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What do you think the title means?


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#81 duncanthemedium

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 10:59 AM

It sucks that we'll have to wait a 'long winter' to really find out. I do not believe that the title hearkens to a Stark resurgence. It just means things are gonna get very ugly. See, GRRM has proven that the titles are in many ways purfunctory. AFFC was, well, not entirely about feasting crows (I am taking crows to mean either brothers of the NW/ the 3-eyed variety). ADwD was not entirely about the targs or the 3-dragons. even AGoT was really not really a title fitting much of what happened in the book itself.

I think GRRM will go on at his usualy pace with the story and the title doesn't reflect emphases on certain scenes, or clues us to the contents of the book. Its just a VERY general state of affairs. In that I think it just alludes to 'that which happened in Westeros when THE winter came'. (As in, THAT winter which changed everyone's life etc.).

With regards to a Stark rsurgence. I do not believe we'll ever have one...

#82 Lady Octarina

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 11:47 AM

It sucks that we'll have to wait a 'long winter' to really find out. I do not believe that the title hearkens to a Stark resurgence. It just means things are gonna get very ugly. See, GRRM has proven that the titles are in many ways purfunctory. AFFC was, well, not entirely about feasting crows (I am taking crows to mean either brothers of the NW/ the 3-eyed variety). ADwD was not entirely about the targs or the 3-dragons. even AGoT was really not really a title fitting much of what happened in the book itself.

I think GRRM will go on at his usualy pace with the story and the title doesn't reflect emphases on certain scenes, or clues us to the contents of the book. Its just a VERY general state of affairs. In that I think it just alludes to 'that which happened in Westeros when THE winter came'. (As in, THAT winter which changed everyone's life etc.).

With regards to a Stark rsurgence. I do not believe we'll ever have one...


I mostly agree with you, I think the titles are generally related to what happens throughout the whole series (even ACoK, that seems to be the most "accurate"). Seriously, they could be put in any of the books and it wouldn't make much of a difference (except maybe for TWoW - winter only arrived at the end of ADwD, after all). But I always took AFFC to be related to how the wars had left Westeros in such a state that misery was all around, and only crows were able to feast - from the corpses, I mean...

#83 Fat King Robert

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:03 PM

It sucks that we'll have to wait a 'long winter' to really find out. I do not believe that the title hearkens to a Stark resurgence. It just means things are gonna get very ugly. See, GRRM has proven that the titles are in many ways purfunctory. AFFC was, well, not entirely about feasting crows (I am taking crows to mean either brothers of the NW/ the 3-eyed variety). ADwD was not entirely about the targs or the 3-dragons. even AGoT was really not really a title fitting much of what happened in the book itself.

I think GRRM will go on at his usualy pace with the story and the title doesn't reflect emphases on certain scenes, or clues us to the contents of the book. Its just a VERY general state of affairs. In that I think it just alludes to 'that which happened in Westeros when THE winter came'. (As in, THAT winter which changed everyone's life etc.).

With regards to a Stark rsurgence. I do not believe we'll ever have one...


IMHO, I think that the title AFFC referenced to the political control people were fighting over after the war. After a battle, the crows feasts on the battlefield. Then, when Westeros was kind of unstable (still is) people (like Littlefinger, Cersei) saw the opportunity to gain some political power.
As for ADWD, I thought it was about the Targaryen, not completely, but a lot. Tyrion was seeking Dany, Quentyn as well, Aegon V was revealed, Dany struggling with her own dragons (Drogon in particular) It's shown that Varys is being a Targaryen supporter, Jorah Mormont trying to get back to Dany and redeem himself, Barristan Selmy is further included with Dany. So much is depending on the Targaryen.

And I think there could be a Stark reunion. Perhaps Arya gets a contract (like Jaqen) and travells to Westeros to assassinate someone. Perhaps Sansa leaves Littlefinger (perhaps Dontos is not really dead and comes to save her!....Most likely not...). Jon was killed (maybe) by his fellow brothers, revived by Melissandre, because he died, his watch ended, which means he could leave NW. Rickon could also get involved somehow, Bran as well. Bran could warg into Summer, and meet up with the others (reffering to the starks, not The Others) which would make the others (again, Jon, Sansa etc) wonder if he really is alive.

