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frenin

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  1. frenin

    Is Stannis guilty of killing Renly?

    That's was what Stannis tells himself, not the truth. When people bring this up I always wonder if they think that Robert was, old af to father more children, unable to remarry, unable to legit any of his infinite number of bastards. Robert was fertile , very fertile. Stannis is just rationalizing his treason. He very much did since he prepares himself for it. He steals Robert's fleet and he starts hiring sellswords for the eventual shitstorm that would happen once Robert is dead. And ofc that Stannis would've saved him, Robert gets to be killed and never gets to properly rule his succession because he dies thinking Joffrey his son. And both Jon and Ned would've appreciated Stannis's help. Ned himself summons Stannis and wants him to tell him what is going on... But Stannis just waits. Why would he had been ridiculed?? He had the means to talk to both his brothers privately, he never did. He had the means to announce the truth publicly, he never did. Robert disliked his family, had he ever had a reason to dump them and replace them he would not have hesitated. Sure that Stannis would never accept Renly's quest to the Throne, but Renly could win, Stannis would never, nor would he be ever loved enough to inspire loyalty. Why would he?? Stannis was as usurper as him in his eyes. Why would he bent the knee to his brother?? And what happen with the Tyrells?? Robb had already accepted the crown and was not eager to lose it either. Stannis never should bend, it's always the other who must. He didn't burn Edric for the same reason he did not kill Cersei, he couldn't. Who divided the Realm?? Stannis did, he let Robert die, he waited until Robb and Renly were crowned and he killed his own brother, thus granting that the Tyrells went over Tywin, Stannis sacrificed everything on his mad quest and still failed spectacularly. The Lannisters and the Targs have A LOT to thank to Stannis. Them defeating and ousting, if not outright destroying, the Baratheons would've been impossible without Stannis's astonishing inside job. Stannis destroyed House Baratheon, not Renly, not Robert. Olenna never supported Renly in the first place. He is not mocked by any of his previous supporters. Only by those that were already predisposed against him. Didn't know that strategy was the same as play at war. Saying that Renly destroyed his family is stupid. Stannis killed Renly to fail at the end, is that Renly's fault too?? That he put useless Imry Florent at charge of his fleet?? That he radicalized the Reach lords with his actions?? Stannis wanted it all, more likely than not because Robert had it all, sohe could not be less. He ended losing it all. That's on him, he was defeated, not Renly not Robert. Storm's End is being lost under him, not Renly not Robert.
  2. frenin

    R+L=J v.166

    And how he could tell him if he himself has a distorted vision of what the Watch is?? It's not like Jon's uncle did not try to warn him and was ignored or Jon did not consciously make the decision of staying over retutning back to Cat's.
  3. You keep conflating things, yes Tywin was done with Aerys, that does not mean he stopped wanting to see Cersei as queen, he simply could not be around Aerys for the time being. If so, leaving Cersei at court and at Aerys's grasp while he was not in King's Landing simply would not be sound. So every other thing that Aerys did or said had no bearing whatsoever in his decision... No it something that can't. Since there are other reasons for him to want Cersei out of KL if he's not there, you're arguing that there is only one reason for Tywin's actions. Since we are never told or hinted that Tywin ever gave up his goal of marrying Cersei to royalty, i don't think he did. Before the Battle of the Bells Robert did not have the Tullys with him, which might be a reason for Tywin to start having second thoughts about it. It seems that after the Bells, Tywin just as Aerys started to take the robellion seriously. Because it was a factor, Tywin simply wanted to be on the winning side, he did not care who. No, you kinda don't. The relationship may be broken but hatred is too much of a strong word for it. It seems so, It does not mean that you hate him, it means that you're angry at him. I think there was a mix of it. Don't know, the way Cersei talks, she was less fixed in Jaime when the Rhaegar dream was alive than after it. You're reading too much into my words, i did not say that Tywin was hunting his father's mistresees or anything of the sort. I know what Tywin punished, Tywin did not punish a behaviour that had started a month before his father's passing however.
  4. frenin

    R+L=J v.166

    Never saw it that way, Ned simply had a very different notion of what the watch meant. Nor was Jon forced to stay. He did not want to be anywhere near Cat, so Winterfell was not an option and King's Landing is a viper nest so it didn't seem a fine choice either. I think that the wall was the best thing for him. The most likely option is that he is a bastard regardless so he was going to grow as a belithed Prince bastard besides the huge target in his back. I could see angsty 14 years old Jon reacting like that, ADWD was far more mature than that however.
  5. frenin

    Are the Sparrows a religious or popular movement?

