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Evolett

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  1. Can't say I'm convinced we have an echo of the two characters here. We already have Willem Darry and LC Mormont in the role of "the old bear," looking out for their respective Azor Ahai candidates. However, if Leathers/Wunwun and Darry are echoes of each other, one logical idea pertaining to Jon's immediate future comes to mind: with chaos and uncertainty at the Wall, it may be that Jon's body will need to be taken into safe-keeping, perhaps even kept hidden for a while. I can see Leathers and Wunwun playing the "Darry role" here. Leathers will remain loyal to Jon and he is in control of the giant. I can see Leathers taking custody of Jon's body and both acting as guardians if need be.
  2. @Hippocras I really admire your ability to sift through these innumerable family trees and bloodlines and come up with plausible matches and explanations where information is lacking. I must admit to not having the patience for it so my first thought on purple sigils seems elementary in comparison. The colour purple is special in part because it's the colour of Targaryen/Valyrian eyes and usually found in people of Valyrian ancestry. In RL, the trait is very rare. One can assume the Valyrians maintained it through inbreeding or breeding within a relatively confined gene pool. The Daynes who've lived in Westeros since the Dawn Age however also exhibit purple eyes, indicating an origin much older than Valyria (assuming they did not acquire the trait at a later date). Durrandurandon's excellent theory, Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress Reborn opened our eyes to gemstone Emperors as potential ancestors to the Valyrians and a point of origin of the purple eyes. So, it's possible that the purple sigils hint at the ancient and royal GEotD origins of the houses in question, suggesting some blood connection that has been maintained or has entered the bloodlines over the centuries. One thing I noticed while looking through the sigils - most are a combination of purple/silver or purple/white and a few include yellow or gold, all what we've come to accept as Valyrian colouring - purple eyes and silver/gold hair. Stars also occur which could be a nod at the sky worship practiced within the Great Empire (Maiden-made-of-light, Lion of Night, falling stars etc.). While the purple Strangler crystals suggest a connection to poison and death, I suspect purple also symbolizes freedom, secrecy (Braavos, Sansa's escape by means of the Purple Wedding) and possibly the supernatural (Ashara's "haunting eyes").
  3. @Sandy Clegg and @Seams: great thinking! Indeed! I've spent quite a bit of time examining the horned-lord archetype but the hunter aspect kind of passed me by. Love this insight. I'm reminded of the song Tyrion sings frequently - Seasons of my Love. The lyrics: I loved a maid as fair as summer with sunlight in her hair. I loved a maid as red as autumn with sunset in her hair. I loved a maid as white as winter with moonglow in her hair. You'll notice the Spring Maiden is missing. Building up on your idea, it's significant Ramsay kills northern maidens (winter maidens) who would otherwise "bloom" in the followup spring season. Also, I've always been convinced of a distinct parallel between Ramsay's hunting habits and Old Nan's tale about the Others hunting maidens through the forest: The idea is particularly apt regarding the Others. As the source of a generation long winter, their hunting /killing maidens to prevent spring makes sense. I think Alys Karstark is also important in this regard. She flees from a marriage to her great-uncle's son with her great-uncle in pursuit, seeking refuge at Castle Black and arriving there as the "grey girl on a dying horse" from Melisandre's vision. Prior to this, her father Rickard Karstark promises her hand to whoever captures the kingslayer. Vargo Hoat, another horned-lord archetype, maims and captures Jamie with the intention of marrying Alys to become Lord of Karhold. Initially Alys was betrothed to Daryn Hornwood, late son of the unfortunate Lady Hornwood. House Hornwood's sigil depicts a moose - hinting at another horned-lord association. My feeling is that Ramsay officially becomes a dark aspect of the horned-lord archetype after marring Lady Hornwood. You mean Florian and Jonquill? I can see this being the case. Perhaps it takes a certain kind of fool to rescue the maiden as seen in Sansa/Dontos. Patchface may also be in this category. When Davos returns to Dragonstone after surviving the Battle of the Blackwater, he meets Shireen, Patches and Edric Storm in Aegon's garden. They are playing Monsters and Maidens: So Edric plays the monster, Shireen is the maiden, leaving Patches the fool as the knight who rescues the maiden. With his attachment to the Baratheons and his antlered hat, Patchface is another archetypical horned-lord figure. Yes, I've pondering Sam Tarly of the huntsman sigil as a possible "antidote" as well. Jon insists Sam become proficient in bowmanship, something Sam finds difficult but he practices nevertheless. He defends Gilly and her baby against the wights and kills an Other, the embodiment of a long winter. I've added it to my reading list.
