Mafia Game 73 (Mk. II)

[House Thorne]

Click the post and you'll get a button that says reply. I use that version of the board as well when using my phone.

I will say that it'll be incredibly hard for you to reread stuff if you have to do it from your phone. I wish you luck.

Thanks. :) I've got it working now.

I'll probably head over to my dad's and use his computer, because otherwise this will be torture.

[Lady Gaga]

I'm surprised that Redfort was killed. Before I saw the day scene, I was getting ready to go on the attack against him. Doesn't matter much now, but I really didn't like his reaction to the Karstark lynch. Before leaving the thread, he says he can't make up his mind, but that its okay because he doesn't have to due to the new voting rules. Karstark was a top option at that point, and he doesn't say anything in his defense. Yet later, after Karstark is lynched and comes up innocent, he claims that Karstark was one of the few people who he pegged as innocent. That seemed like a contradiction to me, and I was going to hammer him for it. I also got the impression that he was suspected by a few other people. Seems like a strange choice for the night kill.

I still think he was suspicious - maybe we'll get lucky and he was the symp.

Oh by the way, for what its worth, I do think there's a symp in this game. From what I can remember, mentat favors 2 FM and 1 symp in a 12 person game. That would mean that we only have 2 lynches left before we lose (assuming the worst case scenario where we haven't gotten rid of the symp). Just something to keep in mind.

[Lady Gaga]

I don't like how the end of the day went down. First, there is sentiment to use the extra time to let people read the thread and make an informed decision. Then Tollett posts that he is leaning toward a vote for Inchfield, but he wants to read more before deciding -

From what I've managed to read so far I still prefer Inchfield. But I haven't read the entire thread yet. If we're going to take a bit of time with this I'll try to get as much reading done now as possible.

Then Clegane shows up and says that he doesn't like Karstark. Gives a few reasons, which conclude with -

OK, I'm going to reread Inchfield for good measure, but I think I prefer Karstark because there was nothing I liked in any of his posts and if Inchie is innocent, he's better to keep around.

And 13 minutes later, Clegane decides to vote -

I stand by my decision that I prefer to have Inchie around than Karstark.

I just hope he starts looking at other people.

I don't like how he completely ignored Tollett's stated preference to vote for Inchfield. There should have at least been some discussion there. But instead, Clegane cuts it all off with a rush to vote for Karstark.

Or, more importantly...a rush to not vote for Inchfield? It makes me wonder if Clegane is Inchfield's symp. The only point against that is that Clegane did wait 13 minutes to vote, and if he was Inch's symp, that would have risked a vote from somebody else against Inch during that time period. But aside from that, the fact remains that he seemingly rushed the extra time with his decision. And he might have waited a bit to make his actions more believable.

I also don't like how at the end of his post, Clegane says that he hopes Inch starts to look at other people. Could be a symp telling his FM to back off.

I need to follow this up with a check of Clegane's posts, to make sure he hasn't voted for or attacked Inchfield. That would be a major point against this theory.

As for my tunnel vision, it is what it is. You know all too well about being tunnel visioned as an innocent so it shouldn't really come as a massive surprise to you.

This is a comment from Inchfield to Lannister. Inchfield, how do you know that Lannister is innocent? You make that assumption in your post.

[Lady Gaga]

By the way, I'm not having any problems with the view posts function. Are you guys making sure to filter using the drop down menu on the top right of the Content page? You want it to say 'View all posts by House _____'. Not either of the 'View all topics' options.

[House Dondarrion]

Kettleblack:

First Tollett was already voting me. That means your entire post is wrong.

Second, I was speaking to Lannister the person as I have alt guessed her just as she knows who I am. Obviously I wasn't speaking to her about her play this game as she hasn't been tunnel visioning at all. Quite the opposite; she cant make up her mind.

[House Baratheon]

Well, I am quite confused by Redfort's kill. Evidently, there were better options. Tomorrow I'll need to reread Redfort to remember who were his main suspects. I am too weared now.

