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corbon

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  1. corbon

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    It was such a magnificent start too, the Catelyn example of how in those times there were often deeper things communicated and that they did look for those things. ETA: This, for example, is why I hang around and listen even when I think there are hugely flawed arguments being presented. Because you never know when or where the next striking point will come from. And people who think differently are more likely to make them than people who think the same. I still think that doesn't apply so much to quips and casual conversation, but its certainly a striking point regarding letters and gifts and such.
  2. corbon

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    I think this is an extraordinarily good point. And excellently backed up by the Catelyn example. Thank you. I absolutely agree. And I think many of them leapt to, or came to, different (and almost all wrong) conclusions. I don't agree with this focus. It was Lyanna, who led him to this. The recollection of her words, led to Robert's bastard Mya, and the parallel with Robert's bastard Barra, whom he'd just visited. He'd promised bastard Barra would not go wanting Recalling the promise to care for a bastard brings up Jon's face, and then to the treatment of bastards. One plea leads to the memory of another, similar plea. Lets look at the actual passage Ned's not thinking of marriage vows. Its explicit he's thinking of his promises to Lyanna, nothing to do with marriage. Except that the vows that were brought to mind were his vows to Lyanna, not Catelyn. Jon's face is bought to mind as the direct response to a promise about caring for a bastard - not his bastard, a plea from a mother to care for someone else's bastard, and promises by him to do so. This is clear from the parts you cut out of the quote. Riding through the rainy night s not a new paragraph, isolated, later in time. Its the same paragraph, a continuation of him thinking over the meeting he'd just had. And its his promise to care for someone else's bastard that triggers Jon Snow's face. Ned's just been at a brothel, to save Robert's casual leavings, a bastard. During which he was reminded of his promises to Lyanna, saving a different man's bastard. There's a stark contrast between Rhaegar and Robert. And the next thought shows that this is why its come up. Did Rhaegar frequent brothels? He thought not. I don;t think a casual conversation has the same level of import, or depth, as do carefully considered written letters and gifts. If so, its funny its never come up anywhere else... No, this is just a reference to the open secret that Robert frequents brothels and many bastards. Which does come up in many other places. But has to be kept 'secret' because Cersei's pride makes it dangerous to acknowledge. Cigar. So what I'm seeing is... no parallels at all. the numbers don't match (many vs 4 against 7 vs 3), the weather doesn't match, the locale doesn't match, the sides don't match, the verbals don't match or sync in any way, the results don't match... what actually matches??? Not remotely close. Never mind the reasons for the war, which don;t actually involve Lyanna directly, this is supposed to be about the fight at the ToJ. I'm giving up at this point, it just gets more tortuous and less parallel from here. Yep.
  3. corbon

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    Haha. Because if anything, I'm the anti-heretic, though I'm certainly not anti-heresy (just anti bad arguments). My thinking is 'plain', logical, non-mystical as much as is possible, though I don't deny the mysticism aspect of the series and world entirely, obviously. I like hanging out here because there are more interesting thoughts, of types that don't occur to me, than in the main forum. I don't agree with that many of them, but I do get at least to consider them, expand my understanding, learn about aspects and patterns that I couldn't possibly do on my own. I don;t really feel like I have anything to contribute as a basis for discussion. Its not you, its me. Heh, thanks, but no doubt I'll decline politely again. I'm a lieutenant, not a captain. Not that its about being in charge, but I do better following other thoughts than starting originals of my own. I don;t actually recall ever starting any thread, though its possible. 99.9% boring compared to the ideas usually coming out here. People are people, and do people stuff. There much much less deep plotting, and very little god-like overwatch or action by hidden powers in my ASoIaF. Just about the only recognisable act by the Old Gods is the extremely passive one of triggering the arrival of the direwolf pups. Some examples: There's no Night King just an old LC who went a bit rogue (perhaps!) and got some super-bad press afterwards by his victorious enemies. There does seem to be some sort of cognisant "great Other" but he may be no more than a rogue CotF or something similar, not much different from Bloodraven. Craster left his sons in the cold to die. So there were no rivals. No true 'sacrifice', do 'deal', that is just the excuse to keep the wives in line, and their 'the sons are coming' line is just their superstition. Its just 'normal' white walkers coming, nothing to do with Craster's sons. Rhaegar honoured Lyanna for he KotLT exploits. He had no real interest in her at that time. There were neither politics nor romance involved in that act, but people misinterpreted it at the time because they didn't understand the real reason. Notice how there is no significant fallout beyond the instant reactions? Nothing at all further happens, at least as far as we know so far, until the abduction event months later after much has changed (most particularly, the arrival of Aegon and the implications of Elia being unable to birth a third child). Rh'lor is mostly a human scam based around certain magical properties and rituals. Probably. True believers, but not a real 'actor'. I do greatly respect LmLs ideas about pre-history I think that gives you some idea. Not very heresy...
