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  1. corbon

    Marrying for Love in Westeros?

    Its not. Marrying against the patriarchs wishes is. For the nobility in particular, marriage is an opportunity to secure something for the family. Happiness for the individual is not the priority - they are expected to make the best of their life. Thats the price of all that wealth and privilege. As noted, he did. Only if they are assholes or particularly incompatible. For most people living in an arranged marriage society marriage they understand that marriage is something you work at, and that happiness comes from fulfillment, which comes more from working together on something and give and take than from sated desires. They also know that the love that comes from togetherness is more lasting and truer than the love that comes from chemistry. We in the west tend to forget these things. It is no wonder that our 'successful' marriages rates are dropping. Both sides have success and failures of course. Assholes are assholes in whatever culture they are in. Well, perhaps you were making a parody thread after all?
  2. corbon

    Tyrion and Sansa

    You are welcome. In that old thread, it jumped from pg20 to page 23-and-closed overnight, from my timezone perspective, so I had no opportunity to reply to a number of things that were said. It may be more fruitful now, when emotions are more relaxed after time away. Or it may just ramp them up again. I don't know. You are free to choose not to reopen further. I don't want to make replies to some of the things said at the end there, precisely because they were said in a different atmosphere. And I feel that if I reply to them here now, I'm reopening that atmosphere with them, which may not be to the benefit of discourse.
  3. corbon

    Tyrion and Sansa

    I don't think you've thought that thought all the way through. Perhaps I'm wrong and you can explain another meaning. I agree its a charade a byplay for his benefit, because they really do want him to marry Sansa. But what does it actually mean? I read it as indicating that there is still a possible alternative should he really wish to take a stand - indeed, its that very alternative possibility that removes the power of his potential stand. Should Tyrion defy his father and refuse to marry Sansa, Tywin can't actually make him the same way he could when he was 13. Tywin does actually need a compliant bridegroom for this ploy of state to succeed. But if Tyrion takes such a stand, he just double loses, because Sansa can be just given to another Lannister, and no doubt treated worse than he would treat her. Thats the true subtext of the byplay - what else is its purpose? The final direct order only has power because of the byplay. This is simply not true, or at least, it is not true that she's saying it as a courtesy only. We have already been in Sansa's own head where she acknowledged to herself in her thoughts that Tyrion had been kind to her in the past (saved her from a beating) and was not as bad as the other Lannisters. Indeed, we are in full agreement. Thats why we have changed the word to assent, rather than consent, because consent is confusing since it both exists outwardly from her words and actions, and cannot exist inwardly due to her situation, at the same time. You might say its an attempt to be as clear as possible in a difficult and complex situation. However its not true that she has no options, no choices. Tyrion gives her possibilities. She rejects them - I believe due more to the psychological hold over her established by Cersei and Joffrey than anything else - but none-the-less, Tyrion is bound morally to accept her choices when he gives them to her - given that neither of them have the power to offer choices she'd truly prefer.
  4. corbon

    Tyrion and Sansa

    Yeah, its not really easy to follow, sorry, but its would be a tremendous amount of work to rehash it here - and there are erros and mistakes made on both sides not worth rehashing too. Most of it is in originally in a third thread, locked after 23 pages, now back around pg7ish. It was argued in that thread that Tyrion was a rapist, a molester, an abuser of Sansa. Quotes from the text showed a very very different narrative to what was being put forth. In the Tysha thread the subject of responsibilities - blame for lack of a better word - was again raised. There are distinct similarities between the Tywin/Tyrion/Tysha story and the Lannister hegemony/Tyrion/Sansa story. the discussion there naturally started to veer to similar territories as before and the question was raised as to why there appeared to be a different attitude on my part (and @Lyanna<3Rhaegar). Not wishing to derail that thread, I opened this one. The simple answer, BTW (not that there is any such thing as a simple answer in these complicated moral situations!) is that I/we believe that Tyrion made choices in the Tysha saga which were ultimately selfish and led to great harm, and did not make such selfish choices that led to harm in the Sansa saga. In fact the text shows that in the Sansa saga he kept her wellbeing as his highest (relative) priority - even above his own. I'd generally agree here. However, you say Tyrion behaves "less badly" than other bridegrooms might have. My question to you is, where exactly did Tyrion behave badly toward Sansa on this occasion? Agreed. But the fact remains, she assented (we use that word because by a modern definition he could not truly consent in that situation) repeatedly. They bot had a hard duty to do. Hers harder than his, absolutely, but not one either of them wanted. Its the best of bad options for her, and Tyrion is very cognisant of this I think - its shows in a number of quotes from both her and hims. But he does everything in his power to both improve it for her, give her the opportunity to make it less bad, and even give her power over him. Given the situation already exists, and is outside the control of either of them, is there anything more he could do for her than what he did - especially given that she made conscious choices along the way which he morally is obliged to respect?
  5. corbon

