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corbon

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  1. I don't think you've read much about this theory then. Or possibly most of the detailed discussions were lost when the forum moved several years back. Sheesh, I just checked the wiki, what is there is shameful. Try the Tower of the Hand. I don't agree with everything he says (for example Brandon is a much better candidate to have dishonoured Ashara than Ned, both textually and narratively, whom he passes off as fact when we don't actually know), but at least there is enough analysis to give you a thorough grounding in the 'why Lemore being Ashara would narratively work'. IMO it is potentially one of the best working hidden narratives in the series. There are a LOT of narrative and collective data points that support Lemore = Ashara. The only flaw, is the eye colour, which is AVOIDED by GRRM. That one seems to be a deal-breaker for most people though, even though purple eyes often appear blue or grey. Also note that although Tyrion questions her identity, he decides he doesn't care. He's also never met Ashara Dayne, nor had much to do with any Daynes. My current "best" (ie what I think is best supported both textually and narratively, but still only one of many possibilities) narrative goes something like this. Ashara was dishonoured by Brandon Stark, got pregnant and had a baby, reported stillborn but possibly actually her "sister" Allyria. She was close to Rhaegar and Elia. She is possibly involved with finding a wetnurse for Lyanna and sending Wylla to the ToJ (not directly supported, but Wylla seems to be from the Starfall area and Arthur was with Rhaegar and Lyanna, so....) After the Sack, Varys got Aegon (or the Pisswater Prince) out of KL and on a boat down to Starfall). Ned turns up at Starfall with Dawn, Jon, Wylla and news of Arthur's death. More or less simultaneously (the timing would vaguely match, especially if Varys took a few weeks after the sack to get (F/)Aegon out of KL and onto a ship), Ashara receives news and/or instructions from Varys - possibly from the ship carrying (F/)Aegon and waiting offshore. Before or shortly after Ned leaves, she fakes her death and boards the ship with (F/)Aegon to Essos. She raises (F/)Aegon under Illyrio's care for several years until Jon Connington is brought into conspiracy. She remains closely associated with what she believes is the son of her close friend (Elia) and her brother's close friend (Rhaegar), one of the highest level conspirators. She is a Lady, dornish (golden skinned), close to forty years of age (Tyrion merely guessed and has history guessing ages wrong), had a child which is not in the picture, is closely associated with Elia and Rhaegar, has dark hair, would be a Targaryen loyalist not connected to the Martells (nor to Dany), swims (faked her death by diving into the sea, grew up by the sea), is clearly attractive, has secrets and needs to hide, speaks to Jon Connington (former Hand of the King) as an equal in private, and would be close to the ultimate possible 'witness' to Aegon's authenticity (even if Varys has pulled the wool over her eyes).
  2. I rather suspect that would be the rampant Rhaegar-hate that infects a high proportion of this forum, rather than an accurate reading of the text. Yes, he lost to Robert at the Trident. But he was good enough to fight Robert one on one for a long fight and wound him badly enough to prevent Robert from advancing to KL after the battle. How many others could have done as much? About the Trident: At Harrenhal: Generalisation: (FYI, puissant means skilled or mighty, not weak or cowardly). Lord Stefans Tourney at Storms End : From Cersei to Jaime (borne out by what Tourney records we have): About Twyin's tourney: From TWoIaF (written for Robert remember, so not going to praise Rhaegar unnecessarily) So, in summary: - Rhaegar was considered by Barristan to be a mighty warrior - although he lost to Robert at the Trident, they fought for a long time and Rhaegar wounded Robert seriously enough for Robert to hand Ned the pursuit while he healed - Rhaegar was considered, even by his enemies, to be everything that could be wanted in an heir - Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are considered two of the greatest warriors of their time. Rhaegar was right up there with them. Although he rarely competed in tourneys, we know of three tourneys he jousted in. He reached the final joust every time, winning one and losing once each to Barristan and Dayne. During those tourneys he beat the flower of the west, other notables including Bronze Yohn Royce, Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington, Ser Barristan Selmy twice and Ser Arthur Dayne at least once (and a 12 lance draw or win another time). Jousting is not melee, but it is training for war and part of a warriors skills. Rhaegar was a very, very good warrior indeed. Robert was better one-on-one on the day.
  3. I don't think its been deliberately overplayed, I just think its a natural artifact of the combination of a world that has virtually no means of usable identification, and several major upheavals within the last generation. I mean, in a world without photos, how hard is it to slip into a new identity. Identity theft is common in our world, now, despite all our instant technology. We forget how easy it is...
  4. corbon