Yes, perhaps to much thinking, but nonetheless, after seeing how things turned out, Tyrion could be the son of Jon Snow for all we know /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#84 SerBronn

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:12 PM

Yeah but the last book was called a Dance with Dragons and had almost no Dragons in it so you really shouldn't trust the title. It's probably just an oblique reference to winter arriving and the acknowledgement that the shit is going to hit the fan all over the place.


Almost no dragons literally present, but most of the characters' journeys revolved around their presence and whether or not they could win their allegiance.

#85 duncanthemedium

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 06:54 PM

I mostly agree with you, I think the titles are generally related to what happens throughout the whole series (even ACoK, that seems to be the most "accurate"). Seriously, they could be put in any of the books and it wouldn't make much of a difference (except maybe for TWoW - winter only arrived at the end of ADwD, after all). But I always took AFFC to be related to how the wars had left Westeros in such a state that misery was all around, and only crows were able to feast - from the corpses, I mean...


Yes, I agree with your version of the feasting crows actually.

IMHO, I think that the title AFFC referenced to the political control people were fighting over after the war. After a battle, the crows feasts on the battlefield. Then, when Westeros was kind of unstable (still is) people (like Littlefinger, Cersei) saw the opportunity to gain some political power.
As for ADWD, I thought it was about the Targaryen, not completely, but a lot. Tyrion was seeking Dany, Quentyn as well, Aegon V was revealed, Dany struggling with her own dragons (Drogon in particular) It's shown that Varys is being a Targaryen supporter, Jorah Mormont trying to get back to Dany and redeem himself, Barristan Selmy is further included with Dany. So much is depending on the Targaryen.

And I think there could be a Stark reunion. Perhaps Arya gets a contract (like Jaqen) and travells to Westeros to assassinate someone. Perhaps Sansa leaves Littlefinger (perhaps Dontos is not really dead and comes to save her!....Most likely not...). Jon was killed (maybe) by his fellow brothers, revived by Melissandre, because he died, his watch ended, which means he could leave NW. Rickon could also get involved somehow, Bran as well. Bran could warg into Summer, and meet up with the others (reffering to the starks, not The Others) which would make the others (again, Jon, Sansa etc) wonder if he really is alive.

Yes, perhaps to much thinking, but nonetheless, after seeing how things turned out, Tyrion could be the son of Jon Snow for all we know /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />


I don't believe Bran will ever return south. I think he's there to replace Bloodraven for the next century or so. Arya too, I believe is no more a 'Stark' in her essence. I remember GRRM saying in some recent interview that characters like Theon and her have been irreversibly changed by circumstance. So I doubt she will be the Stark version of Asha Greyjoy. She was never a Sansa to begin with...
Rickon is too young to have any real effect on things in this timeline, apart from being used in some way (by Manderly for instance). Jon and Stoneheart are well, not really in any position to be lieges again, I fear. Which leaves us with Sansa. Can't have a reunion all by herself, can she...

#86 Brynden Bloodraven

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 06:55 PM

TWOW obviously refers to winter finally arriving. I assume that this catastrophe will help force many of the disparate factions within Westeros (and most likely Essos, for that matter) to play together or die out.

As for whether the title indicates a resurgence of the Stark family, I do not believe it does. It is telling that the original title of A Dream of Spring was A Time for Wolves. I believe the final book will again pick up the Stark banner and re-plant it firmly in the North (or perhaps KL).

To those looking for the meaning in ADWD, I assume it refers to the courtship/seeking out of Danerys by her many suitors (Hizdahr, Daario, Quentyn, Aegon/Young Griff, Euron, Victarion, and even Tyrion who seeks her though does not intend to marry her).

#87 duncanthemedium

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 07:00 PM

TWOW obviously refers to winter finally arriving. I assume that this catastrophe will help force many of the disparate factions within Westeros (and most likely Essos, for that matter) to play together or die out.