    R + L = J or N + A = J

    R+L =J The reasons are too numerous to bother with. Not necessarily proven conclusively, but overwhelming volume and variation of evidence. NOT N+A = Jon 1. All the relatively limited 'evidence' suggesting this pairing turns out to be fundamentally flawed, without exception. 2. Ned never ever thinks about Ashara. His thoughts around bastards, promises and the like, always turn to Lyanna. 3. Ned + Ashara has no reason at all for failing as a pairing, or for keeping it a mystery. There is no reason for Ned to hide it from Catelyn or anyone else and poison his marriage and family life, there is no danger to Jon, no reason to not tell him or anyone else anyone freely and at least let him grow up knowing his origins. 4. There's no future payoff for N+A in terms of the story moving forward. 5. N+A=J has timeline complications. Jon was conceived within a few months either side of Ned's marriage to Catelyn - definitely after the rebellion started at the very least. While Ashara cannot be positively ruled out as visiting Ned and the rebel army during the war, there ought to be some clues given to us if she did. It would be an unusual and extremely noteworthy thing for Elia's former handmaid and Arthur Dayne's sister to be visiting the rebel army and sleep with one of its generals. 6. Barristan's evidence (and he's the only one we've heard anything about her from who was actually around her at significant times, and more, playing close attention to her as he was crushing on her secretly) is actively un-Ned for Ashara. Barristan clearly holds Ned in high regard, clearly crushes on Ashara, clearly believes Ashara to have been disgraced - and looked to Stark - and to have died in despair after losing her honour and her bastard child. Ned Stark being responsible for her fate is incompatible with Barristan's respect for him. Plus, you have the mud-man/fire-man musing that Barristan thinks all young girls are the same - Ashara is one of just two young girls we know he has relevant experience around, so she must be included in his thinking of "all" young girls. And Ned is the quintessential mud man, the opposite of a fire man, almost exactly matching the qualities Dany names in Quentyn that define mud man, and the qualities Barristan thinks of defining it. 7. Robert, Ned's best friend, closest companion and the man who knew him best back in that time, doesn't consider the possibility that Ned+ Ashara was a thing. 8. N+A doesn't match Ned's character. Not now, and from the evidence of others (mostly Robert), not then. N+A does serve one useful purpose. It helps inform the rest of us about the level of analytical competence of its proponents.
  6. corbon

