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Walda

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  1. @Aebram, not a comprehensive or definitive collection, but here are some places in the text where this and related subjects are mentioned (AGoT Ch 31 Tyrion IV) (AGoT Ch 40 Catelyn VII) (AGoT Ch 71 Catelyn IX) (ACoK Ch 17 Tyrion IV) (ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII) (ASoS Ch 61 Sansa VI) As you can see, GRRM has left the matter open to interpretation. The only Point of View character that could definitively know is Catelyn, and the only time she addresses Petyr's claim directly, we are in Tyrion's point of view. * Petyr did not need to be told, and may have been told. He might have observed it was Lysa in his bed by the time the sky lightened, as she stayed until dawn, and he knew both girls well enough to tell one from the other, even when drunk. Alternatively, he might have noticed Catelyn had gone cold on him and was acting as if nothing had happened at breakfast the morning after. While, Lysa was suddenly acting like their relationship has gone to the next level. This riddle was posed to Petyr Baelish, not Jinglebell, after all. Lysa's "It was always meeee" speech directly disputes that Catelyn had given him anything, The way Petyr speaks to her implies it is a subject she has been wont to revert to in her cups when they are not as alone as he would rather. Her speech to Sansa was more specific, although we can't be quite sure when Petyr entered the hall, only when he made his presence known. But Petyr has been a part of Lysa's household for the best part of a decade, so there is every reason to suppose she has told him the "I gave you everything" story many times before. We can be sure he knew rather better than Sansa how Lysa would react to the sight of someone who looked like a younger, lovelier Catelyn kissing Petyr in the Godswood. That was why he waited until the sun was up and his wife was dressed and breakfasted and had fed and dressed her son. Petyr timed that kiss to happen when Lysa was downstairs, just as she opened the door to take SweetRobin to see the castle Alayne had made, but before she had put his gloves on. SweetRobin had continued out without his gloves, his mother had abruptly turned back inside. The number of guards and maids that ran out to restrain SweetRobin show the humiliating truth that many of the household staff had seen what was going on. Those that had not would have heard about the kiss and the fit and the giant's head before Alayne was summoned to the high hall. That is the nature of a small group of people who are continually in each other's company - it is very difficult to keep secrets from each other. In Riverrun as well as the Eyrie, I think it is unlikely that they would be living all together as they were, without sorting out who had done what with whom when in short order. The only impediments to understanding are Lysa's jealousy, that turns the sexual harassment by her male favourites into wantoness on the part of their victims. And the wilful insistance of those favourites, that they were encouraged and their victims were willing. Also, in the Riverrun case, a desire to keep secrets from Hoster (the only member of the household who spent much time away from Riverrun). It would take a large measure of wilful ignorance for Petyr to persist in thinking Catlyn had given him her virginity the night. It would take a large measure of wilful ignorance to had been mistaken in the first place. If he had merely been pretending to be mistaken, his persistence in error would not be so wonderful. (ASoS Ch 80 Sansa VIII) Here is the other thing - Petyr claims to have taken Lysa's virginity. But if he did not believe he took it the night he got drunk, then when did he think he had? Lord Hoster had removed Petyr from Riverrun when he discovered Lysa was pregnant - Lysa must have shown signs of pregnancy in the last fortnight Petyr was at Riverrun. Is it credible that Petyr would think he was taking Lysa's virginity if she was already showing signs of being pregnant to him? If Lysa conceived within the last fortnight of Petyr's time at Riverrun, there would have been no symptoms to justify hustling Petyr off to the Fingers before he was recovered enough to ride. I think it is still possible that Petyr had taken Catelyn's virginity (as he claims to Sansa and the Lannister boys) but before the evening Catelyn danced six times with him. Catelyn's denials to Tyrion seem uncharacteristically evasive to me; "loved me once" could mean "took my virginity". But Catelyn is clear throughout that she had not shared his passion. This is somewhat supported by Petyr's "Family, duty, honor meant I could never have her hand". Lysa also claims Catelyn never wanted Petyr, although she also claims Catelyn enticed Petyr. If we take his current recollections as accurate, even when he was a very young boy, Petyr saw himself as the smartest guy in the room, and self-destined for greatness. (ASoS Ch 68 Sansa VII) The World of Ice and Fire claims that the evening Lysa identified as the one Lords Blackwood and Bracken laid their claim before her