    I mean, the Faith has been re armed, there only two ways, Aegon's 1 way or Maegor's way. And Young G simply does not have the strenght nor later would he have the authority to go against the Faith.
  6. frenin

    Is Stannis guilty of killing Renly?

    This again?? Why are you bringing your Stark hate/love to every thread. It's interesting to discuss with you, even when you corner yourself, but why don't start a brand new thread about the Starks instead of hijacking every post other one.
  7. Because he was fed up with Aerys, not because he abandoned any plan he had for Cersei. I know, so... Didn't Tywin resign after years of constant humiliations?? That's something we don't know. That's something you want to assume. Nor it changes mine. Anyway, even if Tywin joins him, Tywin has no way to know if he's going to be defeated in battle or if more Houses are going to join Robert along the way, or if loyalist may change cloaks, since Tywin did not have any certainties he stayed put and ofc his hatred towards Tywin helped. But at that moment he did not know where the tide would go. ??? You don't need to hate someone to insult them a year or 20 years after. Nor Cersei's words come off as hatred, it comes as spiteful and agry. But she has never implied killing her because of that. Exactly, Cersei being already bethrothed or married could lower a lot of her obsession with Jaime. And how Aerys telling Tywin that a master does not marry his heir to his servant in front of the entire Realm is from his POV?? How there was no time passing?? Years passed between Tytos got her as mistress and his death. Years passed since he felt humiliated and him exacting his punishment.
  8. frenin

    What's your favorite speech?

    I certainly dislike most of the nobles. Then he should've demand a trial by combat and killed himself against Longinch, him dragging his folk into his ow idiocy is absurd and despicable. Ofc I can blame him, he lost the dam, he knew the Webbers were at good graces with the Rowans and Targs, he attacked the dam regardless, he refused to deliver the piece of shit of a knight who caused the mess (served him right because said knight later robbed him) and then he was ready to drag his people into another lost cause that was treason regardless. A piece of shit. And not a likable one.
  9. frenin

    What's your favorite speech?

    Well, everything he does and says is deplorable. The man is a sexist, racist and entitled asshole, not only he destroyed his family but he is unable to accept that he was taken the dam and fully knowing that he was invading a territory that wasn't his and, this is the mos infuriating part, he could ever beat Rohanne Webber, the man went and planned to throw his folk lives away for no better reason than pride. But as i said. Mya's speech is the best for me. Damn Bobby B, you only had one job.
  10. frenin

    What's your favorite speech?

    I have two fav speeches. Treason. He is a piece of shit but what a speech. My sons died fighting for the King, The rightful king, Daemon Blackfyre. The King Who Bore the Sword.”“The men of the red dragon call themselves the loyalists, but we who chose the black were just as loyal, once. Though now…all the men who marched beside me to seat Prince Daemon on the Iron Throne have melted away like morning dew. Mayhaps I dreamed them. Or more like, Lord Bloodraven and his Raven’s Teeth have put the fear in them. They cannot all be dead.” [...] “ Treason …is only a word. When two princes fight for a chair where only one may sit, great lords and common men alike must choose. And when the battle’s done, the victors will be hailed as loyal men and true, whilst those who were defeated will be known forevermore as rebels and traitors. That was my fate.” [...] “If Daemon had ridden over Gwayne Corbray…if Fireball had not been slain on the eve of battle…if Hightower and Tarbeck and Oakheart and Butter well had lent us their full strength instead of trying to keep one foot in each camp…if Manfred Lothston had proved true instead of treacherous…if storms had not delayed Lord Bracken’s sailing with the Myrish crossbowmen…if Quickfinger had not been caught with the stolen dragon’s eggs…so many if s, ser…had any one come out differently, it could all have turned t’other way. Then we would be called the loyalists, and the red dragons would be remembered as men who fought to keep the usurper Daeron the Falseborn upon his stolen throne, and failed.” [...] “Aye, we were pardoned. So long as we bent the knee and gave him a hostage to ensure our future loyalty, Daeron forgave the traitors and the rebels.” His voice was bitter. “I bought my head back with my daughter’s life. Alysanne was seven when they took her off to King’s Landing and twenty when she died, a silent sister. I went to King’s Landing once to see her, and she would not even speak to me, her own father. A king’s mercy is a poisoned gift. Daeron Targaryen left me life, but took my pride and dreams and honor.” upon his lap, but the old man took no notice of it. “I should have gone with Bittersteel into exile, or died beside my sons and my sweet king. That would have been a death worthy of a chequy lion descended from so many proud lords and mighty warriors. Daeron’s mercy made me smaller.” In his heart the black dragon never died, Dunk realized. But my favourite will always be Mya's. Mya shook her head. "I remember a man throwing me in the air when I was very little. He stands as tall as the sky, and he throws me up so high it feels as though I'm flying. We're both laughing, laughing so much that I can hardly catch a breath, and finally I laugh so hard I wet myself, but that only makes him laugh the louder. I was never afraid when he was throwing me. I knew that he would always be there to catch me." She pushed her hair back. "Then one day he wasn't. Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you. A mountain is not a man, though, and a stone is a mountain's daughter. I trust my father, and I trust my mules. I won't fall." She put her hand on a jagged spur of rock, and got to her feet. "Best finish. We have a long way yet to go, and I can smell a storm." An honorary one would Tyrion's one during the Blackwater. 10 out of 10 Tyrion.
  11. frenin