  4. corbon

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    Lyanna is never mentioned as a subject of his dreams. There is just the one set of dreams mentioned as "dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises." which I think we probably all agree is about Lyanna, even though she isn't mentioned. I think 'blood and broken promises' is itself a link to the ToJ via Lyanna's bed of blood (part of his ToJ dream title), and promises he made (and some he broke) to Lyanna in her bed of blood. Or a fever dream... I know. I'm the guy always telling everyone that its not a fever dream, its an old dream. Thats because people use the fever dream aspect to rule out everything. There are clear aspects of un-reality though, especially at the end, and I put them down to the fever and muddled head from both fever and dream-state, interrupting or adapting the memory-dream. Its the dream title that matters most for me. That part is not fever or dream-state addled, its Ned's conscious-level mind's descriptive title. This dream is 'that' old one, the whitecloaks/tower/LYANNAbedofblood one. It fades in, acts real and precise more like a memory, and towards the end starts going off the rails before Vayon Poole's voice intrudes and wakes him up. How so? We only hear about Jojen's dream indirectly and briefly. How can you possible tell it shares 'flavour' with Ned's dream that we see live from inside his head? Thats a fairly wide interpretation. I understand its possible, though its seems extremely tenuous to me. Its possible, I can concede that. But that seem like it would be not only a unique thing in Ned's experience, but also an odd and un-useful way for them to communicate with him. Sending their own dream would make more sense than highjacking, extremely vaguely and poorly, an older existing dream that is clearly based on memories of real events he lived through. And why no follow-up on their part? Seems far far more reasonable to just put the messy parts of the dream down to fever and dream-state than a unique, muddled, pointless and irrelevant Old Gods intervention. Err, you remember the position he is in? The conversations with Cat when they were deciding how to respond to Robert's invitations? He doesn't need an Old Gods 'sending' to have a heck of a lot of foreboding right now... Umm, you have the maiden seat in the stands. You have the victorious Knight still ahorse, with a garland crown to award. No doubt its recieved on the end of his lance (the he rides to his choice), and delivered the same way, and the natural delivery in such a case is too the lap, her hands, not the head, which is awkward. Surprise. Shock. Unexpectedness. Thinking through the implications... I think everyone has their own, different thoughts, and nearly all of them are wrong. They don't know the factors that really mattered. Where does Ned think it wasn't love? I don't recall, and can't find, any indication of Ned's own reaction? Where is Lyanna shamed? Brandon Stark was more than pissed off, where do you get any other Stark having any such reaction? Brandon is a hotheaded, arrogant, entitled douche who just lost to Rhaegar in the biggest event of his lifetime. I think Rhaegar doesn't care what others think. I think Rhaegar thinks that this is a just and suitable reward for Lyanna's actions as the KotLT. I think Rhaegar thinks that any political implications will blow over in time as he resumes his husbandly place with his wife and shows no further regard for Lyanna. I think its not until after Aegon is born and Rhaegar realises that he can't get his third head from Elia that he starts thinking about Lyanna again. I very much doubt the prophecy is that specific. His reference to the Song of Ice and Fire is months later after the birth of Aegon. I don't think he thought of Lyanna as having a part until he realised Elia could not provide the third head. Err, Ned's his friend, and if Ned dies, then its Arthur against Howland and so does Howland and their mission. I don't think we need to rely on mystical reasons for Howland to help Ned in the fight. Ned is conflicted because he respected Arthur Dayne, and didn't feel it was necessary to kill him, though Arthur clearly disagreed. There is no reasonable indication Ned loved Ashara. She is entirely absent in his thoughts and even actions. Ned Dayne's evidence is clearly flawed, Barristan Selmy clearly doesn;t think Ned messed Ashara around, and the Harrenhal dance