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Everything posted by frenin

  1. There is no proof of a Anti Targ conspiracy, it was just father and son pissing off the people they shouldn't. People just see hpw it ended and can't believe that it was not something random. Robert is one of the most eligible bachelors in Westeros... How is he not a good match. I have never read Martin or anyone in the books that the Stormlands is poor. We can tellthat it's poorer than Reach, Westerlands, Riverlands and the Vale but that's about it. I mean, how many people would say no to the Lord of Storm's End?? Thing is, neither Rickard nor Jon Arryn seemed particularly interested in the match, Jon Arryn knew that Robert was smitten with Lyanna and he was like a son to him, why in the world would he try to screw him over?? Elbert Arryn and Brandon Stark seemed closed friends anyway, so i think that relayionships between both Houses were locked. You're counting your eggs before having them. Lysa came from a powerful region and Tywin would be getting through that ties anyway through her. Besides where it's hinted that he was interested in said alliance. Nor i can see where the Baratheons are less prestigious than the Lannisters, especially Steffon's blood who were cousins with the Royal House. That's the thing. Rickard was not desperate to sell his children in marriage, Ned and Benjen were never betrothed, you can compare him with Tywin, Hoster (with his daughter not his son), Mace yadda yadda. The only reason Lyanna was even betrothed is because Robert asked. Marrying her to Robert is an excellent match.
  2. Other stories do not make the point that love can be dangerous?? Are you serious?? This has been a trope since Lancelot and Guinivere!!! I'm not talking about the show, I'm talking about the books. The show also had Sansa state that being raped made her tougher? stronger? smarter? I don't even remember what absurd bullshit was. I don't think that's true, Jaeharys and Alyssane comes to mind, Joanna and Tywin were also a loving couple,
  3. The problem with Tyrion and Sansa was not the age, nor was necessarily the problem with Arryn and Lysa even when that was a big factor. There are a lots of couples of similar ages that are terrible too, age only becomes an impossible problem when one or the other can't get past it. I don't think that's a fair assestment, either for Martin or the show. I see that you're cherry picking to make a point. Regardless, Martin was not making any point with Hoster, that's why he dies regretting his decision. Father knows best just as much as he can fuck up and desire is healing fire as much as it is destructive, these are facts of life and these are also tropes that has existed longer than Martin. I could just as easily pick Jaeharys 1 and say that his approach killed his daughters and Martin is arguing the opposite.
  4. Same ol same ol he tells to Davos, we see Stannis's true face early on, the one he shows to his adoptive father, no masks, no lies of duty and we actualy get to see how hard is for Selyse to convince him to kill Renly. That's all it took. No, one could not, good try tho.
  5. I don't think there's any hint regarding Robert knowing it and Cersei is not particularly thrilled with the match. - And what can Cersei do anyway?? He's out of his reach and given that Stannis qould travel mostly by ship he'd be way faster than Robert's entourage that was heading North. - Ned was going to be the future Hand of the King, if anyone should know asap it was him. And it's better than Ned can act in Winterfell, his own turf, than in say King's Landing. - The idea that Stannis feared Cersei is simply made up. No one knows that but Stannis and those who chose to take his word at face value. That's straight up false. You will not find a single quote made by him or anyone near him that says that. You will him however. hs comments about who should have been the Hand. He only flees to Dragonstone once he sees he was not going to be Hand of the King, mind you he knew the former Hand was assasinated yet he stayed right until Robert left to Winterfell. Did Stannis pretend to be Hand by distance?? He needed to be near the King (and his wife) to effectively rule the country, preferably from the capital. Or are you arguing that he found fear once he discovers he is not going to get what he believes he is owed. His actions tell other tale. Again, words and actions differ. There is no one in the books who particularly wants to be King that much and who is willilng to do quite literally whatever it takes to get the Throne. Well, there is Cersei and Varys, so i'm being certainly unfair. Stannis was loyal until he was denied the office of Hand, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. He decided there and then that he would no longer be a sucker. From that point on Stannis effectively abandons Robert (and Renly and Ned) to their fate, they may make it out alive but they are completely unaware of the danger and the danger is becoming more and more impatient and nervous, their hand was not very good. He closes his lips and refuses to share vital information that would've otherwise saved them, he steals the Royal Fleet. he closes his borders, he ignores every summon from the Hand and he starts hiring sellswords at a time in which Westeros was (still) completely at peace. He was waiting for the King to die and he was getting ready for the ensuing conflict when that happened. He was betting on Robert's death without realizing the twincest, that he died without real heirs so he'd be the default succesor and he was preparing himself for the moment it happened. The fact that he made no attempt to warn Renly either also speaks volumes, especially when considering that Renly was too in the Lannisters's shitlist and that Stannis was set to inherit Storm's End had anything happened to him. And it'd later take what... 5 minutes to convince him to murder his own brother?? That he had already tried to get rid of him by proxy explains why he took so much time to be convinced and he would rather killing his own brother rather than negotiating with Robb or Lysa.
