to let his rage, fear and hatred roam free once he gets the Throne. Could be, but we're not talking about going on a killing spree on the rebels, only on Tywin and House Lannister, he can perfectly destroy them and pardon the others, there is no contradiction there. ... I won't even look for the Dance's quotes to show that after the first blood was dropped, there wasn't any reconciliation nor the Red Wedding, you're arguing your strawman, we're not discussing whether two political foes can later be on the same side, you know it, there was no going back for Otto, Rhaenrya, Daemon, Alicent and Aegon after the Dance, no matter how much time may pass, there is no going back from the Red Wedding and there isn't either for the Sack. You're purposefully mistaking, political enemity with the personal one, Tywin had a hand in Viserys father fall, he butchered his nephews and sacked his city, Viserys grew up with those memories stuck in his head, he's not going to forgive him because he's Tywin, he doesn't have to, he's advisors would actually tell him to get rid of him asap and he actually wants to. I'll say it again, it's bordeline dellusional, so i'll go with my examples, the North forgives and forgets the Freys and the Boltons when they are at their mecy and Robert forgives Cersei and reassured Joff as his heir for a promise of a good fuck and good behaviour in the future, if you can't think those two situations happening, Viserys just pardoning Tywin is not happening either. Yeah and Robb was kicking his ass and only the Tyrells won him the day when Tyrion and LF made them join his cause, Tywin would've been smashed by Renly, there is no doubt on that and chances are not that low that Robb could defeat him too, he at the end of the day was falling in all of his baits. Tywin only fights against two Kingdoms, after blitzkrieing one before they knew what was attacking them, and the man didn't attack the Riverlands right away did he?? He sent Gregor icognito to not face the crown's fury. Tywin was soundly defeated by fucking Edmure Tully and the Lord miraculously appeared to him then, he didn't expect the North, the Reach and the Stormlands rebelling and after that, what can he do but fight for his life?? Nothing the man did during the Woft5k strikes to me as impressive, he constantly lets his arrogance blind him, he's constantly outmaneuvered by a 15 year old and is actually Tyrion the one who carries the Lannister victory, You said it yourself, pretenders not Robert I, nor Aerys II not Jaeharys, not any Aegon, none of the other Western lord had any reason to think at the beginning that the North, the Reach and the Stormlands would side against them and after Jaime is defeated there is already one Lord who thinks the war is done, what would happen when Robb relentlessky bleeds him and Renly's 100k swords appears?? What happens when a real King goes after him with all the might of the 7 Kingdoms just as Robert went after Balon instead of facing one of two Kingdoms and then the mightiest one joins his side?? If Tywin decides to hide in the Rock instead of presenting batle, how many of his bannermen would face a certain defeat and destruction for his coward, absentee Lord?? Why would they?? If Tywin leaves the Rock, he's doomed, if he hides under it, his own bannermen would soon abandom him, either that or they are crushed anyway. Yeah, Balon not only had a personal vendetta against the North, he knew he could not take Casterly Rock and hold it, the power of Lord Tywin is hype, the hypes makes his work in his foes and the readers and make him far bigger that he really is... until someone dares to face the myth, then you only see a fallible human, like the rest. Why?? Tywin is an usurper dog, he betrayed his father and his son killed him, the idea that Viserys just shrugged that off and ignores the Dornish and why lying, the Reach demands is ludicrous to me, why would left Tywin in charge of the Westerlands?? They had to deal with Tywin either way, they can't trust him, the man has to go, it's a very simple reasoning, leaving Tywin in charge at the Westerlands is stupid, Viserys may be stupid but he's not forgiving and his advisors sure as hell aren't idiots. After he takes the Throne?? I doubt it, but if he fears him, the more reason to get rid of him, don't you think??
  10. frenin