story actually reads more reasonably once you realise that it was Brandon who was hanging out with Ashara and he talked her into getting Ned off the bench in the corner to get Ned past himself and into the party, not because Ned wanted Ashara. I can't agree that we can be certain Ned would be upset to kill Arthur more than any other man he respected. Must there be one? Why? Can there not be more than one significant tale in a world? This ("all") is, oddly, one of the things I suspect is not literally true. Heck, I'm certain of it. "All the smiles died" is a figurative speech pattern, rather than a literal speech pattern. It indicates that many, or most, or all-of-those-nearby smiles died, not that literally every smile in the entire place suddenly died. I'm sure that there were people there who didn't understand the significance, and saw a young and pretty maiden awarded. Their smiles probably died a bit later, when the other smiles dying clued them that something was wrong. I'm sure there were people. likely Rhaegar haters from court, who saw instantly the flaws in this action and smiled as they realised the ammunition Rhaegar had just given them. I'm not sure whether Lyanna's smile died or not. She knows why she's been given the honour, and honour it is. The political relevance may not be immediately on her mind. Or maybe it was, and her smile did die immediately, I don't know. I agree. Sort of yes. Shock and surprise for the most part. I think it was very unexpected for almost everyone there. Perhaps. I agree there would be many different reasons and reactions, other than the initial surprise. Is there any evidence he payed any attention to Lyanna at all, other than presenting her with the crown? Before the months-later abduction that is, of course. Agreed. Thats... fanciful. You're saying that before Lyanna did the KotLT thing, Rhaegar sang a sad song that was actually about here, what she would do, what everyone else around her would do, and her ending? Obviously well disguised of course. I rather suspect, being a melancholy sort of chap, and with the history his family has, he had plenty of other sad stories to sing rather than prophesying one of his own in the future. Its the title, not the memory-laced contents, that places here there, and his actual waking memories that tie in perfectly. Not their presence there as such, but the fact that they chose to ignore the entire remaining Targaryen family (on Dragonstone) while emphasising that they were kingsguard who held to their vows and loyalty to Aerys. they could easily have split at least one of their number off, but didn't. Why would Jon Snow be enough to assuage Ned's grief? A bastard newborn nephew who will cause enormous problems forever, vs Lyanna and his closest friends? Not even close. For the dream, for Ned, no. From GRRM to us, why not? Its a clue, something that helps us put together an accurate narrative. Now we know that Ned went from breaking the siege of Storms End, via the Red Mountains of Dorne where he slew Arthur Dayne, or somewhere very close to them, then to Starfall to return Dawn. There are plenty of other places Ned could have gone that would have been a lot easier to get to Starfall by ship from. But the geography in the dream agrees with other memories that he went from Storms End to the red mountains of Dorne to Starfall. Are there none? I have't checked in detail - seems like an enormous task! Is not Ned's other 'Lyanna' dream also memories? Are not Jon;s dreams of the grey walls of Winterfell not memories? Are Arya's dream of her father not memories? Tyrion's sweat-drench dreams of the Eyrie's skycells? Cersei's dream of the crone seems to be largely memory (as it was in life). Varamyr, Haggon and Bump? While not all of these are necessarily memories, I think there's plenty of evidence that this statement is simply factually wrong. There are a number of dreams in the books that are memories. How so? The memories seem to be just that, memories. There doesn't seem to be any symbolic linking. Just some weird dream/fever state symbolism at the end. It seems the brain tends to go over troublesome memories during sleep, not happy, settled memories.
  5. corbon

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    BTW, @Black Crow I meant to thank you for the honour suggesting I start this thread. Not really my place I think, especially given the introductory subject. But I do appreciate the thought and respect.
