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Platypus Rex

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  1. Yeah, I don't see it. Respect for tradition obviously plays no part of the picture. So why would he want it at all? Then I doubt he cares whether it be held by a Dayne either. What could a pansy like him ever want with a sword that big? What would be the point of giving Dawn a darker reputation? Sounds nihilistic. I agree with you that Darkstar is not very likely. He is obviously unworthy, and the tradition says he must be worthy … worthy in the context of being a worthy KNIGHT, which would seem to incorporate the ideals of knighthood. If you're going to discard the tradition, then there is no reason for him to be a Dayne. I already did. There are no Daynes-by-birth available, who are established as characters in the story, and who would be capable of wielding Dawn, and who are worthy of wielding Dawn. That gives us license to consider options that would otherwise seem less likely (if we had other options), such as a "Sword of the Morning" who is not a Dayne-by-Birth, or perhaps not even a Dayne at all. You'd rather consider an unworthy Dayne, merely because his name is "Dayne" (as if the tradition matters at all if you discard the "worthy" part). But that sounds to me like a far more serious mockery of the tradition. That goes hand in hand with your opinion that there is no reason to believe ANYONE will wield Dawn, or become a "Sword of the Morning" (or at least, not a worthy one). But I think there is such foreshadowing. And if you accept that there is reason to suspect there will be a (worthy) Sword of the Morning, then, obviously, there is also reason to believe he might not be a "Dayne-by-Birth".
  2. Right. So his last name is irrelevant. He will get it because he took it, and he will take it because he wants it. Unless your theory is the reason that he wants it is because his last name is Dayne. But from what he said to Myrcella, it certainly does not sound like he wants it … or at least, he does not want whatever it symbolically represents. A sample size of two. If you turn out to be wrong, you will not be able to say that GRRM lied to you. Just admit we don't know. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. Since we don't know, you cannot assume that Darkstar is the only option. Hell, even if one cannot marry into House Dayne, there still could be a dozen other options we don't know about. Why is that clear? Do you have an actual argument other than TWO examples? Anything can happen if you speculate it. But you're giving no reason for this to happen.
  3. It does not matter who would ordinarily make the decision. If your theory was that the sword will be taken by brute force (which I thought it was), then Gerold's last name is irrelevant. Maybe Obarra will take it, and give it to Doran, who will give it to Hotah. Well, we kinda do. The "Sword of the Morning" is supposedly chosen based on merit, and nepotism is rather at odds with the idea of merit-based hiring. It helps reduce the tension if we give ourselves more options in deciding who qualifies as a "Knight of House Dayne". You're the one making assumptions. I merely pointed out a possibility patrilinear naming customs might not apply to the Dornish. "You can't prove that patrilinear naming customs don't apply, therefore they do apply" is an argument from ignorance. She might be. But she is not the Lord/Lady of Starfall. Edric is the Lord of Starfall. Right. Which implies she is merely the Lord's widow and not the reigning Lord/Lady who was the eldest child of the previous Lord. Which is why Edric is Lord of Starfall. And of course, we have no evidence she is alive either. Okay.
  4. What I guess you mean is that there are no Daynes around with the prowess to wield it, so we might as well give it to Gerold, who's only qualification is that he is a total piece of shite, with the demonstrated ability to murder little girls with poisoned blades. Oh yeah, and Arianne thinks he's kinda hot. However, the possibility exists that one can marry into House Dayne, or otherwise become a knight of House Dayne by other methods being born a "Dayne". The Dornish, after all, have different customs. And Alyria Dayne is short one fiancée. Well, if it is going to be taken by force, then Gerold's last name is obviously irrelevant. But of course it is probably irrelevant anyway, as he does not come from the right House Dayne. And if Starfall is now unguarded, it may also be that Dawn is not there any more. How many years and books has it been since GRRM told us Dawn was at Starfall?
  5. Why? Because it subverts expectations? Magic swords are not necessary for murdering children.
  6. The current Lord of Starfall is Edric Dayne, aged 12, formerly of the Brotherhood Without Banners, whereabouts currently unknown. So next time you see a tall warrior with blue eyes, carrying a large magic sword, and with a shooting star on his shield, traveling in the company of a shy 12-year old boy, don't assume it is Brienne and Pod.
  7. You have to be a True Knight, obviously. It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it. I guess poor Sandor is going to have to leave the Quiet Isle after all.
  8. Platypus Rex