    R+L=J v.165

    Cheers, and to UL. Sort of feels sad to just disappear again, but no way I'm going to get caught up in the same old same old rebuttals and counterarguments.
  5. corbon

    R+L=J v.165

    Hey, old friend! Me too. Me too. at the bottom... Haha, old fr-enemy, I think mine used to be even worse. (OTOH, at a certain point it does become a weeding mechanism to reach the people who are invested enough and know the material well enough to have really interesting thoughts.) Heck, looking further down, even my shortcut version probably still is worse! In fact I started here, after mucking around to find old logins etc, with quoting 19 posts since UL chimed in to discuss, rebut, agree with - then realized it would be just as long and tedious, and nothing but rehashing old arguments anyway. Exactly why I drifted off. So I'll just lay out a few things without direct quotes at the bottom Hi to another very old friend! A few other very familiar names too I see. Remember that the world book was written expressly for Robert (and his heirs). Those events that he is particularly invested in are told, in the world book, basically from his point of view, as opposed to a factual one. As Ygraine said, there's no active evidence that there was no explanation to her family, and circumstantial evidence that there was an explanation of some sort. Rickard makes no mention of her that we know of at any time after the abduction - with plenty of opportunity, and in public too. Its almost as if he knows something... Brandon definitely knows something, though its impossible to tell what. He knows enough to ride to KL with a beef against Rhaegar (who defeated him in the tourney at Harrenhal remember). How did he now that? Did Rhaegar send him an arrogant message? Was there a witness? Was there an explaining message that Brandon didn't like or didn't believe? We don't know. But its pretty clear that the Starks knew something. They must, for Brandon to ride to KL. And Rickard not mentioning Lyanna's abduction when he got to court strongly suggests he knew something already. As to whether Brandon rode to the Red Keep and shouted for Rhaegar to come out and die, what reason would Jaime have to lie about that? He was there. And nothing we hear of Brandon's history or character precludes such as action. In general I think that people here still haven't taken the lessons from the books about information flow and communications to heart and assume that characters know vastly more than they did about what has happened in the recent past. This applies to all aspects. - The 'abduction'. Who would or could know what, and how quickly? It wouldn't be difficult (especially with Lyanna's agreement) to do this entirely secretly - ie leave no one but the direct participants with any knowledge at all except that she's gone missing, and possibly any attendants (if there were any - she use to ride alone often) were dead. I'm not saying that this did happen, only that it might have and fits with everything we know. Then the only people who know anything are those that Lyanna/Rhaegar contact (Rickard/Brandon). - Keeping up with the rest of the world. If Rhaegar, Lyanna and his companions are travelling in secrecy, where and when are they going to hear about what is happening in KL to Brandon and Rickard. They probably expect to be in opposition with Aerys, yet not want to be in open disobedience/Rebellion so travelling incognito (similar to what Cat did on her trip to KL) and not staying with nobles/alerting people to their presence is a likelihood. So they are hearing tavern gossip at best, nothing at all at worst. Tavern gossip is likely to be months (certainly weeks, possibly years) behind the times, not to mention garbled and inaccurate as often as not. LV tends to dismiss this sort of thing, but I see it as entirely feasible, nay likely that they have little or no contact with the outside world (other than out of date tavern gossip at best) for several months as they travel and hide, and when they do get caught up its almost certainly too late to do anything productive with either Loyalists or