father, when Catelyn danced six times with Petyr, then refused to kiss him, was also the day the date of Catelyn's wedding to Brandon Stark was announced at Riverrun. That might explain Petyr's drinking, but it would not motivate Catelyn to sleep with him. Especially if Brandon had attended the dinner. Jaime probably spent his first fortnight at Riverrun some time before then. He recalls he had been less than fifteen years old at the time, and Bynden Blackfish had been less than thirty-four years old. (AFfC Ch 33 Jaime V) When Jaime actually was fifteen, he was a knight, and he had sworn himself to Aerys kingsguard at Harrenhal, to forestall his father's plan to wed him to Lysa Tully. There is no mention of Lord Tully attending Lord Whent's tourney. No mention of many riverlords - the Heighs and the Freys are mentioned, but no Darry, Piper, Vance, Blackwood, Bracken, Vypren, Grell, Butterwell, Mallister, etc.etc. Catelyn reminds Eddard that she was only twelve when her father promised her to Brandon Stark.(AGoT Ch 6 Catelyn II). We know Catelyn is no more than two years older than Jaime Lannister and there is a wider age gap between her and Lysa than Sansa and Arya, although in both cases the gap is more than two years, less than three. Petyr is no more than two years younger than Jaime, and he is younger than Lysa, older than Edmure. Edmure is about half a dozen years younger than Catelyn. Catelyn was 18ish when she married Eddard, and Lysa was 16ish when she married Jon Arryn. Brandon had died about a year before the marriage, when Lysa was at most 15, Petyr 14. So at the time of the duel, Petyr was most likely about 13, and Catelyn had been betrothed to Brandon since Petyr was nine or ten. The idea that the duel had been for Catelyn's hand seems to me to be not enough reason to goad nineteen or twenty year old Brandon into it. He had been betrothed to Catelyn for three or four years, had just announced the date of their wedding, if TWoIaF tells it true. He has nothing to gain from humouring some foolish boy with a crush on his betrothed. However, if Petyr was claiming he had dishonoured Brandon's bride, that would be an insult to his bride-to-be's reputation that might have justified the quite savage satisfaction he took. Adding the notion that the winner would take Catelyn's hand sounds to me like Petyr Baelish pushing his luck. Catelyn gave Brandon her favor and Edmure acted as Brandon's squire, so they were at the very least invested in Catelyn marrying Brandon. Petyr made no attempt to gain Lysa's hand, in spite of taking her virginity and leaving her with child. He was happy enough to work on her husband's commissions for at least a decade, building an enviable power base in finance and trade circles, and at court. Petyr only offered to marry Lysa after he had been made Lord of Harrenhal by King Joffrey. More than a full year after Jon Arryn's death. Why? Because he had his sights on being Lord Protector of the Eyrie. Petyr let Cersei keep Sansa hostage, made no attempt to stop the beatings of Joffrey or the marriage to Tyrion. Apart from a possible attempt to take her during the riots of King's Landing, he has let the Lannisters manage her. Until Robb dies at the Red Wedding, making Sansa the heir to Winterfell. (Oh, and Catelyn dies too, but his pure and true love for her seems to be deader.) Once Sansa has a huge inheritance, she becomes irresistible. Lysa also. Jaime Lannister had heard something (ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) If someone had Catelyn before the wedding, it would be either Petyr or Brandon or Eddard himself - or incest. And of the three, Petyr is the only one we know has spoken on the subject. At the time, Catelyn is quizzing Jaime about her son Bran, and that dagger. Jaime remembers that Petyr Baelish lost his dagger to King Robert, who bet against him. Catelyn realises he is telling her the truth, (ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) Jaime has been joking that Catelyn has come to the dungeon where he is tied up because she wants to be serviced by him. He tells her not only how he defenestrated her son Brandon, but also how her fiance Brandon had been strangled by a Tyroshi machine as he struggled to grab his sword and cut down his father. He ends by goading her (ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) by this point, Lady Catelyn has stopped defending Petyr. At no point has she explictly denied that Petyr slept with her. And it makes sense to me that Petyr could goad Brandon to fight with such fury by claiming he had dishonoured his fiance (and yes, this would be true of 'bloody sword' Brandon, because hypocrisy feeds outrage). I know it sounded pretty explictly denied when Tyrion had said "every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead", and Catelyn had told him emphatically "that is a lie". But the lie Catelyn was referring to might have been the notion that Petyr could convert his tragic and pure love for her into a bawdy tale of how he took the maidenheads of both Tully sisters. It might have been a way of evading the accusation that she had sex with Petyr Baelish before she married.