    Tyrion and Sansa

    Agreed. Tyrion holds that power. But not just Tyrion. The "hold" has been established by Cersei and Joffrey, not by Tyrion - actually in much the same way, though more subtley, that Ramsay established his "hold" over Reek/Theon. The difference is that Tyrion makes every effort to give every element of that power that he personally holds, back to Sansa. She refuses to take up that power, because of the effect of the psychological hold Cersei and Joffrey have established over her, but thats not Tyrion's fault. Its some small element hers* (it is her choice after all) and a large element Cersei and Joffrey's (they built that hold that prevents her). All he can do is offer it, and he does so repeatedly. Towards the end, he even offers her independent power over him personally, by making himself absolutely vulnerable. *now, to clarify, I understand that trying to explain that to her might cause more damage than good, at least until she has reached a certain stage of healing. I'm not doing that, and I'm not advocating that. That would, I think, be a true clinical situation and textbook correct use of the terminology "victim blaming", if she was not ready for that level of discussion. But she's not here, heck she's not even real. We can discuss it accurately, safely, without causing damage to her. Anyone else viewing, who may be in a position to suffer damage from this discussion is clearly in need of healing first, before they come here. Their presence, and any potential harm that ensures, is their own responsibility, not ours. And harm goes many ways. That includes to the people on the other side of this. Who have been accused of molestation or rape but who in truth have done nothing wrong. An inability to discuss these sensitive issues because someone else might wander in of their own accord and suffer harm, harms those people. Oh we are fully aware and in agreement that Tyrion knew, or at least believed, that Sansa didn't want this. We just believe that Tyrion is morally obliged to honour Sansa's choices, not what he thinks her desires are. Because people can and do choose things they don't want, for many and varied reasons. To not honour her choices would be to take away what little agency she has. To say she matters so little as a human being that he reserves even the right to choose what is best for her. In this case, Sansa's choices actually made sense to Tyrion. Given the situation she was in, marriage to a Lannister was simply happening. She can;t avoid that fate. She can choose (because Tyrion gave her that power) which Lannister she marries. Tyrion at least had been kind to her, as she recognised herself and enunciated to him. And he knew he would continue to be kind to her. Agreed. Not at all. The difference between Tywin/Tyrion(Tysha) and Tyrion/Sansa is that Tywin never gave Tyrion any power at all, no choices, no respect, no indication that he mattered as a person (as opposed to just a Lannister), whereas Tyrion gave everything he could to Sansa. So Tyrion's obedience signals nothing. He had no choices. But Sansa's 'obedience' is very different, She was given repeated options to choose a different path and every single time clearly enunciated a choice to stay on the same course. some quotes Bear in mind that acknowledging what the text says and how people act does not constitute blaming Sansa for her choices. this discussion is primarily about the responsibility borne by Tyrion for what happened that night. 1. Its Cersei (and Tywin) that is actually forcing this. And its wedded and bedded (because consummation matters, legally) 2. Sansa did actually physically try to avoid this. Tyrion wasn't present though. 3. Sansa is persuaded to be brave 4. Sansa herself thinks that Tyrion is not so bad as the rest of them, he saved her before - this proves Tyrion's belief that he would not be so bad for her as other Lannisters is in fact shared by her. 5. Tyrion pays her the respect of apologising for the situation... 6. ... and explaining why it has happened despite it not being his choice 7. Tyrion gives Sansa the power to change course, to marry someone else. 8. Sansa acknowledges his kindness 9. But chooses (thanks in large part to Cersei and Joffrey's "hold") to stay on course for wedding and bedding with Tyrion. I won't bother quoting it but immediately after this she acknowledges his kindness again. 10. She initiates their duty - consummation, sex. She's the one moving forward here, not him 11. He deflects 12. She initiates again 13. He deflects again 14. Tyrion finally accepts, reluctantly, but gives her the power again - if it please her. Perhaps this is courtesy only, perhaps not. What would have happened if she said "it does not please me"? I don't know. I do know that he gave her a chance to choose, or at least signal her choice, again. 15. And again, she chooses to stay the course. 16. Yet again, she changes the subject back toward the forthcoming sex. Her push not his. 17. He puts up an objection (I believe he is talking about her emotional status as she is clearly written to be physically matured ahead of her years). This gives her yet another opportunity to change course, to choose. 18. She shoots down the objection, chooses to stay the same course. 19. Tyrion gives her power by exposing his own vulnerabiity and fear to her. 20a+b. Sansa acknowledges to herself what he has given her and takes enough of that power on to feel pity on him. Get that? Sansa felt pity for Tyrion in this situation. That means she felt a kind of power over him, or a least a sense of superiority, in some small way. He gave her that power, that opportunity, deliberately. It backfired on him though. Such is life. 21. Sansa has shot down every choice to change course, every deflection, every bit of power he gave her. He's run out of deflections, prevarications, she's even shot down (in effect) his final offer to let him be good to her. We know why, we understand her position, we don't blame her for those things. He's bitter, sure. I read that as bitter at the situation, that she couldn't meet him, not blaming her for not doing so. I think any other reading jars badly against all the subtext before and after. 22. But from Tyrion's POV, he's tried everything he could, and he's run out of options. So he's resigned to the duty they both have to do, reluctantly. 23. This was claimed to be a creepy salacious stare from Tyrion and an attempt to perve at her nakedness. I think thats a terrible reading of the situation, utterly ignoring the context of all Tyrion has said and done leading up to and immediately after this. I think the stare is not pervy in nature. I think he's utterly saddened by what he thought he almost had, could have had had Sansa chosen otherwise (but be reminded, he gave her that choice, and respected her choice even though it cost him). He's staring at her in defeat IMO, still reluctant to move to the final duty. 24. Again, I don't think this is pervy. I think its a choice for both of them to face the hard duty full on. If he had let her hide under the bedclothes, joined her hiding under them, it could so easily have gone differently. I think he did her a great favour here by making her face the final task (even if with her eyes shut!) and I think it plays an important role in the stoppage that follows. 25. Its a hand on her breast. Its not a grope, a fondle. its a careful next step. They are heading towards sex, have been the entire day. Its a requirement for both of them, to consummate the marriage. I can't think what else he's supposed to do there. She doesn't want this, but neither does he. At every step along the way through the day and evening she's actively assented towards this, even when he gave her opportunities to make different choices. But even here, at this late stage, he's being respectful, cautious. Because he knows she doesn't want this. He is, in effect, giving her yet another final opportunity to change course. 26. And this time, for the first time, she does change course. Her body overpowers her will, her conscious choice, and displays unequivocally her un-assent. 27. And his response is immediate and absolute. He accepts her un-assent absolutely and unreservedly. What more could he do?
  7. corbon