  6. In ruling?? Yes, he had been ruling the North for 15 years and not once he came with an idea as absurd as outlawing prostitution. Far more loyalty I'd say. He was with Robert when he died, while Stannis knew that the Lannisters were out for Baratheon blood, he sat atop that info, blocked his island, stole the royal fleet, ignore every summon to the city and started hiring mercs while counting the days for the Lannisters to finish off his brother. Martin says that Robert came to distrust Stannis, no wonder, his actions are outright disloyal and bordeline treasonous. Eddard won the rebellion, Stannis won the battle of Fair Isle and the assault of Old Wyk. So, yes. Trust of the king, far less rigid, just and merciful when it needed and a good hand for govern. Stannis is at odds with the council, whereas Ned is a newcomer that counts with the trust of the king and thus he can make new allies (Renly for example). I don't think there is anything about Stannis during any of the books that proves him a good politician anyway. There is no sound decision that he comes up by himself. He is always advised to do it, either by Davos by Jon and sometimes even, by Melisandre. Perhaps you should hire his advisors. The past is the past and we are not talking about 18 yo Stannis or 8 yo Renly, Tywin also was once fiercely loyal to Aerys, Renly was with Robert when he died. Stannis was in Dragonstone, with a fleet that wasn't his and started hiring mercs months ago there was sign of trouble. Stannis is openly disloyal in AGOT. He never thought that, in fact he would have gladly stayed had he been named Hand and his life wouldn't have been less at risk. He left because he wasn't named Hand and from that moment there on, he is nothing but disloyal.
  7. So, no right then... Delusions are no law. Well, Ned clearly was the better choice so... I'll go with Robert this time and let's not talk about the other's loyalty shall we??
  8. The first thing Stannis does after the battle at the Wall is done is try and make Jon his vassal, he does not think his war is done, he's literally trying to rally the North to his cause. And that should make him reconsider a couple of things, people in power dislike him, just as people without power. He has a bad hand because he has done absolutely nothing to cultivate other's love and or loyalty and at the end only the Narrow Sea lords follow him. He is disliked by schemers, he is dislike by non schemers, he is simply not liked. You act as if it wasn't his actions in the first place. It is his fault he has a bad hand, it is his fault that he doesn't seek allies, it is his fault that he ends as liutenant for the others. What right is that?? For all intents and purposes he does.
  9. She wouldn't have given him her favour otherwise, nor Hightower would have married her to Jorah. He was. Ned and Robert are clearly the new powers in Westeros for obvious reason, he was one of Ned's main bannermen and Robert himself had knighted him. You're too sure, yet Jorah was one of them.
  10. Cressen is the less biased source there is when it comes to the brothers. He says that Robert needed him there. I think he would, the "great change" that people like to talk about comes after Stannis had to reinvent himself. A Stannis with Renly's hand would've been the pinnacle of entitlement. Yet again, the fact that he had such a bad hand and that people didn't like him should've been a wake up call. Stannis in ACOK is the opposite of a good pretender.
  11. I doubt Hightower was thinking it that much. he had yet another daughter to marry off, Jorah was the hero of the hour and his daughter was clearly smitten with him. Npt every marriage in Westeros are done out of politics, especially when you have a lot of children you just want to get rid of them. If you want to think about a "better reason", well, Jorah was clearly connected to the new powers of Westeros and that was something that always comes in handy. Religion was not as important as lack of cash, i doubt she would be half as displeased with the Starks.