    Rhea Royce and Succession

    Because you say so... A dauphiné is not a principality, The title Prince of Dragonstone is the equivalent to the title of Prince of Wales, after Edward I conquered it, the title of Prince of Asturias in Spain or the title of Dauphin de France, it's a sign to acknowledge the heir apparent. You're right that Jaeharys transformed Dragonstone to a lordship for Rhaena for a while but that idea died with her. The Princes of Dragonstone, be it Maegor or Aemon and the long co weren't lords nor it was Dragonstone considered a lordship then. The Iron Throne is pretty much Targ and at that time the simbology was clearly Targ and the Targ name was the symbol of royal power. There is no slightest indication because none of them ever lived enough to worry about it. That royalty follows different shenanigans?? That can be pretty much seen when none of the Queens ever got to adopt the King's name. Then the in your opinion the name Arryn does not suffer any setback whatsoever?? Sure, might it be because they actually got what they might wanted?? Sure, Harry the heir is the biggest exaple we have, that and the fact that we still call them Lannisters of Casterly Rock. Their names is what set one family apart from another, in an inbreeding society like Westeros in which everyone is everyone's cousin, names are important. Don't know why, since they never got near around Highgarden in the first place, you know, get the seat first worry about the rest later. Qhorin Volmark spent an entire year warring the rest of the pretenders, he did not rule over anything, he is not even counted as King. Sure Lydden got to change his name by the same people who made him King, they did not decide to start a new House, House Lydden of Casterly Rock, but people for some ethereal reason decide that such an ancient name should not disappear if could be avoided. Nor there is any whim in the decision, avoiding a name from going extinct is not a whim. Btw, Lydden did change his name. Makes complete sense that the Lannisters are named after their patriarch Lann, Lann took over Casterly Rock, there was no peaceful transition there. I don't know why you say that it's as it should be and as it always was, the Lannisters are not called Lyddens. The Lannisters come all from the female line since who knows when. ?????? Targ matches were Alysanne's thing for a while, we're told that the one marrying Rhea and Daemon, what are the odds that she had nothing to do with the match?? If we go by that flimsy assumption, perhaps no one had anything to do with that match... I love how the absence of evidence only works for you, never against. Why you argue then?? We are all bored by the confinement but if you don't want to read disagreement nor are you willing to not argue in bad faith is as simple as stop replying. If there are dragonriding offsprings of Daemon in the Vale, how no one has claimed the Iron Throne but are about to claim the Eyrie?? So many questions.... Your scenario is ludicrous because it ignores many factors, that's all. When did Daemon become dragonrider again??
  12. frenin