As for whether the title indicates a resurgence of the Stark family, I do not believe it does. It is telling that the original title of A Dream of Spring was A Time for Wolves. I believe the final book will again pick up the Stark banner and re-plant it firmly in the North (or perhaps KL).

To those looking for the meaning in ADWD, I assume it refers to the courtship/seeking out of Danerys by her many suitors (Hizdahr, Daario, Quentyn, Aegon/Young Griff, Euron, Victarion, and even Tyrion who seeks her though does not intend to marry her).


Agreed. As i said in my last post. A lot needs to happen before we can even think of a Stark resurgence. I believe that tWoW will set up the scenario for that to happen in the end.

#88 Fat King Robert

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:52 AM

Yes, I agree with your version of the feasting crows actually.



I don't believe Bran will ever return south. I think he's there to replace Bloodraven for the next century or so. Arya too, I believe is no more a 'Stark' in her essence. I remember GRRM saying in some recent interview that characters like Theon and her have been irreversibly changed by circumstance. So I doubt she will be the Stark version of Asha Greyjoy. She was never a Sansa to begin with...
Rickon is too young to have any real effect on things in this timeline, apart from being used in some way (by Manderly for instance). Jon and Stoneheart are well, not really in any position to be lieges again, I fear. Which leaves us with Sansa. Can't have a reunion all by herself, can she...


I doubt that Lady Stoneheart is considered a Stark anymore. But still, it's still possible for a Stark reunion, though only time (a lot of time) can tell. And I agree with you, Rickon would just be an excuse to legalize Manderlys pie making business: "One McFrey please, with extra Frey in it". Perhaps Stoneheart and Wyman Manderly could start a business together, after all, there is an endless supply of Freys ;P

Random fact: "Stark" is the swedish word for strong:

Swedish: Han är stark.
English: He is strong.

Let's hope the Starks kicks ass in the next books. I don't believe Jon is dead. He is either revived by Melissandre, or he wasn't killed, just wounded.

And to those "TWOW obviously refers to winter arriving" "It's about the winter you morons", sure winter has arrived, but it could mean more than that. ADWD wasn't about dragons dancing, was it? I hope the north begins a terrifying onslaught together with Stannis, destroying the Highgarden (which for the record I fuckin' hate) and other Lannister lovers, except for Tyrion. He is the only Lannister worthy to be alive, perhaps Tommen and Myrcella as well (not to mention Tommens pets!)

#89 GrandPoobah

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 01:55 AM

'The Winds Of Winter' promises to be a lot of things. Firstly, the long awaited (and dreaded if I may add) Winter has finally arrived. And it is going to be a really, really long one.


Well, only one book long, then there's A Dream of Spring.

#90 Ekho

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 03:24 AM

Well, only one book long, then there's A Dream of Spring.


A dream. Not winter is over.

Edited by ManyFacedOne, 26 January 2012 - 03:24 AM.


#91 Marv

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 04:12 AM

I guess it means that the Others and the Winter have arrived in Westeros. And no one is really prepared. So the wind will carry away most of the people like dust.

There are no storages, no food, no animals for hunting, no Army to hold the wall .

If the Others are half as bad as is hinted in old Nan's stories, it would require an intact realm and a joined effort to fight them off. In the shape Westeros is currently in, Winter without the Others seems to be hard to survive. But considering that there will be an undead army growing with everyone frozen or starved, I do not think that a major catastrophy is evitable.

Who would be capable of preventing it?

* Stannis and his men are starving.

* The night watch is a shattered bunch of old men and cripples. The Freefolk swore its allegiance to Jon. But with Jon gone it is unlikely that they will unite to hold the wall.

* The Boltons aren't capable of fighting them off. Flaying people will not impress wights which are already dead.

* Dany is to far away and in no shape to save the day before it is already too late.

* The Armies in the South are likely to destroy each other (Golden Company+ Dorne against Lannister and Tyrell).


I guess A Dream of Spring symbolizes a new beginning after Winter has carried away most of the civilzation in Westeros.

