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About sweetsunray

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    House Rave, For the Critical Watch

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  1. Where's the evidence that Rickard, Robert and Ned, Jon etc were conspiring against Aerys? Marriage arrangements in the same line that Targ queens had normalized two centuries before already? Brandon was a hot head, challenging Rhaegar to a duel, after Rhaegar kidnapped Brandon's sister. That such a thing could not go without some form of punishment is to be expected, but a hotheaded heir's reaction does not make a conspiracy. Aerys demanded Rickard to come to KL, and Rickard did so. Conspiritors and rebels would not do so. See Robb. And it's total bull that a king is free to execute people he accuses without a trial. With Joffrey you have more than an alleged conspiracy. You actually have a king ending up dead from poison, a death witnessed by hundreds of people. Tyrion is accused of it, and he gets a trial and even a fight between champions. Aegon II was poisoned, and yes, the conspiritors had a trial and plenty of them got to choose to join the NW. Egg had a Baratheon rebellion on his hands because of an arranged marriage falling through. He appeased the insulted Great House via compensations. Mad Aerys pretty much tried to rule like Maegor the Cruel, without having a royal army and without having dragons. Do not mistake feudalism for totalitarian kings of the 16th century.
  2. sweetsunray

    Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully: The true villains

    So, the liar and schemer Baelish isn't responsible? And Cersei trying to get Joffrey who wasn't even a son of Robert on the throne is flawless? lmao. Inheritance laws have little to do with "how well the heir is liked", it does however has everything to do with being the actual king's son or daughter. George writes situations as a result of a chain of bad choices by a lot of people. It never falls on just one person.
  3. Those arranged marriages weren't forced onto the great houses, but mediated by the queens, because they realized that one way to promote lasting peace between regions that used to be kingdoms fighting each other was to have prior enemies wed one another. The king didn't order houses whom to wed. None of them ever did. So, no, you are completely wrong in that kings decided who great houses should marry and that loyal subjects would marry by decree of a king. As if the Targs didn't have issues enough getting the realm to reconcile with their own incestuous marriages. The point is that Targs promoted and mediated and saw such inter-great-house marriages as beneficial. Those marriages did not just become normalized. They are the very foundation why North, the Vale and the Riverlands already have historical family ties. Two centuries later, the Targs did not need to mediate anymore, since there was peace and those Great Houses already had historical family ties. Aerys's paranoya against something that had been normalized and his disregard of judicial proceedings is what causes the rebellion. Replace Aerys with any other non-crazy Targ king and no rebellion would have happened, even if that non-crazy king had a son eloping with Lyanna. Such a king would have mediated and offered compensation to any insult done to any of his wardens.
  4. sweetsunray

    Why do we not hear of Targyen parents marrying their offspring?

