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Lord of Raventree Hall

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About Lord of Raventree Hall

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  1. I have been thinking about this for awhile. I get that Daeron is not a pinnacle of virtue. He abandons Sam and Maester Aemon (although I think the Maester was dying either way). However, people on this forum often love Mance Raydar, another black brother who abandoned his post. I am sure Mance is personally responsible for a slew of other Ranger’s deaths. Why is Daeron for wanting freedom where Mance is loved for the same thing. Daeron claims from our earliest introduction to him that he didn’t commit the crime that landed him on the Wall, and...considering the circumstances, seems fairly possible he is telling the truth. So he has been sentenced to a life of servitude for a crime he didn’t commit. Yet, everyone just hates him on this forum. Why? I honestly just don’t get it. So I want to hear your explanations and would also like to hear from those that don’t hate him.
  2. I was wondering if there were any small events you guys wish were changed in the story. I wish Maester Aemon had stayed at Castle Black. I think Jon needed his advice, his guidance. I don’t know how much this would effect the story, but I think it would.
  3. This is a super intriguing idea. Let's say Jon is left in command. Roose basically purposely lost battles and sent Robb's bannermen away so that Robb was in a weaker position constantly from his initial battle with Tywin. If Robb say...takes less losses in the initial battle, then similar to Roose makes a move on Harrenhall, and Arya still exists in this timeline, not only does Jon take Harrenhall, but Arya is back with Jon. Now, keep in mind what this means : Catelyn knows one of her children is alive right around the time frame she released Jaime Lannister. This could potentially change that decision by Catelyn. Now, Rickard Karstark doesn't betray Robb. Let's assume in this scenario Robb does still marry Jeyne as Jon isn't with him. It would also mean Robb still sends Theon away as Jon isn't with him. Still it could signifigantly change Robb's strength and if Roose isn't there to back up Walder Frey, the old fool might not be brave enough to betray Robb. Okay, my alternate. I think Jon would be in on Robb's council, but not be his first choice to send away, so sadly I think Roose still is sent that way. However, that means Jon is an additional voice to Catelyn's saying "Don't send Theon." Two people who disagree normally agreeing on this could mean...he sends someone else. I would guess not Jon though, probably another lord. Rickard Karstark maybe? Crazy though, Robb leads Jon in charge of his troops in the Riverlands (rather than his uncle Edmure) and lets Jon know his plan with Tywin. Or maybe Jon even guesses it. Tywin goes west, Jon descends, and they hammer and anvil style destroy Tywin's army (with some direwolf like shenanigans to boot). Tywin does not go to join the Tyrells, I'm not actuallly sure how that would impact that battle. Would the Tyrells still go to attack Stannis? Would they make the alliance at all without Tywin? What if they hear of Tywin's defeat before they make their move on the Blackwater? Anyways, I think this scenario seriously changes the outcome of the war. I think this topic points out a pretty big fact actually : Without each of the small things happening step by step, Robb should have done better in the War of 5 Kings then he did. Catelyn had to release Jaime. Rickard Karstark had to betray him. Robb had to get the news of Bran/Rickon's death at the right time. Jeyne had to ....find him sexually attractive I guess lol. Theon had to be chosen to go deal with his father. Roose had to be the general chosen to take the Stark foot. Arya had to not make it to Catelyn (something she certainly could have done with a variety of other individual instances). Oh yeah, Theon had to release Ramsay from the dungeon and then stupidly trust Ramsay. Obviously any story has interrelating parts, but I think especially when it comes to Robb, a series of bad events had to have happened one after another for Robb to lose so horribly.
  4. ...Sorry for...debating/discussing on a forum meant for debate and discussion. Ill keep in mind to make short sarcastic or disagreement quips from now on. Oh wait, you aren't the forum police and can't tell others how to act. Sorry, I forgot that.