    Tyrion and Sansa

    This is a continuation of an older topic surrounding Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night, because its come up again in another thread and clearly there is unfinished business... This discussion involves complicated moral issues. Its easy to express one-self inaccurately in these areas, and its gonna happen - we are all human and prone to mistakes. So please, be very very very careful, when assuming the meaning of what you read. You may have read it wrong, or the writer may have expressed themselves poorly. Please don't jump all over any ideas hastily just because you find them abhorent. You might be right. You are more likely to be wrong. Some previous posts from the current thread on a different subject for a little context - imperfectly because I'm not going to bother breaking down the split replies and answers etc. You can go to the Tysha thread (pgs 5-8 mostly) to view the conversation before it moved here if you are interested in finer detail. I'll start my reply after this post
  8. corbon

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    Thanks. I guess I'm cynical to some extent even of septon meribald. It should be fine to examine that responsibility regardless. Indeed and indeed. And I think I always indicated taking into account such things. You might be right too. This is not something I'd reject, though I think that if it were true we'd have more powerful evidence for it. Haha, nice point. Show, don't tell. The reader gets to interpret the story through their own lens - which is why we all have different beliefs about the same set of words. To be honest, its not really that interesting, because, as you say, we just don't have enough information to do it properly. I objected originally to an attempt (not necessarily even deliberate) to shut down someone else's thoughts in a way that I believe is ultimately (if not deliberately) dishonest and immoral. I felt comfortable calling it out because I respect and trust the people making that error that we would be able to talk through any ensuing discussion - parsing the finer points of moral reasoning in tricky subjects seems to be interesting to me (I don't really know why, or at least haven't thought about it) - and that they wouldn't hold to any feeling of 'insult' they got from me calling it out. I sort of sidestepped the discussion for a while because you were unintentionally metaphorically begging me to escalate and I didn't think that was a good idea for either of us. Oh we both think he had responsibility for his actions, we just disagree with you on the context of those actions and what they meant. I understand. I just don't agree on whether what he did was wrong. But here is not the right place to discuss that. Nor am I sure there is much benefit to be had in doing so as I don't think either sides have changed outlooks. Thats a part of it, but only a part. Indeed. I don;t think its that we don't agree that Tyrion knew she didn't want it - we agree on that. But there is more to it than that. But again, thats for a different place, and we've said what can be said already. I pretty much do. The physical actions at that time, indeed, 0% responsibility, or as near to it as makes no difference, The action I think he's 'responsible' for, holds some element of 'blame' for, is choosing to 'set up house' with Tysha when he knew it would end badly (thats why he tried to hide it), knew his father was famously ruthless and brutal, and knew Tysha was utterly unprotected. Agreed, mostly. You almost dragged me in there. Look, if I answer this part we're really going back there!
  9. corbon