  2. (ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) (ACoK Ch 55 Catelyn VII) Eddard did not marry Catelyn until after the battle of the Bells, where Denys Arryn died. He met and married her, and returned to the war a fortnight later. Robb was born nine montths after, at Riverrun, according to Catelyn. Brandon and his father had died before Robert's Rebellion, at least a year before Robb was born (Long enough for Jon Arryn to call his banners and fight the battle of Gulltown rather than surrender Robert and Eddard to Aerys, long enough for Eddard to get to Winterfell and call the Northern banners, long enough for Robert to raise the Stormlands and fight the three battles in the South before hiding in the Riverlands) Maybe as long as two years before Robb's birth. Did GRRM mean her to say "a tale seventeen years old"? Or was Catelyn lying to Jaime when she claimed her son was a man grown? Is it possible that Brandon was still alive when Robb was conceived?
  3. Petyr Baelish wanted what he could get from Hoster Tully if he was a good-son rather than an indigent ward. He would get more from dutiful Catelyn than capricious Lysa, Hoster would give more for Catelyn. If Edmure died, Catelyn would inherit, a role she had been raised for. There is also the fact that Catelyn was hard to get, while Lysa climbed into his bed. Winning Catelyn would mean spiting the Great Noble Family Stark, and Brandon seems like the type of person who would make that a very satisfactory thing to do. Really, Petyr is bold but extremely pragmatic. He must have known he was not going to win the duel for Catelyn's hand in marriage. He must have known that only Brandon's sense of honour would save his life, if Brandon felt there was no honour in killing a green young boy simply for being infatuated with his betrothed. The whole set-up, where he begs Catelyn for her favour, but she gives it to Brandon, begging Brandon to be merciful, but he isn't especially. Petyr didn't intend to win the duel, this was his chance to look directly at her and say "Cat!" as his heart is piereced, or the boiled leather on top of it. He is guilt-tripping Catelyn and turning her against the man she is going to marry, and leaving her flattered, looking kindly on him. Sure enough, Catelyn remembers him having a love so pure and innocent, he would have given his life for her. And trusts him completely, as her Stark husband did too. After Petyr had told at least Jaime and Tyrion but more probably the whole court (and later, her barely teenage daughter) how he had taken her virginity. When he sets up their meeting at Kingslanding in a brothel. I wonder how dire the situation was for Petyr. If he had been as near death as Catelyn and Lysa had believed, would he have been up to taking Lysa? I suspect too, the "mistaken identity" thing with Lysa was not from his extreme drunkeness, but from a desire to have Catelyn think his love for her was pure and constant, while he was popping Lysa's cherry. Plus that gives Lysa an excuse to be indignant and jealous and insecure about the way Cat treated poor dear Petyr, meaning he can play Lysa like a fiddle and put her in her place at the same time, so why not? I don't think Petyr has any genuine love for Catelyn. His actions when they meet after that long absense are to systematically make her a widow, kill her husband, destroy Winterfell and have Ramsey Bolton as the Stark in Winterfell. He replaces her presumed-dead daughter with the stewards girl, for Ramsey to starve and flay and hunt and stake his claim to Winterfell upon. The daughter that looks like a younger, more beautiful Catelyn (and Sansa is younger and more beautiful than Catelyn was when she accepted Brandon's favour), he watches on while Joffrey has his knights beat her. He arms Joffrey with a crossbow the better to persuade him to kill her traitor father and show her his head. While Cersei has her write those letters to her family, Littlefinger approved the phrasing. Littlefinger stage-managed the riots of Kings Landing (I might one day post a long post on why I believe this, but not today). Sansa was going to disappear like Tyrek, until the Hound stepped in. Petyr then witnessed her marriage to the Imp without interference. He has framed her and Tyrion for the poisoning of Joffrey. He talked Lysa into poisoning Jon Arryn (or at least, she believes she did) and into writing to Catelyn implicating the Lannisters. He threw her out the moon door after becoming Lord Protector of the Eyrie through her. He might even have been behind the catspaw that used the hidden dagger he identified as his own. Catelyn thinks the assassin came for Bran. I think he might just as easily have come for her. His "you weren't s'posed to be here" could easily mean that he had not intended to murder her in front of her son. "It's a mercy" might refer to the fact that Bran was still in a coma and would thus never witness his mother's throat being opened. Petyr talks sentimentally about Catelyn, but his behaviour is incredibly vengeful and resentful. Like Tyrion with Tysha, except Petyr never blames other people for misrepresenting situations to him. Rather, he takes control of the misrepresentation quite conciously, for his own benefit. Tywin pointed out to Catelyn that Littlefinger loves only Littlefinger. Sometimes he says things that suggest otherwise, but everything Petyr Baelish does suggests to me that Tyrion read him right.