  4. I've enjoyed this dive into Sansa's psyche as an attempt to figure out who was the actual target and who actually did it. After going over the relevant chapters again, I'm not convinced, however. The entire conversation between LF and Sansa during which Sansa tries to guess the poisoners identity would be pointless if Sansa was the culprit, imo. LF then brings up the "someone who straigtend the hair net." Either this was part of the plan to dispense the poison or he had someone other than Dontos on hand observing the situation. That said, and from a practical point of view, Lady Olena was not near the table when Joff started choking. She came to Margaery's side when Joff began coughing in earnest. From Cressen's experience, we know the Strangler takes effect immediately after ingestion, so it couldn't have been secreted in a previous cup of wine / food. Sansa definitely had the opportunity to poison either the wine or the pie on the spur of a moment because she was close to both, but there was someone else sitting next to Tyrion all the while and specifically when Joff came along demanding Tyrion serve him wine: Garlan Tyrell. He could have received the crystal from Olena and done the actual deed. Being seated next to Tyrion might indicate Tyrion as the original target, in which case he would have poisoned the pie. I'm in two minds about the latter.
  5. At first glance, the name Eon could simply be a reference to Old Hunter's long rule as head of his house - 60 years or so, probably rivalled only by Walder Frey. Your find has me thinking however. If the author has planted a clue by associating House Hunter with time, what could the connection be? How how about this: in mythology and ancient tradition, the hunter is closely linked to the horned god. This is confirmed in the story through Robert B, a horned-lord archetype and a man who loved to hunt. The horned lord is of course intimately linked to time, to the seasonal cycle. In view of this, it's interesting that Eon is rumored to have been killed by his youngest son. This actually makes sense because horned lords are supposed to die at the end of a season. They aren't supposed to be living on for decades on end. In fact they have to die so the season can come to a close, thus making way for the lord's rebirth and resurrection that ushers in a new season. So, perhaps House Hunter + sigil offers clues to the quirky seasons. Further research also threw up another possibility: the "Arrow of Time," also known as "Time's Arrow." This is a scientific concept: As it happens, there are two novels titled "Time's Arrow." Both might be relevant, especially in view of the notion of a time-travelling Bran. The first is by Arthur C. Clarke, and involves time-travel: In this story, the scientist who goes back in time and ends up being trampled by the dinorsaur. The second novel put me in mind of Bran's series of visions which he experiences as going backwards in time: I mentioned Walder Frey earlier. Incidentally, a member of the Hunter family, Janyce Hunter, is wed to Edwyn Frey, the oldest son of Ser Ryman Frey. Their daughter Walda Frey (not Fat Walda) is now second in line to inherit the twins. This seems somehow significant. When you think of Walder Frey in terms of a fertility god/horned god (think also of Norse god Frey, god of fertility and prosperity), besides his Garth image, it's obvious he's been in power for far too long. Plenty of room for speculation
  6. I'm not suggesting he'll end up as king, just that his lineage may be royal, perhaps way back, perhaps shedding a bit of light on House Payne. The parallels between Pod and Edric are quite striking. In whatever way, we're meant to see a connection between Payne and Dayne but I'm not sure Podrick is a red herring. It could also be the other way round. Edric has already served a resurrected man, a "true knight" who continued his set mission while also caring for the smallfolk. Thus Podrick's ultimate role could be similar - to serve a key player who will be resurrected in the future - Jon Snow, or someone else? Well, like a pod, Pod has already been "dispersed" and has travelled far and wide - abandonded by his mother, passed on to his cousin Cedric, attaching himself to a hedge knight, assigned to Tyrion and then following Brienne to end up in her service. So the name does suit him perfectly. The question is, where will the pod finally settle and grow? The suffix -pod also means foot, so maybe there is another layer of meaning there in relation to the Dunk/Egg, Brienne/Pod parallel. Podrick is so shy that he's said to "speak to his toes" instead of looking at the person talking to him. I'm reminded of Dunk's perplexion over Baelor dying to save Dunk's foot: Will the realm need Podrick even more than a prince's life? I recall the curious detail about Pod having a dog named Hero in his childhood. I recall a few things I've read/heard. Roughly: - diverging from the naming conventions of most authors who usually choose character names distinct from each other so as not to confuse the reader. GRRM keeps it realistic by having repeating names within families and beyond. - choosing names or wording that can be interpreted in different ways. - not being able to write about a character until he has decided on a name.