    R+L=J v.166

    @Lord Varys I know your point, this is getting like this cuz i'm batman memes, Tywin can pull off the impossible because he's Tywin, plain and simple, the fact that Tywin burned every bridge between him and the Targs and Dany and Viserys already confirming that no mercy for the usurper and his dogs, Tywin literally saying that he had forever forsaken the vows he had with the Targ don't matter because he's Tywin. Viserys is getting even for the Sacks and more importantly the Martells are getting even for the Sack, there is no in which Doran suddenly forgives the Lannisters or don't force Viserys to reckoning and why would Viserys refuse?? He can't trust Tywin, why would he let him go?? And i know that doesn't matter to you, but it sure as hell matters to Tywin, because Tywin would've to be an uter moron if he thinks he can get a way with his fortune, prestige, honor and skin untouch. Yeah, other people are just pointing that Tywin didn't have more options left. I never said that the Lannisters were suddenly die- hard Baratheon loyalists, i'm saying that the Sack and the murder of Aerys, completely isolated them from the two factions and made sure that Tywin, Jaime and House Lannister won't receive neither mercy, nor help. Tywin could stay neutral, or backstab Robert, he could Sack KL again, or he could just pulled an Ashara and throw himself from the highest Tower in Casterly Rock and see if he can survive, because that's the equilavent of what you're saying, a two times traitor is not a loyalist, is a two times traitor, only an imbecile would trust someone who has betrayed two of his Kings, for no other reason than for saving his neck and as i said before, neither Viserys nor Doran, are the forgiving the type. No, they did it when Tywin presented Robert, Rhaenys and Aegon's corpses, honestly thinking there is a going back after thatis like thinking there is a going back after the Red Wedding and more appropiate, is like thinking that after discovering he had been horned for 15 years, Robert forgives, Cersei and reaffirm Joff and the kids as his heirs because Cersei is so hot and has promised him she won't do it again and would let him fuck her anytime he wants, it's titally dellusional, to the point that you're not even bothering to find any logic reason for your affirmations, only that Tywin can do it because he's Tywin. Ofc, because nothing inspires more confidence than a two times traitor, who killed your family and sacked your city, saying he's loyal to you and ofc Viserys would've no one around him pointing him the obvious, you can't trust Tywin, Tywin need to go.
  11. frenin

    Will be Littlefinger get busted by Illyrio?

    @Lord Varys Oh, he'll be King, but his position will be far from secure for a time, Stannis doesn't strike me as suicidal, the man knows that he can't take the Throne only with the Northmen, he may very well be suicidal, that's why i said that if he plays well his cards and waits for reinforcements, and IF he's not already dead, he's not going down easily. Take the Throne and maintain the Throne are two very differents things, the latter tends to be far more difficult than the first and dragons gives Dany and Aegon a legitimacy, he can't achieve by himself even if everyone thinks of him as Rhaegar's heir. The only thing that changes is the power balance, with Aegon in the IT and coming "home" they are equals, in the other way, Aegon would always be the beggar, Dany is coming to Westeros, whether they want it or not, no one doubts of her lineage and she has awaken the dragons, turning Dany into an enemy, is unnecesary and folly. I don't see Loraq surviving whatever is happeing in Meeren but even if so, marriages can be set aside and setting aside or annuling whatever marriage they might have, for the dragon queen is the best option, if the first reaction they have with Dany is that she's a threat instead of a bless, they're idiots. Her first reaction would be skepticism, i think, to good to be true, and who knows, she might want the Throne all by herself and the idea of sharing the cheers is not good enough for her. That depends of whether Tyrion is able to gain the girl's trust enough to put some sense, and venon, in her, as delighted as she might be with the idea, a bizarre the Prince and the Pauper is enough for anyone to have second thoughts. And if Dany believes Young G is not Rhaegar's son, she is killing him, i don't think Dany joining forces with some whore's son, trying to replace the position of Dany's hero, if Dany has a sheer suspicion Young G is not Rhaegar's, that won't sit well and is a very good causus belli to start a brutal civil about.
  12. frenin

    Golden Company Exiles

    We've not seen that, we've seen she commits mistakes, we also see she made good calls and is ready to compromise.
  13. frenin

    Will be Littlefinger get busted by Illyrio?

