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R2D

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    Queen of the North

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  1. R2D

    ASOIAF characters + Greek Mythology

    Are you kidding me? Cersei is literally Hera, right down to killing Robert's (Zeus) bastards.
  2. R2D

    Gender relations in Westeros

    Is this really true? When Sigorn married Alys Karstark, Rhaegar Frey made a comment that "Marriage will soften her. A firm hand and a quiet word". Sigorn is a free folk and Alys heir to House Karstark, but Rhaegar thinks he can still control her. Humfrey Wagstaff was also a knight and castellan, lower in rank than Brienne, heir to House Tarth, but he expected her to obey him. The Faith also is pretty misogynistic, and affords certain liberties to husbands, and I think commoners would follow the teachings of the Faith as well. GRRM said in an interview that Cersei does love Jaime, I can't find it right now though. Yeah, perhaps they're engaging in some form of rape play, like Qarl and Asha. Asha was fighting Qarl off while they were having sex and to an outsider it would really look like she's getting raped, but we're in her POV so we know that this is a game of theirs and she's into it, it's foreplay for them, and their sex is consensual.
  3. R2D

    Gender relations in Westeros

    That's true. I am generalizing - I don't think we really know the norm here. Yeah, maybe But I actually think that a lot of marriages could have an "understanding" where the husband was allowed to have mistresses and the wife would get his true born kids, if they didn't become loving partners like Ned and Cat. So the woman doesn't get a fulfilling sex love, but at least she gets all the power and privileges that come with being a noble. This is all wishful thinking though of course. As for domestic abuse, Cersei is a very fiery and headstrong woman - most women would accept their place in the system and not challenge their husband's authority. The times when we see Robert hit her is when she reproaches him or insults him. Most women would lay their heads low and if their husband wasn't a drunk or a sadistic brute it would probably prevent them from getting abused. (Again, all wishful thinking). And I hope it doesn't seem like I'm victim blaming Cersei here, that's not what I'm going for here at all. Robert had no right to hit her no matter what she said to him. Yeah we have to keep in mind this is a very violent society. I mean they watch people fight to the death for entertainment. And a few more quotes which really hammer in that a husband has to be obeyed and has a right to chastise his wife. A Game of Thrones, Sansa VI: A Storm Of Swords, Sansa III: (It's weird that pledging to obey your husband isn't in the marriage vows since you're required to obey him by law). A Storm Of Swords, Jaime III: A Feast For Crows, Brienne II: So even if the wife complained - they would probably get a lecture from their father or brothers on how they have to be a better wife and listen to their husband. I could certainly see Hoster doing that, or Tywin.
  4. R2D

    Gender relations in Westeros

    I feel they're a very flawed couple. Jaime has no understanding of consent: A Feast for Crows (Cersei IV): (There's also the Sept scene and when Bran meets them in the tower, where Cersei is resisting and saying no but Jaime pushes her into sex anyway). And Cersei manipulates him, and she does love him, but she puts her ambitions before him. I didn't mean a new High Septon, but they could have gone to another Septon. Plus the Tyrells had dumped Sansa the moment they couldn't marry her to Willas. I just feel like calling it "Stockholm Syndrome" is a bit much. Stockholm syndrome is a very specific situation where you are a captive with no recourse who comes to love your captor because you have no other choice. A noblewoman would still have her friends and family, and most husbands probably wouldn't be the type to force themselves on their unwilling wife and batter them like Robert. Most of these women aren't marrying for love, they're doing it for power. They don't desire companionship, they want heirs and lands. Though if they can become good friends or come to fall in love with their husbands, that's also a good thing. Yeah, Jeyne Arryn must have been a woman of very strong character (or her Regent was an accommodating or easy going man).
  5. R2D

    A closer look at Roslin Frey

    That was the nobility, and most weren't consummated until later. Still, the age difference is creepy is all I'm saying.
  6. R2D

    A closer look at Roslin Frey

    That's actually a misconception. Child marriages weren't common, most were in their late teens or twenties.
  7. R2D

    Gender relations in Westeros

    Re: being able to stay unmarried, I agree it depends on the people and personalities in question. For example, Jaeherys who was the epitome of the wise and kind king still tried to arrange a marriage for the delicate Princess Daella at the age of 13, and put his foot down that she had to marry by 16. Viserra was also shipped off at 15 to marry a man old enough to be her father, even though it wasn't politically necessary. Viserra most probably wouldn't want to in such a marriage - so why didn't she stop it? The outside coercion applied by her father and society made it hard for her to do so.
  8. R2D

    Gender relations in Westeros

    I think this is exaggerating it. Nobles can get out of marriages - it just means they'll probably be disowned and lose all their privileges. They could stay in the woods and hunt deer and pick berries if they wanted to -but they won't keep their rich and lavish lifestyle, so they choose not to. And most men aren't devoid of empathy. Even though they had a right to be terrible and brutal to their wives, most probably weren't. Marrying for love is a very modern concept, but both sides had an incentive to make the marriage work, as it would end up being better for both of them. I know this conflicts my opinion before where I said marriage would be "basically sex slavery", but I've changed my views a bit.
  9. R2D