Edited by Marv, 26 January 2012 - 04:31 AM.


#92 the wolf warg

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 11:58 PM

well on the topic of how long it will take grrm has already stated that he moved 4 chapters from adwd to twow i think 1 was for bran one for sansa and idk about the other 2..

concerning the title i take it to mean the starks will be heavily focused in this book just like the targs were with adwd, but i also feal that it has a dual meaning being that we know winter will soon be upon westeros

to the people who think it refers to the others i believe that they wont make a move until winter is fully upon westeros and they can head down south, we know its cold in the capital because its snowing in the kevan lannister epilogue and they keep stating how cold it is but im almost certain they will wait...

and my final topic is just a hope....has grrm said that he wont make more than 7 books i really think he should go to 8-10 and expand on the series alot more it seems like he has way to much to fill out in only two books, i really dont want them to be rushed snd or vague in how certain events unfold

#93 Marv

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 10:50 AM

I agree. Finishing the whole story in two books seems to be a dramatic change of pace. I would love every additional volume as long as I am sure there will be a conclusion to the story in the end.

Taken into account that the original storyline has been planned to have three volumes, I would guess that it's about time that the main conflict of the story is about to begin.
And all hints to the Others as the ultimate enemy of mankind. Anything less would be rather disappointing. Sofar the Others did cause much less havoc than any other villain in the story.

If they do not attack in volume 6 of 7 there is basically not enough time to appear very threatening. If they finally attack, they should be unstoppable at least during TWOW because that is the point about being the ultimate enemy.
Thus, I guess in twow we will see the Others sacking the wall and bringing death and chaos to Westeros.
To achieve a maximum climax to the story. The others must be on the brink of their final victory.

I would further anticipate that is the reason that all characters which seem able to fight them are simply not in position.
From a global few the storyline might be the following:

Politics destroys the Starks which represent the first line of defense against the attacks from the mystical world beyond the wall. (AGoT)

In TWoW Winter comes, the Others attack and human defenses are so weak that nothing seems to be able to stop them.

In the final book, Dany returns as the champion of fire and unites the remaining Westerosi.

Taking Jon out of the story at this point was necessary to make sure that there is nobody who has the skills to defend the wall.
Jon states at the end of ADWD that his war has begun. I think this is a final hint to the others are gathering wights to launch their conquest.
Dany is not in Westeros yet because she will not arrive as the conqueror lusting for political power. I guess, Dany will arrive as the hero of fire to unite the surviving Westerosi for their final conflict.

#94 Lady Octarina

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 05:52 PM

Politics destroys the Starks which represent the first line of defense against the attacks from the mystical world beyond the wall. (AGoT)

In TWoW Winter comes, the Others attack and human defenses are so weak that nothing seems to be able to stop them.


That makes me wonder... Winterfell's walls are still standing, right? If they remain intact or only suffer minor damages when Stannis battles the Boltons, could if be the only refuge in the North against the Others? Because it would only make sense they reach the Neck at least, or south of the Neck, but they can't simply kill off everyone in the North. Since Winterfell was built by Brandon, it probably has some kind of magic protection against them, I believe. But they would be trapped inside its Walls (by "they" I mean probably those who are already in Winterfell, substituting Bolton's troops to Stannis')

#95 Ser Malthred Stark

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 10:10 PM

The three possible things it tell me is: (Not necessarily all at once)

1. A lot of people will die, as Winter is never good for anybody.

2. Either the extinction or rise (Leaning towards this part) of the Starks.

3. The Others will invade.

#96 the wolf warg

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 11:06 PM

winterfell has hot water springs underneath the castle witch makes the walls feal warm/warmer than outside at least so i think if stannis is able to take the castle before the others begin the decent to westeros, (this may explain why asha has called everyone to the wierwood,maybe bran somehow communicated it to her and shes gathering everyone there so he can warn them)they could be safe,so the unbearable cold that occurs when the others are nearby might not affect them they would just have to defend the walls(oil buckets on fire maybe?)winterfell should be safe from the other or at least more so than the other northerners

#97 Blue Rose Direwolf

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:57 PM

I hadn't considered that The Winds of Winter title might refer to a Stark resurgence but now I really hope it does!