  6. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    Okay. You reason that there are bridges to nowhere, from nowhere, with neither road nor trail to or from them. Got it. I never said that the roads to the bridges must lead directly east. Just that there are roads and trails that are not marked in the general area. Its the Blackmont's connections to Yronwood, Kingsgrave and the rest that proves at least some of those roads and trails pass through the mountains in that general direction. The alternatives are either your contention that perhaps (because we don't know, we are ignorant, we don't have any (other) evidence) the Blackmonts participate in Dornish and Yronwood affairs via Horn Hill-the Stormlands-the Prince Pass. Thats utterly absurd. Or that the Blackmonts participate in Dornish Marcher affairs and give their allegiance to Yronwood via a trip down the Torrentine to Starfall, then sailing around the entirety of Dorne. Thats equally absurd (and goes against your contention that there is no connection between Blackmont and High Hermitage/Starfall. Sigh, this is the same thing. We agree. The Princes pass cuts from north to south at the western end of the east-west belt (and the Boneway at the eastern end). You literally claimed... okay, I get what you said. You said it rounds along the north-south mountains, arguing against me saying it runs through the east-west mountains. You weren't entirely wrong but the way you said it in opposition to my statement made me misinterpret what you said. My bad. We are both right (which is why we agree). This would be the same map I referenced in post 390. the link is a clearer pic of the relevant area, but clearly the same map. Funny how you are happy to reference this map in support of your argument but refuse its validity when the subject of the location of the ToJ comes up. What I see in this map is that all rivers on the map have a green belt around them (even deep into the desert). But the foothills south of the Red Mountains (east-south-east of Skyreach and Southwest of Yronwood) are not green. The two areas you cite, east of skyreach and close to Vultures Reach are both river-adjacent as opposed to hilly. So the colours are not contextually matching the text. They aren't very relevant, they are just map-pretty. Moot point. But thats not at all true. You dismiss them. You argue that the area is impassable. And I've provided evidence they exist. Your refusing to acknowledge that its even evidence doesn't make it so. This is precisely reversed. I've cited the evidence of bridges across the Torrentine and the connectedness of Blackmont to Yronwood as evidence there must be roads or trails in the general area. And further, somehwere, somehow, some of those roads or trails lead across the mountains from teh Blackmont side to the Yronwood side. Thats called using the evidence. Your entire argument is 'we don't know precisely, so there are none'. That is called absence of evidence and only is possible because you ignore the evidence we have. Any suppositions I'm making are more valid than your because they are based on evidence provided to you in this thread and basic reason (bridges do not exist isolated from roads or trails, etc). Yours are less valid because they are based on a mixture of falsehoods (that impassable cliff? Starfall in a gorge?) and good evidence extrapolated far beyond what it says (the Torrentine is unsafe to cross except by bridges =/=> an impassable obstacle, etc) Same deal, trying again. 1. The green belt is the foothills along the southern edge of the (east west-ish area) of the Red Mountains. The Red Mountains themselves, at least the parts further north of this green belt, are neither arid nor sandy, but have high meadows of sweet green grass, true or false? 2. There are bridges across the Torrentine and its not safe to cross except at the bridges, true or false? 3. Bridges do not exist in isolation. Where there is a bridge, there is a road or trail leading to and from somewhere, true or false 4. Blackmont is on the western side of the north-south spine of the Red Mountains, beside the Torrentine river, true of false? 5. The Blackmonts of Blackmont are bannermen to the Yronwoods of Yronwood and participate in the affairs of the Yronwoods, Manwoodys, Jordaynes, etc etc, true or false?