    Rather to make sure that siblings with dragons didn't start killing each other for the seat of power. And there were Targ siblings who married one another out of mutual attraction.
  5. There was nothing strange about these marriages, Aegon the Conquerer's sister-wives arranged marriages between great houses of regions (including one between House Stark and Arryn) and so did Queen Alysanne Targaryen. House Stark, Tully and Arryn were only doing what the first Targs tried to establish. That Aerys thought it a threat is just further evidence of his paranoia.
  6. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    I disagree that Varys and Illyrio are outright liars. They lie through omission, saying only partial truths and leaving stuff out, and it's imo bad writing when the sole tidbits of background info we do get on both of these characters are outright lies. Even Illyrio's claim that Young Griff is Griff's son is not a complete lie. He simply ommits the fact that Aegon is Connington's foster son.
  7. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    Hmmm, I actually doubt we'll get more on the catspaw. It wasn't that important, just the necessary plot point to drive Catelyn off to KL to make Ned even distrust Robert and for her to capture Tyrion. We know who paid the catspaw, and how Joffrey got the dagger and why (to impress either Cersei or Robert). Yes it was based on POV assumptions, interweaving and speculation, but no need to rehash it. If we ever see anything about it from Bran's POV I doubt it'll be anything more than seeing Joffrey hand the silver and dagger to the catspaw beside the weirwood of Winterfell. And George could have done that in aDwD 2 books after he resolved the issue already in aSoS. I don't see what Bran would gain out of it, nor the future story.
  8. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    Okay, I see your argument. Tyrion points out they could sail by cog to Mereen if he wants to help, the cog that delivered him to Illyrio. Illyrio then explains its already on its way to Asshai, and the perils of a sea voyage during the autumn season: storms and pirates at Stepstones. Of course, Illyrio has plenty of cogs and could have sailed off afterwards, but I don't see why he would go in person to pay off Nyessos himself. He does most of his dealings with known captains of ships, full of spices, tapestries, precious stones, wine. I do think you are possibly correct in pointing out something quite obvious went wrong with the bribery of Nyessos. I think you are suggesting the following scenario: when Illyrio returned from sending Tyrion off, he learned that his ships full of bribery went missing or had been captured, and so he sent fast ships to Volantis to assure the deal and traveled along himself to convince Nyessos he had been in good faith. But since there were many pirates at the Stepstones, he pretended his ship was a pirate ship or he traveled on a pirate ship. And since he used to be a braavo he joined them in their piracy. And so, Quentyn saw Illyrio killed and his rings taken. Am I correct in this interpretation? It's a somewhat conceivable idea, and aDwD is rather subtle, such as Arya's chapter where she learns about the pirates having gotten slaves from north of the Wall, and that this possibly is the info that Tycho knew when he set sail for Eastwatch and why he so easily agreed to lend his ships to the NW to save the wildlings. Arya's chapter seems to come too late for that, but it appears that the orders of some chapters altered between the final edit and the published version, and thus got misplaced in the timeline. Tyrion thinks of Illyrio as fat and immobile, and Illyrio certainly wants Tyrion to think so, but Arya noticed he walked like a waterdancer. And if he washes out the dye out of his hair (or uses green or blue or purple dye) he could blend in with other pirates. However, I would expect a little more evidence from George that this was indeed Illyrio. At the very least I'd expect him to identify the stones of the rings. Even if I'm expecting George to kill him without giving us more information on Illyrio's motives and origin, I still expect him to kill him off with the reader knowing it's Illyrio. And I still find it hard to believe Illyrio would delay his presumed voyage to Volantis and risk his deal with Nyessos by playing at corsair and attack another ship. So, I'm more inclined to believe the passage in Quentyn's chapter serves as a foreshadowing parallel, rather than the actual event. How else are we to ever learn that he's dead? Let's say the Tattered Prince conquers Pentos, either with Selmy, Tyrion or Dany as POV, and one of them visits Illyrio's mansion, we could discover his mansion abandoned or taken by squatters, and even if there still was a servant to tell them that Illyrio had left ages ago for Volantis, that would not settle his fate much. Most readers would keep wondering where Illyrio is until the end of aDoS, never realizing he died in Quentyn's first chapter in aDwD. That's a bit too subtle for me.
  9. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    There's a statue of a young, atheltic handsome man in Illyrio's garden of his mansion. Tyrion sees it in his first chapter when he makes his tour around the mansion, and Illyrio claims it is a likenness made by some michelangelo like famous sculpter who made it when he was 16.
  10. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    Here are some quotes to ponder on First quote is when Tyrion meets Haldon and Duck. It's suggested that Tyrion rides along with Haldon on the same horse. Haldon tests Tyrion's wit and tries to offend him. Then Tyrion asks where whores go. Haldon is not amused whatsoever by this exchange, and makes sure Tyrion rides with Duck, not with Haldon. Notice how Tyrion claims a maester doesn't need a cock, but the Citadel does not accept women to become maesters, only men, and so maesters do need cocks as evidence that they are men. It's then that Duck alerts us that Haldon is only half a maester, leading to the question: why is Haldon only half a maester? Can't be for the lack of known languages, reading, knowledge in math and history, even medicine. Haldon is as good as as any maester we've met so far. The Citadel doesn't approve of those meddling in magic, but Haldon is a perfect example of the student the Citadel would want: rational through and through, even