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Fire Eater

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    Ghost Haunting Valyria
  • Birthday 09/30/1989

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  1. The topic is about the Martells in FaB. There are a few where I don't even apply the categorization.
  2. IMO, it takes a bold, adventurous spirit to do what she did, take her entire people out of their homeland in search of a new one as well as lead armies in battle. The term adventurous itself means "willing to take risks or to try out new methods, ideas, or experiences" according to the Oxford Dictionary. And again, do you actually have anything to say at all about the Martells in FaB? That is what this topic is about.
  3. Try staying to the topic please of the Martells in Fire and Blood. Any thought? I never said Nymeria was reckless, just bold and adventurous. Those two traits led her people to safe haven. They worked to save them from the Valyrians the first time.
  4. Regarding Meria, I think the Dornish placed more blame on the Targaryens since they were the invaders burning them in dragonflame. There is also the "rally around the flag" effect. Deria never backed anyone publicly is what you mean. However, covertly is a different story. She was smart enough to keep her actions hidden.
  5. This topic is pretty self-explanatory. This is all about the Martells. I think we get a dynamic of “dry” Martells and “wet” Martells. The pre-Nymeria Martells were known for caution while Nymeria was bold and adventurous. “Dry” Martells follow the patient, cautious approach such as Doran. Then we have the “wet” Martells who are bold, reckless and adventurous such as Arianne, Oberyn, and the Sand Snakes. Meria is the first one we meet. She is easily a wet Martell. She doesn't lack for intelligence in being the only one smart enough to use guerrilla warfare against the dragons. However, her actions like throwing Lord Rosby out the window, and letting captured knights be tortured if it is true manages to take points off. It doesn't take a lot to see that mistreatment of highborn prisoners-of-war would result in their families howling for vengeance, especially with Aegon's Hand and only close friend losing a hand. Although, to be fair for the last one, she wasn't present when Wyl did that. It only resulted in making the Dornish situation worse. Nymor is a dry Martell. He manages to achieve the Martells' aim of ending the war in a way his mother couldn't: through diplomacy. What Meria couldn't win with spears, Nymor won with a letter. Deria is a dry Martell like her father. Her reign is marked by celebrating an anniversary of the peace with Aegon I and Aenys. She also gave covert support to the first Vulture King while denouncing him in public. It reminds one of Doran locking up the Sand Snakes only to be secretly supporting the Targaryen cause against the Lannisters. Morion is a wet Martell in the extreme, in that he is worse than Oberyn and even, the Sand Snakes. He departs from his forebears in waging not a war to defend Dorne from Targaryen invaders, but invading the Targaryen kingdom. He thought he had a chance at conquering the stormlands against the rest of the Seven Kingdoms combined and the Targaryens' dragons, which he thought he could counter with scorpions and crossbows. He was raised on stories of Dornish resistance to Aegon and his sisters. He got stories of glory, but missed the parts that would have made him think twice. For starters, the grievous price Dorne paid with every castle burned in dragonflame. Meraxes being killed by a scorpion amounts more to pure luck since scorpions are siege weapons designed for large, stationary targets and are difficult to effectively aim, especially against a moving target in the sky covered in armored scales. It was a one in a million shot with the bolt firing from the exact right place at the exact right time. He didn't even concern himself with potential retaliation from the Targaryens for the invasion. The result was the most lopsided, disastrous and humiliating defeat in Dornish history: every man fielded in the Dornish army was killed while the Targaryens got zero casualties. It wasn't a battle, it wasn't even a slaughter, it was a barbecue. For all intents, and purposes I'm calling the battle "The Fishfry." His Fishfry earns him the status of the DUMBEST Prince of Dorne if not the dumbest Martell, in history. Qoren may have fought Daemon in the Stepstones to avoid an old rival family from gaining control of a sea lane that has been vital for Dornish trade and potentially threaten Dorne form the Narrow Sea if Dorne ever wars with the Targaryens again. However, he stayed out of the Dance of Dragons. The memory of Aegon's Conquest and the more recent Fishfry no doubt influenced his decision. I think his descendant Arianne will likely get herself involved. He also expanded Dornish territory by taking a few of the Stepstones. although I don't know how long Dorne held onto them. Aliandra reminds me a lot of Arianne. Encouraging her lords to raid their neighbor is definitely a wet Martell thing. She also seems attracted to Oakenfist to the point that she gives him aid, and being attracted to adventurous guys with Valyrian features is definitely in line with Arianne.
  6. Fire Eater