rebels. - The ToJ. As I recall the ToJ is not "in the desert". Its near the dornish end of a long pass between Dorne and the Reach - rocky foothills sort of land (not all Dorne is desert). The pass is not often used, being more difficult than alternative routes, and as such it would not be difficult to supply in secret. I think (no longer have all the sources at hand to check, sorry) the Tower had fallen into disuse over last century or so since the Reach and Dorne had been at peace in the same kingdom. I know the show is not a serious resource, but the depiction in the show closely matched my thoughts on it. If its set back overlooking the main route through the pass, but has been abandoned and is not visited by travelers through the pass, it would be a perfect hiding spot. And completely out of contact. A supply and communications line might be maintained through Arthur's connection to Starfall, for example, but that would take weeks or months (Starfall is not that close) to get information (which explains why Rhaegar initially can't be found by Aerys' court, but Hightower eventually finds him and convinces him to come back). The example of Dunk and Egg knowing about Daeron II's death and other things - they were over a decade in the past, and its Egg's own personal family history! I think a better example is that Prince Aegon (Egg) is missing from his father's seat in Summerhall for a year or two and virtually no one in the realm even knows! Yes, news does get around, but it takes a long time unless you are part of the raven network (which ToJ certainly is not, and travelers hiding afrom the King are not), and its often garbled and inaccurate. As to Lyanna and the war - I don't think she was significant to the war at all, basically, and from such deep fundamentals, major differences of opinion grow, so that almost everything LV says, I find myself in fundamental disagreement with, even though I respect his intellect and knowledge. I'm of the opinion that the war was primarily about the Madness of Aerys. Brandon was a fool (Hoster Tully's words IIRC) riding to KL and openly and publicly committing crimes punishable by death, but Aerys went waaay too far in response. Executing all of his companions, and eventually Brandon too, was very harsh, but he could probably have gotten away with that. But what he did to Rickard put every noble in the seven kingdoms on notice that they, and their lines, lived or died at Aerys' mad whim. Demanding Ned and Robert's heads as well went even further, and basically gave them no choice but to rebel. Robert can claim all he likes that it was all about Lyanna, and by the end in his own fantasy world (personal narrative) it probably was, but his words and deeds before and after tell the real story. Rickard (nor Ned or John Arryn) didn't even appear to bring her situation up (as far as we know). With that as a background, I can't see Lyanna having any real potential for influencing the war by the time it has started. Its too late, and whats been done can't be undone and is more consequential than she is. Nor can I see her attitude to Rhaegar changing suddenly due to news of what everyone else has been doing and done. The world has gone mad (on both sides if they originally sent explanation to Rickard/Brandon) and LV's thinking that that would change her relationship with Rhaegar makes no sense to me at all. She's been living with him "in love" for months by then, probably already pregnant, and I cant see her blaming him for the madness of everyone else. Pain, disagreements about what they should do now, fights even, yes, but not to the point of her now being a prisoner instead of a wife/lover. The very rough, very flexible (I agree with LV on one thing, we really know very little about these times) timeline/thought process I believe in (until more evidence is published and or better arguments are made) is roughly this (and bear in mind that I may misremember some details after over a year away, several years since regular contributions, for which I apologize): 1. "Abduction" - consensual on Lyanna's part. R/L 'party' go into hiding/travelling incognito as much or even entirely to avoid direct confrontation with Aerys more/rather than with the Starks. 