Summer 2012 Re-read - week 2 GoT chapters 12-25

[Dragonstar]

Hope everyone's had a good weekend.

Just kicking this off so we have room to discuss the next few chapters of GoT. Lke others, I'm looking for A couple of themes of discussion points to focus on. Any ideas?

[The Last Reyne]

In ch. 17 Bran 3, Bran has the first of his greendreams. I would like to discuss some of what he saw.

First, he sees his family spread out all over Westeros as well as things across the Narrow Sea.

Were these the first clues that the Starks were going to find trouble and end up scattered all across the Westeros and Essos?

Second, during his dream when sees his father and sisters he sees "shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

The first two shadows I think are obviously Sandor Clegane and Jaime Lannister. But who or what exactly is the third shadow? Was it King Robert and it was foretelling his death? Or was the third shadow King's Landing, and this was foretelling the misery and death his family would find there?

Last, he looks "to Asshai by the shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

Is this telling of Dany's dragons or are there other dragons that will come once Dany goes to Asshai with her three?

[OldManDennis]

Could we put a real quick summary in the First post of these threads? Like "Eddard and Robert discussing the Dany-Drogo marriage to Eddard trying to solve the Arryn murder by talking to Pyrcelle and Littlefinger".

[Crown]

You should add links to the previous weeks re-reads. I'll be joining you guys when you reach Clash, I already finished Thrones yesterday.

[OldManDennis]

I don't know if this has been covered in the forum already, but Tyrion mentions that some of the dragon skulls under King's Landing are 3000 years old. Would the Targaryions be dragging around really old skulls from Valaria to Dragonstone to King's Landing? Especially since they mention that the three that conquered Westeros were the biggest - you would think that the older ones would be even bigger, as the magic was probably already starting to leave the world at that point. A Martain typo?

[GameTheory]

In ch. 17 Bran 3, Bran has the first of his greendreams. I would like to discuss some of what he saw.

First, he sees his family spread out all over Westeros as well as things across the Narrow Sea.

Were these the first clues that the Starks were going to find trouble and end up scattered all across the Westeros and Essos?

Second, during his dream when sees his father and sisters he sees "shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

The first two shadows I think are obviously Sandor Clegane and Jaime Lannister. But who or what exactly is the third shadow? Was it King Robert and it was foretelling his death? Or was the third shadow King's Landing, and this was foretelling the misery and death his family would find there?

Last, he looks "to Asshai by the shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

Is this telling of Dany's dragons or are there other dragons that will come once Dany goes to Asshai with her three?

Hmm it seems many on this reread have not completed all of the books written so far. I'll just touch on Bran's vision of the shadows. The first is of course Sandor Clegane as The Hound, but the second and third become a little more clear as the story progresses. I don't believe Jaime is the second shadow in golden armor, it's more likely someone else that prefers to utilize armor made of bronze discs. And the third shadow indicates a certain character that is gigantic and has, ah, lost his head. I'm not sure how far I should go into this analysis as I don't want to spoil anything.

EDIT: Also, GRRM has stated in SSM that Dany will not be visiting Asshai. It is most likely referring to Dany's dragons, as the dragons eggs came from the Shadow Lands.

[GameTheory]

I don't know if this has been covered in the forum already, but Tyrion mentions that some of the dragon skulls under King's Landing are 3000 years old. Would the Targaryions be dragging around really old skulls from Valaria to Dragonstone to King's Landing? Especially since they mention that the three that conquered Westeros were the biggest - you would think that the older ones would be even bigger, as the magic was probably already starting to leave the world at that point. A Martain typo?

It says 300 years in my book on Kindle. I believe he is referring to the skulls of Balerion and the other original Targ dragons.

[OldManDennis]

Yeah I figured as much. I didn't know authors could stealth edit their books! 300 years makes perfect sense.

Hmm it seems many on this reread have not completed all of the books written so far.

If you haven't read the books, maybe a reread thread isn't for you if you are trying to avoid spoilers?

Similar to the Others, the pacing of the mystery of Jon's origin is off too. It's all over GoT, but then it seems like it mostly disappears. For somebody who doesn't go the forums much, it's really going to be out of left field if JLR is some sort of critical plotline. My first read through the books I was much more concerned with trying to figure out Vary's and Illario's motives then with Jon. And the topic gets dropped. If thousands and thousands of pages later Dany shows up and says "here, nephew, have a dragon!" it would be really weird if I hadn't read this board a little bit.