  7. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    I think it was in one of the heresy X+Y=J threads. This time around? Post 390 covered the green belt and green mountain meadows references, with underlined quotes and commentary. It also referenced the ADwD map. Post 398 explained the connection between east and west side of the mountains without directly referencing textual evidence. Post 438 expanded the connection between east and west Stony Dornish and provided 3 separate textual references to House Blackmont (from the west side of the mountains) being connected to the eastern Stony Dornish in the past and present, including the bannermen of Yronwood reference. It also took, gratefully, your challenged and provided reference to the Torrentine, and underlined, from the reference your provided, that there are bridges and therefore roads and/or trails in that area. Sometimes posts between these ones referenced the evidence already provided. Post 440 you claimed I had provided no evidence at all. Post 452 you reasserted and reaffirmed your original points, ignored all of my evidence and arguments and claimed I had provided no evidence and made no points. No. Please read post 482 with a little more care. The First Men came across the Step Stones area into Dorne and most settled around the Greenblood. A few, the more restless, pushed onward and made homes in the green belt of foothills where storms moving north drop their moisture when they hit the Red Mountains. Even fewer climbed further, and moved into the Mountains, not stopping at the foothills. Where there are high mountain meadows of green, sweet grass. Yes. except you used the wrong quote. The Princes Pass is not south of the mountains in that green belt, its in (through) the mountains where there are high meadows of green sweet grass. Correct False. Just read your own writing. You don't get a north south passage along a north south mountain spine. Its still in the east-west spine, at the western end of that spine. Surprise surprise, thats what the maps show! And what the text describes. There is a north-south spine, along which the Torrentine runs, and an east-west (generally, it seem to go southwest to northeast in most maps) spine. There are two passes through the west-east spine. The Boneway lies on the coast, the eastern end of the west-east spine, and the Princes Pass lies inland, on the western end of the east-west spine. Both go effectively north/south, across the spine, from Dorne to the Stormlands. Yes, the Princess pass is on the eastern side of the north-south spine. Close to it in fact. There is no dispute with that. Oh, I see. You take whats in the text and shape it to your desires. This green belt doesn't cover the southern side of the east-west spine, only a portion of the southern side, where its acceptable for you. /s I see the the sophistry used to avoid acknowledging the point. And its still wrong. Its not safe to cross except at bridges, but the passage does not say there are no other ways. Riiight. The Blackmonts are bannermen to the Yronwoods and participate in their culture, wars and clashes by way of Horn Hill in the Reach, to the Stormlands, and back through the Princes Pass or Boneway. Or maybe they go south, past High Hermitage to Starfall, then by sea around the whole of Dorne? Because there is no named pass road or trail between them and the other Stoney Dornish....
  8. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    Still no acknowledgement that there is any flaw with any statement by you. You don't leave any option but to berate and badger. I would rather move on elsewhere it, but you'll just maintain your flawed head-canon and bring up the same flawed arguments again in the future. Can you acknowledge these facts? 1. The Princes Pass area is green and fertile (as green and fertile as mountains get at least), not dry and arid and sandy. 2. There are bridges over the Torrentine 3. The Red Mountains of Dorne are not impassable from East to West
  9. corbon

    Why moat cailin never rebuilded

    There are clues that perhaps Moat Cailin was built before the First Men. The great blocks of Black Basalt seem to be rare and not locally sourced - at least there is no other castle anywhere near with similar stone. When wet, the blocks appear to be covered with fine black oil. A number of other significant ancient sites around the world are made with "oily Black Stone" or "fused Black Stone" and seem to be from an advanced pre-historic civilisation. ASoIaF wiki Black_stone Further, legend says that the Children of the Forest gathered at "the Childrens Tower", of Moat Cailin, to cast the Hammer of the Waters and break the Neck. Which kinda suggests it wasn't a First Man castle at that time, since thats who they were opposing.