  4. Because Jorah has Tyrion in chains and in Volantis it is illegal to help a slave escape ETA @Tyrion1991, "is okay with the Dwarf who confesses to wanting to rape and murder his Sister" - no need to bring Jorah into it, or even to amend your original point, her love of honesty seems morally questionable.
  5. She isn't helping Jorah, she is helping Tyrion. And Penny. And Dany. She believes that life has already become too dangerous for dwarves in Volantis, and that will only get worse when the tigers start their war against Meereen. She thinks Jorah is the kind of person who should be getting into a Volantene war ship to fight against Dany. But she is quite sure he won't be an appreciable increase of the threat to her, just as she is sure that he and his longsword alone were not enough to protect and defend her from the armies of Yunkai'i, Qarth, Tolos, New Ghis, and Volantis. I think her idea is that Jorah is one of the godless outlanders conspiring with the eye of evil to put Dany in peril, but Dany is Azor Ahai reborn and he will have to run, like a shadow from the light, or Kraznys' eyeballs. The Widow intends Tyrion to be her messenger, and her gift to Dany. Her message is "come free Volantis now. " ie. First Volantis, then Westeros, with the help of the freed devotees of the Red God. Slavery is banned by order of the Dragon Queen, so it is unlikely Jorah will get past the gates og the city dragging Tyrion in fetters behind him as a gift. Tyrion's head has a fair chance of staying on his shoulders because Dany and her loyalists shouldn't be overly interested in Westerosi Lordships (althoughit turns out Ben Plumm did not get the agenda). He will be able to advise Dany, and they can send Jorah packing again. Penny will have a better chance of living if she goes with them, because where Dany and her dragons are ,is like Canada in Antebellum America. Westeros and Pentos are like New York City (technically free, but lots of blackbirders around) and Volantis is Mississippi. Also perhaps because her schtick is a double act, so she needs another dwarf?(tbh I personally really dislike Penny and would much rather she had been helped along by the Widow in Volantis, than board the Selaesori Qhoran with Tyrion and Jorah)
  6. I disagree. For starters, the Widow of the Waterfront is learning who Jorah is as he speaks to her. She has sons everywhere, lives in the pub, and her warehouses and docks line the waterfront of Volantis (hence her sobriquet) When she says (ADwD Ch 27 Tyrion VIII) she is letting them know she has sons on the south side of the bridge selling monkeys, in the middle selling gloves, and on the north side selling fetters. the widow knows Jorah is a sellsword, and that he was exiled from Westeros. She speaks the common tongue herself, with only the trace of an accent, though we know she has lived in Volantis among the Volantene pureblood since she was young and lovely, and that she came to Volantis from Yunkai. Was her mother's tongue Westerosi? We know too, that the only people who can overhear their conversation are Westerosi speakers, like Penny. She knows he is a slaver She knows he is a fighter She knows Jorah has taken Tyrion as a slave You could point out that anyone could see at a glance that Mormont, in his mail and leather, and his woolen surcoat with a rampant bear upon it, was a knight of Westeros in exile. Anyone who saw his longsword and his stance would know he was a brutal fighter. Anyone who saw the dwarf he pulled in fetters alongside himself would know he was a slaver. One glance would tell anyone as much as the widow reveals about him. That is true. But what she says hints that she has heard things before she met them.That her son with the short sword and his tattoos cut off, has brothers still enslaved looking out for her. Like, for example the guard of the North gate that saw a knight with a dwarf strapped to his well-lathered warhorse come in on the Selhorys road just as they were closing last night. She might have laughed at the sally "the old ones know more tricks" overheard by dung-gathering slaves they passed. Riverboats travel downstream on the tide faster and more directly than horses on the road, and the Widow has business with many captains who travel up and down the river. It would not take too long for a river-boat pilot to tell how Qavo the customs officer had played Cyvasse with a dwarf from the Shy Maid going down with hides and honey, ale and tallow. The shining eyes of the previously bored old sex-slaves when Tyrion rolled down the stairs and was captured by Jorah, is a surety that they would be telling the story to anyone wanting to hear it. The Widow has sons that drive hathays (like the one the innkeeps 'cousin' loaned to Quentyn). She had sons whose worship of R'hllor had been interrupted in the middle of Benerro's sermon by that Westerosi slaver pushing a path through the worshippers like the godless outlander he was. One had sought to stop him, but Jorah drew his sword so fast, and he wanted no bloodshed to disturb their prayers. The slave with the horsehead on his