  7. The close parallel between Dunk and Egg / Brienne and Pod makes me wonder whether Pod has royal roots, like Egg (Aegon). We know little about House Payne or the cadet branch from which Pod stems. The white, gold and purple colours of the Payne sigil were colours typically used by royalty in medieval times, perhaps a hint, while the coins may speak to a more affluent past. The name Podrick (or Irish Pádraic) derives from Latin Patricius, meaning "of the patrician class." The Patricians were originally nobles, a group of ruling class families in ancient Rome. For those who enjoy word play and etymology, the "rick" portion of a name means "ruler / king" (Proto-Germanic) - see also Edric Storm, Robert's natural son. We know GRRM choses his names with care and Podrick's name is unique in the series. It wouldn't surprise me if the history of House Payne turns out to be very interesting.
  8. There’s plenty to unpack here, interesting ideas, some of which resonate with me and others which I have a different opinion on. The Faith’s present level of organization is what we might expect for the period the story is set in. Though I don’t recall any info on how holy men and women are ordained, there’s a hierarchy ranging from the High Septon to begging brothers, each fulfilling a distinct role. GRRM has not divulged much on the Most Devout but since they are responsible for electing the High Septon, we can assume they correspond to cardinals of the Catholic Church. As such, besides electing, their duties probably include counseling the High Septon, playing a part in governance of the church and perhaps acting as envoys when necessary. I could not find a mention of the Faith funding the building of septs throughout the realm. Affluent lords erect septs on their lands and premises and employ septons, while poorer communities make do with simple structures and have their religious needs catered to by wandering septons such as Meribald. In fact, this appears to have been the case from the very beginning and hints at a lack of stringent organisation at the time. The World Book makes mention of the “Three Sage Kings” of Highgarden in particular. They followed a policy of assimilation rather than resistance, building septs, funding the construction of motherhouses and septries all over the Reach as well as inviting Andal craftsmen to teach the art of blacksmithing. With their maxim of “war is bad for trade,” the Hightowers / Oldtown followed a similar strategy right up to the building of the Starry Sept so the Gardeners and Hightowers appear to have been on the same page in this regard. And importantly, the Hightower's tight relationship with the Faith meant the Gardeners probably just let it be, rather than contend with the Faith Militant as well. It's not so odd that the Andals took so long to reach Oldtown, or that the Starry Sept was built there, imo. Regarding the former, they spent centuries battling the first men, fighting for dominance over the FM and each other, acquiring lands etc. The sea-route to the west was originally blocked to them by the fleets of Oldtown and the Arbor: With the exception of the Faith Militant, I doubt the Andals were particularly organized at the time of their arrival in Westeros, nor did they have a spiritual leader who would commission and organize the building of a major sept anywhere. It’s evident that the Faith itself evolved further after the arrival of the Andals. While formerly two symbols appear to have been in use, the Seven-Pointed-Star took precedence over the double-bladed axe as the main symbol (in fact, the existence of two different symbols suggests the Andals may have arrived with differing religious beliefs – the schism that was sorted out somewhere along the line, so to speak). The hierarchy of the clergy was extended with the naming of the first High Septon, possibly also creating the position of Most Devout at the same time: So Septon Robeson was probably the first official leader of the Faith in Westeros invested with all the relevant power and duties (including enhancing the organization of religion). Perhaps the title of Most Devout was originally bestowed upon particularly fervent, important, or useful FM-converts to the Faith who with time then also acted as counselors and electors. We see converted FM-lords prioritizing the building of septs, not so the Andals themselves. Oldtown was already a large port city at the time, larger and more important than Gulltown, prospering on trade, with the Hightowers profiting from local and overseas commerce. And once converted, they proved their faith, building first a number of smaller septs and then the Starry Sept. I think the point is the Hightowers simply had the financial means to do this, recognized the advantages of being closely affiliated with Faith and consolidating their relationship with a clearly more powerful adversary. A thriving port city such as Oldtown would also have been the perfect location for a major sept and of course we can speculate on the parallel between the Starry Sept and branches of the Church of Starry Wisdom which are also located at port cities around the world. I agree. These aspects aren't well fleshed out. The purpose of the Faith? From what we can gather from his short bio, Hugor of the Hill was probably a religious leader as well as King of the Andals, but this circumstance does not seem to have been repeated during their history. Qarlon the Great’s ambition was to conquer