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    No. Please read properly what I said and don't shoot off a reply without considering what I actually said first. I have no need to provide such quotes because I have not argued that Tyrion had any reason to expect this reaction. You are consistently railing against positions I haven't actually taken, if you read carefully through a detailed and nuanced conversation where two of us are trying to express difficult and complicated ideas. Tyrion is 13. Yes he's a child, but he's also only 2 years from being a man. Maturation is an individual thing, and people mature at different rates, but people in this world (and in ours at a similar development stage) mature earlier than they do now. And I didn't say she should have, or could have. But she should have, IMO, been able to understand that it was unlikely to turn out well. Based on general knowledge of Tywin's well known history (eg Reynes of Castamere). And maybe not too. My own position is that she likely didn't have the information she should have had. The discussion about whether any responsibility or 'blame' falls on her shoulders is predicated on her perhaps (because its a reasonable possibility) having 'enough' information but ignoring it for either teenage hormone reasons or (mis)calculated risk/reward reasons. I think that even a crofter's daughter understands the lessons of the Reynes of Castamere. Whether she's able to put that together with Tyrion and Jaime who rescued her, is another thing entirely. Maybe she should have, maybe she wasn't equipped to. Most likely even if she was equipped to, she neglected those scary thoughts in favour of the enjoyable present. As teenagers are won't to do. Which doesn't absolve them, but does lessen their level of responsibility by some amount. We are allowed to disagree on the point of how much she probably knew - or rather, assume different levels as a basis of discussion. Yes, very much so. And in that, I think the responsibility falls in him. In thinking this way he neglected to consider Tysha and what might happen to her. Yep. Sorry. It wasn't meant condescendingly. I just finished giving a detailed explanation of why the cry of "victim shaming" is an appalling one and then you jump in and exactly prove what I just said. I'm being very restrained here, its not intended to be condescending. Allow me to quote myself. I think there is more variation of understanding amongst the peasants than Meribold suggests. He's 'teaching' Brienne IIRC, so presenting a simplified point of view to her. I think the peasants understand the lessons of the Reynes of Castamere well enough. And I'm sure Tywin made sure its been well and truly played to death throughout the Westlands. An isolated crofters daughter - its possible she hasn't heard, or considered, it. But equally possible she has. But we generally agree that Tysha probably didn't know what she should have known.
  10. corbon

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    You really think he didn't know that his father was utterly ruthless? That the Tarbeck and Reynes stories, or the way his father treated his grandfather's mistress, had no meaning? I think there are more than enough clues that Tyrion, even at 13, understood that his father could be utterly, utterly ruthless. I think Tyrion thought hat his position as Tywin's son would save him from anything truly awful, but he wasn't in this alone, was he. And Tysha was utterly vulnerable. And I think his guilt indicates that Tyrion knew all of this, even as he tried not to think about it or admit it to himself. Indeed. And thats why his 'blame' or 'responsibility, is lessened in such a situation. Its not absolved entirely though. He knew, underneath, that Tywin was ruthless, and deadly, and Tysha had no protection at all. He didn't have to rationalise it out. In fact, he likely avoided doing exactly that. And thats exactly why he's guilty. Its also why he blames himself more than anyone else would. But I didn't say that he should have known what would happen. In fact I explicitly said that he probably could not have envisaged this particular result. I suggested he should have known something bad was likely to happen, and that Tysha would be particularly vulnerable. And i think he did know that, he just irresponsibly avoided thinking about it. Oh my. I think its best I practice restraint here. You should practice paying better attention. You might notice that I said that was it possible that Tysha was genuinely ignorant enough to not even comprehend that a bad ending was likely. I just don't believe thats likely. I have a somewhat different view of how much the commoners know I guess. I think they know very well that marrying a lordling's brat never ends well for the commoner. I think they know very well that Lord Tywin Lannister is particularly ruthless and fearsome. I think they've heard the Reynes of Castamere many times and understand its messages. I'll give a 13 year old crofter's girl the benefit of the doubt that she may be genuinely ignorant through isolation - if the croft was isolated enough she may have been unusually ignorant. But I won't assume it automatically. I think its most likely that she, like Tyrion, just was in the moment, and avoided thinking about scary futures, no matter how likely. A child too, when all's said and done.
  11. corbon

