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corbon

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  1. corbon

    The KoLT and Subsequent Events

    You said it. And there is a huge difference between your claim of Rhaegar sending them away from Aerys and between Aerys assigning two of them to leave with Rhaegar and then another to find Rhaegar and get him back. OTOH, 'whatever' is right. Because Rhaegar clearly assigned Darry, Selmy and Martell to leave Aerys alone with Jaime yet you don;t accuse them of Treason. And even Aerys only accuses Martell because he thought Martell lost deliberately, not because Martell left his side. Bullshit. We've covered that extensively. They were at their assigned posts, assigned by Aerys*, and are not responsible for what happens hundred of leagues away when there are 4 other KG still capable of guarding Aerys. *To remind you again, Dayne and Whent left with Rhaegar long before anything happened. They must have been assigned to Rhaegar by Aerys, because Aerys never questions their absence or loyalty over a year, and traditionally the King decides whther Kg will be assigned to protect his family or not. Hightower was explicitly sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar and get him to return. If they had of left their posts, with no instructions to do so and no information as to the current situation, because their intuition told them that Aerys was in danger and needed them, then they'd be guilty of treason. Read your own quote. Aerys has suspicions, and fears, and there are rumours. These are not facts that Aerys actually believed Rhaegar to be trying to supplant him. And in the end, Aerys puts his faith in Rhaegar. He makes him commander. Which proves that while he may have had fears and suspicions, he didn;t actually believe them enough for them to define his final choice. Thats all I have time for... sorry I couldn't address the rest.
  2. corbon

    About the Trident

    Yes, and I never said otherwise. And my timeline attempt to explain what we are told to you clearly has them both dying before Rhaegar, we're just not sure exactly when. No. The quote says they met "as the armies clashed", which indicates at or near the start. No, he died before Rhaegar died, not before Rhaegar and Robert met. Its possible he died before Rhaegar and Robert met, or its possible he died during their duel. However, we have indication that Robert and Rhaegar met early in the battle and that Lewyn Martell didn't die too quickly, since the Dornish forces had time to wound Lord Corbray, have Corbray and his heir retire from the battlefield, and threaten Robert's flank before Martell was killed. Therefore it seems very much more likely, according to the textual clues we have, that Martell died during Robert and Rhaegar's fight, as probably did Darry and Selmy (wounded multiple times rather than dying). Its not a stretch, its what the text indicates. 1. that they met early in the battle, and 2. that their personal fight took some time. And its not unreasonable either - as we are shown by the famous hour long duel between a Corbray KG and Daemon Blackfyre on another battlefield between Targaryen loyalist and rebel armies. First, they are not Rhaegar's sworn shields. They are KG under his command. They would not necessarily have been fighting directly with him - as you yourself argued, they might have been commanders of other wings like Martell was. I didn't say they weren't, just that we should assume they were, and that the reasons you gave for your assumptions were not good ones. Secondly, if Rhaegar wanted to honourably fight Robert, any KG around him would only keep others out of the fight rather than take on Robert first. Its not my head canon at all. Its an attempt to follow the textual data we have as closely as possible. There are many ways the battle may have gone. All I'm doing is pointing out how so many of your assumptions run contrary to the textual data we have, and thats probably a large part of the reason why things don't seem to work for you. Its a rather ironic last sentence though.
  3. corbon

    The three Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys.

    Its not certain they had all their army in the early battles. It must take quite a long time to muster all the levies and march them south. Yet the early battles happen in a lightning rush (in campaign terms) and have to include time for Ned (long way) and Robert (relatively short way) to get home before they go off to fight. Plus there is the time needed to quell the local Royalist supporters (some House in every region stayed loyal to the Targaryens). I think that the early battles, up to and including Battle of the Bells, are fought with very much smaller forces, just those that can be mustered and marched in a few weeks or less, mostly Lords, great and small, and their household troops and similar. Probably almost entirely mounted and numbering in the low thousands, maybe with a few spearmen and archers from the more local regions or vassals. That also explains how Robert can fight 3 battles in a day at Summerhall. Than after the Battle of the Bells, there is a pause for several reasons - the weddings to finalise the alliance, plus waiting for the bulk of the armies to arrive, the levies, spearmen and archers. That may still take several months more, plus there are still the Loyalist lords to clear out and supply and communication lines to secure. By the time they are actually ready to march on KL with a force sufficient to take it from a few thousand gold cloaks, the Royalists have recovered much of their scattered first army, plus have their own levies etc coming in and now KL has a much larger defending army and the Rebels still don;t have enough to take it, in truth. Without a navy to blockade it, they have little chance of taking a well defended KL. That introduces the need for negitions to secure additional allies. The Lannisters are not committed yet - who is talking to them and how long will they take? The Greyjoys? What negotiations there? All in all I see no problems with 'the big pause' between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident. There are many potential reasons why the rebels couldn't 'make a move' for a long time, and indeed, eventually it was the Royalists who made the next move (I wonder if that wasn't a mistake pressured by Aerys, myself, given the description of much of Rhaegar's forces as being raw and new). If does not impute a timing. You are assuming that the reference is in chronological order, but there is no necessity for it to be so. Seems to me its telling of Rebel successes regionally, first, then covering the responses and regional success of the Loyalists.
  4. corbon