If ignoring Redfort's death, Mallister looks like my most perspective suspect. I don't like his vote on Dayne at all. If it was first vote, I won't object, but since my own vote was also on Dayne till the beginning of the day (and I was absent for long), I can easily see this as an a meek attempt to lynch a strong player for doubtful reasons.

Now I am almost sure that Dayne and Clegane (main Redfort's accuser) are both innocent.Inchfied looks worse, because of his tunnel-vision on now innocent Clegane. Need to think more about others.

[House Dondarrion]

By the way, I'm not having any problems with the view posts function. Are you guys making sure to filter using the drop down menu on the top right of the Content page? You want it to say 'View all posts by House _____'. Not either of the 'View all topics' options.

Yes. Check Daynes posts. They are out of order.

[House Dondarrion]

Well, I am quite confused by Redfort's kill. Evidently, there were better options. Tomorrow I'll need to reread Redfort to remember who were his main suspects. I am too weared now.

If ignoring Redfort's death, Mallister looks like my most perspective suspect. I don't like his vote on Dayne at all. If it was first vote, I won't object, but since my own vote was also on Dayne till the beginning of the day (and I was absent for long), I can easily see this as an a meek attempt to lynch a strong player for doubtful reasons.

Now I am almost sure that Dayne and Clegane (main Redfort's accuser) are both innocent.Inchfied looks worse, because of his tunnel-vision on now innocent Clegane. Need to think more about others.

Clegane is innocent because he accused Redfort? How does that work?

[Lady Gaga]

Kettleblack:

First Tollett was already voting me. That means your entire post is wrong.

You have a bad habit of speaking in absolutes. The entire post isn't wrong, just the part about Tollett possibly ending the night. Somebody else still could have ended the night, and the risk of that could have given Clegane motivation to end things first, without any warning that he was going to do so.

Second, I was speaking to Lannister the person as I have alt guessed her just as she knows who I am. Obviously I wasn't speaking to her about her play this game as she hasn't been tunnel visioning at all. Quite the opposite; she cant make up her mind.

That's a dangerous path to walk, for multiple reasons.

[House Baratheon]

Clegane is innocent because he accused Redfort? How does that work?

I can't imagine a killer killing his main suspect. It just doesn't make any sense. He would lose a target to attack... and, well, if you attack a person, you find him lynchable, isn't it? Why would you kill a lynchable person?

One more thing: it's generally first time when I exactly know an identity of a player because of alt slip. Usually I am seeing alt slips too late to associate them with an alt with any sureness.

It's a queer experience; I'll try to ignore this entirely and avoid talking about the player in question.

[Lady Gaga]

Yes. Check Daynes posts. They are out of order.

That sucks. I checked on a few others, and they were fine.

[House Dondarrion]

Kettleblack:

You made a post trying to point to a specific situation. That situation was wrong. If you want to make the point that Clegane was protecting me, fine but it has nothing to do with Tollett. Your threat that triggered Cleganes finality wasn't as immediate as you are making it sound.

But fair enough. In your eyes, Clegane could be protecting me which isn't a massive surprise as he hasn't really posted suspicions against me all game

Royce:

If you read the case then you would note it was based on a line by line paragraph dissection. You would also note that no one joined him. Therefore in his mind, he might not have been lynchable. The original accusation could have been made to be different, not because of any belief in his guilt. The nightkill doesn't clear anyone.

[House Dayne]

Oy! No, this was not me. I am the one who thinks voting is crucially important, and lamented that the rules might make people less inclined to vote.

Oops - sorry. I was another red house, Redfort.

Tollett

Note 2: His attacks on me were not the first. He jumped on after Dayne started the ball rolling. Remember that.

I'll mention it again - Tollett and I were caught in a bit of cross-posting and basically came to the same conclusions at the same time. Check the time stamps and what we chose to comment on and pursue to see that.

Lannister

That’s it. There are no suspicions on anyone else in this game except myself and Karstark yet Karstark’s suspicions, which she even wrote the case for, wasn’t enough to follow up on. It wasn’t enough to even stick with as she just changed her mind with no prompting or explanation. Her thoughts of my innocence, which was quite a lot, were quickly thrown out the window because of a response to Tollett and a vote on Karstark. It looks like she was itching for a reason to switch her vote from Karstark to me as I’m clearly the more dangerous of the two.