cheek could tell her how much the horse and saddle were bought and sold for - and she would know, as Tyrion did, that Jorah really was looking for a ship. The ironsmith could have told how he attached the fetters after hours.The cutpurse urchin could tell her how he got his blood nose. The Widow would know that the skinflint knight passed by her jeweled tiara to the leathermakers, where he haggled down those gloves, saving his silver for himself. . She would hear of how cruelly the Bear knight had yanked his little slave along, until they arrived at the inn where she could see them herself. She might not have heard all these details at once, or from the one source, but the inn was rocking that night, and with her home-town advantage, it's a fair bet she knew more about what Jorah did last night than he did himself, and had heard the whole tale by the time she had finished her breakfast The recent history of Jorah and Tyrion would not be all or even the most important of the things she had heard last night. She was bankrolling captains and If she didn't already, she would want to know about Griff. Locally, she would know the names of the men Tyrion heard duelling last night, and which one died, and how, and why. Her circle is not just slaves and traders, she still knows people inside the black wall of Volantis Living on the docks between the river and the sea, the Widow receives information from other places too - Qarth, Westeros, Tolos, Yunkai ... and when Greenguts and Dornish Gerrold and Frog set off, whose captain gave the Windblown passage? With whom could they warehouse their niello plate armour and golden dragons, who gets the bailee copy of the duplicate receipt signed with their real names? There are so many interesting things about the widow. Like the gifts she has received that morning The fan suggests Qarth to me. Penny claims "the streets are paved with jade", and if this is not exactly true, there are at least jade fakes on the bronze snake arch (ACoK Ch 27 Daenerys II), and on the miniature knights that Xaro gave her, on one of the chairs of the Pureborn, and the crown the Tourmaline Brotherhood gave her. Was the widow given her fan by a representative of the Pureborn? Or the Guild of Spicers? Or the Tourmaline Brotherhood? Or perhaps she was visited by Xaro Xoan Daxos of the Thirteen (whose nose has jade flakes encrusting it). Silver goblets are associated with Starks. King Robert and Joffrey have jeweled goblets, Mace Tyrell has a gold one, Xaro has a matched pair in gold and jade. Most goblets are unspecified. There are silver cups in Renly's green silk pavilion. Lord Hewett, Tyrell bannerman, also has a silver cup But Eddard Stark drinks from a silver goblet with the life-like head of a silver direwolf raised on its side, at the welcoming feast for King Robert at Winterfell. Bran drinks from the same goblet at the harvest feast, and fArya toys with it at her wedding. Catelyn toys with her own silver goblet at Riverrun after she interrogated Cleos Frey. The only non-Stark silver goblets in the book are this one, and the pair brought out for wine with Eddard Stark by Tobho Motte, the Qohorik armorer who employed Gendry and knew the spells that could forge Valyrian steel anew. I remember seeing a bronze dagger like that (AGoT Ch 64 Daenerys VIII) Dany also saw bronze daggers for sale along the waterfront bazaar at Qarth. Lord Jeor Mormont says ( ASoS Ch 33 Samwell II) Ygritte's knife might be made of bronze (ASoS Ch 41 Jon V) Or of stolen steel or iron. After all, she is no Thenn. Bran saw a larger bronze blade in Winterfell's past (ADwD Ch 34 Bran III) At the Kingsmoot, Erik Anvilbreaker and the Drumm opened chests with gifts of bronze that might have Included daggers. Non-dagger bronze things with runes include the Crown of Winter and Bronze Yohn's armor. The unsullied have bronze name discs with Valyrian glyphs, on their sword hilts. On daggers or not, the runes might constitute a magic spell, although maybe it takes blood, or a life, to activate the magic. It is unlikely that the Widow of the Waterfront is being approached by Thenns, Wildlings, or First Men. So I guess one of her first three visitors was an Ironborn pirate, or a plundering Dothraki, or a maege from the hinterlands of Slaver's Bay. My best guess would be an Ironborn Pirate, based on the man with the splotchy purple beard, talking to his friend in the common tongue. (While Tyrion knew enough Tyroshi to summon an ale, call a man a cheat, and curse the Gods, he has some difficulty understanding things like monkeys and dwarf fights in any Valyrian dialect - see for example when the innkeep and the widow exchange words about Penny. Remember, he had been practicing his Volantene. Yet he overheard this man's exchange with effortless and perfect comprehension.) I'm thinking the "Tyroshi" might be one of the crew with green and purple beards that Brienne had spotted drinking at the Stinking Goose. Probably part of the same lot that was rumbled by Lady of the Tower outside of Oldtown a fortnight before the Cinnamon Wind reached Oldtown. (The Oldtowners