    Will Jon be Dany's heir

    Except it doesn't take a lot to see that Robert would shortly send a force to Dragonstone with the small garrison being alone against an overwhelming force of Northmen, riverlords, Stormlanders and westermen led by none other than Tywin Lannister, and even so, that fleet doesn't change their vows or their duty as KG. Their vows would have required them to guard the royal family on Dragonstone if Jon was a bastard. Dayne's family could have provided Lyanna the protection she needed. Willis FelI was protecting a legitimate heir to the IT, and he did it knowing full well that his king was already safe somewhere else. Guarding the king, that is their highest duty. They could perform other duties so long as it didn't conflict with objective of the first: making sure the king is safe. LC Hightower tells as much to Jaime: You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him. Viserys clearly wasn't safe with an impending assault on Dragonstone, and the vows of the KG would have required them to go to Dragonstone, as choosing to stay at the ToJ with a bastard during such a time would have been a dereliction of their duty. When they started staying at the ToJ, their king, Aerys, had four KG with him. By the fall of KG, Viserys, the king in this scenario, had none. He also wasn't safe in hiding. Nothing this man did was accepted? That completely ignores his ban on the Faith Militant, which was accepted by Jaehaerys I and his successors. Viserys I naming Rhaenyra his heir is a poor analogy given Viserys I didn't have precedent and rather went against the precedent of the Great Council and Jaehaerys's ascension in doing that. Rhaegar, by contrast, had plenty of precedent for polygamy and eloping. The example you give is poor as well given, even ignoring the outright ludicrousness, Maegor had precedent for none of the things you described Saying Dragonstone isn't part of the Seven Kingdoms is really reaching, given it doesn't fit with geography. Dragonstone is clearly accepted as part of the Westeros, as it was only settled a few centuries ago by Valyrians and the population was/is mainly Westerosi and worshiped the Seven as evidenced by the septs. Dragonstone was under the Targaryen domain, but so were the rest of the Seven Kingdoms eventually. How long he was a polygamist is completely irrelevant as is how long he was a polygamist father. The High Septon still crowned him when he was already married to both his sisters. There is also no rule that says you need to be married to more than one wife X amount of years to be considered a polygamist, and the same can be said for a polygamist father. Yet, Aenys could have declared Maegor's marriage unlawful, but didn't. With attitudes toward polygamy, it actually depends which Targaryen king you're talking about. Yes, more Targaryen kings practiced monogamy than polygamy, and some were uncomfortable with polygamy like Viserys I and Jaehaerys I, the latter's case due in no small part to the memory of his uncle. However, it hasn't been effectively banned. Aegon I's polygamy was accepted despite some grumbling, and some Blackfyre supporters supported the claim that Daemon was promised Daenerys as a second wife, meaning there was at least some level of acceptance. Lyanna followed the Old Gods, and could have insisted on a marriage before a heart tree. Also, Maegor had polygamous marriages held by a septon. There is precedent from him. I also don't think I've seen the Westerosi wedding vows. How Westeros would have responded to Rhaegar taking Lyanna s a second wife? There would be shock and grumbling, especially from Robert and Rickard, but whether his marriage would be able to be dissolved is another question. The two men mentioned would push for it to be dissolved along with some other lords, but one can't get results simply by demanding them. I agree that it would be a mess. Even when the High Septon warred against the Targaryens, while he declared them abominations, and even monsters, he didn't declare either Aenys or Maegor bastards, meaning he accepted them as trueborn. Fighting the Others would require the Westerosi to unify, there is no other way. After the fight, with the shared sacrifice, they could decide that a Great Council might be the best way to solve the issue of the crown given the War for Dawn and the War of Five Kings before it would have exhausted them, and they wouldn't want to do any more fighting. They have also known no government other than a monarchy so it makes sense they would want a king. The reader knows the case, but not the public in Westeros. The only time it is mentioned is in a footnote as a theory pushed by Mushroom. The chances are the public heard a different story, the official one Velaryons put forward: Addam and Alyn are Laenor's bastard sons. The problem with the example you provided with Hugh, Nettles, etc is that none of them claimed to be the progeny of any existing Targaryens or Velaryons. I know the proof would be in the testimony, maybe something in Lyanna's crypt and Jon proving he has blood of the dragon. The problem of the theory of Ashara as Jon's mom is that Ned would have to have stayed in Dorne for at least nine months, or if Ashara gave birth before he arrived, he would have had to have visited Dorne in the middle of Robert's Rebellion. Mounting a dragon would at least make Dany consider, since Jon couldn't have gotten the blood of the dragon from the Starks. Especially with Ashara's testimony, which would be credible given she personally knew Rhaegar, and wouldn't want to disgrace his memory by putting a Stark bastard on the IT. Also, as to your last claim, where would Jon get a Dragonbinder? If he had one and used it, everyone would hear. Daenerys would recognize the sound. We can effectively rule that scenario/argument out. How? Credibly, how would his heritage be uncovered in your scenario in a way that is accepted? Viserys didn't know about Jon, and he never issued a decree officially naming her his heir like the first Viserys did. Daenerys wouldn't play that card given she already has the card of Aegon being fake. Hence, why Jon convinces Daenerys and everyone with her. It is going to be accepted and revealed, or there is no point in putting it in the story. I don't think Jon is going to be KitN. He would give WF to Rickon. His royal heritage is going to play a role as he doesn't need to be a Targaryen to fight the Others. Who says kings can't be heroes? Hell, Brandon the Builder was one of the heroes, and likely was the last hero. I don't think Dany would rule with him, as I don't think she'll survive the series. If Jon gets the crown, it wouldn't a be fairy tale ending, given he would have a huge pile of dogsh!t at the foot of the IT with a huge debt, and a realm devastated by war and winter.
  7. Well, it is an interesting theory. Mysaria's description could be that of an albino, and House Targaryen has known its share with Bloodraven, who was also a master of whisperers. There is also her sobriquet "White Worm." It could be a mishearing of the word "wyrm" which has been used as a synonym for "dragon." Mysaria also does sound a lot similar to Saera.
  8. Fire Eater