1a. Messages are sent by R/L to Rickard and/or Brandon. We don't know what it/they say. I suspect (have no evidence other than what little we know of actions and reactions) that they satisfied (up to a point) Rickard, but not Brandon, who may have already had a beef with Rhaegar over events at the Harrenhal tourney. 2. Brandon misunderstand/misinterprets, is misdirected or just doesn't like the message. He acts by going to KL 3. KL events including Rickard's death and Aerys demanding the heads of Ned/Robert 3a. R/L party still travelling/hiding, no comms in, possibly comms out with Ravens, most likely to Ashara at Starfall. 4. John Arryn, Ned, Robert rebel rather than hand over heads. Early battles in the Vale, then Reach. Ned heads north to gather Stark forces including the fisherman's daughter thing along the way. 5. Robert is forced north by Tarly. Aerys decides Merryweather is too ineffectual and replaces him with Connington since Rhaegar still cannot be found. 6. Connington loses to the rebels. Aerys realizes that this is serious, sends Hightower to find Rhaegar, the only option he has left as a field commander. The war seems to stall for months here as it was most of a year long and 4-5 happens within a month or two, 6 harder to tell, but still in the early phase. Possibly its winter (as opposed to Winter) and there are poor campaigning weather/options for the rebels, or possibly they are waiting for/training their full forces, rather than the 'grab-what-you-can-quickly' forces of the first few months. Most likely GRRM just left space because he needed it and didn't intend timelines to be parsed closely. At some stage during this time or just before, R/L party holes up at ToJ. It may not be the first place they holed up at for a time. 7. Hightower find Rhaegar, who returns to KL take command to the loyalist army. Rhaegar possibly talks to the prisoner Ethan Glover about Lyanna. Barristan learns that Rhaegar loves Lyanna. Some time between 3 and 7, possibly as late as Hightower's arrival, R/L get updates on the war. Its not until 6 though, really Hightower actually finding him (7), that Rhaegar could be sure its safe (and useful) to come back, even for him. Now we also have an unknown period - days, weeks or months, its not clear, with Rhaegar at KL in command of the Royalist forces as they are reconstituted/regathered/trained before he can lead them to the Trident. 8. The Battle of the Trident and its aftermath at KL happen. 9. Robert is crowned, word is sent everywhere by raven as to the deaths of the Targaryens and the crowning of Robert. 9a. Ned talks to Ethan Glover, possibly learns a lot he didn't know before. Ned rides south to end the war then further south with Ethan and his other close companions. 10. ToJ receives word, perhaps via Ashara at Starfall of 8/9 (the KG talking to Ned know about the Trident and aftermath). Lyanna is too pregnant/birthed-but-too-sick-to-travel. Starfall has at some stage found Lyanna a wet nurse, Wylla. 11. Ned turns up at ToJ. 12. Ned takes Dawn, Jon and Wylla to Starfall, Ashara commits/fakes suicide. 13. Ned takes Jon/Wylla home. 14. When Wylla is no longer needed as a wetnurse, she returns to Starfall where she later does the same job for Ned Dayne The way I see it, any time after 3, its really too late for either Rhaegar or Lyanna to do anything about the war, without basically giving up each other and the end of the Targaryens entirely (Aerys has to end for Ned and Robert to live, he won't back down under any circumstances, and Robert, now that he's actually at war, will be so aggrieved at Lyanna's supposed fate, he's not going to back off Rhaegar either (Robert's narrative is fixed by now)). BTW, lots of these idea can have large or small deviations without a significant change to the narrative. For example, whether R/L party had support from Ashara or not, or how Wylla fits, or the precise interactions between Rhaegar and Aerys or Rhaegar and Hightower. Sheesh, wasn't that long and tedious!
  6. corbon

