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Nevets

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  1. One thing to take note of is the in-world reaction to the fact that Sansa is not yet 13 when she marries. There is none. Unless I've forgotten something, Tyrion is the only person to object on the basis of her age. No one else comments on it, even outside KL. Not even her family objects on that basis. It is also interesting to examine Jon's reaction to the news that Ramsay is to marry Arya. Someone asks how old she is, and he thinks to himself "she's 11." And while he is worried that she might fight back and get herself killed, this is probably mainly due to Ramsay's reputation. At no time does he think that she is too young to marry. Although if the real Arya had shown up, even the assembled Lords might have had questions about it considering her appearance. I doubt that they know her actual age. My point here is that while Sansa's age is on the low end, it does not appear to be so unusual as to attract comment, much less be regarded as unacceptable.
  2. Nevets

    Is Ygritte a rapist?

    That is probably due in large part to the fact that happy couples aren't very dramatic, so we don't read much about them. The ones that are interesting are also the ones that are problematic, for the most part. That's fiction for you.
  3. Nevets

    Is Ygritte a rapist?

    Sam kept hiding from her and otherwise avoiding her. It was clear that he did not want sex with her. It may be closer to harassment than assault as the worst penalty was likely humiliation, harassment, and difficulty with the ship's crew, who were aiding and abetting Gilly.
  4. Nevets

    Is Ygritte a rapist?

    In modern America, it would likely be a criminal offense, but I think prosecutions for female-on-male rape are quite rare, unless the male is a juvenile. Even then, they are not all that common. I would expect that Jon's age at the time (15/16) would be as much or more of a factor in the decision to prosecute as his non-consent. A good case for rape/sexual assault could potentially be made against Gilly for forcing Sam into sex. However he is older and the penalty for refusal were less serious in that case. In neither case would it be considered rape in-world. Which means, of course,, that in neither case would either Jon or Sam consider themselves to be a victim of rape, although they might well feel that they have been ill-treated.
  5. If I erred, I apologize. I haven't paid as close attention as I should have. Too many really long posts. I myself have suggested only that it is legal and acceptable, if a bit unusual. If he had consummated, Tyrion would receive no condemnation, at least in world, on the basis of age. And as explained, there are clear reasons to do it in this case.
  6. Nobody has suggested that marriage at Sansa's age is normal or commonplace. What is being stated is that it is permissible and acceptable, especially if there is a specific reason for it. In this case, Tywin is anxious to prevent Sansa from being used in marriage plots by others. Otherwise, I expect he would be content to let her wait until older.
  7. Sansa's age - I think it is clear that Sansa is of marriageable age in universe. Just because something is unusual and/or discouraged does not mean that it is prohibited or unknown, especially if countervailing forces are present, such as financial or political considerations. For example, irl, Margaret Beaufort became pregnant with the future King Henry VII, whose coronation ended the Wars of the Roses, shortly before she turned 13 (same age as Sansa!). Her husband needed a child for inheritance purposes, hence the early consummation and pregnancy (not that it did him any good; he died before Henry was born). Margaret suffered complications resulting in inability to have future children, thus validating the discouragement of such. In Sansa's case, Tywin needs to get her off the marriage market immediately, hence the early marriage. Otherwise, I've no doubt he would have waited. Legality - Sansa is considered a ward of the Crown. Either Joffrey, as King, or Cersei, as regent, can act in this capacity. As for Joffrey being illegitimate, nobody believes it, or cares much if they do. It is possible, I suppose, that she could get the marriage annulled on grounds of force,etc. in the North, though I don't know. It seems that annulments are the province of the Faith, which can do as it pleases, I suppose. My guess is that they would likely refuse to annul on those grounds, as she gave apparent assent at the ceremony. Winterfell - Any claim that Tyrion can make on WF is quite speculative, even without Robb's Will. If the Northerners refuse to accept Sansa and himself as legitimate claimants, there is little they can really do. The North is too big, spread out,and obstreperous to rule by pure force. I think Tywin mentioned it more as a sop to Tyrion's pride than anything else. Tywin's main concern is ensuring nobody else gets it, at least not through Sansa.
  8. Given that it's from Sansa's POV, it's hard to say what his thoughts are on the subject. And, technically, she's not a child. She has gone through puberty, and (probably) has secondary sexual characteristics like breasts and curves. But it is still a bit icky. And, by Westeros standards (and real-life Middle ages standards, for that matter) she is not a child any more. It is probably worth mentioning that, in Westeros and the real Middle Ages on which it is somewhat based, children, especially younger adolescents, do ( and did) all sorts of things that range from inappropriate to flat-out illegal today. I tend to just roll with it. It's easier that way, if a bit lazy.
  9. I think he realized how much of a child she still was, and wanted no part of it. He also realized how she felt about the situation, and wanted no part of that either. This was well before the infamous slave girl incident, when he was still a (more-or-less) decent person. So I think he is turned off by her child aspect, and, in a way, is trying to be nice. Or maybe I am just giving him too much the benefit of the doubt.
  10. Nevets

    Was Robb drugged?