    [Spoilers] Red Herrings

    How would Euron have found out where not to be? Every person who ventured there never returned. Aerea is the only exception, and she didn't live long enough to described her experience there. There are no sources to go on that detail a safe place to land.
  9. I think pox could a synonym for syphilis in some cases.
  10. Fire Eater

    [spoilers] Aerea

    Well, Arya will have to get back to Westeros eventually, and what better way than to hide than as one of the slaves that will likely be sailing with Dany to Westeros. Also, let us not forget that Arya caught the black cat, Balerion. I saw that too. Arya caught the black cat, Balerion, which was called the "real king of this castle," and Aerea rode Balerion the Black Dread, the dragon of at least two Targaryen kings before she mounted him, three after when Viserys mounted him.
  11. Fire Eater

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    Not to mention stubbornness and just like in Stannis's case, difficult at letting things slide. At least he's not as bad as his brother Borys.
  12. Fire Eater

    [spoilers] Aerea

    In other words, Valyrian sorcerers were the magical equivalent of mad scientists. Aerea is likely the only person in history to have visited the ruined old Freehold of Valyria, and come back alive, even if only briefly, she and Balerion both. I think it is due to Balerion being a enormous dragon that allowed them to escape with their lives. Something that could leave a nine foot long gash on a dragon like Balerion with scales described as harder than steel is a force to be reckoned with. My guess, is if there are creatures like the Others with ice magic, maybe there is an equivalent with fire magic. Had she lived she would have had stories to tell. Had she lived to wed and breed, her claim would have been presented at the Great Council. That would have made things messier for the Velaryons since both groups would be pushing claims through the female line.
  13. Fire Eater

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    I didn't consider that, Helping his father come up with the idea of a Great Council was a not insignificant contribution. That's taking into account that he announced his decision to marry Jaehaerys's mother, Alyssa, without asking his leave as Rogar clearly knew was protocol. Jaehaerys, while angry, was willing to let that slide, but Rogar wasn't willing to give him the same courtesy wrt Jaehaerys's marriage.
  14. Fire Eater

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    Thankfully, no Aerion Brightflames or Aerys among Jaehaerys and Alyssa's children. A generation of no mad Targaryens is an accomplishment. Aemon and Baelon seem okay. They are friendly rivals akin to Jon and Robb, with both being skilled at arms and getting some experience in governance under their father. Their untimely deaths are unfortunate. Perhaps, the Dance of Dragons could have been avoided if either lived. Alyssa is another Arya-esque Targaryen, a non-conventional girl who prefers hobbies generally assigned for men, and she's a lot of fun. Vaegon sounds like a more dickish version of Maester Aemon. Viserra sounds awful, given the way she spoke about her late sister. Maegella seems a wonderful person, reconciling her parents twice and tending to sick kids. As for Saera, I admit dying all the KGs' cloaks pink was funny. However, she is basically the Targaryen version of a Mean Girl. She reminds me of Cersei, being a spoiled brat with a huge sense of entitlement, and also being a psychopath who consistently manipulates and uses people. The Sun and Daily Mail would have loved her. @Lord Varys agreed on Rogar and Alyssa. The guy was a windbag who acted tough, but cracked in some tough moments. When his wife was going through a difficult delivery, rather than be there for her, he got drunk. His worst moment was when he wanted to go for the nuclear option of replacing Jaehaerys with his niece Aerea, and later her twin Rhaella, ostensibly over his marriage to Alysanne, but actually over his humiliation in the yard on Dragonstone. In other words, he was willing to potentially start another civil war just to get even with a 15 year-old. When his wife states the plain truth that Jaehaerys isn't going to set aside his marriage to Alysanne, how does Rogar respond? He says: "You are weak, as weak as your first husband was, as weak as your son. Sentiment may be forgiven in a mother, but not in a regent, and never a king." That is an incredibly awful thing to say; he didn't just insult her, he basically just insulted her late husband and her remaining son to her face. In truth, it'd be ludicrous to call Jaehaerys weak over what happened on Dragonstone given he stood his ground, and didn't give an inch to Rogar, Alyssa or Septon Mattheus. Alyssa, OTOH, had to endure a lot with losing her two eldest sons and her husband. She communicated with other lords trying to win support for her family, and ran away when she got the opportunity. She was also willing to stand up to her husband and Hand, and make him resign when push came to shove. When the final moment came, she chose to sacrifice herself to save her unborn child.
  15. Fire Eater