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    Post #31 on pg2 You effectively asked for an expansion in your reply #34. I think that is that your expansion adjusted your focus unfairly to Tyrion ad Tysha alone, effectively negating the explicit original assignation of blame to Tywin. Unfairly. Yes, I saw it as such. And if you can do it, one is generally careful, reasoned, responsible, how much easier for those less casual. Agreed. You didn't use the term anyway. My feeling is that the term is almost always used in a dishonest way, and because that dishonesty isn't challenged enough it becomes a thoughtless accident by people who don't actually intend or even realise the intellectual dishonesty they have engaged in. I have a very high regard for the person who used it this time. I am certain they did not intend any dishonesty of any sort. I hope they are not offended by my comments - there is a high chance they have or will be. But my regard for that particular person extends to believing they have the capacity to truly understand my intent in engaging on this, and respect that, whether they agree or not. Me either. But its important to be careful that one is disagreeing with an actual expressed opinion. I think you made the same mistake as 'victim blaming' but to a lesser extent, because you are more careful. Thats why I quoted the original post you responded to where the very first sentence apportioned blame to Tywin (and the Lannisters). Yeah I know. I could see it was a mistake on your part, and would've just ignored it but I guess that the actual "victim blaming" post pushed my buttons. Hey, its no easier for me. My attempts to explain feel just as clumsy an improperly expressed as the original thing I'm arguing against, in some ways. I wonder if perhaps that's why (partly) no one ever stands up against it - because its a very difficult think to explain clearly. Exactly. Except the painful truth is that it partly is "brought on" by those actions. Or at least, the chance of it happening is increased - so it may or may not have been 'brought on' by those actions (ie happened when it wouldn't otherwise), depending on variables that are impossible to analyse accurately. Actually, they did. I just rephrased it by adding the perhaps. Which is actually redundant because 'could say' is not an absolute anyway. Agreed I don't think so. The 'perhaps' is redundant, merely emphasising because the non-absolute in 'could' appeared to have been lost. "have their own elements of responsibility" is really no different than "share some blame" in actual meaning. Again, I merely rephrased to make more clear that actual meaning of the words, since something very different was being argued against. All I did was break down the original statement, I think, not change its meaning significantly. In part I think its the natural reluctance for the word 'blame', which I changed to responsibility. But as I said, if there is responsibility, then surely an element of blame follows? I would appreciate anyone else sticking their nose in here if they have a more precisely appropriate word, btw. I refuse to shy away from "responsibility -> (some) blame" just because its uncomfortable using the word blame. But i'm more than happy to if a more appropriate word can be shown. Really? Take out the horror element of the actual result. Tysha should have known better. Not did know better. Should have. And yes, although we are talking about the gang rape event, we are also talking generally here, about any of a range of possible results from the secret marriage, not just the exact specific one that eventuated. She should have known, giving Tywin's status, past deeds, and reputation (not to mention that Tyrion needed to bribe a septon to get the marriage performed), that this could end very badly indeed for her. Probably. The poster's actual response? An uncertain "I think so". Not definitive. I have to agree with him. She should have known that things could turn out very, very badly. Up to or beyond gang-rape. I doubt she did know. I don't know if she even had the appropriate information available to her for one thing, and very much I doubt she was capable of processing it properly, really thinking this through with her brain, for another. The same for Tyrion really, except I am sure he did have the appropriate information available, as his guilt demonstrates. Again, as I see it, this is not just speaking directly to the gang rape but to any of a range of possible results. And I agree with you that he did not, could not, have envisaged this particular result. He certainly should have envisaged a possible result where Tysha was dead, for example. He knows how little regard Tywin has for those who get in his way, highborn or lowborn. I think so too. Probably because I took care to emphasise that and make it extra clear. Possibly because we have discussed similarly very tricky sorts of things in some depth so you understand in some way where I'm coming from and therefore don't leave assumptions that conflict with that understanding un-examined? Agreed, agreed and agreed. But he should have expected Tysha would be very severely punished. much more severely than he would. I think he hold s a significant degree of responsibility for that - she was severely punished because of his conscious choices - and he knows it (ETA: and knew it was possible before he made those choices), and thats why he feels so guilty. Which, of course, doesn't lessen Tywin's blame in the slightest.
  12. corbon