and crown himself “King of the Andals,” but his endeavor was crushed by Valyria. Their arrival in Westeros did not lead to a unification of the continent under one ruler either, instead, the overlords carved out kingdoms for themselves. It took Aegon the Conqueror to unify the continent more or less into one nation or political unit. However, I think the Faith as a unifying religious principle is very important to the fight against the “big bad,” be that Euron, the Others or both. This is where my view differs from yours. IMO, the author has highlighted certain important aspects of the relationship between the Targs and the Faith strongly suggestive of forging cooperation between the two sides over the centuries. I think many of the examples you’ve put forward in support of possible heinous motives by a faction of the Faith actually point to the opposite: - Aegon I is crowned by and accepts the Faith. - Jaehaerys I and Septon Barth forge an unlikely but fruitful partnership and friendship. - After the disbanding of the Faith Militant, the Crown promises to defend and protect the Faith. - Faith agreed to accept justice from the Iron Throne instead of trying the faithful themselves. - The Doctrine of Exceptionalism, approved by the Faith, allows the Targs to continue their magical bloodline, a factor essential to the coming conflict. - The High Septon moves to the Great Sept of Balor in King’s Landing, close to the Iron Throne, the Targs, the seat of power. - The Faith turning a blind eye to the practices in Dorne is important to retaining Dorne within the alliance – remember “unbowed, unbent, unbroken ” - the Dornish would never give up their special traditions. Better to ignore the circumstances and keep them in the kingdom without a fight. - My guess is the North must be mainly “Faith free” to enable certain magics but even here we have the Manderlys representing the Faith and of course Ned built a sept right on the grounds of Winterfell for Catelyn, with a septon on premises as well as Septa Mordane as governess to the children. The children are also brought up in the Faith. Here we have a demonstration of integration. What role exactly the Faith will play is up for speculation. Fact is, the realm Aegon forged has fallen to pieces politically at the worst possible time. The Fot7 is the only overriding unifying principle much of the population can believe in and relate to, something to bind them together and this may even come to include some current non-believers. People will literally need to be “armoured in faith.” There's so much more to comment on. Perhaps I'll find time over the next few days.
  9. Certainly something similar to MMD's ritual (only in part), especially since Mirri studied the arcane arts in Asshai by the Shadow and there are histories claming an ancient people from Asshai taught the Valyrians how to tame dragons. I think we are meant to connect these two bits of information. Miiri's study of the arcane arts in Asshai included shadowbinding. She specifically mentions learning from mages in Asshai by the Shadow, the same place where Melisandre trained to be a shadowbinder. As such, I suspect the ancients taught the Valyrians a form of shadowbinding as a means to "tame" dragons. There are a few possibilities as to how the original Valyrians went about it. I imagine they performed their initial rituals with fresh dragon eggs or perhaps even with hatchlings. A shadowbinder would have had to bind the soul of the sacrificed individual to the dragon. It could have involved an external binding process or else directing the deceased's soul into the dragon. Since Valyrians claim they are kin to their dragons, the sacrificed person would have had to be related to the family aiming to bond with and control the beast. In F&B it is speculated that the Cannibal's antagonism towards the Targaryen dragons was because he was of a different lineage. If dragon-bonding is family-specific, then lineage here implies the Cannibal was originally bonded to a different Valyrian family. With Mel requiring kingsblood to wake a dragon from stone, I wonder what her ritual would look like. Would she have burned Edric Storm and bound his shadow to the stone dragon to wake it? She doesn't reveal specifics. Old Nan's tale of "the thing in the night" provides us with an idea of what external shadowbinding may look like in practice: This is an external attachment of course and most likely the kind of shadowbinding that binds wights to the Others. It's also possible that the shades of Beric and Lady Stoneheart were bound to their corpses in a similar manner. With the dragons, the soul of the sacrificed individual is probably internalized, mediated by the maegi. There a hint at this at the beginning of Mirri's ritual to revive Drogo when she orders the "strength" of the horse to go into the man. This suggests she's capable of commanding and directing spirits/life force to enter another body. Notice she's singing here. That brings me to Mirri's singing while she's burning at the stake during Dany's ritual. She was well versed in the birthing songs of the Jogos Nhai. In fact, she was an expert midwife and mentions she's never lost a child: Now, Mirri was taught by the moonsingers. Moonsingers. And accroding to the legend of Qarth, dragons were "born" from the moon. So did MMD's song play a crucial role in the birth of Dany's dragons? Was she singing spells to promote birth? I think this is a necessary ingredient.