    Gender relations in Westeros

    Jaime and Cersei....loving? That's the first time I've heard that. Or they could have twisted the High Septon's arm until he accepted, or gotten another one. I don't think it's fair to say Sansa had a choice. She was outnumbered - in enemy territory, just like Jon. Jon also technically had a choice - to try to persuade Ygritte not to sell him out, or to try to prove he had broken his oaths in another way, or to stab Ygritte and make a run for it, or to wait until they were in the cave to knock her out - but those aren't really choices at all. If you mean Malora Hightower, she was described as mad, which could have affected her ability to get any husbands. Asha - She was heir of the Iron Islands, basically raised as a boy. Her father wasn't looking for suitors. Brienne - She rejected everyone of her suitors, and her father accepted that she wanted to be a warrior instead. If Selwyn Tarth was less kindly, who knows what would have happened? Jeyne Arryn - Her father and brothers died, and she was Lady of the Vale, so there was no one to force her to marry. Didn't Aegon IV have like 16 other children? It wasn't important for Shiera to marry, which is probably why Daeron II or Aerys I didn't make any matches for her. That's because Egg allowed them to. But this is because Doran allowed her to refuse. I'll agree - there is a choice - but if the consequences of the refusal range from destroying your relationship with your father, bringing shame to your family, creating hatred between the two houses, being cast out, etc those choices don't mean much. It might not be as extreme as getting killed, but you aren't exactly "free" to choose either. As for Oberyn, it could be there was no great need, or they were waiting for the right deal. And paramours are an official position in Dorne - and bastards have very little reduction in status. Yeah I agree with that, Tywin had no real power - but as can be seen domineering fathers will force and succeed in marrying their daughters to men they do not want to marry. Lysa could have technically refused as well, but the pressure was too great. Robert does know he hurts Cersei - Cersei complained to him and he was guilty and ashamed. But I'm veering into rape apologist territory so I'll stop here. My point is that the mindsets of the perpetrators were very different. I agree that there's certainly a case to be made that Ned was raped (by modern standards) during the early stages of his marriage. We don't know Jon Arryn's thoughts on bedding Lysa - but we know that Lysa hated it, so I don't know if we can say that he was raped too. The difference is, that yes, couples would have to sleep together a few times for the purpose of creating heirs, so we could definitely say there's mutual rape going on if both aren't very into it. But after that, there's no need to sleep together, but the husband can still force his wife into sex - as we see with Robert and Cersei. It would be in very unique situations where the wife can force the husband into sex - if she's significantly older than him, or physically stronger and more powerful - and the husband also has all the legal power in the marriage, the wife does not. I don't think it's ever stated in the books that a wife can claim his rights as a wife the same way a husband can. Actually, Tywin took away the rights of the peasants to marry for love when he became Hand. Now they can only marry with the approval of their lord. Good examples on how the system differs between the peasants and the nobility. But with regards to your innkeeper example - that could be because of Sharna's sheer force of personality, not because of any equitable share of power between the husband and wife in peasant marriages. The person with less power can still control the one with more power, if they are of weak character, or if they have a low conflict personality. Jon/Ygritte and Dany/Drogo are relationships which parallel each other. Both Jon and Dany were in situations where they were effectively raped, but they both came to love Ygritte and Drogo, and they introduced them to a different people and different way of life (The wildlings for Jon, the Dothraki for Dany) and widened their perspectives. However Ygritte and Drogo aren't the "true" loves of either Jon or Dany (they both have paragraphs in the books where they both describe themselves as being lonely even though their S/O was right next to them), instead Jon and Ygritte will meet and become that for each other.
  10. R2D

    Gender relations in Westeros

    Cersei told Sansa she had no choice to marry Tyrion, I'm sure if Sansa said no she would be forced to anyway. The lack of spinsters in ASOIAF seems to imply women can't really remain unmarried. Shiera Seastar as far as I know didn't have her father making any betrothals for her - it was other men who proposed to her, so she was free to refuse them. She was also a bastard so there was no pressure to marry for her. As for Arianne, wasn't that because Doran was saving her for Viserys and didn't want to get her a suitable partner? So he chooses old men that he knows she will reject and whom he allows her to reject. If Tywin pressed the issue, we don't know what would have happened. Cersei was greatly upset so she seems to think it's a real possibility she would be married off. Still, that is just an assumption, and does not mean Ygritte was working with Mance to enlist Jon into the wildlings. The difference is Ygritte thinks Jon would enjoy it because he "stole" her. Drogo and Robert don't think that. And both of them were not willing to abandon their way of life for each other. It's a flawed relationship, I'll agree to that.
  11. R2D

    Saddest chapters in ASOIAF

    Ok, we can't agree on everything so I'm leaving it. Sorry about my insulting remarks before.
  12. R2D

    Saddest chapters in ASOIAF

    She makes an assumption that Margaery is more impacted by the death than Loras, as she offers no condolences to Loras, an understandable assumption to make, but an assumption nonetheless. Loras not being able to mourn publicly and having to watch people offer their sympathies to Margaery is because of homophobia, which Sansa's unknowing remarks contribute to .
  13. R2D

    Saddest chapters in ASOIAF

    No, because that situation in question does not make assumptions about the person's character or sexuality.
  14. R2D

    Saddest chapters in ASOIAF

    No, it's still homophobia if the person in question doesn't know they're being homophobic.
  15. R2D

    Gender relations in Westeros

    Can a woman really refuse though? Lyanna couldn't get out of her betrothal with Robert even though she didn't want to marry him, Lysa was forcibly married off to Jon Arryn, later we even see Tywin trying to override Cersei and marry her off to Willas even though she was Regent. And sooner or later she will have to be married. And I think Ygritte genuinely wanted to save Jon, not lead him into a trap. She steps in to save Jon from Mance by telling him they were sleeping together. I think a big difference between Ygritte and marital rapists like Robert and Drogo is that yes, all of them think what they're doing is acceptable because of their society, but Robert and Drogo know that they're harming their partners but do it anyway, while Ygritte because of wildling culture, (where part of marriage is the game of chasing and capturing your partner) assumes that Jon would be into it as much as her and doesn't understand the coercive nature of her advances.
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