in the face of the impossible. That doesn't leave much options anymore for why Haldon is only half a maester, and thus expelled from the Citadel. She pretended to be a man in order to study, but was found out. This secret about Haldon is not known to perhaps anyone on board the bark, except for Connington perhaps, or perhaps Lemore. Anyhow, Haldon refuses to take the nosy know-it-all Tyrion on the same horse, where he could risk discovering that Haldon has no cock. How do girls pretending to be boys tend to be found out usually? Because of how they pee. Arya was advized to pee away from the men and boys traveling along with Yoren. There is a scene where Haldon pretends to be peeing off the boat like a man. But you may notice some details that Tyrion doesn't notice that reveal Haldon's only faking it. So, Tyrion and Duck had a piss together at the stern. Haldon does it by himself, while Tyrion has his head deep in his writing and not paying much attention. While safely away from Tyrion, Haldon makes a point of getting Tyrion's attention so he notices that Haldon seems to be pissing off the boat. Meanwhile we get this little bit about puffs of wind. Now what should happen if a man pees against the wind? And a man would know not to pee against the wind. But Haldon does and there's no mishap? Well there wouldn't be if he is only pretending to pee. The moment that Tyrion threatens to show his cock and join Haldon's side, Haldon immediately warns off Tyrion to come near and changes the subject to the lie that Tyrion is telling. Now Tyrion has a feeling about Haldon, that he has a personal secret, and he gets Haldon to agree on a bet with the cyvasse to exchange secrets. Haldon reveals Aegon's identity, but it's not the personal secret that Haldon keeps. It is enough though to stop Tyrion from investigating further, though he still wonders at times. Haldon is clean shaven, has ascetic features and long hair tied into a knot behind his head. These are physical features that match a woman's. So, euhm, yeah, Haldon's personal secret is that he's not a man, but a woman. Once you know this, the following remark becomes euhm ironic
  11. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    Except that Tyrion misses stuff too. He's smart, but he considers himself smarter than he often is. That's how people often manage to fool him. He completely misses the many clues that Haldon is a woman for example and he completely was snowed by Sansa. At other times he gets so paranoid that he doesn't believe people who are helping him. George uses suspicion and paranoia in POV to mislead the reader: see Brienne trusting the two hedge knights, but completely distrusting her guide into Crakclaw Point while the man was trustworthy. He does something similar with Tyrion towards characters that readers already suspect of being shady. Varys despises individuals who practice or use magicians. He hates Stannis, but he shows no such hatred for Robert. It's not because Stannis meddles with a sorceress that all Baratheons do. It's not because Egg performed the ritual at Summerhal that Varys expects other Targ descendants to do so. That said, all the people that Varys chose to raise Aegon are rational minds, not sorcery minded. And it should be clear that Varys truly supports Aegon over Dany. ANd then there's cognitive dissonance. Wildfire and dragons and dragon eggs are still material things or creatures, and that could give Varys enough rationalisation to ignore or excuse the magic behind it to create it. Why choose to add it? It serves to show that Illyrio once was a handsome, lean young man with Valyrian like features, and thus can serve as potential evidence that he could father a son like Aegon. Just because Illyrio doesn't need to be Aegon's father, doesn't alter George's choice to plant the idea of Illyrio being Aegon's father in the reader's mind, with the statue as one of those seeds for it. Basically it comes down for you to: "not good enough a motivation for me, I need more, hence insert..."
  12. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    Does he? Illyrio is not lying that Varys and him were two boys in Pentos. And Tyrion himself is wrong about Varys's origin. Tyrion believes it to be Myr, but that's the city where Varys was bought from the mummers to be castrated by the sorcerer. Pycelle claims to Ned that Varys comes from Lys. Tyrion calls Illyrio a liar on Illyrio's suggestion he helps Dany to become master of coins and gain a castle. That is indeed the likely lie. At this point, Tyrion hasn't yet met Griff, nor figured out Griff is "Aegon" several chapters later on the boat. It's only later in the chapter with Illyrio when Griff is mentioned by Haldon that it's clear that Illyrio has a deep regret of not being able to see the boy, and by then we've been given the story of Serra. The statue needs to be Illyrio in order to serve as further suggestion that he is the probable father of Aegon. The statue being Aegon serves no purpose, except with the strange claim that "cherry trees" are dragons and Blackfyres in particular. Anyhow here's the quote you're alluding to. Now, how does Illyrio lie about Varys insofar Tyrion knows (since Tyrion believes Varys to be from Myr, not even knowing about Lys)? Heck, Illyrio even expands on Varys, after he mentioned the statue. The overall lie in that chapter to Tyrion is about "sending you as a gift to help Dany conquer Westeros and Griff is just Griff who has nothing to do with me."
  13. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    I assume the statue to be Illyrio, not Aegon, as that is what Illyrio tells us it to be. Cherries with cream, Illyrio eats while he talks of women. Dany throws white cherries to Xaro when he starts up the wedding suggestions again. And the bride in the Egg story of the tourney is eating cherries while seated in her husband's lap. But I agree that Illyrio knows the throne is bloody business.
  14. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    We already have mounting evidence for the motivation with the scenes we have: opportunistic ambition. Now I know that for many readers this seems too simple, as they have often expressed their dissatisfaction with that as a motive for Illyrio, hence the need to involve Blackfyre ties, just like plenty of readers are dissatisfied with the motivation we got for Joffrey sending a catspaw to kill Bran.
  15. sweetsunray