  12. Bolton for certain, Starks depends of Lysa and Stannis would have been the soler allying figure for the northeners so, certainly easier. But he did hold it, which is the only impressive feat he actually has, screwing them so hard and still not being killed, let alone depose it. Aren't you cheating at solitaire anyway?? You were talking about lands and castles acquired through the conflict, it is a fact that every other pretender fared far better than Balon. Yet here you are acting as if Balon was Aegon the Conqueror by taking 4 empty castles. Oh do you have the numbers?? Euron was crowned after Tywin died and wouldn't have had that easy tine anyawy, Stannis was stuck in Dragonstone and once in the North, northeners were far more welcoming with him once Tywin died. Well, he was sitting atop Vhagar, odd comparison, i'd say that Tywin did accomplish something. It was his vanguard and his forced march tho, We don't know that. One does not imply the other. She's not lying, she's giving his opinion. Both Cressen and Martin offer a much grounded (and final) opinion. Cersei also says that Storm's End was Stannis, which is certainly wrong. If Robert really intended to slight Stannis, he would have named him Castellan of Dragonstone for Joffrey, instead of granting it to him in perpetuity.
  13. They would have been kicked anyway and i dare say that having one pretender less in the North would have made Stannis's life considerably easier. If you like to believe that, the outcome is the same and has little to do with our argument. I mean it's like saying that Balon was named king by random Ironborn. Yet still mor impressive. It was nearly nonexistent which was indeed his plan, facing a non threat. I mean, you consider Tywin taking Harrenhall easy stuff yet you keep magnifying a "conquest" whose very tenet was facing zero opposition. And Brienne was part of it. All non factors until Tywin actually died. You're just mixing things up. I don't think that Tywin ordered any gang rape of teenagers to the Goat. He did to Tysha thobut he wasn't in war then. Yet actually decimating the Riverlands, winning the Blackwater and winning the war is far more impressive than delusions about enslaving the North and taking four empty castles.
  14. We do know what he did... which wasn't much even after Theon took Winterfell. Man he had to be in a great low to consider that the height of his power, the Greyjoys had fallen hard since Dagon's days. Sure the North's fate would be different... For the better. It really doesn't look like that. Didn't he conquer the Crag and the surroundings and the Westerlings "ditched" Tywin and pledged fealty to Robb. Robb retook it Riverrun first and then he was made king so... They controlled lands without opposition, like Balon. Empty lands, empty castles and all that. How does it matter that he's the only one alive?? The War of the 5 Kings is not over, it just has different pretenders + Stannis and so far, Stannis perfomance is better than Balon's, which is astonishing because he's perfomance is bad. I'd say that Dany has yet to participate in Westeros if not yes, she's the greatest conqueror of the land. I dunno, the girl was already part of his army, she wasn't part of his personal guard. I'd say that marshalling the greatest army Westeros has ever seen > Taking empty castles. Yes, they did. There have been rulers far more succesful than Tywin and far crueler than he was. And the war was over solong he was alive, only Dany had the might to actually threaten Tywin and she was not leaving Essos soon. And i don't knowwhy you badmouth Tywin anyway, you like the idea of Balon literally enslaving the North. Vic is as dumb as his brother and his only redeeming quality is that he loved his brother, Balon way was doomed to fail anyway, he at least got to die before watching yet another humiliating defeat. He only has Stannis to thanks for that.
  15. Well we do know the numbers and they didn't look so good for the rebels, another desertion could have been crutial. Bolton is a snake but i don't buy the idea that he was always looking for the weak link. Robb was simply in such position thatit would have been foolish keep supporting him.