  10. Actually, this Hog / pig-boy who is a "burial mound spirit" brings Borroq and his boar to mind, both now having taken an ancient tomb at CB as their abode. Borroq, a near perfect image of a Draugr. I don't recall all of the arguments you've put forward regarding the symbolic connections between Pate the Pig Boy and Jon Snow, but there might be some subtle parallels between Borroq and the Alchemist. The latter has now taken role of poor Pate and is now the official "hog-boy" wearing the face of the former dead one. One could argue that unlike the "unknowing" Jon and Pate, Borroq and the Alchemist are each masters of their own brand skinchanging. I've put forward the idea that Borroq aims to rip Ghost from Jon for the future purpose of a second life. In this scenario, Ghost is akin to the key coveted and acquired by the Alchemist. Ghost is indeed an important "key," the key to Jon's resurrection, most think but my guess is it goes further than that. I think Ghost is the key to knowledge Jon needs just as the key now in possession of the Alchemist will open the doors to books, glass candles, whatever knowledge the FM is looking for.
  11. The context of the prior conversation in the prologue is important. They are talking about the dead wildlings, pronounced dead by Will but this is doubted by Waymar, to which Will replies ... Unless GRRM intended to cast doubt on former wet nurse Old Nan and her tales shortly before introducing her in the first chapter, I feel if there's a connection between the two passages, it is the mention of song / music. Many fans assume the birth of the dragons involved a transfer of souls, most likely the souls of Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri. Perhaps by linking the wetnurse / breastfeeding, singing/music and the dead, the author is hinting to the first-time reader that a resurrection takes place both in the prologue and at the end of the book.
  12. Thirteen seems quite significant and GRRM definitely references the unlucky or negative aspect of the number: Night's King of course stands out as the legendary evil 13th LC of the NW who ruled for 13 years. Xaro who offers Dany thirteen galleys is of the mechant guild named the "Thirteen." The last hero and his companions numbered 13 in all. And many child characters such as Joffery, Daenerys, Sansa and Jojen begin the story at the age of thirteen; Jamie won a tourney melee at the age of thirteen. My guess is there's a connection between all these instances that if deciphered, may inform on the last hero or NK.
  13. Goodness, what have you dug up? I probably have to read over that thread to refresh my memory
  14. Well, lemons do find their way up North. From Jon we know Mormont had lemon juice in his beer every day. Not whenever lemons available, but everyday. Considering that some inns down south can't get hold of the fruit, that suggests a good supply finding its way to the NW, perhaps by way of Eastwatch. In any case, since according to Sansa, the glass gardens are always as warm as "the hottest day of summer", I can imagine lemons growing there as well. The tropical greenhouse environment would allow it. We learn the garden also has unspecified trees: Maybe also a lemon tree? There's no mention of how large the gardens are but the mention of trees, plural suggests a sizable area. Perhaps different kinds of fruit trees. They wouldn't carry fruit throughout the year, which would explain the intermittent availability Sansa remembers.
