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  1. I was saying that if Doran had helped him in someway Viserys would have turned out fine. but Doran neglected him and therefore the Viserys we saw wasn't any good to Doran's plans. so I argued that if Doran wanted his plan to work at the end of the day, he should have taken the risk and aided Targlings
  2. but he wants a winning hand so he needed to take some risks... honestly, let's say Viserys and Dorne did take the IT .. still, would the Viserys we knew be the thing Doran needed? ... a terrible husband for his daughter and a useless king for the realm? how could that Viserys satisfy Dorne's desires? how could he keep his crown considering Dorne's small army? ... Doran should have worked harder for his agenda... even Barristan himself think that wasn't the honorable thing to do after he is set aside. the thing about honor ( whether in the story or in reality) is that it's a loose concept. there is no one way to define it and it's circumstantial .. so I doubt you and I can reach any sort of agreement on this
  3. it's not considered rape in their time but we see it's affect on Cersei plainly and is one of the more important contributing factors to Cersei's behavior alongside Tywin's years of ...well.. misguidance( which clearly has its affects on all of his children.) , therefore it matters to discuss it.
  4. huhh... I wonder why do book characters think Rhaegar was capable or smart or a good man???!! these two possibilities are both likely and they are both downright idiotic and cruel...
  5. Cersei is a sympathetic figure and she is an evil person. They don't contradict in anyway. - she loves her children in her own way ... but she literally abuses Tommen ... think about it ..her favorite is Joffrey ...what does it say about her? -she loves Jaimie in her own way but in a way she exploits him - she was messed up by her father but that's merely an explanation for her actions rather than an excuse. - she was abused by Robert but while it explains her ever growing lost for power, it doesn't justify the means she employs to get it - she hates the fact she was born a woman in this society which makes us feel for her but it doesn't make her way of thinking ( for example septas are probably wish to get raped) ok - Cersei's walk of shame was gut wrenching but it still doesn't suddenly turn Cersei from a horrible woman to heroine . it only makes her a vile woman who is the product of her environment and is now Wronged again which will probably will be even worse due to this - as for all her insecurities they are again where we feel for her and understand her . nothing more. you could compare her to Dany who also has many insecurities and was abused all her life. yet she makes different choices. they are most certainly WRONG.
  6. yes but the point is he wanted fire and blood as well as power... is it too much to ask of him to do something other than writing some marriage contract? no honor would have told him that the way Robert took IT was not honorable and thus he was no true king. I explained how Robert crowning himself could have been honorable. but again the point here is how highly Barristan puts his honor so that's what is wrong with him staying with Robert. but I did say that Barristan's choice was acceptable
  7. who knows? maybe Robert was faster than Aryn in his proposal maybe Elbert had other plans maybe even Cersei since Jaimie was to be with Lysa making North, Vale, Stormsland, Riverlands and Westerlands connected maybe Rickard Stark wanted to be relative to the royal family maybe all the above:)
  8. I don't think it's forced ... maybe just a little but Martin had.. what?.. 3 years to change the-very-evil-Jaimie in his first draft to just-one-king-slayer-Jaimie in book one. and no one ever asked Jaimie why he killed the mad king... every thing seemed obvious .. for Tywin it was convenience that his son is on his side. for Robert , Ned and the rest it seemed a part of Lannister's joining the rebellion .
  9. look, it is by all means logical for Barristan and Doran not to help Targeryen kids , especially Doran who had a kingdom to protect and a family to think of. But the reason their.. neglect.. in this issue makes me somewhat furious lies in different things. Doran had a plan to use Viserys's name in order to take a revenge and restore his family's lost power in court by making his daughter queen . at the very least he could make sure that this little boy who had lost everyone of his friends and family grows up to become a competent king by perhaps sending out someone to him and his sister (maybe a supposed exiled lord or his wife who wanted to move to Norvos anyways) , instead as far as we know he did nothing and the boy who he had invested so much in became a paranoid idiot begger king who got himself killed way too soon. on the other hand, Barristan seem to care about his honor above all else , even his own life. yet, he chose the easier path, the path that literally didn't need any effort. he had the chance to run away in the chaos when the new government was forming. he had a chance every night that people slept to leave. he could run away when Joffrey had sent people to kill him so surely he could leave when no one doubted him much. the problem with Barristan's decision is that he is a bit hypocrite in his high values while he himself chose something that best suited him rather than what honor demanded of him. this would have been different if Robert had crowned Aegon and set himself as his regent , it would have even been different if rebels had held a council to disinherit Viserys , Deanerys , Raella and Rhaegar's children . after all Robert used his Targ lineage as much as his right in conquest to sit the throne . but none of these happened which made him from a rebel fighting a crazy king and a rapist prince to a usurper. that is why according to everything Barristan stands for , working for Robert the usurper who in Barristan's mind killed his favorite prince to become king was wrong.
  10. as @rotting sea cow said ,Jon has some dreams that could be counted as dragon dreams. but even if he didn't that wouldn't mean anything. there had been Targs with no Targ feature or dreaming abilities. and anyway whoever Jon's dad might be the important person in his arc is his mother, hence the crypts. unless of course I'm wrong and his dad Brandon Stark is giving him crypt dreams to tell jon that he could be winterfell heir if he had married Ashara!!! there is one more thing to keep in mind and that's -as it seems- these magical abilities can be enhanced by being near magical elements/places and/or being aware of them. for instance , Dany's dreams seem to be more whenever she holds an egg or Bran whose abilities improve when he is with his wolf or near the weirwood or after he gains some knowledge into what he'll be able to do after meeting Reeds.
  11. I hope so , but I'm not so sure if that'll happen. He's got greyscale and that must mean something... my guess is he'll be alive till the very end of winds but not more, though his disease might cause some extremely irrational decisions on his part which in my own very tinfoil mind could shift Aegon from half-a-boy to a man/real king.
  12. sure. Dany and Viserys's relationship was extremely toxic and abnormal at any level and each of them was hurt and traumatized in a different way. Viserys was broken under the pressure of being the last surviving male heir of his dynasty, losing his whole family and home and taking care of a little sister who in his mind had killed their mother to be born. if you compare their relationship with that of Cersei and Tyrion , Viserys seems like an angel. even according to Dany he wasn't always the horrible brother we see in aGoT which makes me often furious at people like Barristan and even Doran who had the chance to help these kids. on the other hand, as Viserys grew worse he himself became more of the reason to mess Dany up. she also was lost and she had lost her ser Willem too and worse than that she was literally losing her brother too though he was physically alive . we saw that in the chapter that Viserys dies and she calls him the man who used to be her brother and he filled her with a huge amount of self doubt which is explicit in all of her chapters and her guilt in her last chapter. moreover , now that Viserys is gone she seems under the pressure to take their home back both because of herself finally finding home and because they were wronged. that makes one worried about this character should she loses the people who keep her on the right path.
  13. honestly for Richard a decision between loyalty to a prince/friend and a drinking body/ liege lord shouldn't have been that hard since technically a friend comes before a drinking body as a the prince of the realm comes before the liege lord . though I do agree that Lem (or Richard if he is) must have had make hard choice but I suppose it must also be somehow related to the wife and daughter he lost ... as long as we know Richard wasn't married so I guess we should make assumptions about women or children near him that he might have either loved or felt responsibility towards .
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