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Why do you assume the wine was poisoned “so thoroughly”? If it’s due to the color, @Ygrain gave a very good and detailed explanation on the color of the wine above. As to why Cressen fell immediately and it took a few more seconds for Joffrey, you seem to be good at making assumptions, so make one here, won’t be too hard... Cressen’s crystal was bigger, Cressen is older and weaker compared to a younger more stronger Joffrey, and so on and so forth. Besides, we are talking about the difference of a few seconds (don’t know how you are coming up with 25-30 seconds) — Joffrey takes a gulp, eats a slice of pie, takes another gulp and then begins choking. The point I’m making is that you stated that the poisoner couldn’t place the poison in the cup without Sansa seeing. To that I answered, that we know that Tyrion and Sansa where making their retreat. As we do not know how far they were from their seats and the cup, and since we do not have a map of the dais, we cannot know the distance between the cup and the Tyrells or Sansa for that matter. Therefore, your argument/ assumption that the poisoner could not poison the cup without Sansa seeing is not really valid here. As to your argument that no one could predict that Joffrey would douse Tyrion with wine, the poisoner does not really need one specific situation. He/ she could just have needed a distraction/ opportunity to place the poison in the cup, and there was plenty of that. As @Rufus Snow stated, many of us feel that one has to do mental gymnastics for the poisoned pie theory to work. It is much more clearer and straightforward to make the case that the wine was poisoned and the intended target was Joffrey based on the text. And finally, the biggest flaw in the poisoned pie theory, which you still haven’t addressed is why would Olenna want to kill Tyrion in such a public manner when there were many other discrete ways she could do it? And I’m still not sure what your argument is for why Olenna wants to kill Tyrion in the first place.

And what facts are these? I’ve yet to hear any convincing fact that the poison was in the pie. As for Sansa, she was distracted by Ilyn Payne’s sword to pay any attention to the cup. Tyrion was already standing up and he and Sansa were making a “retreat” when they caught Joffrey’s attention again. We do not have a map of the dais or whether Tyrion/Sansa were already away from their seats, or what Garlan’s reach was to the cup. So unless we have actual textual evidence that shows/ states that Garlan or any of of the other Tyrells couldn’t reach the cup, I’ll stick to the more plausible poisoned wine theory than the far fetched pie poisoning one, and all for what? To kill Tyrion, someone who could be killed in many other ways.

You are right, no refilling. “The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep...” The point I was making was that the cup was unattended for a time while everyone’s attention was elsewhere. And the only ones who had access or were in proximity to the cup were Tyrion, Sansa, Garlan, Leonette, and perhaps Margaery. We can rule out Tyrion and Sansa so then it leaves us with only the three Tyrells. That’s why I said unlikely

Yes, in the prologue of ACOK, we are given a detailed description of the strangler — how it looks (small purple crystals), how it is activated (dissolved in wine), how it affects the victim (the victim chokes to death, turns the victim purple, and can give the appearance of an accidental death). Like you mentioned, GRRM has already described in length the properties and effects of this poison and there’s no need for him to reintroduce another bit of information on this poison/ plot to complicate things. At the wedding, Joffrey is drinking plenty of wine from a cup that was left unattended on the table and the strangler we are shown before is activated by being dissolved in wine. A crystal that resembles the strangler is missing from Sansa’s hairnet, which was fiddled with by Olenna. This, IMO, gives us enough information on how Joffrey was poisoned. Will we be told about more conspirators in the plot, like the other Tyrells, or say even Tywin in future books? Perhaps. Will we find out who the actual poisoner was? Perhaps. But somehow I don’t think we are going to get a more detailed description of this plot — we may just get another line or two about it in future books. As GRRM compared Joffrey’s death to Eustace’s, he may want to leave this too open to debate long after the books end. But even if I don’t get any more information on this plot in future books, I’m satisfied with the text we currently have and the conclusion I’ve come to based on it.

I think they did. We can safely assume that the missing crystal in Sansa’s hairnet was the Strangler and Olenna removed it when she fiddled with Sansa’s hair. Olenna is not going to conspire with Dontos who is the only other person we are shown to know about the hairnet. So it had to be LF. She should have had direct dealings with LF. I don’t see any other possibility. Could it have been Tywin that Olenna dealt with? Could be, but then it makes the plot too complicated. But otoh, Tywin would also have wanted a more tractable monarch/ grandson on the throne and may have decided doing away with Joffrey was better for the realm and for him. But then GRRM would have to explain this plot in future books and perhaps it makes things too complicated.