  5. Lol, just because you don't understan her arc (which I am guessing you don't) does not make her two dimensional. I am a gender non- conforming man, and her experiences are extremely accurate to how it feels to not conform to the gender norms of that you were assigned too. As well, her careful methodical way of thinking is entirerly realistic. She is not two dimensional at all, and if you feel the need to come on here and insult others choices, I would suggest actually backing it up with evidence. Brienne is two dimensional from Jaime's perspective for about two seconds, before he realizes there is more to her than he thought. Her speech to Catelyn when she offers her her allegience is one of my favorite, and she recognizes something about Catelyn that no other character seems to recognize. Brienne's feelings on Dick Crabb are much more complicated then how other characters would treat him. How she treats Pod. I mean period, a strong female character in fantasy that actually comes with the issues that would come with breaking gender roles? In many ways as well she reminds me of her possible ancestor, Ser Duncan fhe Tall. Her stubborn resolve, her ability to stand up for what is right. Other characters often take te path of least resistance, Brienne does not. That isn't two dimensional, those character traits are rare. I could literally go on and on step by step on her gender non-conforming storyline and why it is accurate and complex. God, did you read her section, or were you just bored because you didn't relate to her?
  6. Okay Orm, enough. You, Orm, were ranting and raving about, "What a great guy Robert was" and "I don't care about Cersei's rape becayse she is worse than Robert" and "Its not rape, just forced sex". Let us start with the last one. Rape's definition : forced sex. Done. That is what rape is. You can't redefine a word because it's defintion isn't convenient to your argument. Emotional abuse could, I suppose be on par with rape. However, an aspect of rape, is that it is indeed emotionally abusive, especially when the perpetrator intentionally downplays the rape and gaslights the victim. Now secondly, I was not "ranting" anymore than you are. In fact, go check how much yiu have posted compared to me on this topic. Pot calling the Kettle black much? Thirdly, I did not "air" my personal story. Not at all. Show me where I did? I didn't. I clearly stated the shitty things Robert. I repeatedly told you that I agreed with that Cersei was worse than Robert, and merely that Cersei doing bad things doesn't excuse Robert doing bad things, but most specifically that no one deserves to be raped. You have repeatedly used straw man arguments against me, misconstrued my words, and blatantly lied about what I have said. Enough. If you do it again, we are going to have a real problem. This isn't Orm's facebook, this is a forum where people share ideas. People get to disagree with you, and shouldn't have their names dragged for doing so. Keep my name out of your mouth (or rather out of your...writing) unless you are speaking to me directly. Lastly, it isn't suprising that Barristan and Jaime wouldn't mention Cersei's rape. Cersei was not screaming "I am being raped" as many marital and date rape victims don't. Many people, like you are doing right here, downplay marital and date rape as not actually rape, for this very reason. Cersei said no. Robert had sex with her anyway. That is rape. Can I seriously suggest something to you Orm? I really think you should learn more about rape. If you are interested, I can DM you links. I think you will say no, but seriously, I think you need to read victims stories and try ro put yourself in their shoes. And finally, I hate having to say this again, but : Rape is bad Orm. It is indeed as bad as emotional abuse. Rape is bad Ormz
  7. Can we please, please just agree to disagree. I think we have fundamental agreements here, and we honestly don't need to continue this age thing. I don't care. I don't care if she is 13 or 14 okay? End part about Tyrion I agree with you completely. Like point for point. He treats those below him badly and that gets glossed over. Even his interactions with Bron (although mostly good) show his disdain for those from a lower class, as he often talks about Bron being insolent in cases where a different character (say Eddard) might see the way Bron was talking as friendly. As I've reread the books (now on my fourth time), I've picked up the distinct difference in how the Lannisters and Starks treat those of a "lower class" like servants. George clearly wrote this way on purpose and I think it shows his writing talent and his knowledge of how the environment you are raised in has lasting effects on you. Even Sansa, with all her fantasies, has fundamentally more respect for servants than the Lannisters do. And Tyrion's mysogyny becomes more....grating on my nerves the more times I read the book. I still enjoy his chapters, but his treatment of Shae, and his ideas about their relationship...make me increasingly annoyed with each reread. As GRRM has said many times, Tyrion is his most gray character, and I think it is the fact that he has a fandom that defends his every action and treats him like some perfect hero makes me dislike him more than if he didn't have this kind of treatment in the fandom (same for Stannis). However, Tyrion plainly raped a prostitute and ...terrorized another prostitute in ADwD, so.....there is also just that. And finally, Tyrion's murder of Shae. It is something I think the show, and people who watch the show, have turned so that Tyrion looks better. In the show, Shae attacks him, then he kills her. In the books, he just kills her, while she begs him for her life. It's pretty freaking dark, especially if you think of all the times he claimed he "wanted her to be happy". Yes, she did betray him...but did she have a choice? We never did find out enough there....but even if she willingly jumped at an opportunity to betray him, murder of your former "loved" one is still pretty dark. Wait, one more, Tyrion's constantly acting like he has it the worst in the world because of being a little person, meanwhile...he is extremely wealthy, well educated, and has power up tell ASoS that he repeatedly acts like is "nothing". He treats those below him fairly badly as you mentioned, and I mentioned above..and just generally has a victim complex that while warranted sometimes, is other times imagined (or over-exaggerated).