  10. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    Evidence provided to you from the text shows this position to be untenable. Yet you refuse to even acknowledge that evidence has been shown. No, you won't. This is the same pattern - ignore evidence that doesn't support (in this case outright refutes) your position and insist you are right and that anyone who doesn't agree with you has provided no evidence. This point was hammered and hammered and hammered during the 'no roses at ToJ' argument. It was utterly ignored then and you're doing it again now. Here it is again. The foothills on the southern side of the Dornish mountains are a fertile green belt. The desert is further south. So no, going through the Princes Pass, through the mountains, will not bring you to the sands of Dorne. The sands of Dorne are a thing - its a reference to the arid desert areas that cover 75% of Dorne. Arguing that there must be sand somewhere in the mountain pass is pure sophistry aimed at avoiding admitting you were wrong and your original point has no validity. These are the 'Stonier' Stoney Dornish (as opposed to the ones in the foothills), with their hidden valleys and high mountain meadows where the grass is green and sweet. Not an arid desert. This is the terrain of the Princes Pass, the Red Mountains of Dorne - at least the ones on the northern east-west spine where the Princes Pass is located (because this comes from the FM settlers settling the green belt as they headed north from Dorne, and 'those who climbed further' into the mountains = more northern). Yep, the Torrentine is a fast and dangerous river, non-navigable, and unsafe to cross. I couldn't find this originally, and challenged you on it. I failed to search for an additional spelling. You provided this quote, for which I thanked you, absorbed the information (all of it), and incorporated the information into into my mental picture and adapted my argument from it. You should do something similar. In part, you were right, as I have acknowledged. The Torrentine is a difficult and dangerous river. But there's also information there contradicts your theory, that I've pointed out, that you continue to ignore. There are bridges over the Torrentine. Passage over them is safe. And Bridges mean roads, or trails. The movement of people and (small) armies, the participation in Dornish social, political and military life together with those who are on the opposite side of the South-North Red Mountain Spine are further indications that there are (many) unnamed roads and trails through various parts of the Red Mountains, definitely at least some east-west across the south-north spine. All this I have provided you textual reference for. That the Princes Pass leads to a green belt at the southern end, not a desert, is not a fact or a point? That there are bridges over the Torrentine is not a fact or a point? That Stoney Dornish from the west side of the mountains (and Torrentine) participate readily in the social, cultural, political and military life of the eastern said of the mountains is not a fact or point? Lets put a few things together shall we? 1. There are bridges over the Torrentine. 2. High Hermitage is the dwelling of a cadet branch of the Daynes, so there must be a route from Starfall along the Torrentine up to High Hermitage at least. 3. Blackmont is even deeper (further north from High Hermitage into the mountains, on the other side of the Torrentine. 4. The Blackmonts of Blackmont are noted participants in the traditional Dornish Marcher fighting, and in the formation of the Princedom of Dorne under the Martells. They are bannermen of Yronwood (Southern Boneway, foothills of the red mountains, Sea of Dorne) along with with Houses from Kingsgrave (Princes Pass), Sandstone (eastern sands of Dorne), the Tor (southern coast of the Sea of Dorne) and Wyl (Northern Boneyway, Sea of Dorne) (not necessarily a complete list). 4. Shows that there are definitely unnamed routes, trails, roads or passes between the eastern and western sides of the Red mountains, at least up north, if not down south. House Blackmont on the western side of the spine are bannermen to House Yronwood, on the far side of the mountains, at the coast. And fought with the Yronwoods against the Martells. I'd lay long odds that at least one of the bridges across the Torrentine lies on a path between Blackmont and their nearest neighbours, High Hermitage. This is not absolutely required though, just a probability. So by the textual references and canonical maps there seems to be a reasonable land route from the Princes Pass, or somewhere close to either end of it, across the mountains to Blackmont, or High Hermitage, across a bridge, or several, over the Torrentine, and down to Starfall. Not a route you'd take an army through (to many defensible bottlenecks at best, impassable areas for wagons/supplies at worst) probably, but nothing particularly difficult for a small party with an excess of horses. Against that you have "the mountains are difficult and the Torrentine is dangerous unless you use one of the bridges". You have evidence of some difficulties in certain areas/ways. You extrapolate that out to near-impossibility. You then use the absence of direct evidence of ways to overcome these difficulties as evidence that they can't be overcome. However, I've shown you evidence that there are ways to overcome these difficulties, and that people in the region do regularly overcome these difficulties. Its not direct, explicit evidence, but its very clearly 'evidence', and very clear, as evidence, that you are wrong. I have provided evidence that there are routes - passes roads or trails, from the west side of the mountains to the east. They are clearly not the impassable barrier you claim. I have provided evidence that the Torrentine can be crossed safely. Despite its dangerous nature, its not the impassable barrier that you claim. Your claims otherwise are themselves evidence for all to see. I never said anything about a bridge to Starfall. The world book speaks of bridges (it would be 'save by the bridge' if the option was singular) over the Torrentine, not explicitly to Starfall. There possibly is a bridge to Starfall, I don't know, I haven't postulated or assumed such. In fact, I actually mocked your argument about Starfall being impossible to get to even if Ned got across the mountains because its on an island in (at the mouth of) the river by paraphrasing GRRM's words about Ashara not being nailed to Starfall throughout the war - they have boats you know. Yep, we didn't really have much clue, other than being "far to the South" (from Kings Landing) and visibly close to the Red Mountains, until ADwDs was published. But if it doesn't fit your narrative, despite being published under GRRM's name and copyright in ADwDs, it just doesn't exist, even as evidence, let alone proof. Got it. Again.