  16. If he was losing badly?? Yep but if Roose wanted to destroy the Starks right away, joining the Targs did the trick.
  17. He never intended to do so. Robb didn't do that. He made clear that Tommen should succeed Joffrey as Robert's heir after Joffrey died (by his hands), Robb didn't believe the children illegimate, Stannis sat on top of that info until ACOK and by then both Robb and Renly had crossed the Rubicon. Had Stannis opened his mouth earlier however and told the world about the twincest however, it's likely that Robb would have thrown his luck with him. Piper was right btw and so were Renly and Cressen. The Lannisters were the common enemy of the most powerful pretenders yet... I mean... Renly died. @Hugorfonics And Balon did?? He took four castles and called it a day and died before losing them. Robb did the same and even signed off his death warrant by adding the Westerlings to his cause via marriage and lost it by death. He also got the Riverlands. The Baratheons controlled vast swaths of lands at one point or the other of the war and Stannis has taken a good deal of the lands and castles Balon took and they had intention to stay. Hell, they were aiming to take the whole pie. Literally no difference and all of them got far more tempting prizes that Balon could ever hope for. Hell, even Euron is having far more success than Balon could ever hope for and he understood that there is nothing to gain in the North and has focused on plundering the Reach... getting far more bigger prizes. He marshalled the greatest army Westeros has ever seen, far more impressive than Balon conquering 4 empty castles. Decimated the Riverlands and then won the war, not that his perfomance during it was always top notch but the results speak for themselves.
  18. If you're talking about lands and castle grabs held for a moon turn, all the pretenders have done far better than Balon and that includes Young Griff. Balon held 4 castles and Sheasore point briefly which is far less than Robb (4some castles in the West + Riverlands briefly), Stannis (Stormlands + Narrow sea briefly), Renly (Reach). That without talking about the winners who got the whole pie briefly. All of them gained considerably more than Balon. Nah, Renly and soon enough Young Griff for me. If i were to choose and since i don't particularly enjoy the cold I'd say, Renly -> Tywin -> Young Griff.
  19. Agreeing I guess they were valuable enough for the Starks to leave them alive and their last rebellion was 1000-700 years before the current events?? That's a very long time. Doubtful, the only moment better than this to backstab the Starks was after the Blackwater. The Targs outnumbered the rebels and the rebels were full of disunion in their own lands, Roose's betrayal might have been crutial.
  20. Yet even then, the Ironborn are force that the North can deal with... Until Winterfell falls. Theon's capture of Winterfell is right there with Renly's death, the Blackwater and Tywin's death as the greatest turning points in the war of the kings.
  21. Unlikely, iirc we're told he did once the Karstarks and the Freys deserted him. Without the Fall of Winterfell however, we're reading a different book with different stakes. With two heirs alive, Sansa's value as Robb's heir decreases markedly and she's unlikely to be married off to anyone soon, Robb doesn't lose the Freys because no grief sex with Jeyne, Rickard Karstark doesn't die by Robb's hand, Jaime remains in Riverrun so no Red Wedding either and while the situation in the North is bad, it is not so untenable that Robb must march back home to clean his house. All in all, thanks Theon.
  22. Nope, Ned was trying to unravel a conspiracy against Robert and against his family and so far he could tell, the twincest was a central and essential part in said plot. The children were already in serious danger, Ned was trying to get them out of Westeros before things reach the no retutn point. He told Cersei to run because it was either that or Rbert killing her them, that's not the game of thrones. That's literally mercy. And this is simply absurd to discuss anyway, we're on Ned's head. The truly moral choice for you Kant. I very much doubt that three children are worth the future civil war that they was guaranteed over Robert's succession. Not that children means avoid your responsibilities. They were entirely based on morality (btw do you know that your morality and Ned's may differ right?) and they certainly not were hypocritical. Your comparison with Jon has already been refuted several times. I would buy your words if we weren't inside his head and he never thinks of Joffrey as Hannibal in the making, nor we see anything that points he's deluding himself. No, he could not as the children would always be a threat to Stannis's claim. You're quick to explain how "this world works" to write off Tywin's actions yet you don't seem to realize that you do not leave people with a claim to throne (however dubious) in your turf. Those kids would never never up to a happy ending until they wrestled their father's throne with their uncle(s). Their options were always victory, death, exile and silent sisters... Well, the boys could always have been castrated. That's stupid. Ned could have been hidden, Cersei's couldn't. Jon was a newborn baby, Cersei's kids weren't. The option that existed for Jon were no longer available for Cersei's kids. Had Jon been 13,8,11 and his existence as Rhaegar's son been widely known and Ned decided to keep him instead of exiling him... Then you should have a tiny point alas, the situations are vastly differents. What reputation?? What power?? What survival?? The marriage wasn't even a known event, Afaik only Tywin and his two sons display any knowledge of the event. The marriage was barely legal, as both were minors at the time, they had no witnesses but a drunk septon who officiated it and only the married couple and two other persons knew about it. Neither of them are well thought strategies devoided of deeper emotions and all of those actions are to spite at someone, likely Tyrion. The marriage was secret and how it could lead to a loss of position inn the Realm exactly?? Would Tywin suddenly stop to be the King's father in law or the most powerful lord in the Realm?? The rest is just wanking. Come on now, Tywin can do and think about more than two things at the same time. It's simply absurd to believe that he told Gregor to bring her but forgot to tell him that he should keep her alive. In fact the very idea that he ordered Elia to be brought to him or Robert already means that she is to be kept alive. If you want to defend hi, just go by his words and say that he didn't mention Elia at all.