  8. (Imagine me expelling air slowly in an irritated manner) : Orm. Orm, Orm, Orm. Straw man argument numbero dos. Again, you are right Orm, Cersei does many bad things. I am not apologizing for her behavior. Saying, "Raping Cersei is bad." does not apologize for her actions. Rape should not be used as punishment. Do I really have to go through my rape explanation again? Well once more, everyone in the crowd, "Rape is bad. Rape done to bad people is bad. Rape done to good people is bad. Rape is always bad." Again, and only so you can't use this argument against me since apparently you will : Cersei does many evil things. Killing Barra is evil. Trying to kill Gendry is evil. Whipping Alaya is evil. Imprisoning and torturing Sansa is evil. Killing Lady was evil. Do I have to list her every evil action just so I can explain to you that rape is bad and that Cersei doesn't deserve to be raped...that in fact, *gasp*, no one deserves to be raped...ever..in any circumstances. Straw man argument number..3. Again, your straw man arguments are somehow getting worse. You've now decided because I think rape is evil, that I don't care about murder. This leap is so great I don't actually know how to respond to it. Orm : People don't have to mention other bad things when talking about every bad thing. "See the pattern?" The pattern that you've created in your mind? No, Orm, I don't see that pattern, lol, and neither do you. You just made up an argument to try to make yourself look better. Just one point I want to make : You realize rape can be a form of brutalizing right? Just wondering. Brutalizing def. in case you wondered : 'inducing cruelty, violence, or insensitivity to the pain of others by repeated exposure to violence.' Rape, especially repeated rape, say after a war, or in an arranged marriage, could certainly be included under this definition. An example I could think of would be Jeyne Pool, who is obviously brutalized by Ramsay.
  9. No, rape is horrible. Drugging someone's drink and then allowing themselves to set up their own death < Raping repeatedly. Yeah, I'll say that is the case. However, murder is bad. Agreed. Rape is right up next to it though. Like right there with it. I do recognize the difference in being inhuman, do you? You clearly are downplaying rape repeatedly, while as I have not actually downplayed Cersei's actions at any point. Why don't you go on back there, use some reading comprehension, and realize I haven't once downplayed Cersei's negative actions. Not once. Perhaps you are confused because I said Cersei wasn't evil incarnate. That is my bad. What I meant is she does have nuance, even if that nuance is small. She is one of the most evil characters in the story, but she is still a person who loves her children. She loved Tywin too, even though he treated her like crap. However, I have no wish to forgive her actions, only to say that this (a quote from you) : "A horrible monster with no redeeming quality, empathy or remorse" is not the case. She does have redeeming qualities, however limited they are.....and she seems like she has empathy for her children in her PoV. I am rereading the book...literally now. Robert is an asshole from his very introduction. Cersei is an asshole/evil person from her very introduction. The only reason we have a somewhat positive view of Robert is because we get him from Eddard's perspective. He is a truly horrible King, a lazy person, a bad father (remember he thinks those kids are his), a bad friend (he literally never listen's to Eddard, ever), a horrificly horrible husband, and for a kicker, a bad brother. The only one who is apologist here is you : You are clearly a "Robert apologist". I have never apologized for Cersei's actions. I have never acted as though Cersei was not a horrible person. I can dislike Robert, and dislike Cersei even more (as is the case). Amazingly, people can dislike more than one person. GRRM writes gray characters. That is why I love him. Straw man argument alert. Straw man argument alert. Orm has made up things that Lord of Raventree Hall never said. Actually what I said was that you insulted Cersei using a sexist insult despite the fact that the character you were defending was more of that word. You then made up some illogical crap because you don't have any actual defense of your sexist language. So, why did you use the insult? Why did you say this if you have no problem with sleeping around? : "just not a horrible hoe in general"