  11. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    This is the same as the old 'roses can't grow at the ToJ' argument. You took the position that its implausible to travel from Princes Pass to Starfall through the mountains and across the Torrentine, which followed the position that the Princes Pass includes the Red Sands of Dorne. Both of these positions are significant factors in arguments you make about other theories. It has been shown to you that neither of these position is supported by the text and that, though some of your data was correct, much was also invented. Your limited real supporting data does not reach your conclusion and ignores other data. Rather than acknowledge that your starting position(s) is(are) not sustainable you refuse to acknowledge any points opposing you, falsely claim those arguing against you have provided no evidence (what the heck do you call the maps and quotes from various books then? - oh, thats right, if you don't agree with something from a book its not actually evidence!) and move on. What do you call this behavior?
  12. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    There are bridges across the Torrentine, which means roads and/or trails in its vicinity. On an island at the mouth of the river, on the shores of the sea. Not really relevant anyway. Starfall is clearly get-at-able, whether you come be sea or by land. To paraphrase GRRM, they have boats you know... Its you who are positing that there is no access. There is no such indication. Exactly. But their route must go east at some stage, before it reaches the Reach side of things. Otherwie they'd not be involved with eth Stony Dornish And there is no indication, nor reason, that they are cut off from High Hermitage or Starfall. Clearly they do not exit only at Horn Hill. If that was the case they'd be utterly cut off from the other Stony Dornish and have no reason to be associated with them at all. More to the point, you are right, nobody knows exactly, though anyone with a brain can figure some things. You don't know, but you are still making hard claims. But you are the one saying 'there's no passage'. All I'm doing is showing that there is no evidence to support your position and some evidence against it. You've shown what you used as evidence but it does not support your claims. I don't need to. You are using absence of evidence as evidence of absence. I don't need to prove a named pass. All I need to do is show that your claims are fake, which we both have done with the quotes. Further, there is indirect evidence against you, which you conveniently ignore, and claim "we don't know'. I have already provided the additional evidence that points towards, without explicitly proving, un-named passes, roads or trails between various locations in the Red Mountains, by the social, political and military connections between the people on either side of that particular spine. The entire point is that there is no indication that it would be impossible, or even particularly difficult, for a small party to travel between the Princes Pass and the close vicinity of Starfall without passing through the Dornish desert or taking a long sea voyage.
  13. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    Yup. Incidentally, its the 'both ways' spelling that meant I couldn't find the extra passage you showed, so thanks for that. Everything I found was 1r so I never thought to try an alternate spelling. Yes, we know the Princes Pass runs from Dorne to the Reach, from Skyfall to Nightsong. Its the easiest way between the Reach and Dorne. That doesn't mean its a wormhole, with only an entrance and exit. It also doesn't mean its the only route to anywhere through the mountains. It also doesn't mean it goes all the way to the sands of Dorne. It goes from the Reach to the green belt of hills in Dorne. The Princes Pass is not 'a way to reach Starfall'. No one has suggested that in any way shape or form. But nothing excludes, and several things clearly point to , there being ways to reach Starfall from the Princes Pass, ways that do not require passing through the Dornish desert. Yes, the mountains are high and rocky. but people get through them. There are castles and people travel between them. Starfall, High Hermitage and Blackmont are Dornish and participate in Dornish politics and society, not the Reach, which is closer and doesn't have the Torrentine in the way. Just to remind you, travellers in small groups can use roads and trails that armies cannot. But even small (friendly) armies must travel these routes or the forces of House Blackmont could not be a factor in any military operations. Lady Blackmont and her children are among the Dornish notables Tyrion meets outside Kings Landing. Clearly the Blackmonts - on the far side of those mountains - are geographically connected to the other Stony Dornishmen, as they are listed with the Lords of Kinsgrave, Wyl, Skyreach etc and fought against (I can't actually tell precisely if they were bannermen