    Sandor and Brienne Parallels

    Hazarding a guess, I would say the purpose is some kind of illusion, deception, or fake out. My reason is that the parallels seem somewhat superficial, in that they depend on very different people or situations, that have been set up so that they can be described in identical language. Suppose, for instance, that we were to encounter one character under circumstances that leads to the initial assumption, that it is another character. Then this character starts referring to incidents in his/her past. It might then seem that the initial mistake had been confirmed. Especially if seen from the POV of a character that remembers the wrong incidents. Hmm. Well, I have noticed another set of curious parallels involving Edric Dayne and Podrick Payne: I am a very shy boy, about 12 years old, who has lost his father. I was last seen somewhere in the Riverlands, with the Brotherhood Without Banners. My first name ends (phonetically) in "...dric". My last name ends in "...ayne". I have a one-syllable nickname ending in "...d." I would probably recognize Dornish heraldry, if I saw it. [1] I have served as a squire to a Lord. I loyally stood by my lord in a battle at a river where fiery missiles flew. I saved my injured lord by pulling him from a river. My lord has a price on his head. But my lord is now gone. Pod is an associate of Brienne. But Ned is not, as far as we know, an associate of Sandor. But if it is true that all these weird parallels revolve around Brienne and Sandor, perhaps Sandor and Edric WILL be associates, in the not too distant future. After all, Edric no longer seems to be with the Brotherhood Without Banners; so I guess he's due to show up somewhere else soon enough. So, based on the foregoing, perhaps we can anticipate a Sandor/Edric connection. And, going even further out of a limb, perhaps we can anticipate the following additional Brienne/Sandor parallels: My coat of arms features a shooting star against a purple backdrop. [2] I wield a big sword that was formerly known as "Ice", but now has a different name.[3] That's all I got, at least for now …. [1] Podrick, because he was trained in Dornish heraldry by Tyrion. Edric, because he is a Dornish Lordling. [2] This refers to the arms of House Dayne, as well as Dunk's shield. Dunk's shield is described in the text as having a sunset backdrop, but in artist's illustrations, this generally darkens to purple at the spot where the shooting star appears, for contrast. [3] The "Ice" we know was melted down to make two swords, one being Brienne's blade "Oathkeeper". But Ned Stark's "Ice" is not the original "Ice", having been forged only 400 years ago. This has led some fans to speculate that the sword "Dawn" is in fact the original "Ice".
  9. Platypus Rex

    Sandor and Brienne Parallels

    Thanks. I threw that in.
  10. Platypus Rex

    Sandor and Brienne Parallels

    I added another curious parallel from the Bitterbridge/Hand tourneys: At this same tournament, I seized an opportunity to fight, in hand to hand combat, a fierce landed knight, against whom I bore a bitter grudge. This grudge related to a hurt I sustained years ago, when still a child. This refers to Red Ronnet (for Brienne at Bitterbridge) or to Gregor (for Sandor, at the Hand's Tourney).
  11. I would imagine a dragon would swoop down and eat all 3 of them.
  12. Platypus Rex

    Sandor and Brienne Parallels

    I'm not a big believer in Brienne as a descendant of Dunk (which I know most consider to be heresy). I'm not sure whether GRRM means us to compare Brienne and Dunk. But then again, I'm not sure he intends us to compare Brienne and Sandor either. Assuming these Brienne/Sandor parallels mean anything, it may be that he does not intend us to notice whatever it is he is setting up. One could, of course, try to devise an analogous list of parallels between Brienne and Dunk, following the same set of rules (a set of First Person statements, which would be equally true if spoken by either Brienne or Dunk). I suppose you could play the game with any set of two characters. I doubt it would be nearly as impressive as the list here, but maybe I'm wrong. I have not yet seriously tried. If you COULD do an equally impressive list of parallels for ANY two characters, it would show this to be meaningless exercise. But I think my list has gone a bit beyond that. Or am I just deluding myself with my own creative ability to use identical language to describe vastly different situations? Sure. But a direct parallel between Brienne and Dunk would seem more impressive than one between Brienne and any person Dunk happened to run into. How could I hammer this into a statement that would be equally true if spoken by (say) Brienne and Dunk? "At one time during my career, someone in my vicitity, not necessarily excluding me, sustained an injury to the cheek". I would imagine most warriors could say the same.
  13. Platypus Rex

    How did the Starks aquire the sword ICE?

    Perhaps "Dawn" is the original "Ice".
  14. Platypus Rex

    Sandor and Brienne Parallels

    I added some more details to the Arya/Podrick parallel (9th entry). There was more there than I thought. Specifically, Sandor/Brienne captured Arya/Podrick outside a ruin during a rainstorm ….
  15. Platypus Rex

    Sandor and Brienne Parallels

    I tried pursuing this a little more. We can say that Brienne "buried" Dick Crabb. Shagwell may have dug the grave, but Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Pod filled it up again. And Brienne was in charge of the entire operation Nimble Dick was killed by Shagwell, the Bloody Mummer/Brave Companion. The Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle was digging a grave for Brother Clement, who died of infection after being maimed by Rorge, who has also been a "Brave Companion/Bloody Mummer". A search for "Clement" on the "Search of Ice and Fire", leads to two other hits. One in AFFC where, Dick Crabb lists a "Clement" Crabb, among those who either fought for Rhaegar at the Trident, or who was on the Kingsguard, or both. We can rule out "both" as all Kingsguard members at the time of the Battle of the Trident are accounted for. The other hit is in the WORLD book, which mentions a Ser Clement Crabb as being on the Kingsguard 200+ years ago. It is unclear if Nimble Dick was referring to that Clement Crabb or a more recent one. The Wiki assumes the former. However, Brother Clement was 48 years old when he died, making him old enough to have fought alongside Rhaegar at the Trident. Also, the Elder Brother says that many join the Quiet Isle to escape horrors, apparently including horrors of war. But if Brother Clement is a Crabb (a big if) we could add: After poor Crabb, my companion, was slain by a Bloody Mummer, I buried him in a grave in a quiet isolated place by the sea, near a cave and among walls of un-mortared stone. But "Crabb" would be cheating in Sandor's case. So if I add such an entry, I would have to be: After my poor companion was slain by a Bloody Mummer, I buried him in a grave in a quiet isolated place by the sea, near a cave and among walls of un-mortared stone. Of course, it is also cheating to assume the gravedigger is Sandor. But there is almost universal agreement among fans on this point.
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