  10. No, that reason is sexism. Just like it is in the modern day. Sexism is the reason you are looking for.
  11. Again, Cersei is bad. Please quote me where I am making an argument that Cersei is not an evil person. She has about one redeeming quality.....and everything else she does is deeply selfish and downright evil in many cases. Tommen and Myrcella (I can't include Joffrey here) are not evil people. In fact, they are repeatedly shown to be normal, innocent, and even downright kind, children. Yes, I will say...I guess, lying about a children's paternity could be slightly worse than admitting a child's paternity I guess. However, there is the argument that while Robert is allowed to sleep with whoever he pleases, Cersei would be hanged for cheating on Robert openly. I mean....unless I am reading the books wrong, that seems like an actual possibility. Now, let's focus on the core here : Mya, Jon, Tommen, and Myrcella are the same Lee-Sensei. None of them committed crimes. They are all innocent of their parents choices. I will now quote myself, "Are you a person who would hate Jon Snow for being a bastard? Mya Stone? Because the same logic could be applied to them. They were born out of wedlock, they "shouldn't exist". " So...in other words, your second point here is I guess that, no, you wouldn't hate Jon or Mya, but, yes, you would hate Tommen and Myrcella for just existing because a crime their parents committed. Wow, just wow. Do you really want to stick by this? Is this the hill you want to be known for climbing? Again, and I can't believe I have to say this again : Child murder is bad. Tommen and Myrcella do not deserve to die. They deserve to live. They did nothing wrong. If Robert kills them, he is not better than Cersei killing Mya. It is still child murder. I don't care the circumstances. They are equally evil acts. There isn't some less evil child murder. All child murder is equally evil.
  12. I actually want you and others to speak for me lol, as I'm having a lot of trouble coming up with what to say to this dude who....is clearly saying he is at least somewhat okay with rape, as long as it is done to bad people. And before, Orm, you show up here, let's quote you. You are basically saying your okay with Robert being a rapist, as long as he only rapes bad people. This means, no matter what, you are somewhat okay with rape. That is bad. You know how I said rape was bad over and over. It is because you clearly don't understand how bad it is. Raping people is bad. Raping bad people is bad. Raping good people bad. Raping people is bad. People who rape other people are bad. Period. Not, but..if the person is bad. Not, but if this, or but if that. Raping people is bad all the time no matter what. There is no case with rape like murder. For example, murdering someone to protect yourself (as you know they planned to murder you) You don't rape people to prevent other bad things. Rape is just bad, no matter what, in ever single case of it happening.
  13. ......Kay. Tommen didn't commit it. Myrcella didn't commit it. Even Joffrey, douchebag that he is, didn't commit it. See you said, "Cersei would kill Mya." I am saying, "Robert would kill Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella." Killing innocent children for the sins of another is evil. "Those kids shouldn't have existed in the first place." - man Robert apologists will stretch yo. They are children. I don't care if you think they "should have existed". Are you a person who would hate Jon Snow for being a bastard? Mya Stone? Because the same logic could be applied to them. They were born out of wedlock, they "shouldn't exist". Good god. People on this forum today. Have you'll forgotten basic moral sensibilities? Rape is bad and children murder is bad shouldn't be controversial takes.
  14. He would kill her sons and daughter if he found out that they weren't his. His death can be directly attributed to the fact that Stannis, Eddard, and Jon Arryn all are too afraid to tell him about Cersei's philandering because they don't want children to be murdered. We don't have a guarantee that Robert would kill them I guess.....but...it seems extremely likely based on what we know.
  15. Good lord I've been trying to piece together something here without using personal insults, but it is difficult. Rape is bad Orm. It is really bad. It should never be used as a form of punishment, ever. Period. No one, NO ONE, ever deserves to be raped. Also, spousal abuse is bad Orm. Using your extremely superior stength to shut up someone is abusive, period. Neither of these are comparable to ...flirting with someone in an effort to marry them? Granted, Sansa is only doing it because LIttlefinger told her too...and LIttlefinger just wants power...but....Harry is still his own person here. He can choose to not like Sansa. In real life, people certainly try to improve there station in life by marrying rich. It happens a lot. I don't necessarily think these people are good people by any stretch of the imagination....but.....a good comparison would be like....lawyers tricking their clients...or salespeople tricking people out of their money..not.....spousal abuse and rape! Orm - These are not the same things. I want to say this one more time : Rape is bad Orm. It is really really bad. Some people say they wish they would have been killed rather than raped and left alive. Rape is really really really bad Orm.
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