[The Last Reyne]

Hmm it seems many on this reread have not completed all of the books written so far. I'll just touch on Bran's vision of the shadows. The first is of course Sandor Clegane as The Hound, but the second and third become a little more clear as the story progresses. I don't believe Jaime is the second shadow in golden armor, it's more likely someone else that prefers to utilize armor made of bronze discs. And the third shadow indicates a certain character that is gigantic and has, ah, lost his head. I'm not sure how far I should go into this analysis as I don't want to spoil anything.

EDIT: Also, GRRM has stated in SSM that Dany will not be visiting Asshai. It is most likely referring to Dany's dragons, as the dragons eggs came from the Shadow Lands.

I admit I seem to have missed the bronze disc armor so I am not sure who that is but I think Jaime fits as he wears golden armor and is supposed to be beautiful. I do get your other reference but I'm not sure that I buy the Mountain. The visions of the shadows seem more immediate than that. Like it was the danger waiting at King's Landing which would be the Hound and Jaime and some other danger not the Mountain.

[GameTheory]

Spoilers Ahead:

Here is my interpretation.

Each of the shadows is a character that will die during the series.

The Hound as a character is dead. Even if Sandor Clegane is alive at the Quiet Isle, he is a man that has been forever changed. Therefore his persona of the Hound died the day he was saved, just as the Elder Brother spoke about his own death at the Battle of the Ruby Ford.

Prince Oberyn Martell wears bronze armor, his House's sigil is the sun. Prince Oberyn fought against and was killed by Ser Gregor, which leads me to believe that this quote is referring to him.

The giant of stone is Robert Strong, who in all likelihood is a reanimated version of Ser Gregor. If we take that the head sent to Dorne was Ser Gregor's, it would mean that under Ser Robert Strong's helmet...there is nothing. In the text it is mentioned that Robert Strong never removes his helmet and has taken a "vow of silence" which would make sense if he didn't have a head. Ser Gregor was also poisoned by manticore venom that was thickened by using magic. The venom turned his blood black. If Ser Robert Strong is a headless version of Ser Gregor, it would make sense that there is only black blood beneath the visor. Robert Strong also has a stone fist protruding from his helmet.

A lot of the dreams that occur in AGOT don't come true immediately in that novel, so I don't think this dream requires immediate action either.

[GameTheory]

Yeah I figured as much. I didn't know authors could stealth edit their books! 300 years makes perfect sense.

If you haven't read the books, maybe a reread thread isn't for you if you are trying to avoid spoilers?

Similar to the Others, the pacing of the mystery of Jon's origin is off too. It's all over GoT, but then it seems like it mostly disappears. For somebody who doesn't go the forums much, it's really going to be out of left field if JLR is some sort of critical plotline. My first read through the books I was much more concerned with trying to figure out Vary's and Illario's motives then with Jon. And the topic gets dropped. If thousands and thousands of pages later Dany shows up and says "here, nephew, have a dragon!" it would be really weird if I hadn't read this board a little bit.

I think that's part of the fun with coming to these boards and talking about the theories. There is incredible depth in these books and GRRM doesn't seem to cater to those that have a shallow understanding of the plot. One glaring thing I overlooked was the Frey pie that Lord Manderly serves at Winterfell. It wasn't until I read the forums here that I realized how much I had overlooked in that section. But, with something as important as this, I think he'll provide a direct explanation to readers if/when the time comes to reveal Jon's parentage. I'd expect something along the lines of Howland Reed or the letter Ned gave to Varys recounting the day at the Tower of Joy and the following months.

[OldManDennis]

Here is my interpretation

[....]

A lot of the dreams that occur in AGOT don't come true immediately in that novel, so I don't think this dream requires immediate action either.

While I've read GoT many times, I have not read much of the board. Is this more or less established? If so can you link to where it is put to bed or summarize it? If not I would go with Reyne's interpretation because everything else in the vision is what is happening currently, and not a vision of the future.

I think that's part of the fun with coming to these boards and talking about the theories. There is incredible depth in these books and GRRM doesn't seem to cater to those that have a shallow understanding of the plot. ... But, with something as important as this, I think he'll provide a direct explanation to readers if/when the time comes to reveal Jon's parentage. I'd expect something along the lines of Howland Reed or the letter Ned gave to Varys recounting the day at the Tower of Joy and the following months.

Yeah, I'm not against things going deep. It's more about my opinion that the series has sort of gotten away from GRRM. Remember Crows and Dragons weren't even really supposed to be written, but it seems like he got more involved in the Lannister twins then he intended, and needed to tell their whole story. IMHO that's most of what is throwing off the pacing. You shouldn't need to go to a web board to understand the books, but if there is 25 years between obliquely setting up RLJ and the "here's your dragon nephew", to anybody who isn't following on a web board or who didn't puzzle it out themselves it might seem like a Deus Ex Machina. Also I don't recall that letter, but I guess we will get to that in a couple of weeks.