not suspecting there was more than one ship) One of his crew mates might have been the Tyroshi that presented Cersei with the head of her Valonqar. We know the juggler murdered at the Temple of Trios really was Tyroshi. But his murderer/s, who knows? Stuffing his body into the mouths of Trios seems disrespectful to the God of Tyrosh. Daario has died his beard purple and gone to the Lhazarene hills, but his beard is more likely to be oiled than splotchy. His swagger and finery and his novelty-handled arakh and stiletto are not mentioned. Plus, Daario would be speaking Tyroshi. Euron, with his eye-patch/red eye, his blue lips, his black hair, and disruptive tendancies, is nowhere to be seen. Given the surprising number of Westerosi speakers in earshot, the conversation between Tyrion and Jorah gets very indiscreet So even if she started with little knowledge of Jorah (which I doubt), she knew him better when they parted company. Her potential influence is not lost on Tyrion. He doesn't order her to do stuff for money, he doesn't give her bs answers, he makes her smile, he listens and he hears what she is putting down. He flatters her with his hypothetical vote. He shows compassion for Penny. He smiles, he says thankyou when Jorah says "Qarth is not our destination." Tyrion knows the widow is able to tell the crew of the Shy Maid of his fate. Jorah is as ignorant of the widow in the end as he was in the beginning. He probably thinks she is talking out of her arse. But we know the Golden Company is heading west. That Tyrion is not the only dwarf trying to escape Cersei. That the Triarchs of Volantis did drop off their part of the Golden Company in the Stepstones. Dany has banned slave trading, and closed Meereen's famous fighting pits. The Widow has heard from a Yunkai'i source about Hazzea and Missandei and Irri and Daario. She knows Tolos and New Ghis and Qarth have allied with Yunkai against Dany. She knows Belicho will win the election and her captains will be sailing Volantene troops east.She knows Benerro has forseen that the Selaesori Qhoran won't make it to Qarth, and will get them to Slaver's bay. She knows Dany exiled Lord Jorah, and Tyrion is his gift to her. Or rather, he hopes will be his ticket of admission. For a couple of there things, we will have to wait for Winds, but most of this is confirmed in the books. So it is proof the widow isn't talking out of her butt.
  7. Pulled up this quote while compiling a post on free companies (ACoK Ch 30 Arya VII) 'Oh, that is interesting', I thought 'what spearmen are they?' Searching the book for spearmen soon showed me the only ones with the (green) colored stripes on their cheeks (ADwD Ch 22 Tyrion VI) So, these spearmen are former slave soldiers from Volantis. Fascinating. And then, I noticed this (ADwD Ch 6 The Merchant's Man) The Brave Companions have escaped Unsullied! The Tigers of Volantis are Unsullied from Astapor! (Well, from everywhere, driven by Dothraki and pirate slavers to Astapor as boys). At least, in Quentyn's understanding. ETA: And just now (ASoS Ch 23 Dany II) This explains why (ASoS Ch 8 Daenerys I)
  8. Dany reminds me of Alexander the Great, so I would say Euclid. The "no royal road to geometry" anecdote. (Which was probably what Euclid said to Ptolmy I Soter, not Alexander the Great, as I was first told, but oh well). I can see Tyrion acting as a poor man's Euclid and telling Dany there is no Dragon Road to geometry.
  9. (ACoK Ch 42 Davos II) One could as easily accuse Renly of killing Robert by letting the boar gore him.
  10. My idea of a foil is a character that exists mainly to reveal facets of another character. The best example I can think of is Mrs Elton in Emma. In ASoIaF, Hodor has acted as a foil, especially for Bran and for the Walders. And Maester Luwin and Osha. Good eggs treat Hodor with respect. Maester Luwin is a foil for Osha, and for anyone expounding on magic and mythical beings. But especially Osha. He has done a lot of research on these subjects for a guy that doesn't believe in them. Shae was mostly a foil for Tyrion. Tommen is a foil for Bran Barristan is more than a foil for Jorah Mormont, but making them both Dany's Kingsguard makes him work that way. Jeor Mormont works as a foil for his son, and for Jon Snow. Sam Tarly works as a foil for Jon Snow - their training, fighting, persuading and lovemaking styles make a strong contrast. Balon works as a foil for Eddard when it comes to Theon's father figures. Tyrion makes an explicit comparison between JonCon and Lord Tywin. Lord Tywin is a foil for Eddard Stark, so JonCon also seems to me to be a foil for Eddard Stark. Tywin and Eddard are father figures the way Catelyn and Cersei are mother figures. Of course, fathers and mothers are always made the foils of their protagonist children, which are mostly Tywin and Jon (Yes, I know Cersei is his sister, but she is the closest thing to a mother he ever had). So when it comes to family and upbringing, Tyrion is a foil for Jon. Robb is another foil. For Jon there's the legitimate vs bastard thing. And, in a sense, for Theon.
