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Shmedricko

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  1. Shmedricko

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    George said back in 2014 that D&D correctly guessed the identity of Jon's mother: Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow’s mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.
 I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they’d read the text. Did they get it right?
 They answered correctly. Some readers, I think, would also ask who Jon Snow’s father truly is, even though Jon was always claimed to be Ned Stark’s bastard son.
 [Martin smiles] On this I shall not speak. I shall maintain my enigmatic silence, until I get to it in the books. -George R.R. Martin: The Complete Rolling Stone Interview, June 13, 2014
  2. Shmedricko

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    A few Reddit posts which I think are pretty insightful: 1) How Bran's chapter sets up a far more compelling conclusion than the show gave us, by /u/feldman10 - Explaining how Bran sentencing Jon to the Night's Watch for murdering Daenerys could be a lot more satisfying in the books, by relating it to Bran's very first chapter in the series. Excerpt: 2) A certain character's final decision will be much darker in the books, by /u/YezenIRL - Theorizing that Jon will kill Dany primarily to protect his family, fulfilling the treason for love; and that, unbeknownst to Jon, Dany will be pregnant with his child when he does this. Excerpt: So not only were we getting foreshadowing about Daenerys possibly having children there at the end, but we were also getting foreshadowing that Jon would have children. Red herring? maybe. Or maybe Daenerys was originally going to be pregnant when Jon killed her, but the writers decided it was unnecessarily bleak and controversial, so instead they wrote it out. [...] Though what Jon does seems to be the right thing in light of Dany's tyranny, Daenerys being pregnant when Jon chooses his family over her would reassert the reality that Daenerys is also Jon's family. And by betraying her, even if for a good reason, is kinslaying in every sense of the word. tldr 2; When Jon kills Daenerys, she will be (unbeknownst to him) pregnant with his child. 3) The Curse of Harrenhal: How the location of the Great Council explains the ending in the books, by /u/YezenIRL - Theorizing that the Great Council in the books will be held on the Isle of Faces, and that Bran will take Harrenhal as his seat (which Bran actually has a claim to through Catelyn's mother Minisa Whent). Excerpt: For those who have been wondering how the books would ever get to a scenario where a Great Council is even considering making a crippled boy the king, I have three words for you. Location. Location. Location. While the show puts the Great Council at the Dragonpit and has Bran as the abdicated little brother of the Lady of Winterfell, the odds will likely be shifted dramatically in Bran's favor in the books. Because if the Great Council is happening just beneath Harrenhal, then Bran holds a claim to the very land on which the council is taking place. And that's not even mentioning the massive Old Gods connection giving Bran the home field advantage. Sure (assuming he survives) Edmure Tully comes before Bran i the line of succesion, but alas Edmure will probably be passed over in the books just as he was on the show. Poor Edmure never gets a break. And that really shouldn't come as a big surprise. While Edmure is the Lord of Riverrun, Brandon Stark is the heir to The North and the Riverlands. Which is about half the land in Westeros. And yes, just as happened in the show, it will likely be Tyrion who gives the speech which gets the Lords of Westeros to put aside their reservations about crowning a crippled boy. This is set up pretty early in the story by Tyrion's soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things. And yes, the power of stories will probably in some way be a part of Tyron's speech in the books too. D&D failed to set it up, but people have to realize that whenever something feels totally out of left field on the show, it's either because it's complete crowd pleasing fanservice, or because it's from the books and they failed to set it up (for example, that one time they called Jon "The White Wolf" or Bran being called "Bran the Broken.") Tyrion's speech was clearly not fanservice. It's more likely to be conceptually from the books. Beyond that, this serves as a callback to the Shakespeare line that likely inspired the ending for GRRM. This is the famous opening line in Shakespeare's play about Richard III, and the War of the Roses. In this soliloquy, the titular Richard III is proclaiming that the time of hardship is over, and good times are ahead, now that King Edward IV has re-ascended to the throne. Of course, what follows this are revealed to be not so good times, but I digress. We don't know what the future holds for Westeros, and we can assume that peace will not last forever. GRRM has blatantly acknowledged that Tyrion is in many ways inspired by Richard III. The winter of our discontent seems referenced by the winter of the Long Night, but also the general period of war the story encompasses. "Summer" is the name of Bran's direwolf, and the Yorks are the Starks so King Brandon Stark is the sun/son of York. Thus Martin will likely end his story much like Shakespeare began his. By hailing to the son of Stark. The rise of the Fischer King Brandon Stark to the throne will also likely represent the breaking of the curse of Harrenhal. Not only because making a greenseer the king makes up for the Weirwoods destroyed in Harrenhal's construction, but also because the establishment of an elective monarchy makes it so that no one House will ever rule over Harrenhal. Instead the Hall of Kings will pass from one ruler to the next, each chosen at the Isle of Faces, in the sight of Gods and Men. tldr; Bran the Broken will be chosen as King at the Isle of Faces, and he will rule from Harrenhal, thereby breaking the curse and establishing a new seat of power. Bonus Point! As a bonus, I wanna throw out that this is already being set up in the books by King Robb's crown, ownership of which the books have been tracking since the Red Wedding. The crown is currently in the position of Lady Stoneheart, who went out of her way to get it back. Robb's crown will likely eventually make it's way to Bran, and will eventually be placed on his head by Sansa or Arya at his coronation.
  3. Shmedricko