To be honest, this is what makes me lean towards an innocent Lannister. I'd expect an FM to cover his tracks a bit, but Lannister shows no real care for this and seems genuine in her actions. It rings true for me because I had dropped Karstark down from second place to most likely innocent without mentioning it on thread. I only posted about it because someone asked me point blank. Lannister seems much more the gut driven type, and I can buy his behavior as believable. (it was a bonus that she voted for you, but it's not because she voted for you)

Lannister is still on my watch list, but not near the top.

Kettleblack

Early on, he harps on Connington for his Africa post. I don’t know why. It was clearly a joke post. I can’t see for the life of me what he could find suspicious about that.

Ironic a bit, that. He's not allowed to pursue a comment he finds weird, but you can run a case into the ground that even the people who think it's somewhat valid don't really support.

I really hope that people are seeing a pattern here. I have firm connections to pretty much everyone. Either they’ve said they like me or hate me. Anyway you look at it; people are being definitive for or against me. That’s more than you can say for anyone else in the game.

Of course we notice it, you keep mentioning it. You use the fact that you have connections to people like it's proof of your innocence. It's not. You were a central figure in yesterday's proceedings, of course people will have opinions on you.

The only two important people in the discussion were Karstark and me. There was no need to reread every post in between as it wouldn't change anything.

This has already been called out, but :bs: Reading a person in isolation can cause some really strange distortions of what's going on. It's helpful and useful for focusing a re-read, but not for making judgements.

One thing that bothers me most is the comment/joke about being the killer.

I don't recall this comment. I may come across it in a re-read, but if you remember when it was, could you link it?

Redfort's death (so sad by the way) has got me thinking about Vance and I think that's someone who could stand to be in the spotlight a bit. After I dropped the symp thing I kind of let him slide, but he needs a re-read.

Vance

[Lady Gaga]

Kettleblack:

You made a post trying to point to a specific situation. That situation was wrong. If you want to make the point that Clegane was protecting me, fine but it has nothing to do with Tollett. Your threat that triggered Cleganes finality didn't exist wasn't as immediate as you are making it sound.

As I said a few posts ago, remove Tollett from the equation and the main point still stands.

[House Clegane]

Firstly: Nothing in how the lynch came together particularly stands out. If Clegane felt Karstark looked more guilty than Inch, he had to hammer asap. If Kar had got back on, he could have voted for Inch himself ending it. So yeah, not voting asap would have been tantamount to voting Inch.

Connington just feels odd. Might be the repalcement thing, but I can't decide what I think about him. It's not particularly good, but I can't really figure out why exactly. I guess he's a prime re-read candidate for me later.

Dayne seems like one of our best players... But I still can't buy that he wasn't symp clue hunting, and that it just jumped out at him forcing him to act. I don't know, I have a niggling feeling that he is evil, but I don't know if I really want to lynch him... If he had played a worse game up til now I'd actually feel a lot better about him.

Agree with this except for the symp clue thing. Your post DID jump at me as it did to Dayne, so I can see his point.

I really hope that people are seeing a pattern here. I have firm connections to pretty much everyone. Either they've said they like me or hate me. Anyway you look at it; people are being definitive for or against me. That's more than you can say for anyone else in the game.

Seeing a pattern, yes. Now,your second statement bothers me. First because I don't think you're the only one most people have expressed opinions about. I think most people expressed opinions on Vance, Dayne and me at least. WARNING : non commital comment coming: And I personally neither like nor hate you (assuming you mean think you are innocent/guilty). Second because I don't know why you feel the need to tell us this now. Yes, 4 people voted for you yesterday. But nobody has attacked you yet today, so why say that now?

I only have a little window to post so this is going to be quick thoughts from the top of my head.

I'm very much liking Inchfield's barrage of daytime posts, and feel vindicated for not voting for him - feeling much better about him already.

I will be rereading Redfort, though he was right up there on my innocent list so his death is not a surprise.