  11. (AGoT Ch 60 Jon VIII) (ACoK Ch 68 Jon VIII)
  12. Jorah has been around the docks of Volantis often enough to know better than to go from ship to ship seeking passage to Meereen, like Quentyn did. He knows of the Widow, he knows her influence on the docks, but he doesn't know her. The gloves and the disrespect show that. (ASoS Ch 27 Tyrion VIII) whomever it was that told Jorah, they didn't tell him this time around. I notice the innkeep of the Merchant House told Quentyn he would need to rent a hathay if he was seeking passage east from the captains in the harbour, and directed him to the slave-ship Adventure. He didn't mention the Widow that breakfasted each morning in his own inn. Jorah knows, and that is insider knowledge. Of course he hasn't had dealings with her personally before. She doesn't deal in slaves or bankroll slave captains. She is not charmed by his black looks, any more than his cheap gloves. The sight of Tyrion interested her enough for her to question him. She points out that the slave traders will be offering passage to Meereen for Jorah and his sword soon enough, when Volantis declares war on the Breaker of Chains. Then she asks him directly She laughs with disbelief at Jorah's noble answer and reproves him after Tyrion gives his own answer with So yeah, she knows a slaver when she sees one carting his fettered slave along with him while he tries to win her favor. It is Tyrion she assists, speaking to him directly after Penny attacks, because Volantis is a dangerous place for dwarfs. She has only scorn for Jorah. Jorah stays with the ships while Dany and Barry deal with Kraznys. We don't get to see how he interacts with the slavers of Astapor, or their attempts to ingratiate themselves to Dany through him, if any are made. Just as we don't see anyone attempting to ingratiate themselves to Reznak or Daario in order to gain an audience with the Queen, although we know they have. (ASoS Ch 27 Dany III) This is remarkably close to what Jorah foresaw before they arrived in Astapor (ASoS Ch 8 Dany I) Jorah adds that, if she isn't given slaves as gifts in exchange for a look at her dragons, he has gone through the trade goods in the holds of the ship and what better use for Illyrio's tiger skins? (Plus he goaded Viserys to his death. No wonder he would rather have 1003 swords at his back the next time he sees Illyrio) He gives an accurate estimate. Because he knows his trade. They don't go into Yunkai (they are at least a league from its walls when they deal with its host), so they don't meet any slave traders there. Jorah doesn't seem to know Grazdan mo Eraz, but Grazdan knows to treat Dany like a Dothraki Kahl, and buy her off with a chest of gold. Jorah shows his familiarity with the sellsword captains, though it is ambiguous, not explicit. He might be guessing when he supposes Prendahl has kin in Astapor. Or he might be downplaying his more certain knowledge. With Mero, it seems to me they know each other much better than than they are letting on. It is as if Mero knew what game they were playing as soon as he saw Jorah. That Mero is really talking to him when he addresses Dany, almost winking at him. While Barristan has heard of Mero even in Westeros, Jorah knows him as a fighter well enough to know that it would take a knight with the skill of Barristan the Bold to kill him, no mere squire with a stick. When they get to Meereen ... one day I am going to post a huge essay-like analysis on Meereen. There is more than one person in Dany's retinue who has worked with the slave traders of Meereen in the past. More than one has traded slaves in the past. But after the 163 masters died in the plaza, and everyone's past sins are forgiven, nobody recognises their old china any more. Not if they want to live. And Jorah knows the smell of a slaver's galley.(ADwD Ch 40 Tyrion IX)
  13. To be fair, I think Robert was intending to wed Eddard (well, Sansa) to the Lannister cause, to attempt to mend the Stark enmity for the Lannisters (which, apart from Eddard's hatred of Lord Tywin, seems based entirely on mere prejudice.). I wish I knew if it was his own idea or Cersei's, and if Jon Arryn had told him that Cersei's children were not his. I am not sure why Robert was so keen to have Jaime Lannister as Warden of the East - with what we know of the Lords of the Vale, it seems a bit of a punishment position for Jaime when he had a fast sword hand and didn't think too hard about things. Eddard saw immediately that Stannis would be better able to defend the Vale from Dragonstone. But Robert wouldn't have it. I can see why Robert wouldn't be thrilled to let the warden be whomever Lysa chose, or nominally SweetRobin. But not why he couldn't chose a Lord of the Vale, or Ser Brynden Tully, if he was intent on slighting Stannis? He really didn't want to give Stannis