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    And no one said or implied that it did. Thats why I object, intellectually, to the use of the term "victim shaming" (which was not by you, but is common in current popular culture). It makes this direct implication that someone did suggest that a right was given to rob, in this example. Which is intellectually dishonest, because no such suggestion was made. Thats why I object morally to the term "victim shaming". Because it shouts a moral negativity toward the original statement which is based entirely upon a lie. It is in fact the accuser who is acting immorally. Ethically I object because it is an attempt at intimidation. It shuts down an argument by a lie without offering any counter argument. It may actually be appropriate, in certain conversations to use the term "victim shaming". But I don't think I've ever seen it used when someone is attempting to shame a victim by blaming them for what happened. It is always used shut down a valid point that victims may have made deleterious choices which contribute to an event (without transferring blame from the actor to the victim) and to absolve a victim of any responsibility for their own choices. Agreed. And, as I said, I think this is where Tyrion's guilt comes from. Because he knew it would end badly, but misjudged how badly. His choice resulted in the gang rape of Tysha, even though he did not anticipate that result. And good people, empathetic people, which I think Tyrion is (for all his flaws and failures) tend to blame themselves more than they should, rather than less. It does, and it does not. If you hold responsibility for a bad event, then what is the result of that responsibility if not blame or fault? The difference is that its not absolute 'blame' or 'fault' for the event happening, its limited 'blame' or 'fault' for choices that led to being in a position for the event to happen. And that limited 'quantity' can't usually be quantified. But it can often be relativised. If I get mugged at midday in a quiet suburban street, I hold considerably less responsibility (IMO) than if I get mugged at 2am in an inner city alleyway. The mugger is still 100% responsible in both situations though. Further, apportioning that blame or fault (which we can never do accurately anyway, as previously discussed) is not transferring the blame or fault from the perpetrator to the victim. Its not a case of 100%-0% becomes 98%-2%. Its a case of 100%-0% becomes 100% for and 2% - or whatever factor is our feeble and inaccurate best judgement. In the end, the point is not to calculate numbers or relativity. The point is to acknowledge that victims too, are responsible in part at least for the fruits of their choices. Its not saying to the guy, " if you dance naked through a drunken hen party, its your fault you got groped". Its saying "if you don't want to get groped, make the responsible choice for your own actions of not dancing naked through the drunken hen party, even if you want to". It doesn't matter that you should be able to dance naked through the drunken hen party without being groped, its simply a fact that there are bad actors in the world, and your choices make a difference in what happens to you. And the point of that is for people to try understand and learn so they make better choices themselves in future situations. Yeah, although I think the point of no responsibility disappears pretty quickly. But its like an exponential curve - there's a long, long flat start at close to zero before things start escalating, responsibility-wise. Agreed. That is exactly what was said. There was no assertion that Tyrion "brought this on himself" (which equates to complete blame AFAICT) by the poster you were discussing with. He outright stated that Tywin was to blame. He merely pointed out that Tyrion and Tysha should have known better, which is not an apportioning of blame, but an acknowledgement of elements of responsibility. Tyrion I believe, did know better. Thats why he feels so guilty. Tysha, its impossible to judge. On balance of probabilities I'd suggest she ought to have known better, but possibly did not. Heck, I'm not even clear (and don't think its important enough to review) if she knew Tyrion was Lord Tywin Lannister's son (though given Jaime was also there, its hard to see how she couldn't - but, who is to say for sure how much a poor crofter's daughter might or might not be informed?) Agreed. Agreed. I do think he understood that it could go that badly. I doubt he could even imagine exactly how it did end up, but I'm sure he knew Tywin held absolute power over life and death and more. I just don't think he imagined it would go that badly. He miscalculated horribly, hence the guilt. Agreed. Agreed.
  13. corbon

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    The way you interpret her response says even more about you. And I guess this response says things about me too. This is the real world. Leave the sexism out of the conversation. This is the real world. Leave the racism out of the conversation. This is the real world. Leave the whatever-ophobia out of the conversation. And yet, you didn't identify your race or orientation. In the real world, truth matters.
  14. corbon