I just reread the chapter and you are right. The wine Margaery drank from was spilled over Tyrion’s head. The cup was then refilled by Tyrion and was never drunk from by Margaery. Joffrey drinks the refilled cup and places the empty cup on the table when he goes to cut the pie. So up until this point, it seems the wine was not poisoned unless somehow there was a more delayed reaction in Joffrey’s case as compared to that of Cressen’s. After Joffrey cuts the pie, he comes back, Tyrion refills the chalice that up until then was sitting unattended (everyone’s attention including Tyrion’s was on the cutting of the pie) on the table. Joffrey drinks quite a bit of the wine, then talks about the pie, eats the pie while still holding on to the cup, talks some more, drinks more wine and begins to choke. So the crystal should have been dropped into the chalice while it was left unattended on the table. Margaery is on Joffrey’s arm most of this time and is close enough to drop the crystal into the empty chalice on the table. If not her, the only other Tyrells who are close enough are Garlan and Leonette. Considering where the chalice was on the dais, I don’t see anyone but Tyrion (not him of course), Margaery, Garlan, Leonette, or the serving man who served the pie, being close enough to drop the poison into it. The other option (which I think unlikely) would be the flagon that Tyrion took from the serving girl had poisoned wine already in it. But then somehow Joffrey had a very delayed reaction to the poison and the serving girl would have had to remove that flagon quickly so no one else could/ would drink from it. But I don’t think this is what happened. I rather think it was one of the three Tyrells I mentioned above that placed the crystal in the chalice while it sat unattended on the table. Yes, I too like Garlan and don’t want to see him involved in this plot but then again the Tyrells are shown to be a close knit and calculating bunch.

Thanks for this link. As GRRM confirmed the poison that killed Joff was one mentioned earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking, and we are given a clear description in ACOK how the Strangler works — Maester Cressen died choking — then that leaves us with only one option, the Strangler. And then we have this from ASOS So, as @mormont and you rightly pointed out, I see no reason to invent a new poison with exactly the same properties as the Strangler in the story. The poison that killed Joff is most certainly the Strangler and we are also shown how this poison is activated in the Prologue of ACOK — it is dissolved in wine. Further, the chapter also states that the poison turns the victim’s face purple and gave the appearance of the victim choking on a morsel of food. IMO, there’s no question it was the wine and as you pointed Margery was probably given a signal as to when not to drink from the chalice or perhaps even, she herself was the one who put the crystal in the wine.

That you are.

No you haven’t. Probably this endless evidence is still in your head. No one but yourself seems to see it on this thread.

What, are you an 8 year old? You’ve been saying “I won” or “this debate is over” over and over again when all you’ve posted is your fanfic, feelings, opinion without a shred of textual evidence. And when posters on this thread almost unanimously agree that you have no textual evidence to back your fanfic, you start behaving like a petulant child. Most people on this Board will discuss and debate a theory if there is merit and if backed by the text and sound reasoning. You have provided none of these things and when people ask you to quote the text from which you are postulating/ framing your theory all you do is say your post is “overflowing with logic, reason, and a vast amount of evidence” and then accuse people of not accepting your theory because they love the Starks. And what’s this about “I win as usual” nonsense? Who have you won against? This is a discussion board for grown ups.

Fair enough as to the first part of your statement but as to the latter part, I have to disagree. We have Jon and Sam’s conversation about the Others and from this it seems to me that they have very little information on them. This leads me to believe that Aemon didn’t know much more that they did or that he didn’t share/ communicate his knowledge with them.

It’s an interesting thought. I am curious to know what BR’s relationship to the Starks were when he was LC. Did he make any visits to WF? But whatever information he had and may have shared with Edwyle Stark, you would think he would have shared it with Maester Aemon. I’ve always wondered why BR didn’t keep in touch with Maester Aemon. Perhaps he did but judging from Maester Aemon’s conversation with Jon and Sam, he doesn’t seem any wiser about the Others than anyone else.

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar was patient enough to go through your OP and respond to each of your claims/ opinions (yes, that’s all they are) and refute them with sound arguments. A lot of us don’t have that sort of patience. To you maybe its “overflowing with logic and reason with vast amounts of evidence” to many others, as evidenced by the responses to your initial post, it’s just a lot of conjecture, fanfic and wishful thinking. No one is disputing that the next books will have a lot of characters dying but if you make a blanket statement like “House Stark’s Inevitable Extinction” and provide absolutely no textual evidence to back up your claim, you can expect others to call you out on it and view your thread as nothing but a Stark bashing/ hate thread.

Perhaps then you should start another thread for this unrelated discussion.

I can’t believe we are discussing ways Arya will die now on this unrelated thread.