    Errors in the WOIAF

    Yandel: Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He (1)died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark (2)was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect. How does Yandel know these? (1) we know, because we've seen inside Ned's head. But I don't see how Yandel could know. I don't see Ned telling that story, nor Howland. If they did, then more people should be asking more questions, questions which don;t appear to have been asked, or even thought about. (2) We know Eddard's men say this. But we don't see any other reference or thought to it from any one. Did Yandel in KL track down their speculation in Winterfell? Surely 'was said to have' would refer to someone of note, or a wider rumour, available around KL, not some junior soldiers in the far north. I guess he must have corresponded with Luwin, so I can see a possibility at least here. Is it possible that these (especially the first) are really continuity errors with the authors giving knowledge that we have to Yandel?
  7. corbon

    Small Questions v. 10105

    And then his fans come here and rave about his theories, and its just another layer of people who 'know' false facts and favour clearly bullshit theories, continuing to lower of the quality of this site...
  8. corbon

    Small Questions v. 10105

    Because its not so straightforward as that. This is effectively a rebellion against the King. The Freys can argue, and have it be true, that Robb is acting against the King. their King, in moving his army south. Who ranks higher, the King or the Lord Paramount? Remember that Stannis had a hard time deciding whether to support Robert or not. And thats his own brother and a clear cut case of the King acting unlawfully against Robert (demanding his head when he had committed no crime and in fact had had a crime committed against him by the crown already).
  9. corbon

    Small Questions v. 10105

    Surely she would just say "my children" then? The 'all' is entirely superfluous unless its actually accurate (and even then, its not at all necessary I guess, so still superfluous). Point being, if she's just inaccurate-through-casual-language here there are even simpler and smoother ways to say the same thing that aren't inaccurate.
  10. corbon

    Small Questions v. 10105

    Not that we know of. (Edric claims that is what she did, he does not claim that anyone saw her). Because thats what the Daynes told people, I guess. Or she left a note. Or thats just their best guess. Pretty much. Of course, there may be a lot more t it that we don't know...
  11. corbon

    A+J=T v.9

    Something I just saw in another thread that I've never seen mentioned before. Its not strong, but its yet another potential clue/parallel/whatever. There is a possibility that Tywin got Joanna as 'sloppy seconds' (a disgusting term, but it serves the purpose) after Aerys. And Shae as 'sloppy seconds' after Tyrion. So for the father, thus for the son....
  12. corbon

    Small Questions v. 10105

    Also, it seems as though Maester Walys died during the war, or its lead up (maybe he went south with Rickard?) Possibly Luwin was sent to Winterfell to replace Walys and stopped at Riverrun on the way as he knew Catelyn would be there?
  13. corbon

    Small Questions v. 10105

    She said that Ned brought Jon home, not sent Jon home. Ned went to Winterfell with Jon. Possibly, but I think this is an enormous leap that isn't a sound basis for any speculation. Its just as likely that Ned came back to Winterfell by a different route due to when and where he was and the need to get back home quickly, and Catelyn understood those things and took no offense. Ned also might like to get back to Winterfell before Catelyn in order to make it his and theirs. Remember, he wasn't living there and wasn't Lord when the wheels of war were set in motion. The place would have had Rickard's stamp still, or a war-footing stamp, which he may have wished to change. And little things, like setting up the Lord's bedchamber as the Lord's and Lady's bedchamber, arranging a nursery, even getting the arrangements under way for the construction of a Sept and inviting a Septon or Septa to take up residence. All in all, if I was Ned I'd have been more concerned about preparing my new bride's home to receive her as her home than being her personal escort on the trip. I think its very unlikely that Ned went to Winterfell and then back to Riverrun to escort her (or even only most of the way back as far as Moat Cailin). I think its pretty straightforward that Ned has assured her about Moat Cailin at a later time than when she first passed by it.
  14. corbon

    Board Issues 4

    Yes. Clear your cache. I was exactly where you were, yesterday, with the answer on the previous page of the thread then, now on the last two pages.
  15. corbon

    Board Issues 4

    Chrome is working for me, but I've been unable to post in the forum since the update on monday with firefox. The bits where you actually write text in for posting won't open up the box to write in. It just stays dark grey and unable to enter anything into. The insert other media box would open up a place to type in a link or attachment but then do nothing when clicking the "Insert into post" button. ...and the answer is on the previous page in this thread - clear your cache. Fine for me now - this edit from firefox.
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