    @Lord Varys I'm more less on the same page than you here, except for two things, i don't think Aegon is going to become swiftly, an assured King i mean, if Stannis wins the North, all he had to do is wait for Massey, with the power of the Iron Bank, Stannis is a legit threat to anyone, the one i see falling easy against Young G is Euron, if Stannis plays his cards well, he won't fall easily, because he is def falling, by the time he falls. I don't think they are going to throw Dany to the garbage, Dany is a powerful card, and even after Stannis is defeated, they need ti make sure the boy and his House aren't getting Robert-ed again and Dany and her dragons is what they need. Marriages can be set aside or annulled, or the hubbie can always die, i think Dany will actually throw the first stone, she is no buying the whole Aegon thing and after raining fire all over Essos, she is coming for Westeros and by the time that happens, Aegon is already married and with issue and with that their chance of peace, i don't think no one is going to think of her as expendable.
  14. frenin

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    Cersei's saying that she's about to kill Freys to "avenge " the Red Wedding, if those deaths aren't satisfaying. you think she/anyone would have trouble destroying House Frey?? Anyway, you're right, i was mistaken. Is there a quote in the entire series that claims Lyanna did willingly give herself to Rhaegar?? Because, I've never seen no one contesting the abducting part, just saying that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, so that seems to be the free pass everone grants him, love. Barri B is looking for a King, he thinks that Rhaegar was his perfect King besides the war he thinks he caused, Jaime liked him much and despised Robert, Cersei is in love with him, which means that she is going to ignore or blame on others his shortcomings, in fact that's what almost everyone does to absolve Rhaegar, blame Elia. We never see that Bran thinks rape implies what you are saying, Ned or others may just be telling the kids the widespread story, that Rhaegar indeed rape Lyanna, Bran isperfectly capable of either understanding the meaning of rape, or just repeating a story a rape he had already heard. The same goes for Dany, she's the one who actually think this. Dany can be perfectly saying, Daario has rape eyes and that kinda turns her on. In the case of Lysa, did someone ever say LF had raped her?? We know that Hoster was angry, but the man never accused him of that, not that concept of rape was ever brought up whenever Petyr were boasting about how he fucked the Tully girls, iirc he even did it in front of Ned didn't he?? In the Saera's incident the word rape, never appears, in fact, when Jaehaerys is face Beesbury, this is what he says. But never rape, not anyone said those girls were raped. When Robert says Lyanna was raped, he is talking about our sense of rape not that they banged without late Rickard and Ned's bless, so is Cersei when she asks Ned if Jon's mother was some peasant he raped while her holdfast burned, and so are the Martells, There is enough differences between Martin's universe and the middle ages, to actually say that rape in Westeros is the exact same as it was in the middle ages, unless there is a specify quote of Martin agreeing with the rape thing, call Robb a rapist makes no sense. PD: Where Kevan looked at Rhaegar admiringly??
  15. frenin