to Yronwood or allies) the Martells as they united Dorne. There are ways through the mountains. Yes, most of the coast of Dorne is like that. And not at all relevant to our discussion. Right. From where he is, which is a completely different place and requires completely different travel and hardships. Plus, he's Fat Sam, has no horses, no supplies, no comrades. Agreed. And from that context its not unlikely that she's exaggerating the tasks required, though frankly the first two need no exaggeration. Bullshit. He won't reach Oldtown because a) he's Sam, b) he's got to cross the desert, and he's Sam, c) he has no horses, no skills, no supplies, has to cross the desert and he's Sam. Crossing the mountains and the Torrentine are not impossible tasks, they are just magnified tasks to demonstrate the futility of even trying. Sam swimming ashore and crossing the desert is already an impossible task. Sigh. the very books themselves are extremely far from 100% accurate. You are using the wrong meaning of canon. And pointlessly mis-applying the meaning you are using Totally agreed. Its utterly absurd to not take the World Book as generally accurate in terms of geography and the like. Agreed. I couldn't find this one. You were right in parts of your description, and thanks for providing the quote. Right. So its not navigable. But there are bridges. And therefore roads or trails. And there are canyons and crevasses, as well as rapids and waterfalls. As you said. But no sheer cliff that must be passed with no route. And Starfall is not deep in a massive gorge, or impossible to Reach. You started with some accurate basics that describe generally difficult terrain, and made up a whole bunch more to make it idealistically impossible for Ned to travel from inside the Princes Pass to Starfall overland. But the truth is that there is nothing impossible about it, not necessarily even anything particularly difficult about it for a well equipped party already in the Princes Pass, and clearly many other people do it as Blackmont especially (according to your false descriptions literally impossible to connect to anywhere else in Dorne), but also High Hermitage (ditto) and Starfall (only by sea along a coast with no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues) are regular participants in the political, social and military life of the Stony Dornish of the Marches. There is no indication Ned ever saw the sands of Dorne, and no indication that it would be particularly difficult for him to move form the ToJ, located in the Princes Pass, to Starfall, through through Red Mountains and across the Torrentine.
  14. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    No, you aren't. The sands of Dorne are far south of the Princes pass, on the other side of a green belt of foothills. Where is this sheer cliff mentioned? Not in any canon I can find. And certainly not a single endless cliff for hundreds of leagues. That surely would be a notable feature readily remarked upon. In parts no doubt. Its a mountain river. Roaring and tumultuous. Which does not make it impassable. But where is this description mentioned? Its not in canon I can find. He didn't, as far as I can tell. Starfall is not situated at the bottom of a Royal Gorge like canyon. Its on an island at the mouth of the Torentine river. Somehow, despite this impossible terrain that you've sprung from ... somewhere, House Dayne has been able to found a second seat at High Hermitage, upriver. And Ser Gerold can get in and out. Not to mention the Blackmonts of Blackmont, even further upriver. Not to mention that despite your fantastic utter isolation from teh rest of Dorne, they've been a rich, powerful and influential House throughout Dornish history. I'd like to know how you've constructed this... description?
  15. corbon

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    Even with that ... theory, there is no 'sands of Dorne' in Ned's past. Which is the reference you used. It was you who clearly referenced a path through Dorne that Ned took which we have no reference for or indication of. I am looking at the map, the canon one from ADwD that clearly shows the location of ToJ (so much for the Maegor's Holdfast theory!), and it does not show that the best way to Starfall is by sea. The sea is a long way away (literally as physically far as Starfall, assuming one must go through the pass to ether end before turning for the coast) and once there its a very long sail around. Its almost certain there are trails, even roads, in some places from one side of the N-S spine of the Red Mountains to the other, say between Kingsgrave and Blackmont, or Skyreach and High Hermitage. Then down the Torentine to Starfall. I noted the sands reference, and objected, because of the old, silly, 'no roses at ToJ because its too dry' argument. Which was repeatedly debunked in thorough detail yet never acknowledged. It looked like the same wrong head-canon operating.
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