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sweetsunray

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About sweetsunray

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    House Rave, For the Critical Watch

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  1. sweetsunray

    Was the drowning of the Reynes justified?

    It's in stages: Ignoring his father, he demanded the houses to pay back the loans. Reynes and Tarbeck refused. Tarbeck came to negotiate with Tywin's father, but Tywin imprisoned him. In response Ellyn took Lannister hostages delivering the message (including Tywin's brother in law). She messaged them over the exchange of prisoners/hostages, and Tywin wanted to send her husband back in 3 pieces (she held 3 Lannister hostages, 2 were Lannisport). Tywin's father overruled Tywin, set Lord Tarbeck free and forgave them their loans/debts. Within the year, again without his father's knowledge, Tywin sent a message, demanding the Reynes and Tarbecks would have to come to court to pay for their crimes. They refused and he sent an attack. The surrender request was actually done by Reynald Reyne, once he had everyone secure inside Castamere. So, a Reyne asked Tywin to surrender (and this was after Tywin had executed Lord Tarbeck and his sons after being caught at the battle of Tarbeck Hall, the destruction of Tarbeck Hall and having Ellyn's last surviving grandon (a child) drowned in a well, and her daughter forced into the Silent Sisters. Lord Tarbeck asked for his sons to be spared. Tywin did not spare them. Tywin did not demand a surrender of the Reynes. If you know that Tywin would not spare or accept a surrender of you anyway, but will kill all of your family, why would you even surrender?
  2. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    But a "bedding" can be ceremonial or symbolical. And there have been weddings without consummation or even a ceremonial bedding. Emisandre and Tygett were wedded, however, but not bedded. A wedding does not necessitate an immediate "bedding". While most would just keep it a betrothal. Some require a wedding ceremony, because a wedding still requires at least one party asking for an annulment, whereas no such thing is required with a betrothal.
  3. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    No it doesn't. The in-between is ambuguous, therefore can be perverse or cannot be. There is a reason for it. It is to indicate that certainly bedding a girl before she flowered is perverse, that a post-flowered girl depends. According to George a girl who has flowered and is under-age has an ambiguous status. According to George many men who have been in the rare situation to be wedded to an underage-but flowered maiden wait until their wife is 15 to 16. Yes, you seem to misunderstand the big picture often, sort of like equating "at least 12" with "approximately 12". Ah, so if a man desires a child (he thinks of her as a child) he cannot wait. No, he didn't. He mollested her and resented her for not loving him because he didn't rape her. Great standard. I disagree.
  4. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    "Also, if your sister Arya is returned to us safely, it is agreed that she will marry Lord Walder's youngest son, Elmar, when the two of them come of age." The two of them come of age. With one f. Means when they are legal adults, aka 16. Cat was doing the negotiations here, and she wed when she was a legal adult already (born in either 264 or 265, wed in 282, and thus 17), despite being bethrothed since she was 12. Even her sister who was wed off quickly, was already 15 (2 years younger than Cat). Cat also knows like Robb that Arya would need time to be prepped into this and thus forcing her to wed as soon as she flowers is not something that Cat would have agreed to. This wasn't the intention with Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey either.
  5. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    That's not what he states. It doesn't follow that because he affirms that bedding an unflowered girl is perverse that by definition bedding a just-flowered maiden is not perverse. It is an ambiguous situation. That is his opening clarification about underage girls that have flowered. All will depend on the actual age of flowering, the situation and circumstances and the individual characters involved. For example George has several highborn maidens who were voluntarily deflowered at the age of 13-14 without being wed, often with a guy who's barely an adult himself at the time: Asha, Arianne, etc... which given the pairing in the question should be accounted for to have been in the back of George's mind when answering the question. He will likely have Arya and Sansa engage into a sexual relationship at a very young age to our modern world views, especially with the drop of the 5 year gap, but those would be mutual consentual relationships with a guy of their own choice, likely even outside of marriage. Are these hypothetical men or boys to be regarded as perverts? No. Are adult men getting off on a forcibly wed and raped maidens of 12 and 13 who cannot wait for 2 years before bedding them perverts? Yes.
  6. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    So, you're trying to prove a positive with absense of evidence, despite the fact that even Tywin, who doesn't care really, lets Tyrion know it's absolutely normal for Tyrion to wait several years before having a sexual relationship with Sansa?
  7. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    No he doesn't need to "conclude" that. It's inferred with the many who wait until 15-16 of the few weddings pre-legal-adult that come about from rare but not uncommon pre-buscent bethrothals amongst nobility.
  8. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Who are all the other characters who say it's not perverse? Where does GRRM say "it's not perverse".
  9. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    He doesn't need to, because it's built up explanation.
  10. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Being "off age" = "legal adult" = 16 in Westeros. We don't have any else's thoughts aside from Theon's who's Reek. We do have mountain clans joining Stannis for the Ned's girl, and we know that several lords and Lady Dustin aren't happy with it, especially with Ramsay using her so much. Also Jeyne Poole is almost 4 at the time. That's still too young, but there is a difference of over 2 years with the real Arya, and it doesn't seem most lords and ladies seem to know Arya's real age (10 and not yet flowered).
  11. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    When Tyrion learns of her age and considers her physically and thinks of her as a child and is uncomfortable about desiring her. I'm not. George built the whole argument. If this and this and that. He includes marriages and flowering amongst non-nobles. This befits the question he answered: The question is not about "girls of nobility of 12-13" but the general Westerosi view of girls of 12-13 who have flowered.
  12. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    No, "off age" does not mean flowering. This is made clear because Catelyn says "when both are off age". Arya's bethrothed won't flower after all, but only will be off age when he's 16. Jon considers it young.
  13. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    In comparison to ALL marriages it is rare. There are fewer nobility, thus fewer marriages of nobility. Of these fewer marriages, a minority are arranged at a pre-buscent age, out of which the majority of the minority of the few are not consummated before flowering, and rarely before the age of 15-16. And I'm saying it happens, it is indeed considered perverse by in-world characters, and it is rare per all the provisions.
  14. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    Yes, Rohanne is one of those exceptions. However, I doubt she was bedded at 10. It was probably more like a marriage between Tommen and Margaery, and her first husband was only 12. Her second marriage is appalling in every way. She has had many more marriages. Of course, Rohanne's marriages are a bit of a literary twist. Duncan learns of the Red Widow and all these tales of all the husbands she supposedly got killed. Duncan and the reader imagine her to be a woman in her middle ages at least, and he's shocked to meet with a young, handsome woman. That's when we learn of the many marriages she had had, and not one child survived long. Regardless she managed to have four sons with Gerold Lannister at a more mature age. Her father however is not portrayed as a responsible man, trying to marry her off yet again to Inchfield and the provision in his will she had to marry within 2 years after his death or the estate and lands would go to another.
  15. sweetsunray

    Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

    I meant that he uses ambiguous to mean the status of a girl who has flowered but is not yet off age. Or he means that in older cultures than the present one in Westeros would regard girls who have just flowered "fit to be wedded and bedded", which is why he adds at the end of the argument that maesters would have caught on that girls tend to have a very high mortality rate if they birth children before the age of 15-16. Older cultures than the current Westerosi one may also have poorer living conditions where girls would tend to flower later. In this case he doesn't need to, because Tyrion deems it perverse. If many men choose to wait it is "custom". The majority of marriages are smallfolk marriages, who tend to flower later and have no need to arrange marriages for pre-buscent children. The minority of marriages are marriages amonst the nobility, and it is not uncommon for betrothals to be arranged for children at pre-buscent ages, but that does not mean the majority of them are arranged at such an age. Only during war times when requiring allies (Dany, Arya, Mooton's daughter to Dickon), betrothals to royalty such as underage kings (Aegon III, Arianne to Viserys) or crown princes (Sansa to Joffrey) or some last female heir to coveted land (baby Emisandre) and the exceptional arrangement with a warden's heir (Catelyn), do these very young betrothals occur. These are particular situations and thus a rarity even amongst the nobility. Only a minority of these rare betrothals actually include a wedding ceremony (Tommen, baby Emisandre) when the children are pre-buscent and it is certainly perverse to consummate them. With the majority of these rare pre-buscent betrothals the wedding is delayed until the girl has flowered, but even then many men wait to consummate. So, yes, consummation of a child-bride who has flowered is rare and hardly happens. There is a difference between "plenty of exceptions" and "many men". The significant word here is "exceptions". I already agreed that "it happens". I assert per the above it's "rare". No he doesn't. Saying that bedding pre-buscent children is perverse does not mean he refutes it's not perverse to bed 12 year olds who have flowered. Besides, he's the one who wrote Tyrion considering it perverse and himself perverse for desiring her. Duh... Yeah, Tywin wants Sansa his child hostage to be raped, on the flimsy excuse that she's flowered, to make sure that the marriage cannot be contested, because it's a rare event, a hostile act that neither her family nor Sansa would agree with and plenty of people would attempt to undo. It is certain though that Tywin regards it "normal" for a man to have a sexual relationship with a flowered maiden who's a few years older rather than 12. He doesn't need to note that. He gives us the examples of the "plent exceptions" in the books.
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