    The KoLT and Subsequent Events

    Well, I guess I'm too old to work that shit out. Its not available in the Play Store here, for whatever reason. I can find it on Apple store on He didn't "send them away". Whent and Dayne were already away, had been since the new year when Rhaegar left KL with them on a long journey that ended (well, not ended, but had a significant milestone) close to Harrenhal with the abduction of Lyanna. Hightower had already been sent away, by Aerys (to get Rhaegar to come back and take command). No. Aerys does not think Rhaegar is trying to depose him. That is not in the text. There are rumours and hints that a faction at court were trying to convince Aerys of this in the text, and that Aerys had occasional suspicions of this (he's mad and paranoid and gets weird ideas sometimes for a while - especially when they are being constantly fed to him by courtiers), but more pertinently there are clear textual indications that Aerys did not think Rhaegar was trying to depose him. Aerys wanted Rhaegar to take command of the war effort even before the Battle of the Bells. When he couldn't find Rhaegar he appointed a Rhaegar-substitute (Connington - young, bold, and a noted Rhaegar-ite) as Hand and when Connington failed Aerys sent Hightower to go get Rhaegar back. Aerys chose Rhaegar to take command. Twice. That is direct textual counter to the idea that Aerys thought Rhaegar wanted to depose him. Plus you've got the whole Brandon thing. If Aerys thinks Rhaegar is trying to depose him, then he has a great opportunity to allow Brandon's challenge to Rhaegar. Instead, he murders Brandon and nearly everyone involved. He brooks no slur on his heir Rhaegar and considers it treason for anyone to oppose Rhaegar. That is not the action or thought process of someone who thinks Rhaegar is going to depose him. YES. Thats quite clearly the case in the text. Instead of thinking this fact is ridiculous, try getting rid of the counter-textual notion that Aerys thinks Rhaegar is trying to depose him and suddenly the fact works! Because the king clearly doesn't suspect Rhaegar of treason any more since he's given orders for Rhaegar to take over! Because he's a mad paranoic, and dying (and losing) is a failure. Because they are not in his current thoughts and all they have done is follow their orders without failing. He doesn't. They weren't there in defiance of their king. Neither were the KG at the ToJ. In fact they specifically state that if they had the chance, Aerys would still be king. Err, no. I think I have some idea what you mean, but you've badly misworded it. Others can also defend the honour of the blood royal (there are many example of Sworn Shields to blood royals who were not KG. The Hound - Prince Joffrey Harwin Strong - Rhaenyra Dunk - Egg At least one case if not more in FaB (not available for searching on asearchoficeandfire.com).
  5. corbon

