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IceFire125

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  1. IceFire125

    R+L=J v.165

    I'm of the opinion that Littlefinger got a hold of a message from one of Lyanna's entourage saying that she left willingly with Prince Rhaegar and his Kingsguard (without stating she was running away from King Aerys' men). He then manipulated the message that Lyanna was taken against her will by the Prince and set it up to where Brandon will receive it knowing how he will respond. It almost sounds like Littlefinger does not want Brandon to be in Riverrun for his intended purpose... marrying the lady he fought for and paid for with scars.
  2. IceFire125

    R+L=J v.165

    At the Great Council when the Great Lords of Westeros elect Jon as their king.
  3. IceFire125

    R+L=J v.165

    I agree Varys is not omniscient. In fact, we find out about the loyalty of "his" little birds as not always loyal or suspect of not being his own. The conversation between Tyrion and Varys as they go through the tunnels, regarding Stannis knowing about the King's (Robert) children being illegitimate and bastards born of incest between Jaime and Cersei, thus making the claim of being the true king of Westeros. Noticed the info about Varys' little birds and spies... “I am pleased to hear it, my lord. Some of your sister’s hirelings are mine as well, unbeknownst to her. I should hate to think they had grown so sloppy as to be seen.” ... ...but I find it best to err on the side of caution.” “How is it a brothel happens to have a secret entrance?” “The tunnel was dug for another King’s Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence.” “And yet you knew of it.” “Little birds fly through many a dark tunnel. Careful, the steps are steep.” ... Tyrion adjusted the heavy cloak and paced restlessly. “You missed a lively council. Stannis has crowned himself, it seems.” “I know.” “He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion.” “Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard’s hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear.” The eunuch’s laugh was not his usual giggle, but deeper and more throaty. “Someone like you, perchance?” “Am I suspected? It was not me.” “If it had been, would you admit it?” “No. But why should I betray a secret I have kept so long? It is one thing to deceive a king, and quite another to hide from the cricket in the rushes and the little bird in the chimney. Besides, the bastards were there for all to see.” “Robert’s bastards? What of them?” “He fathered eight, to the best of my knowing,” Varys said as he wrestled with the saddle. “Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens … and as ill-omened, it would seem. So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister’s thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse.” Tyrion shook his head. If she had borne only one child for her husband, it would have been enough to disarm suspicion … but then she would not have been Cersei. “If you were not this whisperer, who was?” “Some traitor, doubtless.” Varys tightened the cinch. “Littlefinger?” “I named no name.” ----- I believe at this moment GRRM is speaking to the readers through Varys and Tyrion regarding Jon: So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister’s thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse. For Varys it was easy to tell that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen wasn't Robert's children because all of Robert's bastards had black hair. It was easy to think that Ned's bastard he took up North was his because he has the Stark look. Tyrion shook his head. If she had borne only one child for her husband, it would have been enough to disarm suspicion Tyrion thoughtfully repeats what Varys said (in how to protect her kin's children), however, add this to how it relates to Ned's thoughts to protect Jon. It wouldn't have been enough to disarm suspicion that Jon is not Ned's son if he didn't claim the boy as his bastard son. Similarly, GRRM basically shouts to the reader when Stannis and Davos were talking about sacrificing Edric Storm for the realm, that it was the child's duty to die. Likewise, we recall back to Ned, in the sacrifice he went through for Jon. Jon was the realm, he was everything, he is royalty, trueborn and the king that Ned vividly remembered the three Kingsguard died for at the tower. “Your Grace,” said Davos, “the cost …” “I know the cost!... what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?” “Everything,” said Davos, softly.
  4. IceFire125

    Quick question for R+L=J believers.

    I know, my reply to Dorian Martell's son.
  5. IceFire125

    Quick question for R+L=J believers.

    Which was a leap in the first place on my part, because I was trying to fit that with the second Long Night. It is not the bronze or runic character of the armor, but the how befitting Jon's dream. It would be a twist of course if GRRM did mean that bronze/runic armor was the "ice" armor in Jon's dream, because the Lord Commander Other may indeed wore an "ice" armor. The legend fits the timeline, it was before the Andals came over with iron steel. Azor Ahai / Last Hero may have worn the old bronze armor, but if OR with Valyrian steel = Dragonsteel in play, I took a step back in holding that theory as likely. Until GRRM give us more info, of course.
  6. IceFire125

    Quick question for R+L=J believers.

    Same here, but when GRRM release TWOW The Forsaken sample chapter ...
  7. IceFire125

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    If he was king... but he wasn't at the time. And those gods were, is, and will be the ones to influence and make sure Jon is king in the end.
  8. IceFire125

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    However you want to slice it, Ned did commit treason for not allowing Jon's right as heir and King of Westeros to be realized, he instead supported the usurper, his friend Robert. But the gods made sure Ned got the "King's Justice" in the end for this very treason. Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. “Keep the pony well in hand,” he whispered. “And don’t look away. Father will know if you do.” Bran kept his pony well in hand, and did not look away. His father took off the man’s head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched. ... He put a hand on Bran’s shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. “You did well,” Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice. -- Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, “But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!”
  9. IceFire125