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    D&D indicated that Stannis burning Shireen and Hold the Door came from GRRM, but that does not mean those are the only things from GRRM that they have used on the show. They referenced those two moments in particular because those were two out of three things GRRM told them that made them go, "holy shit." David Benioff teased that the third holy shit moment "is from the very end," so mentioning all that was a way to get people speculating about the finale. D&D don't want to do that with every single thing they include, though, especially now that it's the final season, because that would be directly spoiling the rest of Martin's stated plans for the books. The best that anyone can do is to analyze all the available information — the content of the books and show, quotes from GRRM, D&D, and other people with inside knowledge, any other pertinent data — and then make decisions about what they think is likely to be the same between the two mediums (should the rest of the books be published), and what they think is likely to be different. This process is no different than how people speculated about the books before the show existed: they collected relevant information — details from the books, potential clues, themes, statements GRRM made outside the series, etc. — and then made judgements about what they thought was likely to happen in the story. The show, and statements made by people involved in the show, is just another body of information to analyze and interpret.
  4. Shmedricko

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    For what it's worth, D&D said during the "Inside the Episode" segment that only Targaryens can ride dragons: Realistically, I would have to take Benioff's subsequent comment about Jon being slow on the uptake as nothing more than a joke, however; because if Jon and/or Dany know that only Targaryens can ride dragons, but have no inkling that Jon is a Targaryen, then him trying to casually mount a dragon is crazy. So my interpretation right now is that in the show dragons can indeed only be ridden by Targaryens, but that Jon and Dany don't know about this. Someone like Varys might know, though, and bring it up in a future episode; they made a point of showing Varys, Tyrion, and Davos' reactions when Jon flew right in front of them. (I imagine the Night King killing and resurrecting a dragon as his thrall is an exception to the "only Targaryens" rule.) I'm pretty sure Cersei will be killed by the same person in both the books and the show (I think that person is almost certainly Jaime). I suspect that they eliminated the line about the valonqar from Maggy's prophecy just so Cersei's fate isn't as obvious to show-only viewers. I'm still somewhat surprised that GRRM wrote what appears to be such a clear instance of foreshadowing for the death of a major character. He obscures it a bit by referencing "valonqar" a few times without the full context, and only later clarifying that it means "little brother." But an actor saying something on-screen during a 60-minute episode sticks in a person's mind more than a few lines scattered throughout hundreds of pages in a book, so for that reason I think the showrunners didn't want to have Maggy essentially say, "You will be strangled by your little brother." (I know some fans have interpreted this prophecy in increasingly vague and obscure ways, so that basically any younger sibling can be the valonqar, male or female (or Arya wearing Tyrion or Jaime's face), but I doubt those theories are true. I think the prophecy's fulfillment has to be personal to Cersei, limiting the candidates to Tyrion and Jaime. And since Cersei is convinced the valonqar is Tyrion, she would be blindsided if it's actually Jaime, who is younger than her by mere moments.) But you could be right, and I will reanalyze my position when I see what the show does with Cersei and Jaime.
  5. Shmedricko

    Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

    1) I see this supposed asymmetry brought up every so often, but I don't think it's an issue at all. Symbolism is not mathematics. Jon can represent ice when compared to Dany's fire, fire when compared to the White Walkers' ice, and ice & fire by himself, all at the same time. For the books, Martin indicated that Jon and Dany representing ice and fire, respectively, is one of multiple possible meanings for the title: (There are more quotes where Martin alludes to the title having multiple meanings, including another in that same interview.) And for the show, it's very clear that the union of Jon and Dany is seen as a union of ice and fire: 2) Here is /u/Mr_Freeload's description of one of Jon and Dany's scenes in the Season 8 premiere (although note that some of it could be incomplete, inaccurate, and/or editorialized). The part that I've bolded might be foreshadowing:
  6. Shmedricko

    Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

    In Season 6 Episode 4, Melisandre explicitly says that Jon is the prince that was promised: And then in the very next episode, Season 6 Episode 5, Kinvara explicitly says that Daenerys is the one who was promised: (Both proclamations are followed by references to Melisandre being previously wrong about the prophecy.) Unless one believes that the show would casually state the true identity of the prince that was promised well before the last season, Jon and Dany are not viable candidates for the prophecy. But their child could be. When Dany asks if Melisandre believes the prophecy refers to her, Melisandre merely says "Prophecies are dangerous things," and that she believes both Dany and Jon have a role to play. When Jon arrives at Dragonstone in the next episode, Melisandre says: In the leaked Preliminary Outline for Season 7, Melisandre said something even more specific during her meeting with Dany, which was perhaps cut for being too revealing: And then in the Season 7 finale, Jon and Dany have sex and presumably conceive a child, based on the foreshadowing for that throughout the season. If this theory is true, the hints for both Jon and Dany being the prince that was promised (or in the show's case, direct statements to that effect) would not be negated, just reframed: it's not one or both of them that fulfills the prophecy, but a child created through their union. The "prince or princess" part also works well with the prophecy referring to a yet-to-be-born child, because the child could be male or female -- and we may never learn which it is, either because the child is sacrificed in the womb, or because the child is born and that information is simply withheld from the audience, whether the child is sacrificed or survives. (Alternatively, we could find out the sex of the child, but the point is that it doesn't matter.) TL;DR: Jon and Dany's child could be the prince/princess that was promised.
  7. Shmedricko

    What is your theory on The Others?

    That's one reason why I think it'd be appropriate if the last Targaryens ended up living in the far north at the conclusion of the series (or at least headed there once): from the Lands of the Long Summer to the Lands of Always Winter. (It's specifically mentioned that Aenar Targaryen had holdings in the Lands of the Long Summer before he sold them and moved to Dragonstone.) Of course, if the seasons return to normal at the end of the series it might not be "Always Winter" in those lands anymore, but they would still be the lands which used to bear that name. For example, one way this could happen is that Jon and Dany fly to the heart of winter on dragonback and do whatever they need to do there to help stop the Others / end the Long Night. But if their dragon(s) die in the process then it may not be feasible for them to make the journey back on foot, given the distance, terrain, and weather (even if conditions improve with the changing of the seasons). Combined with personal reasons, like perhaps valuing a simpler life more than a position in royal society, Jon and Dany might just decide to stay up there and live out the rest of their days in the distant north, similar to the free folk, maybe even inhabiting some structures left behind by the Others, if any exist. To the rest of the realm, Jon and Dany would be missing. Some might presume they died, while others may send out search parties to look for them, but there's no guarantee they would be found so far north. This passage could foreshadow Jon, at least, going missing in the north at the end of the series: Jon and Dany could go down in legend as the last Targaryens who flew north and sacrificed themselves to end the Long Night. But some might whisper they survived -- "The King and Queen Beyond the Wall" -- and that one day they or their descendants will return... It almost sounds like one could write a song about it.
  8. Yep, here is the quote: The great wealth of the westerlands, of course, stems primarily from their gold and silver mines. The veins of ore run wide and deep, and there are mines, even now, that have been delved for a thousand years and more and are yet to be emptied. Lomas Longstrider reports that, even in far Asshai-by-the-Shadow, there were merchants who asked him if it was true that the "Lion Lord" lived in a palace of solid gold and that crofters collected a wealth of gold simply by plowing their fields. The gold of the west has traveled far, and the maesters know there are no mines in all the world as rich as those of Casterly Rock. (TWOIAF - The Westerlands)
  9. Shmedricko