    About the Trident

    Yes. A wing is a division, 'battle' or group of forces placed on one side (flank) of the battlefield. A flank is one side of a force/unit. The whole point of a battle line is that all the smaller subunits (even down to the individual) each have flanks but by being in a line together they cover each other's flanks (except the poor guys on the very ends who each have one flank uncovered). Robert was leading the centre. The centre has a flank. The wing should cover that flank, but if it is badly maneuvered, or driven back (and note the data point combination of Robert's flank being threatened and senior leaders of his left wing being wounded and leaving the battle), it will uncover that flank and allow the opposite wing to 'threaten' the flank of the centre. Came together is a beginning, not an ending (of their personal fight). See 2. Rhaegar and Robert's fight took a significant amount of time. The 'came together' near the start of the battle it seems - "as the armies clashed". they fought for some time - "circling and clashing again and again" (and note the 1 hr personal duel between Corbray KG and Daemon Blackfyre on another battlefield). Its quite obvious why Rhaegar would want to go mano-y-mano with Robert. Killing Robert could do nearly as much to the Rebel army as killing Rhaegar did to the Targaryen army. Rhaegar was a highly skilled warrior and in fact wounded Robert first and was therefore winning. Robert killed him, but it could have gone either way. Rhaegar was winning. They fought for quite a long time. Rhaegar was winning. It seemed like a good move then, especially as his army started well but was taking bad casualties. Then Robert killed him. And my point is that the data appears to say otherwise. But you don't seem to pay attention to the quotes. The apparent timeline goes like this. 1. The two armies clash together 2. Robert and Rhaegar come together and start fighting ('coming together' "as the armies clashed") 3. The Dornish are threatening Robert's flank and have wounded Corbray senior who retires from the field with his heir - the Royalists are doing well. 4. Lyn Corbray picks up his father's sword and leads a charge that routs the Dornish and kills Lewyn Martell. 5. A wounded Robert gets in the crucial blow that kills Rhaegar. 6. The royalist army runs away. Now, some time between 1 and 5, Darry is also killed and Selmy wounded (many times). But we can't know if its 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, or 4.5 for either event(s). Well, thats not entirely impossible. I'm just pointing out that the data we have, says that they came together early in the battle and their personal duel was quite sustained. And thats also possible to fit with a relatively short, sharp battle. Once the armies clash, a battle might be quite short, especially when its ended early by the death of a commander and several other senior figures. And its not necessarily that surprising that the Royalists lost key figures quicly. They may have had more mean, but they were mostly lesser levies against battle-hardened rebels. That puts more weight on the fewer key fighters in the Royalist army, and gives them less support as well. I tend to go with the data if it can fit, rather than deciding off my own bat that I think the battle went a different way and dismissing the data. Your "what we appear to know" is not stuff we know. Its your assumptions, your A+B=Cs. And your assessment of 'stupid' doesn't seem to fit with the facts or what anyone in world says. Your problems seem to stem from making lots of assumptions, connections and assessments that don't fit with the data, then complaining about things not making sense in the story. You could try reassessing your understanding and thinking about ways a different understanding might fit the data, rather than complaining that the data doesn't fit your current understanding and a bunch o things don't make sense to you. Well, if you pay attention, its tells us that Robert and Rhaegar came together quite early in the battle - when it was fairly even still. Things went south for the Royalists while they fought, then Rhaegar was killed, then the Royalist army crumbled. It all exactly fits together with the data. Just not the assumption that they didn't come together until the end.
  6. corbon

    The three Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys.

    Yes, its functionally irrational to suggest that following orders from A excludes them from being under B's command. It doesn't matter that you object to the real world example. Just because Lannister men follow Tyrion's orders does not mean they wouldn't follow Tywin's, Jaime's or Cersei's orders. Just because Ned put men under the command of Beric Dondarrion doesn't make them Beric's men to the exclusion of Ned (a number of them were Winterfell men, remember) or Robert. "In the dream as it was in life". As he had dreamed many times before. I believe the 'dream' is largely Ned's actual memory of the event, though it rambles off into dream weirdness towards the end in at least one case and does a kind of dream 'fade in' at the beginning, where the characters appear as shadowy wraiths without faces. I think there is reason to assume that. Or at least, reason to assume they haven't broken their KG vows. For me at least, its a fundamental dissonance to claim 'swore a vow' as something significant, for someone who is knows they are forsworn on such hugely important vows. If they were forsworn they would have said it differently somehow. The emphasis could not be on the vow itself, and therefore its sanctity, because vows themselves no longer can be sanctified for such men. Instead they would have given reasons relating to the sanctity of their purpose. Agreed.
  7. corbon

    The KoLT and Subsequent Events

    Actually, I can;t see this - bit of self correction here. I was being a bit lazy and dropping one point to argue another. "We swore a vow" is incompatible with forsworn men of honour. The logic gap here is "If... it runs counter to the king's orders". No such thing is suggested or proven. He didn't strip the king. He left 3 of 7 with his 'girlfriend'. The other 4 of 7 were with the King last he new. He later takes 3 of 4 away from the King to defeat the rebels. And leaves 1 of 4 with the King, the one the king wants. No one, not even you, suggests that the 3 removed here are Traitors for allowing themselves to be stripped from the King. These are facts that have been pointed out previously. Not remotely true. Their oath does not say "be wherever the King wants me at any and all particular times". Even if it did, they'd all be instant oathbreakers every time the King wished they were in multiple places at once. Indeed. But pay attention to the actual oath before declaring people oathbreakers..
  8. corbon

    The KoLT and Subsequent Events

    Hooray! Not being an apple guy, no app for me. But at last we have the source for this - I've been looking for it on and off for years. Thank you.
  9. corbon

    The three Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys.

    Agreed. Its not that they must have kept their vows to Aerys while doing as Rhaegar commands, its that its entirely possible that they did so without breaking their vows, and their own statements and attitudes are not those of oathbreakers. I don't understand why people fight so hard against them having held true when it easily fits so well with everything. And them forswearing themselves does not. I can see how Ned, Jaime and Barristan might be unaware of the true situations, and so hold them up to (as) a standard they might have possibly failed. Even though it goes against characterisation. But they clearly don't hold themselves as forsworn.
  10. corbon

    The three Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys.