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    And yet, true. Its not the whole story though. But putting yourself in risky situations is on you. You may not be to blame for the exact thing that happens, but you are responsible for your own decisions that increase the chance of bad things happening. That does not transfer "blame" from the actor to the victim. Its not a zero sum game. The actor is responsible for the actions, but the 'victim' is also be responsible for their choices, actions, that increased their own risk factor. "Victimhood" is not an absolver. It is morally and intellectually dishonest to act as though it is. How much "blame" goes to the victim due to their choices is always an indecipherable game. We can't know because we can't accurately foresee all the eventualities and that goes as much before the events as after - so not only can we not accurately apportion risk-blame, the person taking the risk didn't necessarily have the correct factors in their own risk-analysis either, so their decisions can be objectively 'wrong' in hindsight but subjectively 'right' in inaccurate foresight. Certainly though, its considerably less than the blame for acting. And indeed, that was the actual definitive statement that you originally responded too. Tywin (and the Lannisters) is to blame. But you focused on the acknowledgement that perhaps ("one could say") Tyrion and Tysha have their own elements of responsibility. Frankly, I think Tyrion does bear some 'blame' - not for the act itself (that was forced), but that it happened at all. He knew it would end badly. Thats why he tried to hide the marriage, which was always a futile act. Thats why he feels guilty. He made a bad risk analysis and decided to enjoy the fruits as long as he could, hoping the punishment wouldn't happen (he knew it would) or be too unbearable (I'm sure he knew it might). He miscalculated badly, hence the guilt. Plus, Tysha bore the brunt of his miscalculation, exponentially expanding his guilt factor. Tysha I think is less likely to fully understand the situation. We don't know how much she was aware of, how much she understood. We don't know if she incorrectly factored risk elements or was simply unaware of them. Its possible she thought that this could end well. Its likely she underestimated the risk factor of it ending badly. Its also possible that she knew there was some risk, but took the risk anyway due to the potential reward. If so, that would be on her (not that it would be worth much, in comparison). Last point. Hormonal teenagers are notoriously bad at risk estimation. Due to hormones and unformed brains and stuff. Not to mention simple inexperience. That lessens the 'blame' factor for them, but does not absolve it. Well, one thing is right there. Using the phrase "victim blaming" is wrong on so many levels. Intellectual, certainly. Moral, in my opinion. Ethical, again in my opinion. There are probably more levels its wrong on too.
  15. corbon

    How did Tarbeck Hall fall so quickly?

    Thats a lie. The text says that Tywin sent men at arms forward with grappling hooks, ladders and battering rams. The fighting was less than an hour. As the main gates were smashed by the ram, two other gates were opened from within. The Lannisters swarmed through. Nothing says that no Lannisters had entered the castle before the gate was smashed. In fact it explicitly mentions that the men-at-arms Tywin sent forward carried tools specifically for entering the castle without using the gates! You've just made that up. The text does not say so. Anyway, its irrelevant. We aren't talking a 'significant force'. We are talking the Lannister men who assaulted the walls with grappling hooks and ladders, probably fought their way over the walls - or perhaps the defenders couldn't cover the full length of the walls, who knows or cares - and some of which may have managed to take and hold a couple of gatehouses long enough to open the gates. They didn't do any more than that, become a 'significant force' inside the walls, because their first priority is to get the gates open for their fellow soldiers, and at that point the battle is over, at least in terms of the narrative. Riiight. So the men at arms with grappling hooks and ladders were just carrying them to impede themselves as they waiting patiently for the ram to break the gates? I guess you are ascribing incredible incompetence to Tywin instead? Except it wasn't over. The result was now a foregone conclusion, but there was more fighting still. Those who fought were put to the sword. And Tion the Red was cut down (ie died in h-t-h fighting) in the fighting at the main gates. But the gates have only just been opened and you're claiming the fighting is over. Its a pretty straightforward battle description. An overwhelming force attacks dispirited defenders, swarms them over the walls and opens the gates and the defenders get cut down, only those who fled being spared. There is nothing at all out of the ordinary in this description.