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    It depends on what you consider Illyrio needs to be most punished for. George has said that he tends to write his characters as being torn between what the heart wants and what the mind considers best (even if it comes from a place of greed). Let us for a moment consider Illyrio to be Aegon's father, with Serra as the mother. At the time of Aegon's birth, Illyrio was already rich and powerful. Even as a widower, he could have lived a satisfactory wealthy life raising his son in Pentos, see him wed, etc... That Illyrio has the innate abilities to love and care for people is revealed in the story on how he stood up for Varys when they were kids, clings to the memory of Serra and is almost heartbrokenly disappointed when he learns he won't be seeing Aegon. In this scenario, Illyrio broke his own heart basically to get a son on the Iron Throne, using the Targ-Baratheon feud opportunistically for his son's imagined benefit (not actually his own benefit). Illyrio sacrificed his own father-son relationship, telling himself he was doing it for Aegon, for all those years. When he takes Tyrion to Aegon, he hopes to indulge himself - to see Aegon off to his journey that he expects to lead to ascension of the IT, as well as gratify his heart and eyes to see his son a grown man. He is explicitly denied this chance on the latter in aDwD. Your scenario would in certain ways be a gratifying punishment, but mostly focuses on punishing Illyrio's ambition and greed. But I think that the "heart" of the matter is that Illyrio is increasingly desiring to see and have some type of relationship with his son. And in that sense, his dying moments of regret at having denied himself the chance to be father to his son in my proposed scenario is devestating all on its own. Either would work, but I suspect that George tries to portray Illyrio's humanity too, and not just that of an over-ambitious man. Denying Illyrio to ever see Aegon again through death would make Illyrio's death scene almost as poignant and sad to the reader as Joffrey clawing at his throat. If Aegon dies before Illyrio, then this shifts the focus entirely to "nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-na your kid died for nothing, evil man". IIRC George does not tend to do that with any of his characters. Tywin gets his due, but never having the incest of his twins confirmed for example, and show us Tywin at his most vulnerable, on the privy, never to witness his legacy crumble by the hands of his corrupted daughter.