    Rhea Royce and Succession

    What if there are no cousins?? What if all the cousins are girls?? What happens if the ruling lady accesses to the lordship while already married what if... It's not wrong, Prince of dragonstone is not an hereditary title, as it becomes with Robert. It's a Dauphiné. Not that what she did to Vaemond was dispensing justice, more like a para legal execution with the crownlooking the other way. The Throne is Targaryen, so it stands to reason that it continues to be like that, whomever sits in there. Changing gives the same result and only Jace would regardless. No, i believe that all her children would be Royces, Royal families and their shenanigans tend to be different. If Harry goes by Hardyng instead of Arryn, there are still the Gulltowns Arryn. And they could simply... balk at the bethrothal. Not obsessed, people usually care about that stuff. Proud and old famillies tend to give two damns about that. A Royce man?? Don't know, a Royce lord however... because he wants Runestone still going by the Royces of Runestone. Because names are not trivialities. It's not difficult to grasp. Nobody calls themselves Hoares or Gardeners because they married into ruling lords, not the other way around. It seems that you're the one not getting it. Qhorin Volmark never got to reign. Joffrey Lyndden however did change his name, as Harryis about to do. And the Boltons and the Lannisters after they got rid of the Casterlys, don't you understand the difference between peaceful transition and violent change of regime?? There is every reason to assume they would ask, it's their name. And they would be asked, since Alyssane can't just force marriages without the parties consent. I don't ask you to care, i ask you to understand thatone important change leads to more important changes.Your scenarion would simply not happen. Is very much implied every women who was a bit masculine or dominant was. And we got back to the circular argument. Why should Viserys want to give dragons to none dragonriders Houses?? He gives dragons to familes that lready have several dragonriders. The rest is just the same.
  13. frenin

    Targaryen loyalist

    Are you people physically unable of saying something different??
  14. frenin

    Rhea Royce and Succession

    So, they all married commoners?? And people fell for that?? Maege could get away with that shit, she is from a remore island of a remote kingdom, doubt the others would be half as fortunate. I'm not ignoring the textual evidence to the contrary, since the point is that we don't know how it works for ruling ladies and her consorts. Rhaenrya was specifically not a ruling lady, she was a heir apparent and her children could, and moret han likely would, chang their names if they ever got near the Iron Throne. Just as i can claim that any proud house would care about its name going extinct. I know how traditions work, but that tells us nothing about how the arrangement about the names are made. And yes, the match was great for both parties, it would be less great for the Royces if their name were to disappear however. Ofc people would have known how to deal with that, we don't however. And i'm not sure you understand what not a normal circumstance mean, but yes, a ruling lady marrying a highborn is not a normal circumstance. We did not learn much from them, precisely because Rhaenrya did not have children while being Queen, only while she was pincess. And because yes, the children would change their names more likely than not. There is no reason to expect the Royces would accept such deal. So you're arguing that the story would've been the exact same had Jon Arryn not died?? Incredible, that's just stupid. This is literature true, but it has its own laws and logics, and as we constantly see in the books, one factor being altered has massive effects on it. Saying, it's literature is an incredibly simplistic view, We don't expect Aegon 1 to be reborn again riding a direwolf because it's literature not reaility. - Jeyne Arryn was not gay. It would not have changed the tree family of the Arryn, it very well could change the relationship between the Arryns, being them much more close between them, hence no succesion war, or it could mean that the coz would go over Daemon, ie more trouble. Or a bunch of other alternatives i'm too lazy right now to count, I should make absolutisms like you do. Vhagar was claimed without the Crown's approval, there is no guarantee that with Carasex things may go like that. Since we have no reason to believe how Viserys would've acted with Daemon and Rhaena, the Targs and Velaryons were kin and they all already had dragons.
  15. But Tywin has not given up any of his plans withon the court after Aerys took Jaime from him, do you really think that had the Targs prevailed Tywin wouldn't have tried to marry Cersei to the princes?? Tywin was fed up with Aerys, but he already hated him before that, that would not have changed his plans. No, what made him hate Aerys was his comments about his dead wife and son, after Tywin's attempt of renouce came years of constant humilation. What it's not written in the text is that Tywin ever gave up his goal of marrying Cersei to the royalty, Tywin doesbit h ave to stay for Cersei, he can wait a few years until Aerys dies or show some signs of common sense. ??? Ambivalent: having mixed feelings about someone or something; being unable to choose between two (usually opposing) courses of action: How Tywin is not ambivalent when he did not mind joining Aerys early on?? He did not only join him because of their past relationship, he did it because he was not certain whose side would prevail and would only join th winner. Onlt because she wanted to marry Jaime?? The prophecy had nothing to do with it?? When Cersei got Jaie into the KG Rhaegar was already married and Viserys was 8 years old, Jaime would marry long before Cersei got to marry either of them. It would not matter to you, it would to Tywin, that's why he dealt with his father's mistress the way he did and he had plenty of time to cope with the humilation.
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