    Jon Snow's Real Name

    I made a post on Reddit over a year ago about Jon's birth name being Aemon which may be of interest to this thread: (Spoilers Extended) His True Name: A Detailed Analysis I don't want to repeat it all here, because it's quite long, but the post is divided into four parts: Jon Doe - Establishing what is known about the name Jon, and why there is reason to believe he was given another name before that Prince Aemon - Potential clues that the name was Aemon Targaryen (there are still a few possible hints I haven't added to the post, including new ones from F&B) Future Significance - The possibility that Jon could adopt Aemon (or any Targaryen name) as his regnal name, but still go by Jon with certain people The Show - A quick note about GOT and its future (I made the post shortly before Season 7). If you don't want to read about GOT then just stop once you reach "The Show" header. I am no longer "almost certain" that Jon's birth name is Aemon, however. I'm now torn between Aemon and Aegon, and have started to lean towards Aegon. @J. Stargaryen covered many of the key points regarding the Aegon possibility above, and there are more Aegon quotes which could have relevant double meanings about Jon (a comparable amount to the Aemon quotes, I think, which is why I'm torn), such as Aemon giving Jon the same advice he gave his brother Aegon when they parted for the last time: Or this new quote from Fire & Blood: Quoting and slightly editing another comment I made on Reddit: I've also considered the possibility that GRRM may have originally planned for Aemon, or kept his options somewhat open on Jon's true name (being the gardener that he is), and only later decided that Aegon would work best to compare and contrast with Young Griff being introduced in ADWD. Ultimately, I don't think it matters too much. Both names can work. If GRRM goes with Aegon, then the Aegon hints will take on additional meaning, and the Aemon hints will be relegated to generic Targaryen foreshadowing. If GRRM goes with Aemon, then the Aemon hints will take on additional meaning, and the Aegon hints will be relegated to generic Targaryen foreshadowing. But basically, I think it's a toss-up between Aegon and Aemon (and at the moment I'm leaning towards Aegon). It's been pointed out before, but this line is interesting because while Jon thought that after literally being given a sword, giving one's sword is also a symbol for swearing fealty, and the Iron Throne is made of swords. So that line could foreshadow lots of men fighting for/swearing loyalty to Jon because he's Rhaegar's son (and Jon accepting that), but Jon still remembering Ned as his father.
  10. Cannibal's black colouring and green eyes could be an allusion to the factions of the Dance, even though he didn't really play a role in the conflict. Criston Cole, who switched from the blacks to the greens and helped start the war as the Kingmaker, had green eyes and black hair ("coal black," just like the Cannibal, and also a pun on his own name). The tinfoil theory, though, is that: Cannibal sharing Shaggydog's colouring + Shaggydog being on Skagos + Skagos being associated with cannibals + Skagos meaning "stone" in the Old Tongue + Cannibal vanishing after the Dance = Cannibal is still alive on Skagos and rousing him will "wake dragons out stone"/"wake the [great] stone dragon" (This isn't a new theory. The only new bit is Cannibal having green eyes, reinforcing the connection to Shaggydog, as I don't think that information was known before Fire & Blood.) I think the stronger connection is that eyes melting and running down one's cheeks/face is associated multiple times with being roasted by dragonfire: This is supporting evidence that one or more of Dany's dragons will fulfill the role of Lightbringer in the story. Specifically, I think the last quote supports the theory that the Lightbringer prophecy will be fulfilled when Dany's dragon(s) burn down King's Landing and everyone in it -- as a last resort to prevent the Others from adding them all to their army of wights -- especially when combined with this new quote a few pages earlier in F&B: A "dark horse with burning eyes" could represent a dragon, specifically the black-scaled Drogon. The only other time "burning eyes" appear is in a description of Viserion and Rhaegal: "The dragons craned their necks around, gazing at them with burning eyes." (Daenerys VIII, ADWD) A "scourge of fire in his hand" connects with this line in TPATQ/a little earlier in F&B, when Hugh and Ulf set fire to Tumbleton with their dragons Vermithor and Silverwing: "The Two Betrayers scourged the town with whips of flame from one end to the other." (Rhaenyra Triumphant) And "Can you hear the sound of burning hooves? He comes! He comes!!" reminds me of the Stallion Who Mounts the World: "The prince is riding!" "He is riding!" "The thunder of his hooves!" (Daenerys V, AGOT) And the popular theory is that Dany riding Drogon will fulfill that prophecy. (It should be noted that Dany doesn't necessarily need to be responsible for the burning of King's Landing in this theory, even if she's riding Drogon, although she may be seen as responsible. One version of the theory is that Bran will skinchange into Drogon to burn King's Landing, potentially making him Azor Ahai reborn, with Drogon as his burning sword Lightbringer.)
  11. Shmedricko