    R+L=J v.166

    @Lord Varys Then that mean that Tywin Lannister and his House has a few more years, because Viserys would have resources to defeat the Westerlands in a open field. Th only thing Viserys needs to do, is making sure that every western House, either is destroyed or has sent a hostage to ensure their loyalty when he decides march against Casterly Rock. New regime, new loyalties and as i said before, Viserys would be sending them against Tywin, not again Eddard. Whereas Viserys commanding them to attack the remnants of their beloved Lords would almost definitely met resistance, Tywin is a different matter. That's not my point, gold can be moved... How if there is a blockade and Tywin is meant to die in his Rock, what sellsword company could defeat a Kingdom manpower?? The only thing necessary to blockade Casterly Rock, assuming you have succesfully defeated the Westerlands, is a powerful fleet and to blockade the Harbor and manpower enough to block all the gates, that doesn't need all Westeros to be done, the scenario where two or more Kingdoms are involved is if Tywin and the westermen actually give battle. The West can field at best 50k men and that is supposed to leave the West completely feeble, the manpower of the rest of the Kingdoms, even after a war, can overcome that and I can see the Starks/Boltons and Tullys/Freys, having at least 8 thousands men after that, with more levies from, Dorne, they would send men and women if necessary, the Reach and the Crownlands and i don't see it as a huge problem and that's if Tywin bannermen don't abandon him for the winning side and Viserys is unable of convincing the Iron Islands, which i think he very much could. Who is to lead this powerful region in war?? If KL has fallen, Cersei and Jaime are long dead, if Jaime miraculously isn't why would those bannermen be open traitors for Tywin?? Unlike him, they can't hide under a Rock, Casterly Rock is also a double edged sword, Viserys as King can grant it with its gold to whoever he wants, how many of Tywin bannermen would remain loyal once Viserys starts selling Casterly Rock and its gold?? Riverrun, Brightwater aren't the Tullys and Florents anymore, They'd also have a royal Fleet. No he can't, Tywin is the Robb on this story, he has little more than gold to bargain and that gold wouldn't serve him if he's to die in his own castle. Casterly Rock and its incomes can be taken for the Crown, just like Whitewalls was, and be given to another House, just like Coldmoat was, Viserys can offer the IB half the gold inside Casterly Rock and a free pass to ravage Lannisport, the IB wouldn't think twice, especially because they risk a pointless against the Crown that wouldn't bring them nothing if they are dead and if the join Viserys they have gold and plunder assured with minimal cassualties, it's not a hard choice. He can't, this is what the Three Daughters were offered Tywin isn't the Hand, nor he has royal powers and neither, even is a shadow baby appeared to kill Viserys in his tent, has any hope of claiming the Throne and whereas Tywin might be secure enough, the same can't be said about Lannisport, a city destroyed isn't a good incentive, so there is absolute no reason to believe he could ever convince the three daughters. Not to mention that just as Otto did, Viserys can broke the same deal with the three daughters ecause he actually can reach their demands. But after the Sack, half Westeros thought him a snake. Yes Viserys could break a deal with Drogo because he had the connections, Illyrio, and a bride he could introduce to him, with Cersei trapped in the Rock and with Tywin having absolutely no connections in Essos and more specifically the Dothraki we can know of, i find it very unlikely. Viserys is not a guy that strikes me as conciliator, half the Realm would side agaisnt him?? He has already defeated them and he's sending them to fight someone isn't loved. And while Robert forgave his foes, he made sure of breaking the power of the Darrys and Conningtons and married his brother to a Florent in case the Tyrells had any funny idea, forgive and forget with Tywin is not only a good idea, it's a very stupid one. And he can go piecemeal, instead of going on a killing spree. Different cases, peace can come, but either if enough time has passed or if those involved are already dead. The Starks and Arryns never made peace, the Starks lost interest in the sisters and the Arryns claimed them as theirs, we don't really know if there was any contact between them after that until the conquest, the Great Houses of Westeros couldn't do nothing more than accept Aegon and his dragons, the truth is that the moment The Dragon died, this is what many people thought. This, after the First Dornish war ended. Robb himself reasons to not bend the knee, was Ned's head, Balon was so humiliated that he later on started a mad campaign in the North, Lady Lannister and how she dealt with the IB after the Red Kraken died, JonCon and Robert, needless is to talk about the scars the Red Wedding has left and the Sack of KL has left, either enough time has passed so the flames of vengeance had died out, or there are other people involved who see things with perspective (see, Young Griff and Tyrion and how the kid doesn't seem eager of avenging his entire family) or there must be some reckoning involved. If it's personal, i can't see other way, that's is the reasonwhy peace treaties often meant double weddings between the two parties. And no, Tywin and his House would've been utterly destroyed by Viserys. Robert needed to marry a maid of high enough birth for him, in this case that meant another noble of a Great House, and Cersei happened to be the only one available. I've never said they got along well, but we do know that Cersei didn't like the idea of Ned as Hand and Robert did it anyways and Cersei was outraged with Robert because he didn't punish Ned after the whole Jaim-Tyrion fiasco, yet Robert ended uo giving the badge to Ned again, with Cersei having no say on the matter. The idea of Cersei being able to destroy Robert and Jon bond does seem ludicrous to me, but the idea of Jon Arryn being worried about either he could be Hand or couldn't is the most ludicrous to me, this is an idea you're pushing as a fact. We have no reasons to believe Jon Arryn cared that much about being Hand or not, not that he ever feared Cersei's influence over Robert on regards of his position, not even Robert would ever grant the office to Jaime, where this comes from?? Robert shows that he follows his own advices on regards of that office and Cersei never had or could have any say on the matter. Nor do i ever said that Jon Arryn didn't think that was the best for Robert, i argue that just one of Jon's bad calls, he didn't need the Lannisters, the Lannister needed him, he should've married Robert with a Hightower, to break the power of the Reach had the Targs ever came back and keep Jaime Lannister closely watched, he didn't do it.