    I just can't square breaking their KG vows with 'we swore a vow' combined with declaring Aerys would still sit the throne if they'd been around. If they (he) just broke their vows to Aerys to swear another to Rhaegar, then they are oathbreakers, and too honest to not admit it to themselves. There is no way they could so proudly and defiantly state swearing a vow as a reason to defy Ned even after the war is clearly lost if they know themselves in their hearts to be oathbreakers, even if the oathbreaking was moral and necessary.
  11. corbon

    About the Trident

    Yep. Check that quote again. "Threatening", not 'attacking'. But the Dornish can only be threatening Roberts flank if they have driven back his wing or he had badly mismanaged his deployment and maneouvering, which isn't anywhere indicated (although... Robert credits Ned for winning the battles, so its possible he did mismanage it before becoming personally involved and Ned redirected things while Robert was fighting - we don;t really know much). Also note that the Corbrays are a fairly senior House, with a famous Valyrian Steel blade, famous KG (one fought Daemon Bkacfyre for an hour on the Redgrass Field) and a Regent in their past. Lord Corbray has been wounded and his heir retired with him, so things are going badly it seems for the Rebel left, before Lyn Corbray picks up his fathers sword and turns the tide. There are many other men of note, we only hear a few partial stories. For example, there were three Darrys killed at the Trident, all older brothers of the Lord who sits during ASoIaF. So there was definitely senior Darry's present, probably the Lord or his Heir, as well as Jonor. Probably his nephews or brothers, I don't think we can tell. But the most senior of them would certainly be strong candidates for local command. There were also Mootons, Rygers, Brunes, Crabbs and more, all of which have featured elsewhere in the storys or histories. And yes, the loyalists took considerably more lumps than the rebels. That happens when an army breaks. I don't think you can extrapolate out from a few known figures and generalise over the battlefield. Again, there is no indication that this happened before Robert and Rhaegar came together. In fact it is indicated otherwise by what little we have. 1. Robert and Rhaegar came together "as the armies clashed", which indicates, though not definitively, early on in the battle. 2. They fought for quite a while. "circling and clashing, again and again" Bear in mind again, the Corbray KG vs Daemon Blackfyre fight lasting an hour (not that I expect Robert and Rhaegar must have been that long, but its an example). 3. Rhaegar wounded Robert badly enough that he couldn't travel for several days. 4. The royalists were not on the ropes for a start. At least on their right, the rebel left, they appear to have been winning initially. 5. According to Yandel, Darry and Martell died before Rhaegar did. Though not necessarily before he met Robert. When you say x plus y means z, and infer further claims from z or ask questions based on z, it means you are assuming x and y (to get to z). You just did it again when you assumed that all of Rhaegar's top men were dead or disabled before Robert and Rhaegar even came together. I apologise, I didn't mean to be snarky. Just pointing out that X+Y=Z won't lead to true Z if X or Y are wrong.
  12. corbon

    The three Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys.

    Right, sorry, I do recall seeing that argument before. I don;t think much of it though. If Aerys is bad enough that they can break their oaths to depose him, then he's bad enough they can break their oaths to depose him, whether the replacement be Rhaegar or any other. Hightower nowhere displays any 'Rhaegarism'. But we can agree to disagree.
  13. Got bored and wandered off midway through the second page, but a note here: Rhaegar did have an easy way to find out about Lyanna as the KotLT. He was instructed to find the KotLT by his father. He is an extremely intelligent man, who as a child awed the Maesters with his wits. All he has to do to uncover Lyanna is interview the three squires. The KotLT told the three knights he defeated, publicly, to teach their squires honour, in lieu of the usual arms, armour and horse ransoms. What event has happened recently with those three squires together?
  14. corbon

    The three Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys.

    The way you state this seems to be saying that they are Rhaegar's men over being Aerys' men. And so does the rest of the post. But thats both a functionally irrational statement (taking orders from a Lt does not mean you would obey the Lt over a Cpt) and contrary to the text (they claim Aerys would still sit the Iron throne if they had been present), so I don't understand what you are saying here. These parts I agree with completely. The problem is, Hightower himself declares that Aerys would still sit the Iron Throne had the three been present at the Red Keep. Any theory that does not fit this data point is untenable IMO.
  15. corbon

    About the Trident

    Its not random. Leaders are distinctly marked out with banners, heraldry, distinctive armour etc. In fact thats the only way you can tell who is who on the battlefield (remember the 'reappearance' of the dead Renly at the Battle of the Blackwater?). Robert had personal beef with Rhaegar, as well as recognising the value of taking him out. Rhaegar would equally know the value in taking out Robert. Both would have aimed for the other.
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