  15. It's difficult to approach this without considering the associated symbolism. I'll sum up a number of relevant symbols: - shit for honour (someone who has shit for honour is dishonourable) - shit turns to gold (shitting gold, shit has great value) - gold and whores (buried trreasure) buried beneath a privy/chamber pot - whores as secret treasure - golden hands - the difference between latrines, privys and chamber pots - perhaps also significant: lavatory stems from lavare meaning "to wash." A lavatory is a washroom for washing and washerwoman is a polite way of saying "whore." The difference between latrines, privys and chamber pots stood out to me recently. Latrines we see in the story are usually public affairs such as the laterine ditches dug for the use of camped armies. Contrasting this are privys and chamber pots, both private affairs. The privy is a fixed installation leading to drains/sewers, while the chamber pot is mobile and must be emptied to prevent it from overflowing. In relation to Jamie having shit for honour and the spot where he was knighted transformed into a latrine at Harrenhal, this could merely be symbolic of the public perception of his dishonourable character - the public latrine symbolizing the dishonourable act of kingslaying. It's public knowledge, no secret. His once secret affair with Cersei is no longer a secret either. When Tyrion escapes to the Second Sons, he's given some advice that supports this view: This sets up an interesting connection between the toilet motif and eyes / seeing. Presumably latrines are not suited to clandestine activities, neither would one hide anything valuable there, but a privy or a chamber pot could serve these purposes as we see with Rugen's gold coin hidden beneath a chamber pot and the buried treasure /whores beneath a privy entrance. The following passage from the Whitewalls Tourney combines all three - the dragon's egg as a valuable object, the privy and seeing + the dwarf: So, a potential greenseeing reference here. Additionally, this seems to circle back to Tyrion and Penny who are a little troupe of comic dwarfs and by extension to Tysha, worth lots of silver and a gold coin and origin of the question "where do whores go"? Golden hands As a side note, this image of being 'bound to a tree yet still feared'. Jamie's stinking, rotting hand as a representation of his soiled knightly honour is an important clue methinks. Jamie's stinking hand is replaced by a gold hand (or turns to gold), a kind of parallel to Tywin's shit turning into gold. What happens when "soiled honour" turns into gold? Do golden hands become "stranglers?" (Tyrion strangling Shae with a necklace of golden hands). Jamie bound to a tree while wearing his stinking hand may tie into the "seeing latrine eyes" and Bloodraven /greenseeing reference in connection with the privy shaft above. Perhaps hands are generally part of the puzzle. The gold coin beneath the chamber pot in Rugen/Varys quarters is an old Gardener coin depicting a hand. Note here too we have an "all seeing" motif in the form of the spymaster Varys. Cersei wanted Jamie to take the position of Hand. Tywin, with all his golden Lannister symbolism was a "golden Hand," Jon Arryn was Hand to Robert. It was he who negotiated Robert's marriage to Cersei and advised on Jamie staying in the Kingsguard. So he basically facilitated Lannister attachment to the throne. Secret Treasure How all this relates to the John/Jon toilet motif I can't say. What seems most relevant to me is the idea that privys can contain or conceal buried treasure/secret treasure. So far we've seen gold/shit, a golden coin depicting a hand, whores and a dragon egg. Jon had hardly any gold currency to spare so he definitely doesn't shit gold but he's found buried treasure, the obsidian cache. He has a symbolic toilet in the form of Edd at his disposal though, as well as a whore (Satin). Jeyne who spent time in LF's brothels and who has been warned by Theon that she'll be labled a whore if she does not go on being Arya, is on her way to Castle Black. Are Satin and Jeyne "hidden treasures"? The NW will soon be short of food/grain (the Gardner coin). He will come into contact with Dany /ride a dragon at some point. Having been born on a "midden heap," Gilly's baby could be relevant (in the German version, Gilly's name translates to "Goldie"). Jon's associated with two greenseers, if that's part of it. Perhaps these are all ingredients he must collect to accomplish his mission. Contemplating this list reminds me of Littlefinger. Perhaps the link between the "jon" motif and Jon Arryn isn't Jon Arryn himself. Maybe its the Lord Protector of the Vale and master of the Moon Door "outhouse" that's significant, now held by Littlefinger. He doesn't shit gold, he breeds it. He has several brothels with hundreds of whores at his disposal. Sansa is his "buried treasure." He has amassed grain (the Gardner coin symbol). Sweetrobin may be the magical greenseer element. He has everything in abundance, except for a dragon. To conclude, there may be a not so obvious cyvasse game going on between LF and Jon, both still in the process of setting up their pieces for the near future.
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