    You have two teenagers left alone, one consumed by grief, and the other probably encouraged to be more forward and willing than she normally would have been. I don't think much more was really needed. Also, we haven't been told elsewhere of any drugs that would work in this fashion. So, no, he wasn't drugged.
  11. Nevets

    Will Sansa learn in TWOW of fArya's marriage?

    It has occurred to me that if Sansa finds out about the marriage, it would cause her to further distrust Littlefinger. She would most likely assume that it was the real Arya. If so, then the Lannisters would have had her all along, or had managed to recover her. Either way, Littlefinger would have had to know. While she might distrust him, and be inclined to disbelieve anything she is told by him about the marriage, I can see her asking just to see how he responds. If he does tell her it's really Jeyne, it will be interesting to see how she reacts. In any event, while I doubt she knows anything about Ramsay specifically, the Boltons do have a very sketchy reputation, and I expect that she would know that much at least. As to what could cause her to turn on him, I can think of numerous possibilities, of which Jeyne's mistreatment is prominent, as well as his actions towards her parents, and his apparent poisoning of Sweetrobin. Not to mention stuff that could happen in the future. I expect her takedown of Littlefinger will mark her arrival as a player.
  12. Nevets

    Will Sansa learn in TWOW of fArya's marriage?

    When Littlefinger killed her, Lysa was in the process of trying to kill Sansa, and might well have tried again. Marillion was also an ongoing threat - to Sansa and every other female in the Eyrie. I expect that Sansa may be relieved at their passing, if not necessarily the means. She figured out for herself that there was a mole in the Lords Declarant, although LF did confirm it - and seemed pleased that she had figured it out. Everybody expects Sweetrobin to die soon. Even Jaime said flatly that he "wouldn't live long enough to breed", and I don't think he was concerned about homicide. The boy really is in poor health. And if he is being deliberately poisoned, Sansa is surely unaware of that fact. It is worth noting that Sweetrobin's death at this point would be quite inconvenient for Littlefinger, although it is quite possible that he is deliberately being kept in a weakened state. And, as other have mentioned, Sansa does not really trust Littlefinger and never has. It is just that she has no other options at the present moment.
  13. Nevets

    Will Sansa learn in TWOW of fArya's marriage?

    I think it is almost certain that she will find out about Ramsay's marriage to "Arya". The Starks were quite popular in the Vale, so news about them would likely be a popular item. She could hear about it from Myranda, or overhear somebody else talking about it. What she does next is unclear. I would guess that she would assume that it was the real Arya, and that the Lannisters had somehow managed to either keep her or find her. She could ask Littlefinger about it, but might not, especially if she doubts that she will get a truthful answer. I doubt that news about FArya's escape has gotten widely distributed. The Boltons certainly don't want it getting out, and it will likely take time for news to get out from wherever she winds up. If Sansa were to find out about Jeyne's mistreatment, I imagine she would be quite angry. It could even result, or help result, in a breach with Littlefinger, which I think is coming in the not too distant future.
  14. Nevets

    Drastic or unforgivable acts

    Pretty everybody, at least those still alive, is morally compromised to some extent. Brienne, Sansa, and maybe Davos being exceptions (I do not believe for an instant that Sansa intends harm to Sweetrobin). As for those already dead, Ned and Robb's problem was that they underestimated the venality of their adversaries, and had too rigid a concept of honor. They lacked pragmatism (especially Ned, who could have easily launched a bloodless coup). I also agree with @Lyanna<3Rhaegar that a character can fall off the good-guy list without becoming a bad-guy, and can get reinstated as well. Actually, I think it might be more of a sliding scale (say, 1-10 with 1 being Ramsay and 10 being Brienne) I'm not sure what acts are irredeemable. Given the overall level of violence in Westeros, I don't think murder necessarily qualifies, although it can. Things like torture and gratuitous cruelty, as well as significant betrayals will generally do it. Arya is not on my bad-guy list, although she is in serious danger of falling on to it. I think it is still possible to get reinstated to being a good-guy. I think Dareon is her worst act, and I give her some leeway due to her age and experiences. But I worry. Jon is definitely on my good-guy list. I don't hold Ygritte against him. Stannis worries me, but hasn't made it to bad-guy status just yet. Guess I'm getting cynical, or maybe just too forgiving.
  15. Nevets

    The Starks

    You're thinking of the show. In the book, the deserter (Gared) didn't say anything at all. So there was no warning for Ned to ignore. Ned has no idea what is happening beyond the Wall. I don't think there was much death because of this. Obviously, they wanted justice for whoever tried to kill their child, but so would just about any parent. So, they are no different than anyone else. I've absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.. In fact, I don't think I have seen so much blatant nonsense in one paragraph in quite some time.
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