  23. For the crime of fighting the losing side. It does seem the correct term. Fighting against the winning side has always meant you need a pardon to return to your formal duties, that's true even for many modern matters. Whether you were fighting for the established system or against it, it's not really relevant.
  24. You're being willingly preposterous. Jon had other options but exile, that's why he is raised as Ned's bastard. Cersei kids had been high proile since birth and them staying in the country would only cause deaths. Why do you think that Jon grows up as bastard instead of growing up as Rhaegar's son? Honestly your argument is nonsense, we're inside Ned's head. Had he wanted to play the game of thrones (at that time) he would have simply waited for Robert or taken Renly's advice. No he didn't know as he himself tells to Robert he's exaggerating about Joffrey. That would have been the utopic choice, there was no way the children would have been safe after their secret was out and there was no way they would forever lost the throne without becoming a danger to the next in line. There was no situation in which the children don't have to watch their back. Fair enough. He didn't have to punish Tyrion, much less Tysha and certainly not the way he did. Gangrape may seem to you as means to an end, just as Elia's fate. That's certainly petty, his position in the Realm has nothing to do with that. I don't really know how that's survival. In what way did those women threaten his House again?? He was simply sending a message... which is petty. Do you really believe that pettiness is not driven by thought??
  25. True but they certainly serve as a comparison. Ned is not trying to sign their death warrant. Hence he tells them to flee before Rpbert comes, Ned is giving them plenty of time to pack and leave. What Ned was not going to allow was for the children to remain as royals, just as he didn't allow Jon to remain as a Targaryen, which is the sensible option, not only because he was not about to let bastards on a Throne he had bled to win but because when, nor if, the secret went out you have a civil war in your hands. I don't really know what's the point of this, But Ned only wrote Stannis about the succesion when Rpbert was dying. And Ned already suspected Stannis knew and if Stannis knows, he's not going to let bastards steal "his inheritance" and so you have war and more than three children dying. Why in the world should Ned give a damn about Tyrion?? Ned did try to protect the children. That's the whole reason why he tells Cersei to run. Jon was protected by being made a bastard, Cersei's children would be protected by exile. None of those are truly pleasant for the kids but it's better than the grave. You're arguing the very opposite, let Cersei get away with consequences be damned. Ned didn't know about Joffrey's... tendencies. Sure, he could have done all that... Had Joffrey truly been Robert's seed. He wasn't so he could not sit in the throne. Why would Ned allow someone he considers has no right to sit on the throne? Stannis already knew and so it was a matter of time the secret got out. Ned was not trying to get the children killed (especially after Robert dies) so your argument doesn't really hold water. Hard to tell. We are not told what Tywin thought about her. "Did wrong". Tyrion could have been punished of several ways, gangrape however sounds very Gregor-ish and it's extremely petty. Just as his treatment to Masha Heddle and his father's mistress... Tywin himself says that he was not thinking about her. I agree that not doing it when he was set out to murder her children was odd yet... Why would he assume that they would bring her in?? And why would he fail to mention that an important bargaining chip should be spared??
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