a damn thing. When he learns SweetRobin is going to Dragonstone, Lord Tywin steps up, and King Robert insists. Nowadays I wonder, did Lord Walder see Jon Arryn's death coming? He tried to get SweetRobin as his ward (and press the Walders on the Arryns) at Joffrey's tourney, a fortnight before Jon died. How would he know? Robert and Tywin made their grab for SweetRobin after Jon Arryn died, when there was clearly something to be gained by holding the heir to the Eyrie. Lysa would be much more inclined to chose a husband the King approved, for example. Jon Arryn allowing Stannis to taking her son to ward at Dragonstone seems to have precipitated Lysa's poisoning her husband. Except the poisoning happened a fortnight after Jon had made that clear to his wife (and Lord Walder) that SweetRobin was going to Dragonstone. Now, it seems like Stannis was already planning to leave the King's council and court, and superintend the building of the Royal Navy at Dragonstone. Even Lysa would be able to see she was over-reacting if being warded to Stannis had only meant SweetRobin moving from the Tower of the Hand to Stannis's rooms in the Red Keep, wouldn't she? But SweetRobin is only five. Quentyn Martell was at least six when he was fostered to Yronwood, and that was done to demonstrate the Martells goodwill after Lord Edgar dying after his duel with Oberyn. (Presumably because Quentyn was born in the year Lord Edgar died?) Mellario thought that was too young, and it seems most pages have double digit ages, so what's the sudden interest in getting as many leagues between SweetRobin and his mother as possible? Especially when Stannis has been serving at court those past five years. But maybe he intended to stay, and just pack the boy off with Selyse and Shireen. But why? Both Dragonstone and the Twins seem like cold, damp places for a delicate child. Lots of steps for Robin to fall down in a shaking fit at Dragonstone. Lots of bigger boys to bully him when he wets himself at the Twins. Then, through the entire first book, Stannis does nothing. It is a genius move on GRRM's part, giving us absolutely no character development on him for the entire first book, to just not reveal anything, until even the least curious readers start asking "yeah, what is he doing on Dragonstone? And what's Theon Greyjoy's deal? And will we ever see Dorne?". But from the character's point of view - why does Stannis head to Dragonstone as soon as Robert leaves King's Landing? Here is his opportunity to be acting Hand. How does his duty demand that he leave the government of the realm to Littlefinger, Renly, Barry, and Varys? When Balon dies, the Ironborn know it is time to race home to Wyk and stake your claim, not secure Seadragon Point with the Iron Fleet. Tell them to organise a tourney and Barry and Renly go out of their tiny minds, and Littlefinger starts shaking his moneymakers. Varys seems to have noticed that Stannis has gathered a huge Navy around him and was only trying to make it larger. Robert responding by inviting all the fighting men of Westeros to gather at King's Landing, was a nice touch, diplomatic. He could see from the Lords that showed up - no Bar Emmons, Velaryons, Celtigars, Seaworths, or Florents. Apart from Anguy, precious little representation from Dorne. The North is represented mostly by people who came south with Ned. At least the Royces and Ser Hugh for the Vale, in spite of Lysa's ban. Not a huge showing from the Westerlands - perhaps because Tywin was secretly massing his banners at the border. The Riverlands, Stormlands, and Crownlands are well represented. It seems Stannis lacks common decency when he doesnt attend Robert's funeral. He claims he knew Cersei's children were illegitimate, and he had Robert's acknowledged bastard as his ward. But he gave Jon Arryn the task of telling Robert and gathering proofs (apparently studying Malleon and greyhounds is 'proofs'). He waits in King's Landing while Jon dies (Jon didn't seem to find the matter important enough to mention to Robert when he was on his deathbed). He attends the funeral, he stays until Robert leaves for Winterfell. He didn't bother inviting Edric Storm to Dragonstone which would delight Shireen, at a time when the boy's existence is a matter of no moment to anyone but himself. But he has to get SweetRobin there asap? And find himself a shadowbinder from Asshai. And sellswords from Myr and Lys. A full year later he starts with a propaganda leaflet drop. Apparently, when Renly and Robb are wearing crowns and marching armies down, he is no longer bothered about sounding incredibly self-serving when he calls Joffrey bastard. Never considered stirring when Eddard Stark told Joffrey to his face that Stannis was the rightful heir. Honestly, his own worst enemy.
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