Thinking about it, ADwD was predominantly about the Targaryens and AFfC was focused on the Lannisters so it makes sense that in TWoW we finally get back to the Starks.

I refuse to believe that Jon is dead. Mainly because everyone expects him to be dead. It would be the most surprising thing if Jon actually survived. And I also hope that he's not going to survive by being resurrected or by warging into something else. Funnily enough, I hope he survives by good old fashioned MEDICINE. Wouldn't that be a kicker after all the weird Beric and Catelyn zoombies running around?

I heard that GRRM said that Arya had been irreversibly changed by events but that doesn't mean that she is no longer a Stark. Of all the things she cast off in the house of the many-faced-god, the one thing she didn't cast off was Needle - the valyrian steel sword Jon gave her in Winterfell. This shows that despite everything, she retains her love for her brother Jon and Winterfell. I think that this is going to be crucial for what's to come.

I have a feeling that Bran is going to bring his wisdom of the greenseers back to the men of Westeros which will be necessary to fight the Others. He might also use it to help Jon in some way, either by helping Jon understand the Others or communicating to him via the trees or even by healing his wounds. Ah, wouldn't it be wicked if Bran had seen Jon's fated assasination through the trees and sends help?

I have a feeling that Sansa is quietly watching Littlefinger and learning everything he knows about intrigue and politics. And then, when the moment is right, she's going to use it against him. Think about it. Of all the Stark children, she was the one to be left in the midst of the most despotic and power-hungry politicians and she's been learning and slowly understanding how to survive in that atmosphere. She's the only Stark to really know this which makes her crucial to the survival of the Stark family. One thing I remember from AFfC was that she was thinking how all her family are lost to her except Jon and she thought about how sweet it would be to see him even just once. This was surprising because in AGoT she didn't like Jon much because he was a bastard. So the fact that in AFfC she thinks of him with love means that she's learned the meaning of family and feels that he's the only one left she's connected to in the world.

Rickon is the wild card, really, because he was only a baby when all hell broke loose and for the most part he's been without the guidance of either from his parents or his siblings. On top of it he's being taken care of by the wildling Osha so at this point he's almost feral. So it's difficult to know if he's going to be good for the Starks or bad. But then maybe the Starks need a bit of wildness right now. God knows they haven't done well with calm wisdom or noble deeds. And with all the wildlings who are now south of the wall, the Starks need someone who identifies with them and can lead them, especially if Jon stays at the wall.

Edited by Blue Rose Direwolf, 05 February 2012 - 01:04 PM.


#98 m_k

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:50 AM

Winter has finally arrived and winter being the stark time i think it will be the time for the stark. All the stark will come back strong in the open even i think we will see some wonder from sansa. ( wishful thinking /drool.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drool:' /> )

#99 tlowrites

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 07:32 PM

I think the ability to hold off the 'Others' will relate back to Ned's insisting 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell'.

I think a previous poster is right in that there is some kind of magic (blood or otherwise) built into the foundations to be able to tell if the Starks are still there.

#100 towerofjoy

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:34 PM

I like the earlier summary of the book titles. I think Dance was based around "fire" or the Targaryens. I think "ice" is the North in general, which includes winter (literally), the Others, the Wall, the Starks.

I think like Dance was all about Dany and/or people conspiring to align with Dany, TWOW will be about the influence of the North to include the Starks. Here's how I think it will play out:

Jon: developments at the Wall and the imminent battle with the Others
Sansa: the intrigues surrounding the Vale
Arya: both Jeyne Poole's impersonation of her and her own character arc in Braavos
Bran: overseeing past, present and future through his warging with the weirwoods
Rickon: Davos' search for him and Shaggydog on Skagos on behalf of Wyman Manderly and his scheme to crush the Boltons

And for good measure:

Cat and Nymeria: terrorizing the Riverlands and ridding it of a few extraneous Freys and other assorted good-for-nothings still wandering around.