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    Wrong question. OP should ask these questions: Why are majority members and admins/owners of westeros.org board have declared that R+L=J theory is more likely true and fit to explain Jon's true parentage in the overall story of ASOIAF? Why can't alternative theories posted on youtube and other forums be of equal authority than westeros.org? Why is westeros.org the forum people look to for where theories are to be tested, picked apart and to see how they make narrative and thematic sense?
  10. IceFire125

    R+L=J v.165

    You can also add the symbolism and attribute to Targaryenism with Ash and Cinders... She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder. Only death can pay for life. And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children. The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world. When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away … yet she was unhurt. The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals. - Dany AGOT (hatching of dragons) Ash and Cinders... “Down,” the prince commanded. You must not let him smell your fear. “Down, down, down.” He brought the whip around and laid a lash across the dragon’s face. Viserion hissed. And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!” Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream. - Dragontamer ADWD (Quentyn facing Viserion and Rhaegal) Ash and Cinders laying under the snow... It was warmer in the godswood, strange to say. Beyond its confines, a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice, and hoarfrost sparkled in the moonlight on the broken panes of the Glass Gardens. Drifts of dirty snow had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them. Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders... - The Prince of Winterfell ADWD (Theon at Winterfell) “I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?” Robert snorted. “Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I’ve never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?” “Likely they were too shy to come out,” Ned jested. He ould feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. “Kings are a rare sight in the north.” Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended. - Eddard AGOT (King Robert visits Winterfell) Ash and Cinders, Kings and Dragons... “His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.” Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.” “Kings and dragons.” Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. - Jon ADWD
  11. IceFire125

    R+L=J v.165

    I posted this at another thread a while back, but since it's relevant to the discussion, I wanna share it here as well. I've long believed, Jon is GRRM's answer to JRRT's Aragorn. If we are to believe the theory that Jon will be King Aegon VII... Then I like how this is truly GRRM's answer to JRRT's Aragorn... Make sure that it is the real Strider. There are many strange men on the roads. His true name is Aragorn. All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. -[The Song of Aragorn in Gandalf's letter to Frodo.]- There was a long silence. At last Frodo spoke with hesitation. ‘I believed that you were a friend before the letter came,’ he said, ‘or at least I wished to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would – well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.’ ‘I see,’ laughed Strider. ‘I look foul and feel fair. Is that it? All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.’ ‘Did the verses apply to you then?’ asked Frodo. ‘I could not make out what they were about. But how did you know that they were in Gandalf ’s letter, if you have never seen it?’ ‘I did not know,’ he answered. ‘But I am Aragorn, and those verses go with that name.’ - The Fellowship of The Ring. ---- “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.” ... Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob. “Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”
  12. This is related to the discussion. It's this quote that is making me still wanting Jon's Targaryen name to be 'Aemon' and not Aegon. However, I'm at about 50/50 on both. Regardless, it relates to Jon's royal connection with House Targaryen... a royal blood connection. Maester Aemon sighed. “Have you heard nothing I’ve told you, Jon? Do you think you are the first?” He shook his ancient head, a gesture weary beyond words. “Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children …” **Like Aemon, figuratively... Jon was literally helpless as a suckling babe.
  13. The passage above, Jon was not in low-esteem, in fact, he made sure that he's surrounded by his own retinue (since he's a Lord Commander) so that Queen Selyse wouldn't mistake him for a stableboy. This shows that he has pride, at least in front of the queen. Because from what he's heard, she's the type to generalize and look down on others before her. Jon wanna make sure that he stands out and not just a regular brother of the NW. The point was that his thoughts give away that subtlety, the "call back" to a remembrance of another individual that was mistaken for a stableboy. This is classic GRRM's three-level-type of revelation. That individual was a hidden Targaryen prince and Jon is very much a hidden Targaryen prince as well. That is the core point that GRRM hearkened and called us, the readers, to remember, the certain stableboy individual in that very thought by Jon.
  14. Egg, a royal prince who later become King Aegon V, was mistaken as a stableboy. And Jon? It was his thought that gives away the parallel... Queen Selyse descended upon Castle Black... He met the queen’s party by the stables, accompanied by Satin, Bowen Marsh, and half a dozen guards in long black cloaks. It would never do to come before this queen without a retinue of his own, if half of what they said of her was true. She might mistake him for a stableboy and hand him the reins of her horse.
  15. IceFire125

    R+L=J v.165

    It doesn't. However, it gives the room for us, the readers (whom GRRM wants to give the hints to) to think further on, that the elder brother heard singers from both sides. He acknowledges both Robert and Rhaegar's claim that they are both fighting for the woman they loved. Up until that chapter of Brienne, we know that Ned does not harbor hatred and anger towards Rhaegar. We know of Robert's thoughts on Rhaegar and the Targaryens, contrast that of Ned... “And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?” His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. “I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.” Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert’s thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. In Ned's first chapter, the severity of the promise was amplified to where it's undeniable to the careful reader... He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Why such severity? “Ser Jorah would not dare deceive me,” Varys said with a sly smile. “Rely on it, my lord. The princess is with child.” “So you say. If you are wrong, we need not fear. If the girl miscarries, we need not fear. If she births a daughter in place of a son, we need not fear. If the babe dies in infancy, we need not fear.” “But if it is a boy?” Robert insisted. “If he lives?” I'm of the opinion, Ned was protecting a royal Targaryen by blood, born from the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He was protecting the true heir to the throne.
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