teej6

In AGOT she is written as a spoilt selfish girl who cannot see beyond her own happiness and needs... whether it be a caricature/ trope. The fact that she does not even give a second thought to the killing of Mycah reflects really poorly on Sansa. Even after the killing of Lady she does not have the presence of mind to see things for what they are — she continues to blame Arya and continues to justify the actions of her beloved Joffrey although everyone else and their mother sees the little twerp as despicable. The fact that Sansa’s character has a growth trajectory in a positive way in subsequent books does not negate her actions in the first book. The author of course wants the reader to see his characters in a holistic way and ergo you have Jamie’s and Hound’s redemption arcs, but just because readers begin to like certain characters as the story progresses doesn’t mean they have to justify or rationalize these characters earlier acts.

Being naive is not the same as being disloyal. Again, I ask you, which of the Stark kids (discounting Rickon the toddler) apart from Sansa do you see betraying their parent? Sansa went to Cersei purely out of selfish motives and I’d rather rely on the author’s description and intent of the character than the skewed view of a Sansa fan. The Arya comparison is very relevant whether you like it or not. The sisters had similar upbringings but are like night and day. It’s funny how you argue Ned’s fault as a parent but do not want to compare the sisters who had a similar upbringing. Martin gives us information on the interaction between Ned and Arya but nowhere does he even remotely imply that Ned was a derelict or indifferent father to Sansa. That Sansa views Ned not to be strict enough with Arya is her skewed view of what a parent should be. We should applaud Ned for being a kind and compassionate parent. And Ned being lenient to Arya or Sansa being the more obedient daughter does not automatically translate to Ned being strict with Sansa or Arya “allowed more freedom” — this is just fanfic on your part. We have no textual evidence to indicate that Ned was stricter with Sansa or Arya was given more freedom than Sansa. The only thing we can probably (just maybe) assume from the text is that Ned may have had a closer relationship with Arya just as one can assume that Cat had a closer relationship with Sansa. Ned’s only real mistake as a father was in revealing to Cersei that he knew about the incest before seeing to it that his girls were well away from KL. You can call him stupid and naive but not a bad parent. Why, he even gave up what he valued most, his honor, to save Sansa. In the first chapter, we have Ned taking his seven year old son to see a beheading. I doubt Ned wanted his kids to grow up clueless and in a fairytale world. The fact that Sansa did and Arya didn’t tells you more about their innate characters than their upbringing. Jon, Robb, and Arya could recognize Joffrey for the piece of shit he was, except Sansa. I’m sure you’ll assign blame for this also on Ned. As to the bolded, I’ve seen you make this ridiculous argument before. Calling Septa Mordane an alcoholic is hilarious. So Ned relied on the septa to chaperone Sansa and the poor septa couldn’t hold her liquor and that is somehow Ned’s fault. Whether you like it or not, the author meant for Sansa to be the least likable Stark in AGOT. The fact that her character has progressed in subsequent books to one that we root for shows the ability of the author to show character growth. As I said before, that doesn’t mean we waive away the character’s mistakes and blame everyone else except Sansa for her mistakes.

Agree, Ned could have handled it better. He could have kept Sansa out, and bringing her to testify in an open setting was really stupid. He also could have refused Robert’s order just as he refused to sign on to killing Dany and her unborn baby. He didn’t, as you say, so as to move the plot forward.

Yeah you are right. my mistake... it is to make her stay rather than forbidding Ned from leaving. But my point was that Sansa’s intent was to have Cersei talk to Robert who in turn will “command” Ned to agree.

Here’s the quote: Sansa’s intent in going to Cersei was so that Cersei would convince Robert to forbid Ned from leaving KL.

Well he’s the author and creator of the characters so he should know. I don’t think Sansa is responsible for Ned’s death but readers are meant to question her loyalty in AGOT. She is naive and enamored by KL, Cersei and Joffrey so much that she takes her father’s secret to Cersei hoping that Cersei will talk to Robert who in turn will prevent Ned from leaving. Yes, this was the act of a child but in doing so Sansa revealed her father’s plans (plans her father asked her not to reveal to anyone else) to Cersei. Arya maybe disobedient and wild but can you picture a scenario where Arya would reveal Ned secret to someone outside the family. And I don’t think Ned’s parenting has anything to do with Sansa’s actions. This was a purely selfish act on her part, something none of her other siblings would do. If Sansa does not feel somewhat responsible for betraying her father as Martin says, then she would still be clueless and a character in denial. I would rather have a Sansa who takes responsibility for this act than have her and the readers waive it away.

I don’t see any culpability for Ned in Lady’s death. The only thing he did that was stupid was to call Sansa to come and openly testify as to what she witnessed. He had heard what happened from Sansa and probably assumed Sansa would tell the whole truth. But she didn’t. She got selective amnesia at that point, which is understandable for someone in her position. She didn’t want to publicly state that her beloved Joffrey was a liar, so she chose to say she didn’t remember. In this case, GRRM is clearly contrasting Sansa’s weak and naive character to the bold and honest Arya. Arya is honest and loyal to a fault at this point in the books. Lady’s death is a consequence of Sansa claiming ignorance, Cersei’s cruelty, and Robert’s ineptitude. Ned had little to no say in how things transpired after Sansa refused to speak the truth. Had Sansa said that Joffrey attacked Mycah first, and Arya was just defending Mycah and Nymeria was defending Arya, perhaps just perhaps this would have given Robert the cover to dismiss the whole thing and let Lady live.

Yeah I remember that recent quote from Martin. But as you said nothing will convince those few that will continue to see Jon as evuul.

I especially like the above comment

I believe they were aware about how much the book fans hated their interpretation but they just didn’t give a damn. They were so full of themselves and their brilliance that they couldn’t be bothered.

Listening to their Austin talk, I now think Weiss is a bigger piece of shit than Benioff.

Yeah Linda hated their changes from the very beginning and called it early on.

As @Darryk said, D&D’s arrogance knew no bounds. As the show became popular, so did their arrogance and misplaced confidence in their self-worth. They thought the story written by GRRM was beneath them (themes are for 8th grade book reports) and they could do a far better job. But they always thought they knew better even with the earlier seasons. In S1 they decided to give Cersei a baby with Robert that she loved and who died in infancy when the books clearly say the character made sure she got rid of any chance of getting pregnant with Robert’s child. They wanted to humanize Cersei but in doing so, they made a huge mess of the character and every other character that interacted with her (especially Jamie). GRRM was fooled by them because they guessed Jon’s mother correctly. The problem is they probably got this right not because they knew the books intimately but because they found this info on this website or somewhere else online.

I hope GRRM listens to these two hacks own-up to the fact that they didn’t know much about the books and the characters and did not care to read or know more. Perhaps this will give GRRM the impetus to finally come out and say that D&D’s version was BS and his books were and will be in no way the same story as these two idiots showed.

It appeared to me that everyone on that stage knew and felt that they didn’t deserve it. I’m sure the technicians and actors worked hard but you don’t win awards for effort. They all probably realize the finished product was a mess and nowhere near award worthy. In the earlier part of the Emmys, they had the lead actors of GOT on stage presenting or introducing an award or a show (don’t remember what it was) and that felt really awkward and forced.