This is a bit of a no-brainer, but Mallister needs a vote - he's shot up above Clegane on my suspect list. He needs to get his act together. It's not just his lack of posts (which in fact is often more of a sign of innocence), but that I have not liked any of them. This is from memory, as I don't have time to do quotes now (will later if they are needed, but he's easy enough to reread): his first post was very conventional fluff and his second was lazily querying some comment. I got the impression of somebody who was desperate to give nothing away whatsoever, and he didn't engage. The he disappeared for a while, leaving me with a bad taste. When he came back he said he would reread the thread, and over an hour passed before he posted again, but when he did post it was a rather unconvincing and not particularly well presented case on Dayne, one of the most active and (in my eyes) most innocent-sounding players in the game.

That's it really - a bit of bad vibes, a lot of non-engagement, and then his case on Dayne which propelled him uo my suspect list. (Because I believe Dayne is innocent, and I don't feel Mallister put a lot of thought into the case, to justify the time he apparently spent reading the thread).

This is just the first step in my campaign against low voters. I agree with the people who attack the tunnel-visioned. It's a safe place for FM and symps to hide, to avoid antagonising too many people and just focus on one. And it's bad for innocents to do this too, since they're a gift to the FM (unless they actually have identified an FM, which isn't that likely this early in the game). So... diversify...

Underlined are mine.

Connington, how is being absent a sign of innocence? It can be an evil technique or a lack of time whatever the person's alignment.

in the second underlined sentence, do you mean poster or voter?

BTW, I'd still like you to tell me why you suspect me.

Please note that there are a few posts missing from her total posts so if you go into the content thingy and view all posts, you'll miss a few. I don't know why that is but I specifically remembered the post where she voted for me yet it wasn't in her view posts. It's possible it was out of order and it's possible I missed more. Hopefully she can point me toward them if I did.

Weird (i-e strange, not suspicious), I didn't notice it. I'll have to be careful.

OK, more busy with work than I expected, and I'm not sure I can post from home tonight. I'll try to get some things done before I leave, should have more time tomorrow.

[House Dondarrion]

Dayne:

So Lannister is most likely innocent and you have no opinion on Tollett, Royce, Clegane or Kettleblack. Glad I spent all the time on those rereads so you could just make one comment on each that basically says nothing (minus your stance on Lannister).

As usual you just post to find faults in what I say. It is incredibly annoying.

[House Targaryen]

Kettleblack:

First Tollett was already voting me. That means your entire post is wrong.

Second, I was speaking to Lannister the person as I have alt guessed her just as she knows who I am. Obviously I wasn't speaking to her about her play this game as she hasn't been tunnel visioning at all. Quite the opposite; she cant make up her mind.

Can we please not make such blantent squirrilly comments. This is supposed to be an Altless game. That means in the game thread you pretend not to know or guess who is behind which alt. Obvioulsy we can't stop you thinking it and stop it effecting your actions but we can all pretend.

Serriously we use Alts for a reason.

Vote count to come soonish.

[House Dondarrion]

Can we please not make such blantent squirrilly comments. This is supposed to be an Altless game. That means in the game thread you pretend not to know or guess who is behind which alt. Obvioulsy we can't stop you thinking it and stop it effecting your actions but we can all pretend.

Serriously we use Alts for a reason.

Vote count to come soonish.

He asked, I answered. Will avoid it in future.

I am heading out for next 6 or so hours.

[House Clegane]

You have a bad habit of speaking in absolutes. The entire post isn't wrong, just the part about Tollett possibly ending the night. Somebody else still could have ended the night, and the risk of that could have given Clegane motivation to end things first, without any warning that he was going to do so.

For what reason should I have waited since I prefered Karstark to Inch?

[Lady Gaga]

For what reason should I have waited since I prefered Karstark to Inch?

In that extra time situation, it would have been better if you stated your intention, invited discussion, and given us an idea of how long you'd wait for responses before casting your vote. People were talking about making use of the extra time, and you ignored that.

You really don't see how your decisive vote establishes the possibility that you were protecting Inchfield?