New content: Man Littlefinger really pushes the Starks at the Lannisters. When I first read it I recall thinking that starting trouble might just be something LF does for fun. But reading it again, he really stirs the pot in a way that might be pretty dangerous for himself. Do we know/suspect that Lysa told him Jon A's suspicions? I forget, what was the factual origin of that dagger?

[dianna1975]

I feel like I'm paying so much closer attention to Littlefinger this time around, and he really is such a manipulator.... I still can't believe Ned trusted him in any way. I know Ned felt alone in the sense that there was no one he could trust in KL, but couldn't he have sent for a Tully, or someone trustworthy that was moderately close by (in comparison to Winterfell, of course) ?

Knowing how things end up by the end of Book 5, it's interesting to try and figure out what things were on purpose and which things were just happy accidents.

[dianna1975]

and my apologies, just realized I'm commenting a bit ahead of the chapters indicated. I'm a little ahead of the re-read schedule and I was responding to the Littlefinger comment. My bad!

[OldManDennis]

Reading that first green dream again a couple of times, and also searching this forum a bit, I'm going to go against the crowd a bit and say that the stone giant is death or fate or something metaphysical like that. Failing that, I go with King Robert, who is a dead man walking by dint of associating with fools cravens and flatterers who are going to kill him at this point no matter what he does. The entire greendream is fully in the present, and nothing else about it is prescient at all. Death is already stalking the Starks, with Lady and Micah down, and Robert is implicated by comission in Lady's death and omission in Micahs. The leading theories on this board are that UnGregor or Littlefinger are the Stone Giant, but at this point neither has moved against the Starks or even met them.

[OldManDennis]

So is this dead then?

[GentlemanBastard]

I'll start rereading GoT this weekend..... I purposefully went backwards in rereading.... granted I came to this forum to confirm my suspiscions and crackpot theories not pick up more... well best laid plans of cheese lords and such....

While I've read GoT many times, I have not read much of the board. Is this more or less established? If so can you link to where it is put to bed or summarize it? If not I would go with Reyne's interpretation because everything else in the vision is what is happening currently, and not a vision of the future.

Yeah, I'm not against things going deep. It's more about my opinion that the series has sort of gotten away from GRRM. Remember Crows and Dragons weren't even really supposed to be written, but it seems like he got more involved in the Lannister twins then he intended, and needed to tell their whole story. IMHO that's most of what is throwing off the pacing. You shouldn't need to go to a web board to understand the books, but if there is 25 years between obliquely setting up RLJ and the "here's your dragon nephew", to anybody who isn't following on a web board or who didn't puzzle it out themselves it might seem like a Deus Ex Machina. Also I don't recall that letter, but I guess we will get to that in a couple of weeks.

New content: Man Littlefinger really pushes the Starks at the Lannisters. When I first read it I recall thinking that starting trouble might just be something LF does for fun. But reading it again, he really stirs the pot in a way that might be pretty dangerous for himself. Do we know/suspect that Lysa told him Jon A's suspicions? I forget, what was the factual origin of that dagger?

1: The Dagger: King Robert's Valyrian Steel dagger stolen by Joffrey and handed to a cat's paw to kill Bran Stark after he overheard Robert in his cups stating the boy was better off dead

2: The Stone Giant: It's definitely got to be the Mountain. He's going to be defending Cercei in a trial by combat. One way or another Robert Strong will be unmasked and when he does... a lot of highborn ladies are probably going to piss themselves (some knats too I suppose)

3: overall if you read this series and re-read it you should realize 1 thing: you could read the published novels 5 times and not realize til the 5th that the plot within a subplot inside a subplot hidden by another subplot hasn't come to fruition. Until Martin finishes the series with the seventh (may the crone light his way) everything is a tossup. Which prophecies are real? Is it literal or figurative? Is Tyriom going to rape Cersei's corpse as it cools whilst juggling her three dead children's skulls while Tysha dances a jig? With prophecy it's very much the same. Dany still hasn't figured out who the three betrayals will be.... personally I say she should stop fretting and trying to sort out which traitor is which and move the damned plot forward... for 2 damned books she's been in the sandbox playing with the damned harpies when she should have just torched them.

Plus there's a chance it's not going to pan out the way the prophet thinks. Ex: Mel says that Renly might smash Stannis' host against the walls of KL... unless she kills him with a shadow. In stead Garlan Tyrell dresses in Renly's armor and does smash Stannis' host against the walls of KL. Was no buts about that one.... it was gonna happen... stupid shadowbitch.

Another Ex: Jojen says the sea will come to winterfall and drown some people. In stead the iron men come and put them to the sword. Jojen was right... figuratively at least.