    Will Jon be Dany's heir

    But when it was called, the decision was never refuted. It wouldn't have supported Alicent since she has no claim, but Aegon II. That too. It's literally in the name: Kingsguard. LC Hightower himself said "You swore a vow to guard the king not to judge him." The KG was founded specifically by Visenya, when the Dornish were sending assassins against Aegon, to protect the king. Regarding Rickard Throne and Willis Fell's case, it was part of a plan to keep the king safe, and they knew the king was safe as no one else knew his whereabouts. The war wasn't over yet. Whereas, the current situation with the three KG wasn't the plan. Viserys and the rest of the royal family on Dragonstone weren't in hiding, and their enemies clearly knew where they were, and they had lost the war with the remaining Targaryen loyalists dipping their banners. His marriages were accepted, and so by extension, any children he would have had through them would have been accepted as legitimate. As for Aegon, his son Aenys was by his likely second wife, Rhaenys. Aenys threatened for him to either set Alys aside or go into exile. Maegor went into exile, meaning his marriage to Alys wasn't invalidated. Maegor still had the precedent set by his father. Aegon married both his sisters before he was even crowned by the High Septon. Maegor took a second wife before he was crowned, and as I pointed out, his marriage wasn't technically invalidated as far as we know. As for Westerosi wedding vows, followers of the Old Gods have practiced polygamy from King Garland II of the Reach, Lord Lymond Hightower and King Ronard of Storm's End to Ygon Oldfather in the present. Blackfyre supporters also say that Aegon IV promised Daemon he could take Daenerys as a second wife, meaning there was some level of acceptance. What about after the War for Dawn where much of the pretenders have been killed by then leaving maybe at most 2-3? Yes, I think Daenerys would need to recognize him for him to be truly accepted. The public story, not the actual story mentioned in a footnote by Mushroom, regarding Addam Velaryon was that mounting a dragon proved his Velaryon heritage. That could provide some precedent as it would prove Jon has blood of the dragon. It couldn't have come from the Stark side, and they have no knowledge of who Jon's mother is. Wylla might provide testimony, Howland Reed as well and maybe Ashara if she is still alive. In the case you mentioned, it wouldn't be accepted, as there is nothing said to be special about people of Stark descent like blood of the dragon that allows them to mount dragons. The story usually has a hero prove his heritage through some seemingly impossible feat. Aerys's decree was made before Daenerys was born (she was born after he died), and didn't mention her, it referred only to Viserys. While Rhaenyra had her father's proclamation and will specifically naming her his heir, Daenerys didn't. Tradition and precedent would have the male heir supersede the female heir. While in the case of Viserys I and Rhaenys, and Daena and Viserys II, the female claimant had a stronger claim through primogeniture, the male claimant became king. In this case, it is male claimant having a stronger claim through primogeniture. I think Daenerys would fight Aegon knowing he is fake, as I doubt she would knowingly fight her own late brother's remaining child. Not all are ambitious in the vein of Mace Tyrell. People are interested in some form of legitimacy. That isn't fair, given most Targaryen loyalists don't even know Jon exists. The Northmen would be more likely to believe it coming from Ned's companion, Howland Reed. Reed has no reason to lie. You think the Stark supporters would abandon Ned's nephew who was raised by Ned himself in the North, and supported the fight against the Boltons and aided the Stark heirs? It does sound impossible, I know, but in this series, the impossible can become possible, like hatching stone dragon eggs. Jon will eventually be accepted as king, or what point is there to giving him a secret royal heritage and with plenty of hints and Arthurian references if it isn't going to have a significant impact on the storyline?
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