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    After impregnating himself, it is known: Tyrion gave a sigh. "But do go on, I pray you. I love a good tale." "And well you might, since you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine's. Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye, and lion's claws. Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's." "Life would be much simpler if men could fuck themselves, don't you agree? And I can think of a few times when claws and teeth might have proved useful. Even so, I begin to see the nature of your complaint." (Tyrion V, ASOS)
  12. A woman named Saera in a Lysene pleasure garden brings to mind Illyrio's second wife Serra, who he claimed to have found "in a Lysene pillow house." The fact that Saera still dressed as a member of the Faith could be a hint that Serra is still alive as the robed Septa Lemore -- in which case Young Griff would probably be her son with Illyrio, explaining the real reason she's involved in the Aegon plan, and her stretch marks. Saera: "she oft entertained her admirers still garbed as a novice of the Faith" Lemore: Saera: "there were evidently a good many Lyseni who took pleasure in ravishing innocent young women who had taken vows of chastity, even when the innocence was feigned" Lemore: Saera also had a son who came from Essos for the Great Council with "bags of gold and a dwarf elephant" to press his claim to the Iron Throne, which is vaguely reminiscent of Young Griff with his Golden Company and war elephants. Since I'm on the topic, I wanted to mention this potential clue from ADWD as well, because although it's been pointed out before in other threads, I think it's one of the better ones given how little there is to go on regarding Lemore: In the same paragraph where Tyrion wonders about Lemore's identity, motivation, and relationship to Young Griff, Lemore has changed into "garb more befitting the wife (or daughter) of a prosperous merchant," and Serra was the wife of Illyrio, a prosperous merchant.
  13. 1) Shortly after Queen Alyssa dies from childbirth complications in a tower, this piece of imagery caught my eye: Blue wings beating against a red dawn sky... Compare that to the end of Ned's tower of joy dream: Blue roses blowing across a blood-streaked sky... Moreover, Dreamfyre's wings are specified to be "pale blue," which is how the roses associated with Lyanna are described on multiple other occasions. Both passages also mention "Dawn," the rose petals are described as a "storm," and Dreamfyre descended at "Storm's End." 2) I noticed some similarities between the death of Prince Aemon Targaryen, heir to the Iron Throne, and the stabbing of Jon Snow: Jon is also injured in the throat/neck before this, although it's from being slashed rather than stabbed. Side note: A second parallel to Aemon's death is that of Jacaerys Velaryon, another Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne who was killed by a shot through the neck from a Myrish crossbowman: Although the passage about Jace is not new, also appearing in TPATQ, I see some echoes to Jon's stabbing as well, albeit more faint ones. It's the third quarrel that causes Jace to sink into the sea, just as it's the third dagger that causes Jon to fall into the snow. There are potential smoke and salt references in both cases: smoking wreckage and the salty sea for Jace, a smoking wound and salty tears for Jon. And one account of the death of Jace's dragon Vermax is that a grapnel tore a long gash "in the dragon's belly" (Jon was stabbed in the belly) and then he "went down smoking and screaming." There are a host of other quotes where the wounds of dragons are described as smoking, but that connection is already well known from ADWD and TPATQ.
  14. Shmedricko

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    1) A little bit of irony and foreshadowing I enjoyed: 2) I thought it was a neat reversal to have three horn blasts signal the coming of a dragon, rather than the Others. The cold, windy weather helps reinforce this connection, as does Alysanne (who would later visit the Wall) experiencing a chilly reaction to the sound. The young Targaryen princelings Daenerys and Aemon being amongst those to hear the ominous horn is unlikely to be a coincidence, I think, given Dany and Jon's presumed involvement in the looming conflict of the main series (Jon possibly being a Targaryen named Aemon or Aegon). If there is some foreshadowing here (besides the Horn of Winter bringing down the Wall), it could be that the Others will obtain a dragon of their own, perhaps an ice dragon or by killing and resurrecting one of Dany's dragons.
  15. Shmedricko

    Dany’s Shivers

    Alysanne's Daenerys dying of the Shivers reminded of Dany's "wake the dragon" dream in AGOT: And later on in Fire & Blood it says "The Shivers took Daenerys at the age of six," which reminded me of the phrase "The Others take you."
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